EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Hi,

I always find it interesting how many people try to twist things and make it 
difficult.  The licencing policies for Spectrasonics and Ilio (as well as most 
other sample manufacturers) do seem quite straight-forward.  Too many people 
try to get cheeky IMHO when these discussions come up.  I'm glad that the 
discussion has remained calm and rational (they don't always).

I would like to comment on Ilio and Spectrasonics as well as ask Eric a 
question.  First off, the products that Ilio and Spectrasonics have produced 
are second to none and world-class.  Considering the extremely high-quality of 
their samples, we are getting a great deal on their CD's.  I do own a few of 
them myself.  I have not had a desire to return any of the CD's I have bought 
from them however, if I was truly unhappy with any set, I'm sure that they 
would deal with it in a reasonable way.  I've only dealt with Mark (Hiskey) and 
his wife Shelley (sp?) before and both were excellent to deal with.  Helped me 
with my needs, explained their products very well without trying to force me to 
buy something that might not be what I needed.  I'm sure that if I was unhappy, 
they would take care of me well.

Anyway, enough of the "sucking up".  Here is a question that I have wondered 
about for a long time but never really took the time to get it answered.  Eric, 
I own the Bass Legends CD in Roland format.  A friend of mine owns the Akai 
version.  Since we both have legit copies of the CD, is it okay for me to make 
a copy of my Roland CD, eliminating the need for him to convert-load his CD 
into his Roland sampler?  I know the licence says that the CD's should not be 
copied but I have made copies of my own CD's as backups for myself in the event 
that the originals become scratched or destroyed in a fire.

Sorry for the long post - I tend to be too "wordy".  Thanks to both Eric and 
Mark for contributing to this thread in a non-threatening way (and also for 
their non-protective tone).

Fernstudio

For example, I have seen that some of the Vitous CD names get translated to
ex:
Vol 001 or vol 002, etc when converted by the EXS 24; instead of the proper
instrument name. Distorted Realities is another one where a lot of the
programming
is lost on translation. And yet we have to pay the same full price as those
getting full functionality for their money.
************
as I remembered, cdXtract convert correctly the REVERSE samples of Distorted
Realities ( ALT function...) , this function is normally a part of the S
samplers series from Roland but cdxtract reverse the sample when the feature
of the roland is used...
someone can confirm that ?

igor

I know this is addressed to Eric, but I'm going to chime in here as well.

The problem of format conversion has been with us for a while. Just a 
couple of years ago we were supporting six different sampler formats, 
Akai, Roland, Emu, Gigasampler, Kurzweil and SampleCell! Even with great 
tools like Translator, this really became a problem for us because we 
were spending more time on the conversions than making the products 
themselves. But as the software samplers started hitting the market, we 
noticed that more and more people were simply buying the Akai versions of 
our products and import loading. Our Akai sales were accelerating while 
all the other formats gradually became less popular. Soon, it became 
obvious that the most efficient way for us to release our products was to 
concentrate on Akai as the de facto format standard.

At the same time, we simplified and refined our programming process, so 
that we relied less on sampler-specific parameters to shape the sound. We 
"imprinted" many of the envelopes, filter settings and tunings in the 
samples themselves, so that the final product would translate well 
regardless of the target platform. We now test our Akai masters on 
various software sampler platforms to make sure the translations are as 
close to perfect as possible.

This is one of the reasons Spectrasonics has begun to create their own 
virtual instruments, so that the sample set comes with a custom-designed 
synth engine, perfectly tailored to the nature of the product. No need to 
worry about conversion at all, simply install and go.

ILIO will be evolving toward this approach as well, but in the mean time 
we've recently released a bunch of libraries in Akai format that work 
great on EXS. We're EXS users ourselves, so we're committed to making 
great libraries that we all can use.

