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Apology to kool

Apology to kool

2001-10-13 by GAmoore@aol.com

My apologies to Koolmusic for my comments infering drug usage. Some of 
the comments, which I found unfairly insulting to the US, seemed so far 
afield from reality in my view that I wondered if mind altering 
substances were actually involved. However, it was rude to voice this and 
 I should not have made comments which sounded derogatory and kept my 
impressions to myself.


>Soldiers have marched up to my home and placed me 
>under arrest. They imprisoned me and my sisters and my brother and my 
>mother and my father. They were foreigners, too. I was also very interested 
>in the make and model of their guns. That is my reality.

I'm very sorry about that. I don't know where you live or what the 
circumstances were. But I am sure this was quite terrible.

Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-13 by Kool Musick

GA Moore wrote:
>My apologies to Koolmusic for my comments infering drug usage.
Thank you. They are appreciated.

>Some of the comments, which I found unfairly insulting to the US,
And ... which particular comments of mine were those?

>... seemed so far afield from reality in my view
then maybe it's about time you tried amending your view of reality instead 
of always trying to get others to amend theirs.

>that I wondered if mind altering substances were actually involved.
... well ... when someone does not exactly and always agree with you it's 
always a lot easier to insult them and attribute outrageous motives and 
attributes to them. Or ... was I supposed to take your earlier outburst as 
an example of rational debate?

>However, it was rude to voice this
And surely ... equally as rude even and ever to have had such thoughts.

>and I should not have made comments which sounded derogatory and kept my
>impressions to myself.
The impressions are totally erroneous. I have never in my life taken any 
mind-bending drugs. And I never will. Even though it is clearly your 
opinion, and that of a couple of others, that I am in deep need of them.

And ... as for 'comments which sounded derogatory', well if I really have 
made any such to you then I will similarly apologise. You obviously feel 
that there must have been some issued by me. You, for your part, did not 
have search very far to find remarks made to me that could have been 
considered derogatory to me. I, on the other hand, am searching extremely 
hard to find any of mine that were directed at you.

> >Soldiers have marched up to my home and placed me
> >under arrest. They imprisoned me and my sisters and my brother and my
> >mother and my father. They were foreigners, too. I was also very interested
> >in the make and model of their guns. That is my reality.
>
>I'm very sorry about that. I don't know where you live or what the
>circumstances were. But I am sure this was quite terrible.

Yes it is indeed a terrible thing. It happened to me and my family not once 
but twice. At intervals of just over 20 years apart. And both involving 
disputes over exactly who had won an election. This happened to us for 
doing nothing more than trying to establish a democracy. Do not even begin, 
kind Sir, to try and engage me in a debate about who exactly supplied those 
guns.

On the first occasion my family and I were fortunate that my father got 
word and managed to flee the country even as they came to our house for 
otherwise those soldiers would have shot the lot of us out of hand. They 
came 45 minutes after he left and there were such prayers that day that he 
could sneak over the borders way far to the north. His only crime was to 
have been foolish enough to have been elected to the Opposition and to have 
done his job. On the second occasion it was my mother and my sisters they 
got. That second coup had been planned for a while but my father had again 
had to leave the country on short notice, which the coup planners had not 
anticipated. All their plans were in place, however, and they went ahead 
anyway. Me ... I was in a fine university built by the very people who 
supplied those guns and doing a degree course that involved learning about 
peace and brotherhood to man. Let us just say that my father died in very 
mysterious circumstances and leave it at that, OK? That he simply is dead I 
accepted long ago. It took a lot of work but I learned not to be bitter 
about it. He was a most excellent father and I do my best daily to be a 
credit to what he taught me. And ... what he taught me he in his turn 
learned from the ancestors.


As for the perception of reality that I have and that you clearly find so 
disagreeable ... it is formed directly by the fact that I have smelled the 
blood of my fellows running in the streets. Not a nice thing. My perception 
of reality is formed by the fact that I heard bombs falling down all around 
me. I have had my back door shot in by soldiers with machine guns who then 
threatened to kill me if I would not immediately tell them what they wanted 
to know. They shot animals. They shot people. All around me. Arbitrarily. 
Not a nice thing.

