The Logic Off Topic list

Hey buddy, I have seen your posts, you been caught with pants down.  Don't
try a play that whiner shit with me.  You have bitched and moaned way more
than I.  Yah, freakin' Poser.

>Yes that is a lot but you want it and feel it is worth the price or 
>you don't.  It really has been ages since e-magic has done a paid 
>upgrade.

Yeah, looking like it is not worth it...buuuuhhhuuuddy!  And maybe one day
you'll see that too.  Maybe 249.00 fine...But 399.00, hey that is pure crap.
 I am surprised you can't see that.  And will you stop it with "has not done
Paid Upgrades in Ages".  Most of the updates were fixes...and because
version 4 was so fucked up, they literally owed people something.  I am
virtually surprised that you can't see that...Knock, knock, lights are on,
but no ones home.  Many companies have given up free Upgrades, just because
they knew they knew a people had a negative experience.

>There are advantages to the 5.0 release and there will be more in the 
>unpaid sub releases.  You know the drill.

Yah, more bugs, and FREE UPDATES to make up for the shotty work...LOL

>
>Tired of what? Bugs?  Sure. 

> I'm also tired of telephone marketers,

Don't answer the phone...screen your calls.  See, you're showing your
ignorance already...LOL.
 
>mosquitos,

Get screens and eat garlic.

>rent,

Who isn't?  That is why, when I buy software, I want it to work good.  There
are other things in the world to worry about short of tossing your money out
the window...you just said it.  So why should any one suffer more.  Oh, but
wait, you are masochist, to which in reading most of your past posts.  You
rather enjoy this don't you...beating your head against the monitor.  This
is fashionable to you...You know, you should come to LA, we have many clubs
that cater to your kind of thinking.  You'd love it and least that way,
maybe able to you'll find someone that may "put out" a pity f*ck.

>dates that won't "put out" 

Well if YOU can't see a person and make an assessments that they will or
will not put out.  That is not my problem dude.  Get a Prostitute...the
pricing structure is about the same.  But I can immediately tell whether I
should call a "person" or not.  Just based on body movement and how their
eyes react.  So, I usually know right away, who is going to put out and who
is not. It is pretty easy to tell, if you are one who uses your brain.

>and all the rest 
>humanities plagues but that's the way it goes.

Only if people like you keep thinking like that and that is the attitude on
things.  If you like thinking like the "norm", well hey there is nothing I
can say, but good luck, I wish the best.  And, then go ahead and "get what
ya paid for or NOT" and go on dates "that won't put out".  I personally do
NOT think that 399.00 for v5 is worth it or is a fair price...that is way
too expensive for skip upgrade.  I paid much less than that with other
companies for skip upgrades.  That is totally "not very conscientious" nor
is really ethical in pricing.  Again, 249.00, maybe is better, but not
399.00.  "That's the way it goes" is hardly the way people change things. 
That just makes it more okay for me to roll you over with a steamroller and
say "well oops, that the way it goes."  

>Apparently your the only one.  It's lonely being a visionary. I know.

Oh hum, Yeah, well a heavy price to pay.  What I see totally different than
what you see.  But mostly the  world is filled with people like you...and I
guess I have to be understanding that most people can't think outside the
box.  And well it is true, great minds like myself are met with frequent
opposition.  Well, I guess that is the difference between you an I.  A great
mind versus the "I will settle for what you give me, cause I can't find
better" attitude...ROTFLMAO!  Read between the lines, I know it is hard to,
especially with that case of Attention Deficit Disorder that you have.  But
try a little harder...maybe things will change...LOL.  

Most people say things like the "the Majority rule feels this way", until
the tables start to be  turned for each individual.  But also, to say the
"majority rule" has power is also naive, since really you or I have no say
in the matter, now do we.  Couple of people in Armchair meeting make those
decision, and yet we naively sit here in think that we had power in those
decisions.  Yeah well, damned if we do, damned if don't.  So I guess, I
could sell my version of Logic on eBay (like Dave Smith of EmagicUSA
suggested I do)...Let's see, I could sell it to some poor bloke for what
500.00 US and then later have them find out that it will cost them 399.00 to
upgrade.  Then when the person emails me, I can tell them "hey, that's the
way it goes."  

Peace,
Alexis

Thoughts from the mind of Alexis Aiosa, 12-02-2002:

>Hey buddy, I have seen your posts, you been caught with pants down.  Don't
>try a play that whiner shit with me.  You have bitched and moaned way more
>than I.  Yah, freakin' Poser.
[etc, etc, on and on and on]

Alexis, please get your act together and stop behaving like a bored 
teenager.  I fail to see what posts like yours contribute to this 
list, to the world, or to anyone's knowledge, wisdom or inspiration. 
These past days you seem to make it a habit to post offending and 
insulting crap like this.  Lots of noise, little substance.  If you 
have so many objections to Logic or Emagic, then just quite using the 
program and move on.  Or, in plain understandable language: get a 
life.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Thoughts from a person not really paying attention at all Hendrik Jan
Veenstra:

Hendrik, stay out of this...I didn't start the whiner crap...and I just
found out that my upgrade will be $399.00 US...Now would like me to convert
it to EUR to you.  Which is bullcrap and you know it.  Stop smooching Emagic
butt, you can get hepatitis that way.
  
