EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Please find after a message I post on VSL forum !
VSL is annouced to work with the EXS 24 MK II later this week

Hello Herb

Before to buy VSL I wanted to see it working.

My doubts where true !

Yesterday I had a demo of VSL in Paris with a Giga Sampler PC connected to a
keyboard.
- 1st to say the sounds I heard ( a very few, but they where impressive).
But what I was told and what I have seen disappointed me a lot  :shock:

I own a G4 533 MP 1 GB / 45+85 GB a 75GB ATA Raid 0, one MOTU system
including  a 24i + 2048 MKII + 1296, 3x8X16 Midi ports ; a Radeon 8500 +
2x22" Iiyama ; Logic control .....

On that MAC I can play simultaneous 64 stereo track with 24 reverbs !


I was told :
- You cannot use your MAC
- You need one or 2 PC with gigastudio; one PC costing 7500 Euro (150 GB HD
+ VSL)

What I have seen :
1st you load an instrument and then you must load a performance ! that could
be done in one go !
You must load a performance with each instrument !
You must decide Legato, Repetition or Alternation !
Some sounds are in the performance set some are in the cube set !
I asked to see midi files ! not possible ! that is very strange !

Having to deal with 3 MAC /PC it is not playing music any more it is
directing a chemical factory !

What I would like to see :

Draw a score line like in :
http://vsl.co.at/index?http://vsl.co.at/news/product_news.htm?cmsqflag=1&cms
scheme=ie_mac
Chose an instrument ; and the computer does the rest.

You must rewiew your copy, try to think like a musician not like a computer
user !


Best regards
 
Cyril Blanc
France

CC : 
Logic user list
EXS 24 user list



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

(Sorry to repost the whole thing)

Cyril, it's no secret that these huge libraries require multiple 
machines if you want to do a lot of stuff without bouncing. That's 
why Hans Zimmer has about a dozen Giga machines.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the Mac version just isn't ready yet, 
because there would be no point in them programming that library for 
EXS24 PC when it's about to go down the toilet. And if you need 
multiple machines, it makes a lot more sense to buy $600 PCs than 
$2500 Macs for the purpose!

Finally, I have a hard time complaining about the limits of single 
computers when I hear what the "new sampling" sounds like!






>Please find after a message I post on VSL forum !
>VSL is annouced to work with the EXS 24 MK II later this week
>
>Hello Herb
>
>Before to buy VSL I wanted to see it working.
>
>My doubts where true !
>
>Yesterday I had a demo of VSL in Paris with a Giga Sampler PC connected to a
>keyboard.
>- 1st to say the sounds I heard ( a very few, but they where impressive).
>But what I was told and what I have seen disappointed me a lot  :shock:
>
>I own a G4 533 MP 1 GB / 45+85 GB a 75GB ATA Raid 0, one MOTU system
>including  a 24i + 2048 MKII + 1296, 3x8X16 Midi ports ; a Radeon 8500 +
>2x22" Iiyama ; Logic control .....
>
>On that MAC I can play simultaneous 64 stereo track with 24 reverbs !
>
>
>I was told :
>- You cannot use your MAC
>- You need one or 2 PC with gigastudio; one PC costing 7500 Euro (150 GB HD
>+ VSL)
>
>What I have seen :
>1st you load an instrument and then you must load a performance ! that could
>be done in one go !
>You must load a performance with each instrument !
>You must decide Legato, Repetition or Alternation !
>Some sounds are in the performance set some are in the cube set !
>I asked to see midi files ! not possible ! that is very strange !
>
>Having to deal with 3 MAC /PC it is not playing music any more it is
>directing a chemical factory !
>
>What I would like to see :
>
>Draw a score line like in :
>http://vsl.co.at/index?http://vsl.co.at/news/product_news.htm?cmsqflag=1&cms
>scheme=ie_mac
>Chose an instrument ; and the computer does the rest.
>
>You must rewiew your copy, try to think like a musician not like a computer
>user !
>
>
>Best regards
>
>Cyril Blanc
>France
>
>CC :
>Logic user list
>EXS 24 user list

