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Battle of the Sexes

Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by GAmoore@aol.com

>There are many articles claiming the opposite.  So "I think" this one 
>article of yours might not be a very persuasive argument.
>
>>And in any area where there is a clear difference, there would be clear
>>grounds for a lawsuit and humiliation for the company conducting such
>>practices.

Honestly, have you actually seen an article in Europe showing that in any 
particular line of work, women with the same years of experience, and 
same education get less pay? There may indeed be a few such cases - 
usually a bit murky in some way - like lawyers who earn based on 
performance where men dominate. If you can show me some clear statistics 
about the US or Europe I will stand corrected. 

These overall averages, that I hear about, don't account for these 
differences. We could do similar statistics that show that children are 
discriminated against because they make much less than adults too. People 
in the farm lands are clearly discriminated against too on the same 
basis. 



>Such lawsuits are indeed being conducted ("conducted" -- is that how 
>you say it in English?)

Maybe conduct is not exactly right. I probably should have said that 
lawsuits would be underway at this time. An agrieved party initiates a 
lawsuit, or brings suit against someone. 


>Yes, that's indeed probably part of the story.  Still it's silly that 
>2 people doing the same job get a different salary, solely depending 
>on their degree.  But that's a whole topic in itself, I'm afraid...

That has nothing to do with male/female. I think it does make a huge 
difference - because there are huge differences in the level of 
difficulty and level of learning in different colleges - at least here in 
the US - and i think its the same in Europe. Someone who can go out 
drinking every weekend or every night and barely study and get C's will 
not be as productive worker as someone who went to top universities and 
graduated with honors - even if the same two people had identical talent 
to start with. ... At least this applies to areas where productivity is 
important - such as research or programming. When it comes to people 
skills, such as teaching, then it doesn't matter so much.. and indeed 
teachers are not paid differently depending on the calibre of their 
school, but programmers were when I was doing it.



>>less likely to go into the more competitive job
>>areas, and more likely to take time off for raising children.
>
>Not relevant.  We're talking about men/women in similar jobs.  Not 
>about male executives versus housewives.

Take a lawyer for example. The more years of experience in the area means 
you are familiar with more cases, and have your act together more so you 
can do a better job. Most jobs pay more for more experience. This is very 
rigid in elementary, high school and community college teaching. You get 
about $2000 additional salary for each year of experience on the job that 
you have.


>>On the other hand, men (in the US) contribute a great deal more 
>>around the house, to the kids, to the cooking, to the shopping, etc.
>
>And women contribute a great deal more to the family's bank-account. 
>What's your point?

Sometimes! Women frequently have the option of taking several years of 
break from the working life when they tire of it. Men usually don't have 
that option.


>>And in the dating arena, women still want
>>the guy to pay (depending on the woman) EVEN WITH EQUAL PAY.
>
>In the US maybe.  Not so over here.  And the few that do are the 
>wrong kind of women :-).

Now we're getting somewhere! I can be over this January if you can show 
Kool, Bashar and myself around and introduce us to a couple of women!  ;->


>Which imo is bollocks.  These women most often work there out of free 
>will,  They could have been waitresses or whatever, but being a 
>stripper pays better.  I don't blame them.  Hell, I would maybe do 
>the same if I even remotely had the body for it :-).  Sure beats a 
>teaching-salary.  LOL!

I heard that these women make $50,000 - $200,000 from tips - so pretty 
much tax free. But would you really want the mother of your children to 
know the view from the stage of strip bar?


>These men _choose_ to step into a role of sex-object.  Most likely 
>_they_ don't mind at all -- otherwise they would have found a 
>different job.

I'm not talking about the guys doing it. Hell, for $200,000 I'd be 
shaking my ass too. I'm talking about society. Young girls frequently 
talk about guys in purely physical terms "washboard abs", "cute ass" etc. 
Now, I realize that cute asses where not recently invented, but what 
happened to "cute smile" or "good heart"? I think society is getting 
cheaper - we value physical things more than the really important stuff - 
like how much money a guy has in his pocket (just joking). And its not 
just America - I see a lot of young Asian kids - and its the same thing.


>>Its the same thing with the cold war, every time we think human beings
>>will rise to the occasion, they find new lows unimaginable before.
>
><plop> lose association -- on the news today: UNICEF has warned that 
>in 6 months (or was it weeks?  I think so...) 100.000 children in 
>Afghanistan will die because of malnutrition and the harsh winter. 
>Talking about "lows"...