> Alexis, please get your act together and stop behaving like a bored 
> teenager.

Well maybe if someone treated this concept as an idea to actually go forward
and do something about it.  Then maybe crap like this wouldn't happen.  And
really, in the past even you have expressed imperfection. One thing is to
have said what I said earlier, the other thing is to have some *ssh*le make
so illiterate comment.   And my life is really not all that boring...quite
crazy right now...so, personally speaking, remember that when one points the
finger, there are three pointing back at themselves.  Personally, what is
shocking to me, is to see you side with people that would serve you the
same.  Personally thought you would see right through that.

> I fail to see what posts like yours contribute to this 
> list, to the world, or to anyone's knowledge, wisdom or inspiration. 

What, now you are complaining about OT LIST...

And sometimes Hendrik, you fail to see a lot of thing...But I don't usually
blame you for that.   But, Yeah, so you have to jump on my case, yet not
extend your message to others as well...c'mon follow the thread back a
little...hmmm.  Look at how you are misusing your insight now.  It is funny
because I have friend just like you...into Zen Buddhism.  Yet I always seem
to trip him up with his own hypocrisy.  To walk the path is to be the Path. 
Hendrik.

> These past days you seem to make it a habit to post offending and 
> insulting crap like this.

1. Again, WHO insulted WHO first HERE?

2. Because I am genuinely PISSED OFF!  This is crap.  399.00 is awful.  That
hardly positions me in flight of Delight in purchasing LA v5 upgrade. 
249.00, Maybe with shipping included...fine.  But this is a joke.  I paid
540 retail, then add the cost of upgrades over times that would be about
300.00, then to say to me 399.00 US.  C'mon, cut the crap Hendrik.

> Lots of noise, little substance. 

Then don't read it Hendrik...really, no one is twisting your arm to read it.
 And if you really want substance, you are not going find it here.  Need I
suggest a good book?

 If you 
> have so many objections to Logic or Emagic, then just quite using the 
> program and move on.  

If this how it is to be...then, I-WANT-MY-MONEY-BACK!  Gladly move on to
something else...I refuse to pay 399.00 for Skip upgrade that is just
stupid.  No one should have spend that kind of money.  And since I can't get
my money back, I am stuck with this software, and the investments there of
since version 2.0.  This to me is preposterous and inconsiderate.  This is a
severe lack of judgement, not on my part, but Emagic's.  As far as I am
concerned, I view this whole investment as considerable waste of time and
much needed resources.  I guess one could say, I bought Lemon.  But now the
lemon has gone bad, so it is to late to make lemonade.

> Or, in plain understandable language: get a 
> life.

Well, you are the one reading this...so who's life needs to be gotten here. 
Who is actually wasting time "in the moment"?  Hmmm.  Personally, you are
not the one sitting here dealing with this, are you?  But, conceivably in
the future, if NO ONE said anything (like me, right now)...Then this could
be your future to...one day. 

Funny how people claim to want to be in tune to others, but fail to see that
they too might have to deal with this one day.  Funny how indifference
works.  Oh, but it is okay to expose tobacco companies and tire companies
for their dangerous products or lack of conscience regarding human safety. 
It is okay to jump up and down with regards to consumer advocacy.  But pose
the doubt or negative candor here, and suddenly the individual is met with
opposition.  Suddenly they are the bad guy, forced to be hushed up by the
"Control Freaks with Big Brother attitudes".  And even when an individual
steps up to presents themselves with good reasons and objectively declares
that, it still is met with opposition of total ignorance, to which that
ignorance will fall prey of being the victim of circumstance.  So, if you do
follow my threads, think of all the interesting things I have said, then
think to yourself, "boy...he really must be pissed off".  Instead of
presenting yourself to side with others.  Think Different, before judging my
actions.

Peace Out,
Alexis

And another thing: With broadband internet upgrading is sooo easy! No
sending away for distribution disks, etc. Really pretty painless.
Kevin

> Re: Does anyone feel like "whiner" is their middle name.
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Very well observed, Dennis, hehehehe :-))
> 
> Louis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dennis Gunn
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [L-OT] Does anyone feel like "whiner" is their middle name.
> 
> 
>> I just called Emagic here in the US.
>> 
>> Guess what!  My upgrade for 3.72 to version 5 is going to 399.00.  Now I
>> have been using LAMP since version 2.0.  And in some ways, I do think the
>> pricing is fair.  But with all problems and issues since 3.5 through to
>> version 4 (v4 is at my friends studio).  Does one honestly feel that I
>> should spend the doe on version 5?
> 
> Yes that is a lot but you want it and feel it is worth the price or
> you don't.  It really has been ages since e-magic has done a paid
> upgrade.
> 
> 
>> Really, does one see any advantage, because right now, I don't see any.
>> Have the dominant amount of bugs gone away?  Or is it really to early to
>> tell.  Or did just a slew crap happen, like opening the Pandora's box.
> 
> There are advantages to the 5.0 release and there will be more in the
> unpaid sub releases.  You know the drill.
> 
>> I mean, I am really tired of this...is there anyone else tired of this?
> 
> Tired of what? Bugs?  Sure.  I'm also tired of telephone marketers,
> mosquitos, rent, dates that won't "put out" and all the rest
> humanities plagues but that's the way it goes.
> 
> 
>> Or
>> am I the only one who sees the futility of upgrading.  LOL.
> 
> Apparently your the only one.  It's lonely being a visionary. I know.