-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434

On 3/14/03 17:08, "Nick Batzdorf" <recording@...> wrote:

> (Sorry to repost the whole thing)
> 
> Cyril, it's no secret that these huge libraries require multiple
> machines if you want to do a lot of stuff without bouncing. That's
> why Hans Zimmer has about a dozen Giga machines.
> 
> Also, I'm pretty sure that the Mac version just isn't ready yet,
> because there would be no point in them programming that library for
> EXS24 PC when it's about to go down the toilet. And if you need
> multiple machines, it makes a lot more sense to buy $600 PCs than
> $2500 Macs for the purpose!
> 
> Finally, I have a hard time complaining about the limits of single
> computers when I hear what the "new sampling" sounds like!
> 
> Hans Zimmer is rich ! not all musician can afford a dozen giga machine !
> 
We will see, the guy in the shop proposed 2 x 3500 USD PC ! not 2 x 600 USD
PC

The VSL EXS is in the shop next week ! Follow VSL Conference !!!!!!!!!

Also to use a PC for this seem VERY stupid, you do not need XP to run a
Sampler ! you can throw 99 % of the window code to run a sampler.

Also you will have to pay me to buy a PC, I do not want that machine in my
studio !

I would prefer to buy a dedicated sampler ! that does not crash every 15
minutes !

Supit8tracks did some test with it¹s 1.25 GHz MAC and manage to have 270
simultaneous EXS voices, that is enough for an orchestra !

By Monday I should have finish to convert one of my Virtuoso song to use
only EXS 24 with the Akai library, we will see  how much CPU is left !


Best regards
 
Cyril Blanc
France



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cyril Blanc wrote:

>
> We will see, the guy in the shop proposed 2 x 3500 USD PC ! not 2 x 600 USD
> PC
>
> The VSL EXS is in the shop next week ! Follow VSL Conference !!!!!!!!!
>
> Also to use a PC for this seem VERY stupid, you do not need XP to run a
> Sampler ! you can throw 99 % of the window code to run a sampler.


PCs are a commodity -- a proprietary software/hardware solution to duplicate
the necessary functions for a sampler or DAW costs more. All kinds of expensive
scientific instruments contain a PC for exactly this reason. 

>
> Also you will have to pay me to buy a PC, I do not want that machine in my 
> studio !


Personally, you would have to pay me to press little buttons and squint at a
tiny display on a hardware sampler.

>
> I would prefer to buy a dedicated sampler ! that does not crash every 15
> minutes !


Great -- buy an orchestral library that will load into 128/256MB of RAM - no
streaming, no noisy drives seeking away.  

You do not seem to be that cluey about PC's Cyril. Win2000/XP doesn't crash
every 15 minutes.  For example,  I run Logic on a Win2000 Toshiba laptop and in
over 12 months it has never crashed. I am not exaggerating. 

>
> Supit8tracks did some test with it¹s 1.25 GHz MAC and manage to have 270
> simultaneous EXS voices, that is enough for an orchestra !


Lemme see now --  you are going to load 20 - 80 gigs of samples onto a drive
and set up an arrangement for a whole orchestra and then the heads are going to
hunt all over your drive and keep 270 voices streaming happily. Sorry -- I
think this is an unrealistic scheme at this stage of the technology. 

You seem to be dismissing everything that others are telling you about what is
currently required to achieve a full orchestral mockup with sample libraries --
it might involve some disappointment but I think that it is best to be
realistic. 

Stupid8track's demo was with samples from 4 pianos -- the samples are all large
files siting in close proximity on the disk (from his description) -- so in
general you have reasonably short seeks happening. He was also playing the same
few bars over and over. The highest voice counts he reported were with the
large multi disk 10K rpm SCSI system. Try pricing a suitable controller and 4
drives of that spec at your local dealer.