That is a sad prediction. I heard today that the Northern Alliance has 
taken Mazur E Sharif and has welcomed any UN or other group to bring food 
for anyone in their areas of control. I know the US is also shipping food 
through Iran, to Afgan refugees, and is dropping 40,000 rations on 
Afganistan every night. I think we can all agree that the sooner it ends 
the better. I want the war to stop, and I am not comfortable with my own 
government's casual attitude about taking two years ....,oops I meant "23 
months" to end the bombing. My wish is for a safe and prosperous 
Afganistan for all Afganis, with a representative government committed to 
peace.

Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by Kool Musick

GA Moore wrote:

>Honestly, have you actually seen an article in Europe showing that in any
>particular line of work, women with the same years of experience, and
>same education get less pay? There may indeed be a few such cases -
>usually a bit murky in some way - like lawyers who earn based on
>performance where men dominate. If you can show me some clear statistics
>about the US or Europe I will stand corrected.

Nothing at all definitive ... but ...

The American Association of University Professors:
http://www.aaup.org/Wbellas.htm
http://www.aaup.org/wstudy.htm
http://www.aaup.org/Wrepup.htm
http://www.aaup.org/wlegdoc.htm

The AFL-CIO (American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial 
Organizations)
http://www.aflcio.org/women/eqp_occ.htm
http://www.aflcio.org/women/calculat.htm

"Women in tech (report)"
http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/6764.html

Women and Minorities in Science
http://www.nls.physics.ucsb.edu/~kris/WIS.html
http://www.mills.edu/ACAD_INFO/MCS/SPERTUS/Gender/wom_and_min.html

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 10-11-2001:

>  >There are many articles claiming the opposite.  So "I think" this one
>>article of yours might not be a very persuasive argument.
>>
>>>And in any area where there is a clear difference, there would be clear
>>>grounds for a lawsuit and humiliation for the company conducting such
>>>practices.
>
>Honestly, have you actually seen an article in Europe showing that in any
>particular line of work, women with the same years of experience, and
>same education get less pay?

Yes, quite some time ago (years, not decades).

>If you can show me some clear statistics about the US or Europe I 
>will stand corrected.

I wouldn't be able to rpoduce any specific references.

>  >Yes, that's indeed probably part of the story.  Still it's silly that
>>2 people doing the same job get a different salary, solely depending
>>on their degree.  But that's a whole topic in itself, I'm afraid...
>
>That has nothing to do with male/female.

Except that men still tend to be higher educated than women, as you 
yourself wrote.  For the rest: indeed, it has little bearing on the 
subject.

>  I think it does make a huge
>difference - because there are huge differences in the level of
>difficulty and level of learning in different colleges - at least here in
>the US - and i think its the same in Europe. Someone who can go out
>drinking every weekend or every night and barely study and get C's will
>not be as productive worker as someone who went to top universities and
>graduated with honors - even if the same two people had identical talent
>to start with. ... At least this applies to areas where productivity is
>important - such as research or programming. When it comes to people
>skills, such as teaching, then it doesn't matter so much.. and indeed
>teachers are not paid differently depending on the calibre of their
>school, but programmers were when I was doing it.

People should be paid depending on their job-description and 
possibily on their performance.  Not depending on the diploma's they 
happen to have.  But hey, that's just my opinion.
As for the distinction productivity/people-skills you make; I don't 
agree at all.  If in some lines of work people get paid more when 
they're more productive, then some teachers should also get paid more 
than others.  Some teachers are simply horrible, both socially and 
didactically, while others excel in their profession.  That too is a 
kind of "productivity".

>  >>On the other hand, men (in the US) contribute a great deal more
>>>around the house, to the kids, to the cooking, to the shopping, etc.
>>
>>And women contribute a great deal more to the family's bank-account.
>>What's your point?
>
>Sometimes! Women frequently have the option of taking several years of
>break from the working life when they tire of it. Men usually don't have
>that option.

Maybe this is a typical US-related issue, I don't know, but it all 
doesn't really ring a bell or sound familiar.

>  >>And in the dating arena, women still want
>>>the guy to pay (depending on the woman) EVEN WITH EQUAL PAY.
>>
>>In the US maybe.  Not so over here.  And the few that do are the
>>wrong kind of women :-).
>
>Now we're getting somewhere! I can be over this January if you can show
>Kool, Bashar and myself around and introduce us to a couple of women!  ;->

No problem, you're welcome.  I hope you realise January is mid-winter here.

>  >Which imo is bollocks.  These women most often work there out of free
>>will,  They could have been waitresses or whatever, but being a
>>stripper pays better.  I don't blame them.  Hell, I would maybe do
>>the same if I even remotely had the body for it :-).  Sure beats a
>>teaching-salary.  LOL!
>
>I heard that these women make $50,000 - $200,000 from tips - so pretty
>much tax free. But would you really want the mother of your children to
>know the view from the stage of strip bar?