Thoughts from the mind of Alexis Aiosa, 12-02-2002:

>Hendrik, stay out of this...I didn't start the whiner crap...and I just
>found out that my upgrade will be $399.00 US...Now would like me to convert
>it to EUR to you.  Which is bullcrap and you know it.  Stop smooching Emagic
>butt, you can get hepatitis that way.

I can understand your annoyance at having to pay quite a huge sum of 
money, and don't mind at all if you express that annoyance.  However, 
I still don't see the point of using abusive language to individual 
users who can't do anything about this pricing-issue.
And yes, I read the rest of this thread, and maybe I missed 
something, but I didn't see anyone offend you like you offend others.

>  > Alexis, please get your act together and stop behaving like a bored
>  > teenager.
>
>Well maybe if someone treated this concept as an idea to actually go forward
>and do something about it.  Then maybe crap like this wouldn't happen.

Serious question: do you have any idea what the v3 to v4 upgrade 
cost, at the time?  Let's suppose it was $200.  Now v4 to v5 is $150. 
So 3-to-5 might be $350.  Add some inflation, etc, and you get some 
$400...  Not unreasonable then.  Or was the 3-to-4 upgrade more like 
$50?  In that case you have a valid point.

Seriously, no-one can judge the (un)reasonableness (is that a word?) 
of the $400 pricing without knowing the 3-to-4 upgrade price -- which 
I haven't seen mentioned in this entire thread.

>And really, in the past even you have expressed imperfection.

Yes, _even_ I am not perfect <grin>...

>Personally, what is shocking to me, is to see you side with people 
>that would serve you the same.  Personally thought you would see 
>right through that.

I'm not siding with anyone.  I just object to your somewhat 
thoughtless people-bashing.  I can understand anger, but anger never 
is an excuse to start behaving like you do.
I know you're not an idiot, and maybe *that's* the reason I object to 
your postings.  Others have posted worse things in the past (not 
necessarily referring to this thread), and I may not have responded 
to that, since I already gave up on some people.  The fact that I 
object to your postings therefore means that I think you're _worth_ 
objecting to.

>And sometimes Hendrik, you fail to see a lot of thing...But I don't usually
>blame you for that.

Ditto the other way around.  *Usually* I don't either.  Except this time.

>then add the cost of upgrades over times that would be about
>300.00, then to say to me 399.00 US.  C'mon, cut the crap Hendrik.

So you claim that the v3-v4 upgrade was 300 (your number above) - 150 
(the v4-v5 price) = $150?

If I read this correctly and the v3/v4 price indeed was $150, then 
you seem to have a valid point here.  *That* should have been your 
argument then.  Just claiming that "400 is too much" is of little use 
without the proper background info (which I might have missed, but 
don't think I did)

>Personally, you are not the one sitting here dealing with this, are 
>you?  But, conceivably in the future, if NO ONE said anything (like 
>me, right now)...Then this could be your future to...one day.

Agreed.  And once more I don't object to your anger -- esp. if it's 
justified (depending on the v3/v4 pricing).  But then Emagic should 
be the target of your anger, and not some fellow LUGger.  Even if 
it's a LUGger "kissing up Emagic's butt", to paraphrase you.  Who 
cares if some LUGgers swallow everything Emagic serves them?  What 
difference does it make?  None at all.

>And even when an individual steps up to presents themselves with 
>good reasons and objectively declares that, it still is met with 
>opposition of total ignorance, to which that ignorance will fall 
>prey of being the victim of circumstance.

Nothing wrong with "good reasons and objectivity", but then that's 
not what I objected to.

>So, if you do follow my threads, think of all the interesting things 
>I have said, then think to yourself, "boy...he really must be pissed 
>off".

I did follow, and did think to myself...  And that's why a few days 
ago (6 feb) in the LUG I posted a rather decent (I think) message to 
you, asking you to stop behaving irrationally.  The 1st sentence in 
that message was:

"I've come to know you as a reasonable and knowledgeable guy, so I
don't really understand what you're trying to do now?  "

That still stands.  Both the 1st and the 2nd part of the sentence.


cheers,
HJ
-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

>>Guys, stop flaming eachother.... it's not leading anywhere.
>
>Not true.  I am finding Alexis posts pretty entertaining.
>
>Around the second paragraph of each one without any effort at all I 
>find his voice turning into that of Daffy Duck.