If you want an arrangement with strings, horns, woodwinds, percussion etc with
the samples necessarily spread out all over the drive(s) I think you will be
struggling to get anywhere near that number of voices on available hardware.
You will need to bounce/freeze tracks to complete your arrangement -- and
playing back bounced tracks will, of course, load your drives too. 

>
> By Monday I should have finish to convert one of my Virtuoso song to use
> only EXS 24 with the Akai library, we will see  how much CPU is left !


The limit on just about any fast system would be the hard disk not CPU. You
would get more EXS24 voices with streaming off -- you just wouldn't be able to
use the large libraries. 

Regards,
Murray

Cyril,
 If your using Logic 6,  when ever you run out of cpu, you can 
freeze the track...free up your cpu..add more, freeze it..etc.

 So, cpu is not the issue. And once it's frozen, your not playing 
back the streaming samples anymore. At least, that's my 
understanding of it. (I don't have Logic 6 yet).

The other guys are right, that if you have a wall full of PC giga 
samplers..all midi'd up..and wired to your mac,  you'll have more 
simultaneous capability to stream and playback samples in 
realtime.

but, as far as I know..it has never been impossible to use just 
one machine for both sampler and DAW duties. Even in the past, 
once you reach your limit of cpu,/disk/ram you can bounce the 
tracks to audio...then add more sampler instruments to that.

The problem was..it was a hassle. With the new freeze 
function..it makes this very simple.  As I understand it, you once 
you freeze,  and it frees up the cpu/ram..etc..it still retains your 
original track settings. So, you can "unfreeze it" and just go right 
back to where you were..and make changes, then freeze it again.

The freeze function renders quite quickly. And it makes this 
scenario possible.

The size of the sampled material will make a difference as to 
how many you can run at once.  But, even if you can only run a 
few...you freeze them..add more. 

It also means, your system is portable. You can do this even on 
a laptop. Since your not lugging 2 or 3 giga PC's around with 
you...etc. 

So, I wouldn't worry about it. YOu "do" have options other than to 
buy a PC. 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong..but I believe that once you 
freeze...an EXS instrument...your no longer streaming those 
samples on that track. It frees it up. But, it still retains all the 
settings..you can go back.unfreeze..make 
adjustments..refreeze..etc. 

If that' sthe case..you shouldn't have any trouble doing whatever 
you want to do.

> but, as far as I know..it has never been impossible to use just
 > one machine for both sampler and DAW duties. Even in the past,
 > once you reach your limit of cpu,/disk/ram you can bounce the
 > tracks to audio...then add more sampler instruments to that.

This is exactly what freeze does, only freeze automates the whole 
process, so you don't have to deal with bouncing/adding/muting/hiding 
tracks.  Freeze only makes the process quick and intuitive.

So you are correct, you will not need to stream samples from disk to 
feed a frozen sampler.

 > It also means, your system is portable. You can do this even on
 > a laptop. Since your not lugging 2 or 3 giga PC's around with
 > you...etc.

Well, portable to an extent.  Keep in mind we're talking 6 Gb of samples 
here.  You don't want to have to seek over all of those on a laptop 
drive, for example.  But you are correct, carrying around a few FireWire 
drives is MUCH more portable than toting a bunch of PCs around with you. :)

 > So, I wouldn't worry about it. YOu do have options other than to
 > buy a PC.

I think everyone is getting confused because of the clause "access to 
the entire symphony".  If I understand the funky english of the original 
post, the store clerk said a bank of giga PCs would be needed to have 
access the whole symphony sample set at once.  Clearly, if you only want 
to use one instrument of the VSL pallet, you would only need a computer 
capable of handling the bank of samples for that one instrument.  A mac 
should be able to take that.

