The Logic Off Topic list

> Its really pathetic what happened yesterday. This Saudi Prince comes
> here, visits the WTC, and gives $10 million, and simply hands out a
> leaflet saying the US needs to reconsider its biased view - and he is
> humiliated by having his money returned. Then today on CNN, I heard

As I understand it the issue Giuliani expressed was that the donation with
the press release made it seem the WTC strike was somehow justified,
something I've heard GA and others be rather virulently upset about when
arguments are presented.  In any case, I can see Giuliani's point although I
do think we should reconsider our Israeli policy.

Wilson Zorn wrote:

>As I understand it the issue Giuliani expressed was that the donation with
>the press release made it seem the WTC strike was somehow justified,
>something I've heard GA and others be rather virulently upset about when
>arguments are presented.  In any case, I can see Giuliani's point although I
>do think we should reconsider our Israeli policy.

Question 1) Did you see Prince Alwaleed bin Talal's point?
Question 2) What should the Prince do next?
Question 3) What should Guiliani do next?

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool



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OK, I'll take the bait despite your vibe of "the answer is obvious 
grasshopper"

>Question 1) Did you see Prince Alwaleed bin Talal's point?

I did, but obviously Guiliani didn't. All we need, while we're bombing 
Afgan muslims is to piss of the royal family of Saudi Arabia. Which is no 
big deal unless you own an automobile or plan on flying anywhere. Many of 
us oldtimers remember 'even and odd' gas days and 3 hour waits to buy gas 
the last time the Saudis got pissed at us. Plus, if we have any 
principles at all - like the Enduring Freedom we are fighting for, we 
would make sure the Palestinians even a Taste of Fleeting Freedom.

>Question 2) What should the Prince do next?

Nothing. He did make a statement that the money was for the victims, not 
for Giuliani to play political games with. 

>Question 3) What should Guiliani do next?

Apologize. Try to make amends.


Extra Credit Question : What should Koolmusic do and say?

GA Moore wrote:

>OK, I'll take the bait despite your vibe of "the answer is obvious
>grasshopper"
Actually ... there was no such vibe. My question was directed at Wilson 
Zorn. I already know your position on this matter because you have been 
very clear about it. Unlike me who always somehow seems to fail to be clear.

> >Question 1) Did you see Prince Alwaleed bin Talal's point?
>
>I did, but obviously Guiliani didn't.
As I said, you have already stated your opinion in an earlier email.

> >Question 2) What should the Prince do next?
>
>Nothing.
Agreed. But ... again ... I was curious about what Wilson would say.

> >Question 3) What should Guiliani do next?
>
>Apologize. Try to make amends.

Also agreed. I am wondering, though, if he ever will and if so how long it 
will take.


>Extra Credit Question : What should Koolmusic do and say?
Try his absolute and level best to get along with GA Moore.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Dennis, You are so wrong its not even funny, what kind of sympathy did the
US have before towards the Palestinians "where they fair in the united
nations voting or the security council where all the world have condemned
Israel but the US? Are you implying that they deserve to be killed by
Israeli occupation forces and that supporting a raciest country blindly is
the right thing to do? If so then that is Sharon's official position,
congratulations. I just don¹t wish for you or anyone close to you to be
under occupation and be shelled with US made weapons every night, don¹t
blame it on the Palestinians they are not occupying anybody's home, blame it
on bad and ignorant politics.

> kind of see the point of refusing the money too.  I even think the
> Palestinians do.  In all of this I kind of get the feeling that they
> are actually the big loosers because a lot of sympathy that Americans
> had toward them was destroyed by the perception that the WTC attack
> was done on their behalf and the reaction of some Palestinians to the
> incident was another nail in the coffin.  However Sadat really feels
> in his heart about Americans dying he is definitely not too stupid to
> see the incident as a set back and his public position on the whole
> thing has been very wise IMHO.
> --

At 1:08 AM -0700 10/13/01, Wilson Zorn wrote:
>  > Its really pathetic what happened yesterday. This Saudi Prince comes
>>  here, visits the WTC, and gives $10 million, and simply hands out a
>>  leaflet saying the US needs to reconsider its biased view - and he is
>>  humiliated by having his money returned. Then today on CNN, I heard
>
>As I understand it the issue Giuliani expressed was that the donation with
>the press release made it seem the WTC strike was somehow justified,
>something I've heard GA and others be rather virulently upset about when
>arguments are presented.  In any case, I can see Giuliani's point although I
>do think we should reconsider our Israeli policy.