Suffffrrrrinnn, suckatash....THANK YOU...I love Daffy Duck...he is the one
who actually makes people Laugh.  If it wasn't for Daffy, Bugs would not be
as Entertaining.  One of my favorite cartoons. <GRIN>

However around the whole dialogue of your response to my prior post.  Your
words remind me of this character located between the butt cheeks, called
Brown Eye.  Without any effort at all, I find your voice turning into that
of  Brown Eye's.  That is, after consuming a bowl of nasty Texan chili and
sitting down on the toilet for some Hershey squirts.  It really is funny
when you think of it in that context. 

Peace,
Alexis

>
>However around the whole dialogue of your response to my prior post.  Your
>words remind me of this character located between the butt cheeks, called
>Brown Eye.  Without any effort at all, I find your voice turning into that
>of  Brown Eye's.  That is, after consuming a bowl of nasty Texan chili and
>sitting down on the toilet for some Hershey squirts.  It really is funny
>when you think of it in that context.

I haven't the vaguest idea what you are talking about.

BTW when you are talking to people in person do you always tell them 
when they are supposed to laugh?

How did that come about?

>>However around the whole dialogue of your response to my prior post.  Your
>>words remind me of this character located between the butt cheeks, called
>>Brown Eye.  Without any effort at all, I find your voice turning into that
>>of  Brown Eye's.  That is, after consuming a bowl of nasty Texan chili and
>>sitting down on the toilet for some Hershey squirts.  It really is funny
>>when you think of it in that context.
>
>I haven't the vaguest idea what you are talking about.

Wow, illiteracy is rampant in America...who knew.  Geez, people do actually
have to hit people over the head with it.  Maybe if you read it a few times
more...maybe you'll get it.  oh, hum...maybe it's the Attention Deficit
Disorder.  Try a little harder...it is okay, we all understand.  Just slow
down Dennis and concentrate...you can do this.

(_o_)  <------- "Brown Eye...located between the BUTT CHEEKS" 

(See Picture description on your left...NO, your other left.) 

Now...a bowl of Nasty Texas CHILI + TOILET = Hershey squirts

>BTW when you are talking to people in person do you always tell them 
>when they are supposed to laugh?

Huh?  Talk about vague.  That was coming in way out of left field.

But the answer to your question is, no, they usually laugh on their own. 
Depending on the fact that their synaptic brain functions are working
properly or if I am tickling them.  Depends.  However, the material is
purely subjective as well...it depends on who is listening. But when dealing
with certain people, they sometimes don't get it.  With some, it takes them
a while, to rise above the normalcy of their thinking patterns.  Then once
they get used to me, they start to become accustomed to the mode in which I
operate.  Does that answer your question?  I think there was one person who
thought you were funny.  Again, purely subjective.

>How did that come about?

How did what come about?  Is the Attention Deficit Disorder kicking in
again?  If so, try to concentrate...I have faith, I know you can do this.  

Peace,
Alexis

PS:  Might I suggest a Flame Thrower, rather than using a Bic lighter and a
Can lighter fluid.

>  >>However around the whole dialogue of your response to my prior post.  Your
>>>words remind me of this character located between the butt cheeks, called
>>>Brown Eye.  Without any effort at all, I find your voice turning into that
>>>of  Brown Eye's.  That is, after consuming a bowl of nasty Texan chili and
>>>sitting down on the toilet for some Hershey squirts.  It really is funny
>>>when you think of it in that context.
>>
>>I haven't the vaguest idea what you are talking about.
>
>Wow, illiteracy is rampant in America...who knew.  Geez, people do actually
>have to hit people over the head with it.  Maybe if you read it a few times
>more...maybe you'll get it.  oh, hum...maybe[bla bla bla bla... ad nausium]

The wonderful thing about fools is that they never know how foolish 
they are even when it is pointed out to them.  As Mark Twain put it 
"the invincibility of idiocy".

Good luck Alexis.  You'll be needing it.

End the flames guys, I really don't feel like moderating two lists. The 
LUG is already a full time job.

Can we get into something constructive please?

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

>  >BTW when you are talking to people in person do you always tell them
>>when they are supposed to laugh?
>
>Huh?  Talk about vague.  That was coming in way out of left field.
>
>But the answer to your question is, no, they usually laugh on their own.

Yes I am sure they laugh.  I am just not so sure that you know why.

>>more...maybe you'll get it.  oh, hum...maybe[bla bla bla bla... ad nausium]

Funny how people can dish it out, but can't really take it.

>The wonderful thing about fools is that they never know how foolish 
>they are even when it is pointed out to them.  As Mark Twain put it 
>"the invincibility of idiocy".
>
>Good luck Alexis.  You'll be needing it.

Thank you...I appreciate the gesture...but.

Actually good luck to you. See, I won't be needing LA 5, since I am NOT
going to Pay $399.00 for a "Skip Upgrade".  Because paying that amount for
"Skip Upgrade"...Well, THAT, my friend, is downright foolish and idiotic.  I
would rather be called a fool, then to have paid 399.00 for a "skip upgrade"
and still called a fool for doing so...At least this way, I am a fool who is
$399.00 richer.