-Mark
ILIO

>I am also enjoying the calm and illuminating tone of this thread (again). 
>And I
>appreciate and value Eric's comments greatly on these issues. They have, 
>over the
>past months help me redefine somewhat my own tiny little moral universe.
>
>One thing bothers me a bit though. We pay a high price for quality 
>sampling CDs
>already layed out and set up in the sampler format of choice for us to be 
>ready to
>use straight off the CD. But what about legitimate EXS 24 owners who have to
>purchase in another format (usually Akai) because of lack of availablity 
>in native
>EXS format? We have to convert to EXS and lose, depending on the CD, 
>sometimes a
>great deal of the functionality that we are paying for when buying these CDs.
>
>For example, I have seen that some of the Vitous CD names get translated 
>to ex:
>Vol 001 or vol 002, etc when converted by the EXS 24; instead of the proper
>instrument name. Distorted Realities is another one where a lot of the 
>programming
>is lost on translation. And yet we have to pay the same full price as those
>getting full functionality for their money.
>
>I don't know what the soloution is, but in principle it bothers me a 
>little to
>have to pay full price and not get full functionality.

Hi All,

I am also enjoying the calm and illuminating tone of this thread (again). And I
appreciate and value Eric's comments greatly on these issues. They have, over the
past months help me redefine somewhat my own tiny little moral universe.

One thing bothers me a bit though. We pay a high price for quality sampling CDs
already layed out and set up in the sampler format of choice for us to be ready to
use straight off the CD. But what about legitimate EXS 24 owners who have to
purchase in another format (usually Akai) because of lack of availablity in native
EXS format? We have to convert to EXS and lose, depending on the CD, sometimes a
great deal of the functionality that we are paying for when buying these CDs.

For example, I have seen that some of the Vitous CD names get translated to ex:
Vol 001 or vol 002, etc when converted by the EXS 24; instead of the proper
instrument name. Distorted Realities is another one where a lot of the programming
is lost on translation. And yet we have to pay the same full price as those
getting full functionality for their money.

I don't know what the soloution is, but in principle it bothers me a little to
have to pay full price and not get full functionality.



--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Thanks for the kind words. Best to email info@... privately 
about these special cases.

-EP

In a message dated 7/23/02 10:19:08 AM, fernstudio@... writes:

>Anyway, enough of the "sucking up".  Here is a question that I have wondered
>
>about for a long time but never really took the time to get it answered.
> Eric, 
>I own the Bass Legends CD in Roland format.  A friend of mine owns the
>Akai 
>version.  Since we both have legit copies of the CD, is it okay for me
>to make 
>a copy of my Roland CD, eliminating the need for him to convert-load his
>CD 
>into his Roland sampler?  I know the licence says that the CD's should
>not be 
>copied but I have made copies of my own CD's as backups for myself in the
>event 
>that the originals become scratched or destroyed in a fire.

We work very closely with Chicken Systems, CD-Xtract and Emagic to make sure 
that the conversion of our discs works the best possible.

-EP

In a message dated 7/23/02 2:33:06 PM, elik@... writes:

>Hi All,
>
>I am also enjoying the calm and illuminating tone of this thread (again).
>And I
>appreciate and value Eric's comments greatly on these issues. They have,
>over the
>past months help me redefine somewhat my own tiny little moral universe.
>
>One thing bothers me a bit though. We pay a high price for quality sampling
>CDs
>already layed out and set up in the sampler format of choice for us to
>be ready to
>use straight off the CD. But what about legitimate EXS 24 owners who have
>to
>purchase in another format (usually Akai) because of lack of availablity
>in native
>EXS format? We have to convert to EXS and lose, depending on the CD, 
sometimes
>a
>great deal of the functionality that we are paying for when buying these
>CDs.
>
>For example, I have seen that some of the Vitous CD names get translated
>to ex:
>Vol 001 or vol 002, etc when converted by the EXS 24; instead of the proper
>instrument name. Distorted Realities is another one where a lot of the
>programming
>is lost on translation. And yet we have to pay the same full price as those
>getting full functionality for their money.
>
>I don't know what the soloution is, but in principle it bothers me a little
>to
>have to pay full price and not get full functionality.
>
>
>
>--
>Eli Krantzberg
>Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
>http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>   exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
> 
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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Mark from ILIO wrote:
>At the same time, we simplified and refined our programming process, so
>that we relied less on sampler-specific parameters to shape the sound. We
>"imprinted" many of the envelopes, filter settings and tunings in the
>samples themselves, so that the final product would translate well
>regardless of the target platform. We now test our Akai masters on
>various software sampler platforms to make sure the translations are as
>close to perfect as possible.
>
>This is one of the reasons Spectrasonics has begun to create their own
>virtual instruments, so that the sample set comes with a custom-designed
>synth engine, perfectly tailored to the nature of the product. No need to
>worry about conversion at all, simply install and go.
>
>ILIO will be evolving toward this approach as well, but in the mean time
>we've recently released a bunch of libraries in Akai format that work
>great on EXS. We're EXS users ourselves, so we're committed to making
>great libraries that we all can use.