I kind of see the point of refusing the money too.  I even think the 
Palestinians do.  In all of this I kind of get the feeling that they 
are actually the big loosers because a lot of sympathy that Americans 
had toward them was destroyed by the perception that the WTC attack 
was done on their behalf and the reaction of some Palestinians to the 
incident was another nail in the coffin.  However Sadat really feels 
in his heart about Americans dying he is definitely not too stupid to 
see the incident as a set back and his public position on the whole 
thing has been very wise IMHO.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

> >As I understand it the issue Giuliani expressed was that the donation
with
> >the press release made it seem the WTC strike was somehow justified,
> >something I've heard GA and others be rather virulently upset about when
> >arguments are presented.  In any case, I can see Giuliani's point
although I
> >do think we should reconsider our Israeli policy.
>

Since you asked:

> Question 1) Did you see Prince Alwaleed bin Talal's point?

Yes.

> Question 2) What should the Prince do next?

Campaign for the establishment of Palestine.  As an aside Arafat should
declare an independent Palestine now anyway.

> Question 3) What should Guiliani do next?

Keep doing what he's doing and run again for the Senate.

>
> Kool Musick
> Keep Musick Kool
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> Palestinians do.  In all of this I kind of get the feeling that they
> are actually the big loosers because a lot of sympathy that Americans
> had toward them was destroyed by the perception that the WTC attack
> was done on their behalf and the reaction of some Palestinians to the
> incident was another nail in the coffin.  However Sadat really feels

I don't know, I worry about that, too.  A friend of mine, one who's rather
astute on these matters so I give his opinion a lot of credit, believes that
actually this will force the creation of Palestine and change American
policy as we want/need more Arab allies not only now but will over the next
decade.  I'm less optimistic.

Basharar, I don't think Dennis said this at all, he didn't blame them a bit
and he didn't say they deserved to lose any sympathy.  He said that he fears
what sympathy there was (and there has been some) has been eroded unfairly.

----- Original Message -----
From: "LogicBaby" <basharar@...>
To: "logic ot yahoogroups.com" <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] The Real Cause


Dennis, You are so wrong its not even funny, what kind of sympathy did the
US have before towards the Palestinians "where they fair in the united
nations voting or the security council where all the world have condemned
Israel but the US? Are you implying that they deserve to be killed by
Israeli occupation forces and that supporting a raciest country blindly is
the right thing to do? If so then that is Sharon's official position,
congratulations. I just don\ufffdt wish for you or anyone close to you to be
under occupation and be shelled with US made weapons every night, don\ufffdt
blame it on the Palestinians they are not occupying anybody's home, blame it
on bad and ignorant politics.

> kind of see the point of refusing the money too.  I even think the
> Palestinians do.  In all of this I kind of get the feeling that they
> are actually the big loosers because a lot of sympathy that Americans
> had toward them was destroyed by the perception that the WTC attack
> was done on their behalf and the reaction of some Palestinians to the
> incident was another nail in the coffin.  However Sadat really feels
> in his heart about Americans dying he is definitely not too stupid to
> see the incident as a set back and his public position on the whole
> thing has been very wise IMHO.
> --

At 4:06 PM -0700 10/13/01, Wilson Zorn wrote:
>Basharar, I don't think Dennis said this at all, he didn't blame them a bit
>and he didn't say they deserved to lose any sympathy.  He said that he fears
>what sympathy there was (and there has been some) has been eroded unfairly.