But, you didn't see the real point.  I was in fact raising issue not only
for me, but for you and other as well.  But you chose to be ignorant about
it.  Really think of what you said, see your dialogue.  So, instead of
seeing this as potentially being "you" one day.  You chose to see it with
"the invincibility of idiocy".  You are effectively pointing a finger, but
yet, there three fingers pointing right back at you.  But also, "On the
other hand, you have different fingers." and yet, you failed to see that, as
well.  You also failed to see that you have actually "pointing NOTHING out
to me"...nothing, nada, zilch, ZERO.  You have done nothing to serve, just
divide.

You chose to direct energy in a way, that condemns me.  Instead of
pragmatically looking at the situation and saying..."hmmm, that does sound a
bit fishy.  399.00 dollars for a skip upgrade?!".  But you don't care about
that, now do you.  You will only care, when it is you in the circumstance
and your ass.  Until that day happens, you are happy...to which one can say,
"Ignorance is bliss".  So, while you're flexing your intellect and quoting
"Mark Twain"...think about what Twain did for his colleagues.  

For years, he was friends with Nikola Tesla.  And when Tesla started
becoming destitute, he literally sponsored Tesla for years.  With his own
money.  Why, because he realized the "the invincibility of idiocy" was not
his good friends innocent approach to life and business.  He realized Tesla
may have lost in business, yes, but a true Genius and a great mind.  The
"the invincibility of idiocy" came from the people that screwed him over. 
Twain was a great man, in that respect.  Because while Tesla was eventually
forced into climbing up power poles, cleaning up and fixing DC power lines
created by Edison, just for his room and board.  It wasn't until later, that
some people gathered together and said "hey, now wait a minute, AC is
better...look."  Tesla...not Edison...so who was the fool.  And if we had
gone forward with Tesla's inventions, just maybe we would all have
incredible amounts of electrical resources for FREE.  The idea, is that
Edison was selling crap, and only few people knew it. Yet to this day, we
exploit Tesla's AC and yet pay for it through Edison company...lol.

Also, note that Edison was very much like Microsoft is today...Edison didn't
really invent anything, just bought patents and found ways to make them
work...the only true invention that Edison can claim, was the Electric
Chair.  To which Twain, thought was pretty stupid, pointless and disgusting.
 Edison being a bit of money grubbing sloth.  Edison also held the patents
for the moving picture camera.  To which, if you wanted to make a movie, you
had to rent it from Edison and Edison only.  Then one day, the Warner
Brothers rented a moving picture camera, and never returned it!  LOL.  They
stole their first camera, and screwed Edison...Karma for Edison, because
some people actually thought him to be an ass. So did Twain.

Twain also said:  Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of
a good example.
(from me to you)

Twain Also said:  If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he
will not bite you.  This is the principal difference between a man and a
dog.
(pretty interesting, wouldn't you say?)

Twain Also said: Never tell the truth to people who are not worthy of it. 
(hence, maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all...hmmm...then later let
you discover this crap on your own.  Oh well, next time.)

Twain Also said: The human race consists of the damned and the ought-to-be
damned.
(yet, another way of seeing who is really out of line here ME or Emagic.)

Twain Also said: An Ethical man is a Christian holding four Aces.
(too funny to resist)

Twain Also said: Principal have no real force except when one is well fed. 
(proving piracy of software is inevitable...just thought I would toss that
in there.)

Twain Also said: The church is always trying to get other people to reform,
it might not be a bad idea to reform itself.
(This one metaphorically speaks to Emagic, regarding the 399.00 "skip
upgrade" and even add in the  upgrade schemes which are effectively draining
some of peoples resources.)

Twain Also said: Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some
observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.
(apparently today, this has proven to be true)

Twain Also said: There are no people who are quite so vulgar as the
over-refined.
(again...to funny to resist.  This one is for Emagic and their lack of
humor.)

Twain Also said: The universal brotherhood of man is our most precious
possession--what there is of it.
(apparently not of value to you or Emagic, so therefore there is no need for
respect.)

Twain Also said: A robber is much more high-toned than what a pirate is--as
a general thing. In most countries they're awful high up in the
nobility--dukes and such.
(again...a little jab at Emagic)

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad."  Salvador
Dali
(I love Dali, don't you?)

"Facts are the enemy of truth." Don Quixote - "Man of La Mancha" 
(fact is: 399.00 for a "skip upgrade" is bullshit...yet most don't see the
truth of that.)

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it
is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."  Arthur
Schopenhauer
(so now, I am waiting for the truth to become self evident...it has for
some.) 

"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer
shelf life."  Frank Zappa
(perhaps I should accept this as truth.)

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." Jimi Hendrix 
(good advice, that everyone should heed)

"Wise men make proverbs, but fools repeat them." Samuel Palmer
(need I say more)

"The covers of this book are too far apart." Ambrose Bierce
(Emagic Manuals)

"Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes."  Henry David Thoreau 
(more jabs at Emagic, for current upgrading procedures and unethical
charging of 399.00 for a skip upgrade)

"There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good
teacher." Flannery O'Connor 
(A good stab at Emagic's software...LOL.  If one really thinks
about...ROTFLMAO!) 