Keeping every sample of every instrument ready and waiting for input, 
though?  That's a task that seems to be beyond ANY single computer. 
Seeing as there's no way to use GIGA to wire a multiple macs together 
into one large mega-sampler, you would have to use PCs to follow this path.

Cheers,
-Josh Emmons

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "dcornutt" <dcornutt@n...> wrote:
 As I understand it, you once 
> you freeze,  and it frees up the cpu/ram..

actually, freeze does not free up the RAM and you can't remove the instrument selection from a frozen EXS without unfreezing the track.

to free up RAM in 6, you still need to bounce and remove the instrument.

cheers

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Murray McDowall <murraymc@m...> wrote:

> Lemme see now --  you are going to load 20 - 80 gigs of samples onto a drive
> and set up an arrangement for a whole orchestra and then the heads are going to
> hunt all over your drive and keep 270 voices streaming happily. Sorry -- I
> think this is an unrealistic scheme at this stage of the technology. 

murray

i agree that this is unrealistic, but more because of the RAM limitation in one mac now.  i obviously haven't been able to test EXS with VSL, but from what i've seen, streaming requires about 10% of the RAM of non-streaming.  so, i think at best, you'd be able to load 15 GB worth of samples on one mac (using OS X - which has poorer streaming performance.  in OS 9, i'm figuring 10 GB to be a realistic limit).

i've gotten 278 stereo EXS voices streaming without dropping data using one 15K scsi drive. 

see here for the details:

http://community.sonikmatter.com/emagic/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=25;t=000261

granted, that's with 4 GB of piano samples across 4 instruments - time will tell how more, smaller instruments effect the performance (though i've done a very limited testing with more - see below).  and you'd obviously need enough 15K disk space to hold 100 GB of data.  2 73 GB 15K scsi drives would be $2000, plus $400 for the scsi controller - so this option isn't cheap.  but how many gigastudio set-ups would it take to get even 200 stereo voices playing back at once (assuming a considerable performance drop between my testing and real world results)?

> If you want an arrangement with strings, horns, woodwinds, percussion etc with
> the samples necessarily spread out all over the drive(s) I think you will be
> struggling to get anywhere near that number of voices on available hardware.
> You will need to bounce/freeze tracks to complete your arrangement -- and
> playing back bounced tracks will, of course, load your drives too. 

again, i don't think the voices are going to be as much a problem as the RAM (and therefore the ability to load more instruments).  in fact, with 15K scsi drives, i can stream 278 simultaneous stereo voices across 64 EXS instances, bounce those to 64 separate stereo tracks (on another 15K scsi drive), then load up another 64 EXS instruments and stream 170 simultaneous stereo voices while playing back those 64 stereo tracks.

perhaps this will change with more instruments (and it will surely change with 24 bit samples), but i've added the demo cube instruments to one of these songs and not found any drop in performance - EXS voice performance remained the same.  again, the demo cube doesn't have many instruments, but from what i've seen i wouldn't expect full VSL performance to drop too terribly.

anyway, i'm not trying to suggest that a single mac with EXS will outperform multiple gigastudio machines.  and i agree - you clearly can't currently load up a full orchestra into Mac RAM (perhaps in 6 months - if we're lucky).  but how many gigastudio machines do you need to buy to outperform a fast mac?  i think mac/EXS gives one and two gigastudio set-ups a run - and for some people will be the more comfortable experience.

unfortunately, freeze doesn't help with EXS RAM consumption.

cheers

Me:

>  > (Sorry to repost the whole thing)
>>
>>  Cyril, it's no secret that these huge libraries require multiple
>>  machines if you want to do a lot of stuff without bouncing. That's
>>  why Hans Zimmer has about a dozen Giga machines.
>>
>>  Also, I'm pretty sure that the Mac version just isn't ready yet,
>>  because there would be no point in them programming that library for
>>  EXS24 PC when it's about to go down the toilet. And if you need
>>  multiple machines, it makes a lot more sense to buy $600 PCs than
>>  $2500 Macs for the purpose!
>>
>>  Finally, I have a hard time complaining about the limits of single
>>  computers when I hear what the "new sampling" sounds like!
>>

I think Cyril Blanc <blanc.cyril@...> wrote:

>  > Hans Zimmer is rich ! not all musician can afford a dozen giga machine !