And that, kind Sir, is where MY vision of how to conduct one's self in life 
comes from. I have no idea how your perception of reality has been formed. 
But that's where I got mine.



A while ago you told me that the wisest thing to do was to prepare for war. 
So ... I am assuming that you have now done your best to offer me your hand 
in sincere apology and hopefully in at least some semblance of friendship. 
What would you have me do now, then? Reject this and prepare for war?

I must confess, though, that I AM finding a small matter of trust a very 
hard thing to deal with right now. Can't say that I feel like trusting you 
very much right now. Why should I? I have had you insulting me insulting my 
parentage insulting my heritage and accusing me of drug-taking ... and I 
have had Dennis Gunn telling me to shove a thorn bush up my backside. Is 
that the kind of thing you want me to remember of Americans? Or would you 
really rather prefer it if I was gracious enough to set such things aside 
and just move right along to a brave new tomorrow?

I have read many of your emails. Clearly you love books and reading. It may 
come as a surprise to you, but so also do I. You are fortunate enough to 
live in a country where you can take books completely for granted. I come 
from a country where we cannot. To you, it is such a simple thing to go out 
and buy a book ... and not only buy a book, but know that what is between 
its covers is very likely to be truthful. (Setting the odd edition of The 
National Enquirer aside). I have not always had such a luxury.

I do know, though, that people have sacrificed their lives so that books 
containing truth and useful information can exist. Not too long ago a book 
by Salman Rushdie was banned in many places. Why, exactly, do you think 
that was? (A rhetorical question). And last year, or maybe the year before, 
a British author was taken to court for writing a book about Hitler and 
Nazi Germany and the Holocaust full of denials and apologetics and the 
plain misinterpretation of 'historical facts'. But that book was released 
into an environment where people had a very healthy respect for the power 
and sanctity of books. He was taken to court. He lost his case. Where I 
come from ... you can't trust books. And THAT'S when you can find them.

I was fortunate enough to be able to go to several Western (and 
non-Western) countries. And I have studied. I have read an awful lot of 
books. Probably as many as you have at least. We have probably even read 
many of the same books ... although, clearly, we have learned different 
things from them.

Like me, Prince Alwaleed bin Talal was educated in some fine Western 
universities. Mine were in the UK, his in the US. And he read them and he 
studied them. And he was not afraid to look the people who had written 
those books straight in the eye and say: 'I disagree with you on this 
point'. Would you really have it otherwise? What is the point of an 
education if one day a student cannot look at a teacher and say ... 'I'm 
very sorry but I disagree with you on this point'. And ... as Mr. Giuliani 
did to the Prince, so have you done to me. 'I'm very sorry GA Moore but I 
disagree with you on this particular point'. You had better get used to 
such statements because there's an awful lot more people where I come from 
who are going to lift up their heads from their books and say exactly that 
to you. All I can hope is that you will accord to them far better treatment 
than you have seen fit to accord me.

Yes Sir ... I have had soldiers shoot at my house and bombs fall out of the 
sky and seen human body parts flying and I have been mortally afraid for I 
have doubted that I would survive that day. It is not pleasant. Not at all. 
As you have said, it is a terrible thing. I would not wish it on anyone. I 
honestly and sincerely do not wish it on you either, kind Sir.

And what I have learned is that the hand of friendship and understanding 
should always be offered. Clearly, you have learned a different lesson.

Bombs falling out of the sky, though, is a daily reality for a few poor 
souls on this planet. And just look what has happened here in this forum. 
Just a few emails. That's all. Nobody marching upon your home. Nobody 
brandishing a bun at you. And look how you have felt it necessary to 
explode. Imagine what it is like for those who have to live with a lifetime 
of it.



So ... you have now offered me an apology. Well ... excuse me while I be 
just a tad uncharitable and ponder it's sincerity for a while for this is 
certainly an email at considerable variance with those I have seen come in 
from you over the last few weeks. It is possible that you are most sincere. 
But it is my right to judge this for myself ... and most especially so 
given the way in which you have qualified it. It is entirely possible, 
after all, that you have only offered this apology because there is a whole 
email group looking on and you know perfectly well that what you said and 
the way you said it did not make you Look Good ... and you know perfectly 
well it was most absolutely not an example of your much vaunted 'rational 
reasoning'. Probably, that is the only reason you have offered it. You sent 
me a one line private email a couple of days ago, after all, after I had 
remonstrated with you over another matter ... and there was not a HINT of 
an apology in that earlier one. So ... I am rather inclined to believe that 
the fact that this is a public arena is what lies at the bottom of this 
present one. I am perfectly entitled, thank you, to my own vision of 
reality and to my own tortuous brands of rational reasoning.