That is indeed exactly what I though I was saying.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

At 1:22 AM +0800 10/14/01, LogicBaby wrote:
>Dennis, You are so wrong its not even funny, what kind of sympathy did the
>US have before towards the Palestinians "where they fair in the united
>nations voting or the security council where all the world have condemned
>Israel but the US?

You claim to know something about the "average American" then you 
should know that the "average American" does feel some sympathy and 
does not particularly approve of Israel's behavior.   Just as at the 
same time the average American does not want to see Israel destroyed. 
So maybe you been making and listening to rude comments about us long 
enough that you have begun to believe we are as wicked and stupid as 
your sarcasm implies.

Saying that I personally am sympathetic does not mean that I think 
everything that all Palestinians do is reasonable though.  Or that 
what the Israelis do is a balanced reaction.  There are reasons for 
their paranoia though.  Like the saying goes "just because I am 
paranoid does not mean that everyone isn't out to get me".  There is 
the reality that they are a small country in the middle of a region 
where every one of their neighbors dislikes their culture and many 
are even philosophically opposed to their existence.  Just because 
the Palestinians are currently on the loosing side of the battle does 
not make them somehow wonderful in all respects or erase the fact 
that a non negligible faction does not want peace with Israel to be 
even remotely possible because they don't want Israel to be possible. 
The average American is at a loss as to how to help Israel to 
continue to exist and at the same time stop them from brutalizing the 
Palestinians.  But I guess us average Americans are just dumb because 
everyone else seems to think that should be easy and we would be able 
to pull it off if we weren't such a bunch of oafs.

My personal feelings are that I would like see the extremists on both 
sides collectively bitch slapped with their holy books by 400 kilo 
gorillas.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Dear Dennis;

Unfortunately, the "Average" American knows so little about the situation in
the middle east, and if he does its a very distorted picture, a picture all
made in Hollywood, CNN and the Jewish lobby "which I even doubt that the
later know the truth, except blindly supporting Israel". Dennis, After the
peace conference in Madrid since the 90s all the Arab countries have
recognized Israel right's for existence in return for occupied lands "lands
for peace", the Palestinians have given up what they consider 80% of
historical Palestine just to have a state and peace. Israeli propaganda made
it seem that its always at war and in danger  so they earn bigger checks
from the US and gain more sympathy from the Jewish community there. I DOUBT
that the average American knows what crimes against humanity Israel commits,
Bulldozing houses while  leaving there owners in the street "because they
don¹t have a permit in there occupied lands, or represent a security risk",
building settlements on Illegal stolen lands and planting them with Russian
and Ethiopians settlers "most of whom are Christians with fake documents"
all with US money, Bulldozing Olive trees that have been there for 1000s of
years "they have killed over 30,000 trees so far" as a form of punishment
for the poor farmers, we call those olive trees "Romanians" because they
have been there since the days of the great Rome.... Any kid at any age can
go to jail and be trailed as an adult because of old British military laws
in effect, Assassinating political leaders with apaches helicopters "what
the media calls polity targeted killings", Bombing civilian areas with F-16
"which is against US export Laws BTW< but Israel can do anything above the
LAW", and last but not least Occupying others lands and making there life
hell for 50 years or so,Dennis I am not asking you to feel sympathy for the
Palestinians, but your tax money is going towards  supporting a secular and
raciest state based upon the Zionist ideology, that  has nothing to do with
the Jewish religion , same that Bin Laden has nothing to do with Islam,
shooting at children is a form of terrorism, military occupation is
terrorism, The Palestinian people have all the right to resist there
occupier just like all the free nations in the world today, so even if you
where brought up to believe "or know" what the "average" man knows, I ask
you to look deep and seek the truth so you knowledge of the world is not so
" average" anymore.

