The Logic Off Topic list

Hi Joeri,

As a result both of Dennis Gunn's recent post and Col Bernau's earlier
response to Raymond's announcement of his departure, I had quite literally
given up on the Logic lists and quite literally only come back to my PC to
unsubscribe from them. As I said in my most recent posting, this is the
third time that I have come here in an attempt to be a member.

> I'd like to ask everyone's personal opinion. I'm not going to start this
> discussion on the LUG or we'll g et into trouble. :-)
I think it very significant, actually Joeri, that you have yourself stated
that you are not willing to start this kind of discussion on the LUG because
of the trouble it would cause. That, surely, is the only answer you need to
your own question. Although only an amateur I own quite a few pieces of soft
and hard ware and so am subscribed, under on nom-de-plume or another, to
several lists and forums. Of them all, this LUG is by far the most
intolerant and has by far the most unacceptable noise to signal ratio.

> Should I moderate harder on the LUG?
For a while ... yes I think so. I say only for a while because it does not
take people long to learn the kinds of lessons Phil has just learned.
Eventually, the character of a list is preserved by its members who make it
clear to each other what they will and will not tolerate.

> Problem is that before I can put
> someone into moderated mode, he has posted already.
This, in itself, does not matter -- because people will see the RESPONSE
immediately, and so even new members will come to understand what is and is
not to be accepted and/or tolerated.

> E.g.: should I moderate every time the PDF, crack and dongle threads pop
> up? I'm willing to do so, but I don't know whether the list wants me to.
Absolutely. Even though I have joined and left twice before, those topics
have come up so often and to no good purpose that even I am tired of them.
What it must be like for those who have been on this list for years and
years I can only imagine.

Would it not be a simple matter to put up a web page somewhere so that any
and everyone on the list can immediately direct people to that list as soon
as one of those truly interminable subjects comes up?

> Let's hear some opinions on it.
Well ... you're getting mine!!

> I have to say though that I already moderate quite a lot.
I'm sure you do. And, actually, although I am in the middle of complaining
please could I take this opportunity to thank you for the efforts you make /
have made to start and keep this list going.

> There is e.g.
> no way spammers can get in or banned people can reports their offensive
> mails... all of that is impossible on this list.
This is good

> I needs a lot of work,
> but I've been able to stop a nice amount of offensive mails already and
> that keeps me going.
Again, thank you.

In essence, and for what it's worth, if you want a quality product then you
have to put time into it. I regret to say, however, -- and I am only saying
because I think I can say it and feel that it would be heard
constructively -- that the standard of debate on this list, and the
interminability, unconstructiveness and repetitiveness of some of the topics
debated, and the manner in which those things are debated, is depressing to
say the least.

It would be very hard work for you for a while to change the Logic list so
that incidents such as we have had do not occur.

For my part, I am now filled with hope that you should post such an email
and will hold in abeyance my earlier decision to resign. You have my
complete support in in trying to change the character of this list, and if
there is anything I can do to assist you then I promise you that I will do
it with enthusiasm.

Thank you very much for your efforts.

Hi KA B,

Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated!

> Of them all, this LUG is by far the most
> intolerant and has by far the most unacceptable noise to signal ratio.

It's also the biggest list, I think. 4400+ members is a lot.

> > Should I moderate harder on the LUG?
> For a while ... yes I think so. I say only for a while because it does not
> take people long to learn the kinds of lessons Phil has just learned.

Not correct: we have lots of new subscribers and therefore some threads are
often restarted by newbies (although it's all in the welcome message they
receive (and which they trash)).

> Would it not be a simple matter to put up a web page somewhere so that any
> and everyone on the list can immediately direct people to that list as soon
> as one of those truly interminable subjects comes up?

I intended to make such a page after the recent threads. Seems like the only
possibility. It'll be online by tonight.

> and if
> there is anything I can do to assist you then I promise you that I will do
> it with enthusiasm.

Thanks!

Bye,
Joeri

--
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

On Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:46:16 +0100, Joeri Vankeirsbilck wrote:

>>Not correct: we have lots of new subscribers and therefore some threads are
>>often restarted by newbies (although it's all in the welcome message they
>>receive (and which they trash)).

That is why I think you should make a list in the "admin.txt" in which the "often repeated 
and therefore unwanted" topics are listed (or was there such a list? Can't remember).




Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With kind regards

Thorsten Kowalski

----- Original Message -----

From: "Joeri Vankeirsbilck" <joeri@...>
To: <logic-ot@egroups.com>
> > Of them all, this LUG is by far the most
> > intolerant and has by far the most unacceptable noise to signal ratio.
>
> It's also the biggest list, I think. 4400+ members is a lot.
It does not matter how many the members, intolerance is intolerance.