That makes lots of sense in this age of virtual instruments. I have a 
drawer full of Spectrasonics & Ilio CD's for Roland S760 (all 
paid-for and legal!). My trusty old S760 seems like a dinosaur 
compared to Stylus and other things to come. I imagine I'll use 
Translator more and more to convert these sounds to EXS24 format.

Thanks for the responses here and specially for the great products.
You folks really ROCK!

Regards - Colin

Mark Hiskey wrote:

> I know this is addressed to Eric, but I'm going to chime in here as well.

I value your input greatly too Mark.

> Soon, it became
> obvious that the most efficient way for us to release our products was to
> concentrate on Akai as the de facto format standard.
>
> At the same time, we simplified and refined our programming process, so
> that we relied less on sampler-specific parameters to shape the sound.

That's great. But there are still lots of older sample CDs on the market, (many
from other companies I realize) that don't translate well and still cost full
price. Another example that comes to mind is the Advanced Orhestra series where
the loop points often don't translate properly.

> We
> "imprinted" many of the envelopes, filter settings and tunings in the
> samples themselves, so that the final product would translate well
> regardless of the target platform. We now test our Akai masters on
> various software sampler platforms to make sure the translations are as
> close to perfect as possible.

Things truely are getting better. I understand that. I guess it's the "legacy"
CDs that are the problem. I guess the problem will eventually go away by
attrition.

>
> This is one of the reasons Spectrasonics has begun to create their own
> virtual instruments, so that the sample set comes with a custom-designed
> synth engine, perfectly tailored to the nature of the product. No need to
> worry about conversion at all, simply install and go.

This truely is an innovative new and fresh approach to the whole situation. I
haven't heard the Spectrasonics softsynths first hand yet, but they look great on
paper, and everyone who uses them speaks highly of them.

>
> ILIO will be evolving toward this approach as well, but in the mean time
> we've recently released a bunch of libraries in Akai format that work
> great on EXS.

That's great. And as I said, I guess attrition and time are the only way to deal
with older libraries that aren't being dealt with in the new paradigm of things
(soft samplers, soft synths, etc.)

Thanks for your input.

--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

> I don't know what the soloution is, but in principle it bothers me a little to
> have to pay full price and not get full functionality.

This is just circumstantial. It's not the developer's fault you don't own an
Akai. You are buying the product with full knowledge that the format you are
buying is not native to your setup. You can choose not to buy it. Most
vendors charge more for sampler kits vs. standard audio disks because of the
the extra work involved in developing the product. They need to get a return
on their investment of time. My feeling is that sample discs are overpriced
across the board. But I am certain that if I were in the developers' shoes,
I would would feel the same as them. I expect that they have done the market
research, know what to expect in terms of a return on their investment of
time, and are familiar with the impact of piracy on their bottom line. I'm
sure it's a case of supply and demand as with anything else. In regard to
your statement, there's nothing they can do to know how you are using their
samples, and frankly it's not their job to know. As a dairy farmer, should I
charge you less for milk if I know you are going to feed it to your cat
instead of using it to dip cookies into like I recommended in my got milk
commercial? Not to belittle cats... I'm just reaching for a quick metaphor.
The point being, I don't care what you do with my milk. I just know how much
it cost me to produce it and I have to make a living from the sale... you
get the idea. -Jer

In a message dated 7/23/02 9:33:57 PM, HELP@... writes:

>As a dairy farmer, should I
>charge you less for milk if I know you are going to feed it to your cat
>instead of using it to dip cookies into like I recommended in my got milk
>commercial? Not to belittle cats... I'm just reaching for a quick metaphor.
>The point being, I don't care what you do with my milk. 

Jer....this HAS to be the funniest sample licensing analogy I have ever 
heard!!!!!!

LOL!!!

-EP

> Jer....this HAS to be the funniest sample licensing analogy I have ever
> heard!!!!!!
> 
> LOL!!!

What can I say... sleep deprivation has its advantages!