Dennis, I am just saying that you do not represent the average, and if you
think you do then?!!!! WHO IS THE  AVARAGE?! The average knows so little
about the outside world, that is not an attack on Americans or an
anti-American post,  my best friends are Americans and I have nothing but
sympathy towards you and your country "so don¹t try to accuse me of this
labeling please", on the same hand I don¹t agree with your governments
foreign policy and I think the public knows so little about the injustice
outside the boarders. Also you can not Equate the victim with the aggressor,
there are fanatics and fundamentalist growing by the day, what is the CASUE?
As far as the middle east its brutal military occupation and the countries
standing behind/supporting this. So it goes back to a question WHY are
terrorists growing, why are fundamentalists gaining popularity, something
that we need to find answers for.......

> And you 
> are clearly not buying the concept that Palestinians do actually have
> some sympathy from the average American.  That is an unfortunate
> thing for you.

At 4:07 PM +0800 10/14/01, LogicBaby wrote:
>Dear Dennis;
>
>Unfortunately, the "Average" American knows so little about the situation in
>the middle east, and if he does its a very distorted picture, a picture all
>made in Hollywood, CNN and the Jewish lobby "which I even doubt that the
>later know the truth, except blindly supporting Israel". Dennis, After the
>peace conference in Madrid since the 90s all the Arab countries have
>recognized Israel right's for existence in return for occupied lands "lands
>for peace", the Palestinians have given up what they consider 80% of
>historical Palestine just to have a state and peace.

I really do wish you would read what I wrote.   Because you don't 
seem to be getting it all.  I did not say that *all* of Israel's 
neighbors do not want to recognize them.   What I said was "a non 
negligible faction does not want peace with Israel to be even 
remotely possible because they don't want Israel to be possible." 
Regardless of what the leaders want there are those people who don't 
want any Israel just as there are crazy Israelis that want to occupy 
the settlements *no matter what*.  Right?  Or are you going to deny 
that that faction exists as well.  The way it looks from here is that 
as soon as things start moving in a positive direction someone one 
one side or the other starts shooting because there are nuts on both 
sides who are totally unwilling to compromise and will do anything to 
stop it.    What I said quite clearly is that Americans are getting 
tired of Israel's brutality. That is what I said.  If you want  argue 
any of that stuff go ahead but do please take a look at what you are 
responding to.

Ironically if there is any one thing the fanatics on the Jewish side 
benefit from the most it is the actions of the fanatics on the 
Palestinian side.  All I say is until the nuts on both sides are 
reigned in I don't see how there is anything the US can do about it, 
because the closer anyone gets to an agreement the more violent the 
crazies always seem to get be they Palestinian or Jew.

I am not buying the theory that that is Hollywood's fault.  And you 
are clearly not buying the concept that Palestinians do actually have 
some sympathy from the average American.  That is an unfortunate 
thing for you.

-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Who cares? I don't give a rat's ass for any "civilization" who uses
religion and ethnicity as a source for violence and fuck anyone else who
does.

Reading your message you used the words : Jewish, Christians, Arab,
Zionist, Islam.
Seems to me like you are bringing religious views into a geopolitical
event and you offer no solutions [big pet peeve of mine].

If you can't get along with you black or Jewish or yellow neighbors than
that is YOUR problem you need to grow up from. We have laws against hate
crimes in the US that force Americans to embrace each others
differences. I guess I have little respect or any civilization that
can't get their shit together enough to not be racist or elitist in
their religious views.

These guys say holy war so much they sound like a bunch of whiney
bitches. There is nothing holy about war, unless of course you belong to
a religion that preaches hate and killing. And fighting about god in
this day and age makes you look really ignorant and stupid don't you
think?

I personally don't give a shit about palestein or Israel or anything any
of those motherfucks refer to as politics. Religion and government don't
mix. That's a fucking fact! This is the result of what happens when
motherfucks try to mix them. If any of you assholes out there think it
does, war will NEVER cease. Leave people alone and let them have more
moderate views if they want to.

People in jail for teaching Catholicism in Afghanistan??? Barbaric.
Israel getting referred to as "the Jews". Fuck you. Israel is full of
Israelis, asshole.

If these sons of bitches [and I mean every person who's cause revolves
around their version of god] could remove religion from the picture
entirely, they would look just as stupid and ignorant to each other as
they do to every tolerant person on the planet.