"The truth is more important than the facts."  Frank Lloyd Wright
(the truth is: 399.00 for "skip upgrade" is too much money...hence, renders
all the facts that surround this concept totally mute...LOL.)

"Sanity is a madness put to good uses."  George Santayana 
(more on me and they way I operate)

"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain
(he is right on this one, don't ya think?)

"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."  Carl Gustav Jung
(from me to you) 

"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense." Tom
Clancy
(he, he, he...I love that one!  Goes to show, just how "logical" 399.00 for
skip upgrade is.)

However, what you did was very short sighted to ideal of greatness in the
human spirit.  What "I" did, was raise the issue and present it on the
table.  The wool has been pulled over your eyes, not mine.  Because you
agree to this, not me.  For every individual that agrees with this, is just
going corner themselves later on.  I will have ventured forth onto other
things...and eventually you will be talking to me on another list somewhere
else...or not.  But I guarantee you, I won't ever pay, $399.00 for skip
upgrade.

A quote from me:  I do respect you...not as the human you are, but as the
human you are not.
(I hope I didn't inadvertently plagiarize that one.)

Peace, and...
"I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it." Groucho Marx 
Alexis

>  >>more...maybe you'll get it.  oh, hum...maybe[bla bla bla bla... ad nausium]
>
>Funny how people can dish it out, but can't really take it.

Please don't get the idea that I give a shit.  I spar with people 
sometimes and I admit I like it.  But it's only fun under certain 
conditions.  In your case there is nothing I could or would say to or 
about you that could make you look worse than your own words so I 
just don't see the point.


>Thank you...I appreciate the gesture...but.
>
>Actually  [bla bla bla bla 
>bla.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................]

Are you familiar with the phrase "Brevity is the soul of wit."?

>You chose to direct energy in a way, that condemns me.  Instead of
>pragmatically looking at the situation and saying..."hmmm, that does sound a
>bit fishy.  399.00 dollars for a skip upgrade?!".  But you don't care about
>that, now do you.  You will only care, when it is you in the circumstance
>and your ass.  Until that day happens, you are happy...to which one can say,
>"Ignorance is bliss".  So, while you're flexing your intellect and quoting
>"Mark Twain"...think about what Twain did for his colleagues.
>
>For years, he was friends with Nikola Tesla.  And when Tesla started
>becoming destitute, he literally sponsored Tesla for years.  With his own
>money.  Why, because he realized the "the invincibility of idiocy" was not
>his good friends innocent approach to life and business.  He realized Tesla
>may have lost in business, yes, but a true Genius and a great mind.  The
>"the invincibility of idiocy" came from the people that screwed him over.
>Twain was a great man, in that respect.  Because while Tesla was eventually
>forced into climbing up power poles, cleaning up and fixing DC power lines
>created by Edison, just for his room and board.  It wasn't until later, that
>some people gathered together and said "hey, now wait a minute, AC is
>better...look."  Tesla...not Edison...so who was the fool.  And if we had
>gone forward with Tesla's inventions, just maybe we would all have
>incredible amounts of electrical resources for FREE.  The idea, is that
>Edison was selling crap, and only few people knew it. Yet to this day, we
>exploit Tesla's AC and yet pay for it through Edison company...lol.

Wrong.  Tesla became an enemy of Edison after working for him for a 
very short time and getting ripped off once.  Tesla was exploited 
mercilessly by George Westinghouse.  If Tesla had stuck to his 
original agreement or even negotiated a little he could have been one 
of the richest men, if not "the" richest man in America.

Instead he gave up his claim to royalties for electricity generated 
using his multiphase generators because George Westinghouse convinced 
him that if he stuck to his original agreement it would have killed 
the AC project and Edison's inefficient DC system would have won.

Tesla did not give up his royalties out of pure generosity.  It was 
probably 10% generosity 10% hatred of Edison 30% the naive assumption 
that it would earn him the steadfast patronage of Westinghouse and 
the main 60% confidence that he was close to realization of his dream 
of wireless energy transmission lifetime which if it had ever been 
actually accomplished would have rendered the vast electrical energy 
networks Westinghouse was constructing obsolete.  To imply that Tesla 
was not profit motivated is just plain stupid.  The fact was that in 
addition to sheer love for what he did he wanted to be rich and to 
enjoy his celebrity he was just mistakenly convinced that his most 
profitable invention was yet to come and therefore maintained his 
resources poorly.  He lost a lot of money and data when his lab 
burned and he never recovered.  That shouldn't have broke him but it 
did.

Nicola Tesla was probably the greatest inventor this world has seen 
in the last couple of hundred years died broke because he was a bad 
businessman.  It's too bad because if he had been a good one 
businessman and had been able to continue to finance his own work we 
less talented mortals would be enjoying even more of the fruits of 
his genius today.