Probably, though, and in the end, I will come to accept its sincerity. 
However, I am still a bit close right now to the reality of what you said 
and the abuse you hurled at me. Give me a few days, however, and I am sure 
that your sincerity will come shining through. That's the kind of person I 
have tried to make myself to be.

I must say, though, that I am a lot more impressed with a War On Poverty 
and a War With Books and a War With Food than I am with any War On 
Terrorism. Seems to me that -- at least if MY personal life-experience is 
anything to go by -- the latter three kinds of wars are a lot more 
productive of human cooperation and kindness than the last of that group. 
They also overthrow despotic and tyrannical regimes a lot more effectively. 
But then ... what do I know? I am just an ignorant and primitive soul who 
needs a few lessons on shaping up his vision of reality a bit and so that 
he can 'get real' and 'grow up'.

And ... regarding a War With Books ... judging from the strong remarks you 
made earlier about the last US election and who won and who lost and who 
voted for whom, I am sure you will agree with me that there are a fair few 
citizens in the US citizens who would do well to read a few more books and 
have such a War directed at them.

Thank you for your apology, though. I am working very hard on accepting it. 
As I said, it might take me a while but I'll get there.

I do write a lot sometimes. It's just my way of dealing with reality. Nice 
thing about it is ... it doesn't leave trails of blood everywhere. And it 
doesn't make peoples rooves cave in. It just wears my fingers out.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-13 by Kool Musick

Kool Musick wrote:

 > '... Nobody brandishing a bun at you ...'

Now  THERE'S an interesting Freudian slip if ever I saw one!!!

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-13 by GAmoore@aol.com

May I suggest you not look too deeply into this. Its neither a trap nor a 
committment to lifelong friendship. I may agree with you in the future or 
disagree. You don't have to look behind the statement to see what 
possible motive there is. My comments about peace/war were meant between 
countries, not individuals. I simply thought I was a little too sarcastic 
because I couldn't (and still can't) understand what you are trying to 
say at times. You may not know or remember, but i have the one in past 
years to condemn other people calling names and insulting others on the 
LUG list, and I have not responded although I've been called various 
names and threatened (usually in private hate mails). So I violated my 
own code of ethnics, and I feel I owe you a short apology, and an 
agreement to not to it again.

I am sorry for the hardships you've endured and don't wish those on anyone



(...well almost anyone. Anyone who directs people to fly a plane into a 
building might be entitled   to see the business end of JDAM or a Tomahawk)

Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-13 by Wilson Zorn

> doing nothing more than trying to establish a democracy. Do not even
begin,
> kind Sir, to try and engage me in a debate about who exactly supplied
those
> guns.
>

Please don't take this as a debate but a commentary - there are weapons
suppliers from the US who are privately run, the same people who sell our
military guns.  There are also mercenary groups that acquire these weapons
through surreptitious means.  I also don't know which conflict and I don't
blame you for not getting into it.  Nor am I questioning whether the US was
directly involved, and whether that was good or bad.  Just stating for the
record something you may or may not know and I'm sure some people do not
know.  It's also not stated to white-wash anything.  But it is a fact unto
itself.

Kool, would you care to enlighten the list as to why you stay where you are?
I am genuinely curious, I can imagine many motivations but would like to
hear it from you directly.

> that was? (A rhetorical question). And last year, or maybe the year
before,
> a British author was taken to court for writing a book about Hitler and
> Nazi Germany and the Holocaust full of denials and apologetics and the
> plain misinterpretation of 'historical facts'. But that book was released
> into an environment where people had a very healthy respect for the power
> and sanctity of books. He was taken to court. He lost his case. Where I

Can you tell me more about this, the author or book or something?  I'm
interested how he could be taken to court evne if the book was as you say it
was, unless it was specifically libelous to someone.  Regardless, I'm
interested in researching this.