Here's an example of tolerance. I don't care if my black gay neighbors
worship Satan. As long as they respect my property and don't cause any
disturbances in the middle of the night whilst I sleep they won't hear
any complaints from me. If they do either, I shall report it to the
police and file a complaint. I know this type of tolerance is hard to
grasp for a lot of you out there in the world but I'm sure you are up to
the challenge. Why don't ya'll try to work out the problems yourselves.
Is it really America's fault for what is happening between Israel and
palestein??

Why were a bunch of different people from different backgrounds and
religions and countries able to come to a new continent and form a
civilization based on these principles over the course of 200 years? It
isn't perfect by any means but it is pretty close.  Those fuckers have
been there since before Jesus and they are still fighting.

Bottom line:

Point the finger at yourselves!



*******
>billy<
_______

-----Original Message-----
From: LogicBaby [mailto:basharar@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 3:08 AM
To: logic ot yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [L-OT] The Real Cause


Dear Dennis;

Unfortunately, the "Average" American knows so little about the
situation in the middle east, and if he does its a very distorted
picture, a picture all made in Hollywood, CNN and the Jewish lobby
"which I even doubt that the later know the truth, except blindly
supporting Israel". Dennis, After the peace conference in Madrid since
the 90s all the Arab countries have recognized Israel right's for
existence in return for occupied lands "lands for peace", the
Palestinians have given up what they consider 80% of historical
Palestine just to have a state and peace. Israeli propaganda made it
seem that its always at war and in danger  so they earn bigger checks
from the US and gain more sympathy from the Jewish community there. I
DOUBT that the average American knows what crimes against humanity
Israel commits, Bulldozing houses while  leaving there owners in the
street "because they don\ufffdt have a permit in there occupied lands, or
represent a security risk", building settlements on Illegal stolen lands
and planting them with Russian and Ethiopians settlers "most of whom are
Christians with fake documents" all with US money, Bulldozing Olive
trees that have been there for 1000s of years "they have killed over
30,000 trees so far" as a form of punishment for the poor farmers, we
call those olive trees "Romanians" because they have been there since
the days of the great Rome.... Any kid at any age can go to jail and be
trailed as an adult because of old British military laws in effect,
Assassinating political leaders with apaches helicopters "what the media
calls polity targeted killings", Bombing civilian areas with F-16 "which
is against US export Laws BTW< but Israel can do anything above the
LAW", and last but not least Occupying others lands and making there
life hell for 50 years or so,Dennis I am not asking you to feel sympathy
for the Palestinians, but your tax money is going towards  supporting a
secular and raciest state based upon the Zionist ideology, that  has
nothing to do with the Jewish religion , same that Bin Laden has nothing
to do with Islam, shooting at children is a form of terrorism, military
occupation is terrorism, The Palestinian people have all the right to
resist there occupier just like all the free nations in the world today,
so even if you where brought up to believe "or know" what the "average"
man knows, I ask you to look deep and seek the truth so you knowledge of
the world is not so " average" anymore.





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>I am not buying the theory that that is Hollywood's fault.  And you 
>are clearly not buying the concept that Palestinians do actually have 
>some sympathy from the average American.  That is an unfortunate 
>thing for you.

I didn't say its Hollywood's fault. However, there is very little footage on 
nightly news of death in Israel except when it the Israelis are hit. In fact, 
if there is a restaurant bombing there might even be news flash interuption 
of tv. On the other hand, equal or greater number of Palestinian rock 
throwers might get machine gunned, and a its a quick footnote on the nightly 
news - usually no photos. We all know how video footage changed the Vietnam 
war - and why there are no journalists with the American troops fighting 
Afganistan. A picture is worth 1000 words.