That's why I respect inventors and the developers of inventions and 
when they set a price for putting their intellectual property at my 
disposal I either agree that what they are selling is worth that 
price to me and pay it or I don't.

What I do not do is whine like a spoiled six year old because they 
want me to pay for their work instead of just giving it to me.


>Also, note that Edison was very much like Microsoft is today...Edison didn't
>really invent anything, just bought patents and found ways to make them
>work...the only true invention that Edison can claim, was the Electric
>Chair.

Wrong again.  On many levels.  Edison invented lots of things, he was 
"also" but not "just" a total asshole who exploited those around him 
*but* to imply that his talent for making inventions "work" as in 
"earn money" was somehow unimportant is ludicrous and inane.  Over 
95% of patents obtained do not even earn enough to pay for the filing 
fee.  If someone can make a patent "work" he is doing a service to 
humanity because otherwise those inventions protected by the patents 
will just sleep in the patent office and their inventors will live 
out their lives in poverty.


>To which Twain, thought was pretty stupid, pointless and disgusting.
>  Edison being a bit of money grubbing sloth.

Edison may have been repugnant be he was anything but a sloth.




>However, what you did was very short sighted to ideal of greatness in the
>human spirit.  What "I" did, was raise the issue and present it on the
>table.  The wool has been pulled over your eyes, not mine.  Because you
>agree to this, not me.  For every individual that agrees with this, is just
>going corner themselves later on.  I will have ventured forth onto other
>things...and eventually you will be talking to me on another list somewhere
>else...or not.  But I guarantee you, I won't ever pay, $399.00 for skip
>upgrade.

You may be convinced that you are comparable in spirit to Mark Twain 
or Nicola Tesla but you are probably the only one.

If you had some valuable intellectual property that is actually out 
there doing something I do not believe you would be spouting crap 
that you have been.  But then if you were smart enough to actually 
originate an idea you would also probably be smart enough not to say 
the things you do.

>>Funny how people can dish it out, but can't really take it.
>
>Please don't get the idea that I give a shit.[bla bla bla bla bla]
  
Oh oh, folks, he is about to explode in his seat in just a few minutes. 

>Are you familiar with the phrase "Brevity is the soul of wit."?

Brevity, hmmm...would like to type another SA on this...I am all
eyes...ROTLMAO!

Peace,
Alexis

PS:  Hey, I think I felt a tiny *dink* against my armor.  Oh wait, that's
Dennis using a pellet gun.

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." 
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:

<Big huge SNIP>

Regardless of historical corrections and elaboration of facts, which AGAIN
deterred from the truth...The real point was:

"Facts are the enemy of truth." Don Quixote - "Man of La Mancha" 

1.  Twain *Helped* his colleague in a time of *NEED*.  He didn't call him a
*Whiner*.  Which was really was the subtle hint I was trying to make with
you.  You didn't see that.

2.  The other point is the truth, which doesn't always pertain to facts!  

Fact is, the Upgrade from *v3.72 to v5* is 399.00, truth is, it's a rip off.
 When considering certain factors.

> If you had some valuable intellectual property that is actually out 
> there doing something I do not believe you would be spouting crap 
> that you have been.  But then if you were smart enough to actually 
> originate an idea you would also probably be smart enough not to say 
> the things you do.

3.  Regardless of any intellectual property being out there or not, and the
spewing historical of facts...read this and then tell me what you think? 
Tell me to my face even, that I deserve to be called a *whiner* by you! 
Because here is the truth and fact, lying here before you.

Read this:

My current upgrade price 399.00, however the promotional sale price over the
counter was:

LAP v4 + AW2 card = 399.00

Breakdown is:
249.00 for LAP v4  <---Over the counter.
150.00 for AW2 card

-----------------------

My upgrade 3.7.2 to v5.0 = 399.00 

Breakdown is:
249.00 for LAP v4  <---the same price it was 2 years ago, yet delineated
technology.
150.00 for v5.0

-----------------------

Now take "promotional over the counter sale":

LAP v4 + AW2 card = 399.00

and

add upgrade to v5.0  = 150.00

Total 549.00
Compared to just my upgrade which is now.  $399.00

Effective, yet LOGICAL comparisons:

1.  Then I effectively sell the card to someone else for 150.00.  Now I am
back to 399.00 for the v5.0 upgrade.  

Critique:  So, really how is that any better than buying my current license
upgrade.  Compared to a fairly current "over the counter purchase" from a
retail store?  No advantage.  You and I are supposed to get better deals on
upgrades or even skip upgrades...that is the idea.  This is called,
unethical pricing, or is an actual faux pa on Emagic's of  the upgrade
pricing structure...because feasibly if I knew this, I could have bought the
promotion over counter and then, read on...

or

2.  Then I am receiving AW2 card for just 150.00...LOL.  And have two
licenses.  But, I then turn around and sell my old license to anyone I know
for 150.00 and tell them they would have to pay 399.00, which for them is a
better deal to today's standards. Compared to a TODAY's current "over the
counter purchase" from a retail store.  