> Not correct: we have lots of new subscribers and therefore some threads
are
> often restarted by newbies
So ... they need somewhere to go to get immediate answers.

The problem is also that ignorant people often think that they are being
very clever indeed when all they are doing is rehashing arguments that
others have heard many times before. As with the making of music itself, it
is actually very difficult to be original; but only those who actually make
the effort to write songs see how hard it can actually be. Once people have
somewhere to go to have these ridiculous kinds of questions answered they
will learn two things: (a) that people on the List have heard it all before;
and (b) that they are not quite so clever as they think they are.

When they come back to the group from having read what is there in all of
that, they will immediately know, before they ask another question, that
they might well be about to ask ANOTHER question that has been heard many
times before. There is little more irritating than a questioner who thinks
he is being very clever when rehashing an old issue -- except perhaps an
answerer who thinks he is being even more clever when giving a really rather
stupid response.

In my humble opinion most people on the LUG are actually quite patient and
caring people. It is just that some things come up so often and time and
time again that people have a kind of a right to be impatient and intolerant
of it -- which sets a precedent in that establishes an overall culture in
which impatience and intolerance over many other issues is also tolerated
when it absolutely should not be. It is very difficult to put a stop to the
latter kinds of impatiences when people feel -- rightly-- justified about
the former kind.

> I intended to make such a page after the recent threads. Seems like the
only
> possibility. It'll be online by tonight.
Hooray hooray hooray hooray. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Even without having seen it -- thank you.

It is a HUGE step in the right direction.

Please be sure to email Mr. Beyer and tell him when it is up.

Hi,

> In the past few months, we've been treated to defenses of insensitive
> commentary involving misogyny, rascism and nazism as "just jokes."

Let me first say that it has been "quiet" for many months, but only the last
three weeks many different problematic threads showed up again.

> I don't think that's a big deal.  Most of the bandwidth abusers are repeat
> offenders.

Not necessarily true... often they are newbies. That's no excuse for me though
because I can find a solution for those two "groups" of subscribers.

> Perhaps you could announce the closing of a thread, or the
> shunting of a thread to the OT list, and that anyone who posts further in
> violation of your decision will be placed in moderated mode.  Then, do it.

I've done so before many times! Even in the last couple of weeks. The problem is
that by the time you've moderated those people, others step in as well and you
can have a thread that goes on for days.

> I think that it's unfortunate that you chose to belittle KA B in your
> attempt to close off the thread:

OK, gotta tell the full story: GruvWiz is banned because several people have
complained of private mails by him in the last couple of days. I also sent KA B a
personal mail and _asked_ him not to send such mails to the list. I also told him
to ignore my admin mail: I just "had to" officially comment on it or people would
start mailing me that I took no action. Maybe now my actions make more sense? :-)

> from Joeri's earlier LUG post...
> > That doesn't mean everyone should be moaning about it for the rest of their
> > lives.
> The person responsible for the ruckus was Phil Angus (did Len Sasso make a
> good call, or what?).  The person with the power to heal the group and end
> the discussion was Phil Angus.  And much to his credit, he rose to the
> challenge (thank you, Phil!).  Therefore, pressure should have been applied
> to PHIL from the very start.

Which I did: I also mailed him privately and urged him to be more careful when
posting jokes like that.

>  effective moderation that
> weeds out posts such as Phil's before they can do any damage

I remove many beforehand, but some just come out of the blue... Phil usually
posts valuable mails to the list.

> Add my name to theirs.

I hope you can reconsider that decision.

OK, after listening to some feedback (both here and privately), I think I'll
moderate even harder. Whether we like it or not, action has once again to be
taken.

Ciao,
Joeri

--
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

>> Perhaps you could announce the closing of a thread, or the
>> shunting of a thread to the OT list, and that anyone who posts further in
>> violation of your decision will be placed in moderated mode.  Then, do it.
>
>I've done so before many times! Even in the last couple of weeks. The
>problem is
>that by the time you've moderated those people, others step in as well and you
>can have a thread that goes on for days.

So boot the people that "step in" as well.  It may not shorten the thread
much, but if people get their hand slapped, they might think twice the next
time a "banned" thread comes around.  Although this may not completely
eliminate these endless threads, it will help somewhat.  I think this is
your best option.


Mike

_________
Mike Connelly, Composer/Sound Designer
mpc@...  /  http://www.noisefloor.com