Palestinians are treated far worse than blacks in South Africa were treated. 
However, that became a popular cause - for example the star studded song "I'm 
Not Gonna Play Sun City" - with U2's Bono and a lot of other top stars. I 
remember all the college kids at American universities protesting their own 
regents for investing in any American or Euro company that even did business 
in South Africa. And there were a few movies which were set in South Africa - 
other than one of the Mel Gibson/Danny Glover Lethal Weapon movies - but the 
bad guys were always the white Africaners. (The opposite of "Exodus" (from 
the 60's), "Navy Seals" and "Delta Force" movies where the Arabs are the bad 
guys.) Another form of bias is more subtle - when an Israeli F16 bombs a 
refugee camp of destitute families in retaliatioin for something they didn't 
do, the US newspapers and tv will report it as bombing "terrorists" or a 
"terrorist base." In the minds of Israelis all Palestianians are terrorists, 
and their leaders often make little comments wishing they could exterminate 
every last one of them.

All of this is strangely absent in the case of the Palestinians. There is no 
well spring of support from musicians, artists, writers, college students, 
intellectuals, the liberals, the editorial writers, the 60 minute reports. In 
fact, I'm amazed that some of the other Americans on this list are as open 
minded as they are.

At 11:00 PM +0800 10/14/01, LogicBaby wrote:
>  > And you
>>  are clearly not buying the concept that Palestinians do actually have
>>  some sympathy from the average American.  That is an unfortunate
>  > thing for you.
>
>Dennis, I am just saying that you do not represent the average, and if you
>think you do then?!!!! WHO IS THE  AVARAGE?!  The average knows so little
>about the outside world, that is not an attack on Americans or an
>anti-American post,  my best friends are Americans and I have nothing but
>sympathy towards you and your country "so don't try to accuse me of this
>labeling please", on the same hand I don't agree with your governments
>foreign policy and I think the public knows so little about the injustice
>outside the boarders.


I can't say I have done a scientific survey but being an American I 
do have more than a few American friends both here in Japan and at 
home so I do kind of have a general feel for what they think.


>Also you can not Equate the victim with the aggressor,
>there are fanatics and fundamentalist growing by the day, what is the CASUE?

Well I *can* say without taking a side that people on both sides 
would make that exact same claim.

>As far as the middle east its brutal military occupation and the countries
>standing behind/supporting this. So it goes back to a question WHY are
>terrorists growing, why are fundamentalists gaining popularity, something
>that we need to find answers for.......

Well the fundamentalism is growing on both sides so I guess that kind 
of rules out the conclusion you want me to jump to.

But if a word could sum up the cause I would vote for the word "fear".

And all of this has nothing to do with my post which was basically 
saying that 1. Americans have more sympathy toward Palestinians than 
you seem to want to think and its a shame that you want to reject 
that idea.  2.  As long as both sides allow the violent 
fundamentalists to act independently of the laws set down by their 
leadership there will never be any peace.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

> Is it really America's fault for what is happening between Israel and
> palestein??

Err.......

Billy Higgins wrote:
> > Is it really America's fault for what is happening between Israel and
> > palestein??

Adam Pendse wrote:
>Err.......

Ummmmm!!

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> 
> Subject: Re:  RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics
> 
>>>> Is it really America's fault for what is happening between Israel and
>>>> palestein??
> 
> A  billion moslems think so - rightly or wrongly. The US recognized
> Israel six minutes after they declared that what was once Palestine was
> now Israel, and the people who had homes and farms there were now
> refugees, so that European immigrants could have a place to practice
> their religion. Without US support Israel would not be able to defend
> itself in an all out war with the Arabs. Also, its doubtful how well
> Israel would do economically. I heard there are more Jewish people in New
> York City than in Israel. So if we dump $4B a year into their economy,
> thats a lot of money for a little country.
> 
> However, if you get at the root cause, it was the Nazi's. Had there been
> no extermination program, Jews would not have felt the urgent need for a
> homeland.

furthermore, it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt's personal prejudice against
Jews which forced them to find a homeland. He sent boatloads of them away
when they tried to immigrate to the US after the holocaust. Had FDR given
the Jews, say, South Dakota, Israel would be again unnecessary. I think FDR
supported Israel so the Jews wouldn't get South Dakota.

go figure.

Teddy Kumpel