Option: Effectively making my upgrade to v5 cost 399.00, yet now I have an
AW2 card.
249.00 for v3.7.2 to v5 + 150 for AW2 card = 399.00

or

3.  Then turn around and sell my old license and the AW2 card for 300.00 and
tell them they would have to pay 399.00 which again for them would be a
better deal to today's standards. 

Option: Making my new license to v5 effectively cost me 249.00.  LOL.
99.00 for v3.7.2 to v4 + 150 for v5 upgrade = 249.00

Amazing, huh?

"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

Now if others can see this...what do you have to say?  Do I deserve to be
called a *whiner* by you?  Am I not looking out for the better interest of
not just me, but you as well?  One should not have to go these extremes to
prove a point.  The idea being if you're purchasing anything, you as
consumer have to be able to somewhat trust who are doing business with,
otherwise, you will get pissed off, just as I am now.  Yes there certain
things that come about and things will change...But had I known this to be
true for my purchase of the upgrade, I would have ran (not walked) to my
local Guitar Center, and bought the promotional over the counter sale.  But
still, this is not something that one should have to do, as a person who
buys software upgrades from a company.  My "skip upgrade" as should yours,
should have a promotional value to it.  And I am pretty sure that I am not
the only one that hasn't upgraded in a while...even IF a low number of 1000
users still using 3.72, that skip upgrade might be a lot of cash for them. 
Also, again, not everyone here is PRO, so that hardly contends with the idea
of being moderate pricing for a web and print media person such as myself. 
Never forget your customer base...very important.  Not everyone is a pro
here or anywhere else for that matter.  There is wide and diverse set of
people out there, using programs in many different ways.

Like I said to someone else...Again, look up at those numbers and tell me
that my upgrade is ethically priced.  As long term client.  But I tell what
I am gonna do...I will give you a deal.  I can design 1 set of CD inserts,
label, conceptualize your Branding, design company logo and print assets for
you, for about $3,500.00, but for you, I will do it for $3,500.00.  LOL.  Or
will you *whine* about the price and how expensive I am.  Because, if that
is the case, then I can introduce you to my friend, who will design just the
CD inserts, but he will charge you about $5,000.00.  If you want see a
sample of his work, just look at "No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom".  That is what
he charges for that, and that my friend, was him providing a good deal.  So,
is 3500.00 a good deal?  Or are you gonna use you cracked version of
Photoshop to design your own CD covers...LOL.

Now just couple more questions...In your mind, did it prove to be
constructive to call me a *whiner*?  Did all this time you wasted typing out
SA's accomplish anything for you?

Peace,
Alexis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Now if others can see this...what do you have to say?  Do I deserve to be
>called a *whiner* by you?

yes.

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Alexis Aiosa" <aiosa9@m...> wrote:
> Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:

> Read this:
> 
> My current upgrade price 399.00, however the promotional sale price over the
> counter was:
> 
> LAP v4 + AW2 card = 399.00
> 
> Breakdown is:
> 249.00 for LAP v4  <---Over the counter.
> 150.00 for AW2 card

I assume you are speaking of the recent Guitar Center blowout sale on these items? If 
so, your numbers are incorrect. The AW2 card was listed separately in the same flyer 
for $79. Which would make their price for LAP $320.

Notice I said "their" price. This is not the average street price for this product. It's 1 
retailer clearing out inventory at or below cost, with a very limited amount of stock, for 
a very limited time.

I believe the rest of your math and is flawed for the above 2 reasons.

Now I believe your reasoning is flawed because you seem to think that since you never 
upgraded to 4.0, that you should now be rewarded for that decision by paying less for 
that incremental jump than the rest of us did.

Why? The development time that went into the feature set of 4.0 has not depreciated. 
In fact it has *appreciated* because of all the added features and functionality that 
was impliemented in the the various 4.x subreleases for no additional charge. Why 
should you be privvy to all these features and functions for less money then what we 
paid, simply because you chose to skip it at the time?

regar

>--- In logic-ot@y..., "Alexis Aiosa" <aiosa9@m...> wrote:
>  > Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:
>
>  > Read this:
>>
>>  My current upgrade price 399.00, however the promotional sale price over the
>  > counter was:

regar wrote:

>I assume you are speaking of the recent Guitar Center blowout sale 
>on these items?

Regar please watch your quoting.  I did not say any of that.  It was 
part of a toddler style temper tantrum directed at me by Alexis with 
whom I agree about nothing.

I'm changing list policy on the LUG. After about a week of full 
moderation, the list quality improved extremely quickly.
This also means the OT list will become a bigger part of the LUG (as you 
noticed I'm redirecting all OT mails to this list)... which means the 
quality standards of this list have to rise. So from now on, skip the 
personal attacks on this list. (They have much more effect if you do 
them in private. ;-)))
A new admin mail for all lists is about to be released. Full info can be 
found there.

Bye,
Joeri

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

>>Now if others can see this...what do you have to say?  Do I deserve to be
>>called a *whiner* by you?
>
>yes.

pity.