Ho ho... I didn't say that I particularly fancy the kind of women who 
choose to make money by showing off their bodies.  I jst said that I 
can't blame them,and that it's most often out of free will and 
opportunism thatthey take such jobs.  I.e. they're not really 
exploited in the "feminist" sense.

>  >These men _choose_ to step into a role of sex-object.  Most likely
>>_they_ don't mind at all -- otherwise they would have found a
>>different job.
>
>I'm not talking about the guys doing it. Hell, for $200,000 I'd be
>shaking my ass too.

See, that's what I meant.  But, do you really think _anyone_ would be 
willing to pay serious money to see either of our shaking asses? :-)

>  I'm talking about society. Young girls frequently
>talk about guys in purely physical terms "washboard abs", "cute ass" etc.
>Now, I realize that cute asses where not recently invented, but what
>happened to "cute smile" or "good heart"? I think society is getting
>cheaper - we value physical things more than the really important stuff -
>like how much money a guy has in his pocket (just joking). And its not
>just America - I see a lot of young Asian kids - and its the same thing.

Be very careful not to step in the trap of manyadults, complaining 
that "these modern youth... and in *my* time everything was better 
...".  When I was 18, some 20 years ago, I too was mainly interested 
in good looking girls, getting drunk and getting laid, just as my 
students today are.  Nothing much changed, in essence.  Sure, the 
girl I fancied most was always a _nice_ girl too (or so I thought), 
but that's still true today.  Whenever I have a gorgeous female 
student who happens to be arrogant and irritating, most boys aren't 
interested in her at all -- despite the looks.  So again: nothing 
much changed.

On the other hand, I _do_ share your feeling that society at large is 
getting more superficial in many respects.  This seems to contradict 
what I said in the previous paragraph, I know.  Maybe the catch is in 
the "nothing much changed" -- which is not the same as "nothing 
changed".  E.g. while in a sense (described abobve) modern 
adolescents resemble myself when I was 18, I also think I sport a 
difference.
Example: in "my time" (yuck) a party meant: being together with 
mates, getting drunk slowly, and having "deep" conversations about 
the meaning of life and such (preferably talking with the cutest 
girl, impressing her with your wisdom and then get laid at the end of 
the party :).  Nowadays it seems to mean: go to a place where the 
music is so loud that any conversation is impossible from the onset, 
drink a lot and take a lot of pills that make you more horny 
thanyoualready were, and then get laid at the end of the party.
Same goal, but rather differentn means...

>  ><plop> lose association -- on the news today: UNICEF has warned that
>>in 6 months (or was it weeks?  I think so...) 100.000 children in
>>Afghanistan will die because of malnutrition and the harsh winter.
>>Talking about "lows"...
>
>That is a sad prediction.

Yes it is.

>I know the US is also shipping food through Iran, to Afgan refugees, 
>and is dropping 40,000 rations on Afganistan every night.

Another sad fact: the US used cluster bombs on populated areas (!) 
and some of the small bombs didn't explode.  They were bright yellow. 
The US food packets were... bright yellow as well.  Hence the US now 
has changed the color of the food packets to blue.

War is madness.

>I think we can all agree that the sooner it ends the better. I want 
>the war to stop, and I am not comfortable with my own government's 
>casual attitude about taking two years

Glad to hear that.


tata,
HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by Kool Musick

Hendrik Jan said:

>War is madness.

Yes.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by Wilson Zorn

Just as a side comment, one thing brought vividly to my attention in at
least Bavaria and probably other parts of Europe was just how differently
women are still perceived in the workplace as opposed to America.  In France
(outside Strasbourg) I was in a warehouse with mostly men where they had
several pornographic pictures up and they laughed how in America we couldn't
do that - of course this could have just been staged for my benefit!
Regardless, where I saw more of that was in Germany, specifically in
Bavaria, where at least a couple years ago women were expected to get the
coffee and if they were admin assistants, expected to take care of a
surprising number of personal errands.  (Interestingly in my trips there
this year it seems that's already decreasing).  That plus jokes about women
were much much more commonplace as was the notion that women should be
subservient in the home, in the UK, France, and Germany where I visited.

None of which is to say that it's black and white and America's incredibly
better, but there was clearly a difference in attitude, even compariing
rural small-town America to Bavaria.