Then we have to live with some bouncing to disk. Right now the best 
way of emulating an orchestra - and many other instruments - is to 
use those huge streaming sample libraries (at least for the bulk of 
the sounds). If you want that, you have to put up with one machine 
not handling the whole thing at once. In the future that'll almost 
certainly change, but right now you need more than one machine.

And I know Cyril Blanc <blanc.cyril@...> wrote:

>We will see, the guy in the shop proposed 2 x 3500 USD PC ! not 2 x 600 USD
>PC

I don't know about European prices, but it would be very hard to 
spend that much on a Windows machine in this country. Even the name 
brand 3 GHz machines aren't that much here. $600 isn't an 
exaggeration, by the way - that's what it costs to put together a 
suitable 2.x GHz Windows machine from components in this country.

>Also to use a PC for this seem VERY stupid, you do not need XP to run a
>Sampler ! you can throw 99 % of the window code to run a sampler.

Maybe, but the cheapest way to get the horsepower you need to run 
soft instruments is to buy a cheap Windows machine. They're commodity 
items due to the economy of scale.

>Also you will have to pay me to buy a PC, I do not want that machine in my
>studio !

Either do I, but I'm considering it very seriously. And I doubt they 
crash all that much if you're only running Giga or EXS (which, by the 
way, requires another copy of Logic!).

Of course, if I do buy one then I'm going to want to use it to 
transfer numbers to my cell phone, which I can't do on the Mac, and 
and and...

>I would prefer to buy a dedicated sampler ! that does not crash every 15
>minutes !

Those machines don't run the large streaming libraries!

>Supit8tracks did some test with it\ufffds 1.25 GHz MAC and manage to have 270
>simultaneous EXS voices, that is enough for an orchestra !

Right, I've had similar results. But those voices weren't streaming 
off the hard drive. That, more than the processor, is the limiting 
factor.
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434

>$600 isn't an
exaggeration, by the way - that's what it costs to put together a
suitable 2.x GHz Windows machine from components in this country.

It's higher if you want quality and don't want to do it yourself.

This is not counting a quality sound card AND quality video card.

Aron

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 3/14/03 22:23, "dcornutt" <dcornutt@...> wrote:

> Cyril,
> If your using Logic 6,  when ever you run out of cpu, you can
> freeze the track...free up your cpu..add more, freeze it..etc.
> 
> YOU ARE ON THE GOOD ROAD, MAN
> 
> Now we have to do some testing to see how many ³instruments² we can play
> without the ³Freeze function².
> 
> The ³Freeze² function is the death of ³the PC GIGASAMPLER²


Best regards
 
Cyril Blanc
France



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>  >$600 isn't an
>exaggeration, by the way - that's what it costs to put together a
>suitable 2.x GHz Windows machine from components in this country.

From: Aron Nelson <abstudio@...>

>It's higher if you want quality and don't want to do it yourself.

A friend of mine is going to get me the list of what Hans Zimmer uses 
in his computers. They cost $500 to put together yourself - from a 
shop in Santa Monica, not the net. Pentium IV, not a Frodgniq 
processor.

How much does it cost to have a machine assembled? I don't know, but 
it can't be all that much.

>This is not counting a quality sound card AND quality video card.

Why do you need a quality video card to load samples? Those are for 
shooting aliens. You do need a monitor, though, or at least a monitor 
switch to use your regular one.

But you're right, you do need a sound card. That's still a far cry 
from $3500, which is what Cyril was quoted. You can also set up four 
of these machines for the price of a comparably powered Mac!
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434