Re: Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-14 by Kool Musick

GA Moore wrote:
>May I suggest you not look too deeply into this. Its neither a trap nor a
>committment to lifelong friendship.
OK. Sorry.

>I may agree with you in the future or disagree.
I look forward to both!!

>My comments about peace/war were meant between countries, not individuals.
I am trying very hard not to say that countries are made of individuals!!!!!!

>I simply thought I was a little too sarcastic
>because I couldn't (and still can't) understand what you are trying to
>say at times.
I shall try to do better.

>You may not know or remember, but i have the one in past
>years to condemn other people calling names and insulting others on the
>LUG list,
Hmmm. You are right. How short memories are! Yes. I remember. And I am sorry.

>So I violated my own code of ethnics,
>and I feel I owe you a short apology,
>and an agreement to not to it again.
Thank you. And likewise.

>I am sorry for the hardships you've endured and don't wish those on anyone
Thank you. They are mostly behind me. Just that from time to time I remember.


>(...well almost anyone. Anyone who directs people to fly a plane into a
>building might be entitled   to see the business end of JDAM or a Tomahawk)
I do understand you.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-14 by Kool Musick

Wilson Zorn wrote:

>Kool, would you care to enlighten the list as to why you stay where you are?
>I am genuinely curious, I can imagine many motivations but would like to
>hear it from you directly.

At this precise moment in time, I am not at home, actually. But ... there 
is an irrational THING inside me that makes me keep returning there. It's 
just that it is beautiful and I deeply love it and I love my family and I 
love my friends and I love how I feel when I am there. Even though not all 
memories are good ones and some things sadden me. Those ones that are not 
good, however, I try to make positive. I hope you can understand such 
things. Most of you seem like the kinds of people who would.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-14 by Kool Musick

Kool Musick wrote:

>And last year, or maybe the year before,
> > a British author was taken to court for writing a book about Hitler and
> > Nazi Germany and the Holocaust full of denials and apologetics and the
> > plain misinterpretation of 'historical facts'. But that book was released
> > into an environment where people had a very healthy respect for the power
> > and sanctity of books. He was taken to court. He lost his case.


Wilson Zorn wrote:
>Can you tell me more about this, the author or book or something?  I'm
>interested how he could be taken to court evne if the book was as you say it
>was, unless it was specifically libelous to someone.  Regardless, I'm
>interested in researching this.

As you can see from the links, I had slightly misremembered. First, the 
British historian David Irving wrote a book denying the Holocaust ... then 
second one Deborah Lipstadt wrote a following book calling him a Holocaust 
denier. Irving then took Lipstadt to court for libel ... and lost his case. 
Dramatically. The judge came down with a most damning indictment. Irving 
then lodged an appeal ... and lost. I believe he may be trying to lodge a 
yet further appeal but am not sure.

You can get the meat of the story from the underneath links to two British 
papers. That should be enough to get you going on any further research you 
might want to do, I think.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/irving/article/0,2763,181053,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/irving/article/0,2763,181049,00.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=84585

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-14 by Dennis Gunn

At 1:44 PM -0700 10/13/01, Kool Musick wrote:
>
>I have had you insulting me insulting my
>parentage insulting my heritage and accusing me of drug-taking ... and I
>have had Dennis Gunn telling me to shove a thorn bush up my backside. Is
>that the kind of thing you want me to remember of Americans? Or would you
>really rather prefer it if I was gracious enough to set such things aside
>and just move right along to a brave new tomorrow?

Although I cannot blame you for your bias a bit of self examination 
might be in order.   I am an average American so is my mother and so 
is my father and so are many of the people I love.  Your comments 
about average Americans are often very directly offensive.  For 
example:

At 5:13 AM -0700 10/13/01, Kool Musick wrote:
>Unfortunately, the kinds of Americans that most people run into are this
>same way in their private lives also. They oscillate disturbingly between
>stunned cows and mad cows with it being extremely difficult to tell which
>of these two is preferable. Would that it was an easy choice to make

And since I am pretty sure you knew that you were being insulting you 
were actually able to figure out my cryptic instructions without me 
even specifying exactly where to put what.  They were not specific as 
a matter of fact I was thinking maybe you might think I meant for you 
to put it in the burrow where the rabbit comes out.