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Kool Musick" <koolmusick@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes


> GA Moore wrote:
>
> >Honestly, have you actually seen an article in Europe showing that in any
> >particular line of work, women with the same years of experience, and
> >same education get less pay? There may indeed be a few such cases -
> >usually a bit murky in some way - like lawyers who earn based on
> >performance where men dominate. If you can show me some clear statistics
> >about the US or Europe I will stand corrected.
>
> Nothing at all definitive ... but ...
>
> The American Association of University Professors:
> http://www.aaup.org/Wbellas.htm
> http://www.aaup.org/wstudy.htm
> http://www.aaup.org/Wrepup.htm
> http://www.aaup.org/wlegdoc.htm
>
> The AFL-CIO (American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial
> Organizations)
> http://www.aflcio.org/women/eqp_occ.htm
> http://www.aflcio.org/women/calculat.htm
>
> "Women in tech (report)"
> http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/6764.html
>
> Women and Minorities in Science
> http://www.nls.physics.ucsb.edu/~kris/WIS.html
> http://www.mills.edu/ACAD_INFO/MCS/SPERTUS/Gender/wom_and_min.html
>
> Kool Musick
> Keep Musick Kool
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of Wilson Zorn, 11-11-2001:

>In France (outside Strasbourg) I was in a warehouse with mostly men 
>where they had several pornographic pictures up and they laughed how 
>in America we couldn't do that - of course this could have just been 
>staged for my benefit!

Well, knowing you I'd say: undoubtedly so :-).

Ah, shit, what am I saying?  I don't know you at all...

:-)

>Regardless, where I saw more of that was in Germany, specifically in
>Bavaria, where at least a couple years ago women were expected to get the
>coffee and if they were admin assistants, expected to take care of a
>surprising number of personal errands.  (Interestingly in my trips there
>this year it seems that's already decreasing).  That plus jokes about women
>were much much more commonplace as was the notion that women should be
>subservient in the home, in the UK, France, and Germany where I visited.

A most curious state of affairs...  I don't know how well I know my 
own country, but I have the strong impression that things like that 
are completely out of the question here.  I don't know about the 
jokes, but the getting-coffee stuff & such most certainly isn't the 
case over here.

But then... <insert load of jokes about Germans v.s Dutch>  Etc, etc.  :-)


tata,
HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by GAmoore@aol.com

>As for the distinction productivity/people-skills you make; I don't 
>agree at all.  If in some lines of work people get paid more when 
>they're more productive, then some teachers should also get paid more 
>than others.  Some teachers are simply horrible, both socially and 
>didactically, while others excel in their profession.  That too is a 
>kind of "productivity".

Would you measure teachers by how many students pass? Then the easiest 
teachers win. Would you measure them by what percentage of their students 
pass the next class? Then the hardest teachers win.


>Ho ho... I didn't say that I particularly fancy the kind of women who 
>choose to make money by showing off their bodies.  I jst said that I 
>can't blame them,and that it's most often out of free will and 
>opportunism thatthey take such jobs.  I.e. they're not really 
>exploited in the "feminist" sense.

Well at least they are well paid for their exploitation.

Re: Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 11-11-2001:

>  >As for the distinction productivity/people-skills you make; I don't
>>agree at all.  If in some lines of work people get paid more when
>>they're more productive, then some teachers should also get paid more
>>than others.  Some teachers are simply horrible, both socially and
>>didactically, while others excel in their profession.  That too is a
>>kind of "productivity".
>
>Would you measure teachers by how many students pass? Then the easiest
>teachers win. Would you measure them by what percentage of their students
>pass the next class? Then the hardest teachers win.

Hey, I didn't say I have the ultimate solution or whatever.  I just 
contested your statement that in productivity-stuff people could get 
paid more when being more productive, while in e.g. education such 
issues should be... well, no issue :-).  I said that a similar 
productivity-like claim could be made for education as well.  How to 
measure education, well, that's for others to solve.  I should go to 
bed now :-).

tata,
HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: Re: Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-11 by GAmoore@aol.com

> I should go to 
>bed now :-).

Based on your comments, I can tell you like both sleep and sex. These 
will lead you to opening a strip bar featuring Russian women who will 
recite mathematical quotations as they go about their work. You probably 
suffer from occasional tiredness, occasional bouts of hunger, the daily 
need to urinate, and strange compulsion to breathe at least once a 
minute. You've revealed too much of yourself!

Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-12 by Kool Musick

Wison Zorn wrote:

>Just as a side comment, one thing brought vividly to my attention in at
>least Bavaria and probably other parts of Europe was just how differently
>women are still perceived in the workplace as opposed to America.
<snip>
>That plus jokes about women
>were much much more commonplace as was the notion that women should be
>subservient in the home, in the UK, France, and Germany where I visited.