At 5:13 AM -0700 10/13/01, Kool Musick wrote:
>Nothing I have said in this email was intended to be inflammatory

Yeah right.  ;-)


Having said that.  I am truly very sorry to hear about your 
circumstances and especially the loss of your father.

It is worth noting that while chiding us Americans for broad brushing 
issues into black and white you do paint the activities of the 
government your family supported as pure white.  This may well be 
true but it would be unusual if it were.  Politics is generally more 
like having to figure out which of the two demons has shorter horns 
and getting into it is like diving into the sewer to help him.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-14 by Kool Musick

Hmmm. We seem to have had a cross over of emails here. Never mind. Just 
makes life interesting.

Dennis Gunn wrote:

>Your comments
>about average Americans are often very directly offensive.  For
>example:
>
>At 5:13 AM -0700 10/13/01, Kool Musick wrote:
> >Unfortunately, the kinds of Americans that most people run into are this
> >same way in their private lives also. They oscillate disturbingly between
> >stunned cows and mad cows with it being extremely difficult to tell which
> >of these two is preferable. Would that it was an easy choice to make
>
>And since I am pretty sure you knew that you were being insulting
No.
I did not know I was being insulting.
I thought that I was describing a perception that many people -- rightly or 
wrongly -- have about Americans when they have but little opportunity to 
get up close and personal with them. Which it is the way it is with most 
people. That is what I thought I was describing, and it is certainly what I 
was trying to do. I thought that it was apparent. Clearly, it was not and I 
apologise for that.

In any case, I would have thought it supremely obvious, which it apparently 
is not, that I was not describing my own personal opinions or perceptions 
of Americans. Fortunately for me, most of the Americans that I have 
personally met have been a bit more like you. Quite reasonable really. 
There have been a few of other kinds, but I have usually put that down to 
differences in human nature.


>you
>were actually able to figure out my cryptic instructions without me
>even specifying exactly where to put what.  They were not specific as
>a matter of fact I was thinking maybe you might think I meant for you
>to put it in the burrow where the rabbit comes out.
True. It is oh-so-easy to jump to conclusions sometimes.

> >Nothing I have said in this email was intended to be inflammatory
>
>Yeah right.  ;-)

Right indeed. Thank you for understanding it.


>It is worth noting that while chiding us Americans for broad brushing
>issues into black and white
????!!!!!!!!!!!!

>you do paint the activities of the
>government your family supported as pure white.
I was not aware of having painted any such government as white.
All I recall describing was that I was a small boy. And bullets flying past 
my nose. And saying that mostly what I can remember was livestock being 
killed in front of me just for fun ... and a couple of real human beings 
being shot in front of my eyes. And being PETRIFIED. I fail to understand 
how that is painting any government as white. I was just a little boy for 
crying out loud. I didn't understand anything about government policies. I 
just remember the blood of chickens. And humans. You try it some time.

>This may well be
>true
Absolutely no comment.

>but it would be unusual if it were.
Absolutely no comment.

>  Politics is generally more
>like having to figure out which of the two demons has shorter horns
>and getting into it is like diving into the sewer to help him.
Absolutely no comment.


>Having said that.  I am truly very sorry to hear about your
>circumstances and especially the loss of your father.
Sorry? Over demons with short horns who dive in sewers?

>Yeah right.  ;-)

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Apology to kool

2001-10-14 by Dennis Gunn

At 9:05 PM -0700 10/13/01, Kool Musick wrote:
>In any case, I would have thought it supremely obvious, which it apparently
>is not, that I was not describing my own personal opinions or perceptions
>of Americans. Fortunately for me, most of the Americans that I have
>personally met have been a bit more like you. Quite reasonable really.
>There have been a few of other kinds, but I have usually put that down to
>differences in human nature.

Hmmmmm.  Thank you  very much for the personal compliments and I 
guess it was just the mad cow in me that was getting excited so just 
keep those precious mucus membranes intact and go right ahead and 
plant the  holly tree where the bunny lives.



-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

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