Don't know where in the UK you went to, to be honest. Yes ... there's some, 
I guess. There's a few aristocratic types, I guess, who rabbit on about 
'REAL femininity' by which they mean they want their women to faint and 
swoon and do nothing more than look like wallflowers on their arm, but 
they're pretty much a travesty. And then I guess there's maybe a few 
working-class types who are inclined to pretty much lock their women up in 
the house and not let them out, but I think they'd get beaten up pretty 
quickly by the girl's mother.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-12 by Wilson Zorn

We're not talking about aristocratic types.  Besides which, I don't know
what circles you've run in but I've found working class folks to have just
as many issue with sexism as upper class.

I was in Manchester when in the UK, or rather just north of there.  Mixture
of folks, working and upper middle.  Mostly the "typical" sexism, the women
deal with the men brawling who complain about the women bitching, etc.  It
was like some areas of the US, just a bit exaggerated I'd say.

> Don't know where in the UK you went to, to be honest. Yes ... there's
some,

Re: Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-12 by GAmoore@aol.com

>>That plus jokes about women
>>were much much more commonplace as was the notion that women should be
>>subservient in the home, in the UK, France, and Germany where I visited.
>
>Don't know where in the UK you went to, to be honest. Yes ... there's some, 
>I guess. 

I heard from some female friends that British guys are somewhat sexist. 
However, Madonna didn't seem to think so. She doesn't seem the sort to 
take one tiny ounce of crap from anyone.

I always think of Europe as so liberal and ahead of the curve in social 
issues, is it mainly Norway, Sweden, Holland, and France? I know they 
elect strippers in Italy. 

Thing have changed a lot in the US - ever since Clarence Thomas you can't 
say "Is that a pubic hair on your coke can" - no really, you say can't 
any kind of such shit in the workplace at all in the US. You have to be 
careful even of saying "you look nice today." 

What is interesting is how they define sexual harrasment for college 
professors at one major university in California. If a professor and 
student date by mutual consent, its alright. However, if anyone objects 
to it, then its sexual harassment. I think this means a third party not 
involved could lodge a complaint. And also, there is the danger that when 
the relationship turns sour, the student could cause a lot of trouble if 
mean spirited.

Re: Re: Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-12 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 11-11-2001:

>  > I should go to bed now :-).
>
>Based on your comments, I can tell you like both sleep and sex. These
>will lead you to opening a strip bar featuring Russian women who will
>recite mathematical quotations as they go about their work. You probably
>suffer from occasional tiredness, occasional bouts of hunger, the daily
>need to urinate, and strange compulsion to breathe at least once a
>minute. You've revealed too much of yourself!

:-)))  Ok, I guess I had that coming :-).

-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: Re: [L-OT] Battle of the Sexes

2001-11-12 by Dennis Gunn

>  >>That plus jokes about women
>>>were much much more commonplace as was the notion that women should be
>>>subservient in the home, in the UK, France, and Germany where I visited.
>>
>>Don't know where in the UK you went to, to be honest. Yes ... there's some,
>  >I guess. I heard from some female friends that British guys are 
>somewhat sexist. However, Madonna didn't seem to think so.

>She doesn't seem the sort to
>take one tiny ounce of crap from anyone.

Maybe she is the kind of person who is intelligent enough to deal 
with people on her own terms and for who they are and what they 
really mean rather than retreating behind some slippery social 
yardstick that changes shape and dimension with the wind and 
temperature.  She has never been too shy about exploiting sex.


>I always think of Europe as so liberal and ahead of the curve in social
>issues, is it mainly Norway, Sweden, Holland, and France?

That's how they think of themselves anyway.

>I know they elect strippers in Italy.

I have no doubt that a stripper is any less or more qualified to be a 
politician than anyone else but the case I believe you are referring 
to is Cicculina (sp?) and I think she was more of a "none of the 
above" cantidate than anything else.


>Thing have changed a lot in the US - ever since Clarence Thomas you can't
>say "Is that a pubic hair on your coke can" - no really, you say can't
>any kind of such shit in the workplace at all in the US. You have to be
>careful even of saying "you look nice today."
>
>What is interesting is how they define sexual harrasment for college
>professors at one major university in California. If a professor and
>student date by mutual consent, its alright. However, if anyone objects
>to it, then its sexual harassment. I think this means a third party not
>involved could lodge a complaint. And also, there is the danger that when
>the relationship turns sour, the student could cause a lot of trouble if
>mean spirited.

I will probably be crucified for saying it but I think the whole 
issue has gone so over the top in the US that it does nothing but 
damage to all parties.  It does not matter what side you are on 
trying to legislate morality will produce nothing but insincerity and 
resentment.


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