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Hi-Tech ARM tools

Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-19 by Leon Heller

Having heard about the new Hi-Tech ARM tools I thought I'd download the demo
and try the software out. Where I used to work we used their PICC-18
compiler which worked quite well, unlike Microchip's own compiler for the
18Fxxx chips, which had so many bugs that we gave up on it.

Like all their tools, the ARM software is DOS-based with an optional Windows
IDE, rejoicing in the name of 'HI-TIDE'. They have written their own
compiler, assembler, linker etc. Unfortunately, HI-TIDE is written in Java,
which makes it rather slow and clunky. For some reason, the only sample
project which runs 'out of the box' is one for an OKI ARM chip, which is,
allegedly, very difficult to get hold of.

Has anyone else tried Hi-Tech's offering?

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

RE: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-19 by Paul Curtis

Hi Leon,

> Having heard about the new Hi-Tech ARM tools I thought I'd 
> download the demo and try the software out. Where I used to 
> work we used their PICC-18 compiler which worked quite well, 
> unlike Microchip's own compiler for the 18Fxxx chips, which 
> had so many bugs that we gave up on it.
> 
> Like all their tools, the ARM software is DOS-based with an 
> optional Windows IDE, rejoicing in the name of 'HI-TIDE'. 
> They have written their own compiler, assembler, linker etc. 
> Unfortunately, HI-TIDE is written in Java, which makes it 
> rather slow and clunky. For some reason, the only sample 
> project which runs 'out of the box' is one for an OKI ARM 
> chip, which is, allegedly, very difficult to get hold of.
> 
> Has anyone else tried Hi-Tech's offering?

I tried Hi-Tech's offering for MSP430 (of course).  I must admit that I
was disappointed with it (code generation below par, horrible IDE), so
no competition to us.  If the ARM tools are the same, as I expect they
are, I think they're overpriced and not of sufficient quality.

I think our approach is right.  However, we're considering replacing GCC
with something a bit more capable.  That may change as there are things
afoot in the ARM world.

--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for MSP430 and ARM processors

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by Clyde Stubbs

Just a small correction:

On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 09:21:24PM -0000, Leon Heller wrote:
> Like all their tools, the ARM software is DOS-based

All the code is Win32 - you CAN run the tools from the command
line, a feature appreciated by many of our customers, but it won't
run under DOS.

Feedback is always welcome, especially when it's specific and accurate.

Cheers, Clyde


-- 
Clyde Stubbs                     |            HI-TECH Software
Email: clyde@...          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger clyde@...   | AUS: +61 7 3552 7777 +61 7 3552 7778
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI-TECH C: compiling the real world.

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by microbit

> compiler, assembler, linker etc. Unfortunately, HI-TIDE is written in
Java,
> which makes it rather slow and clunky. For some reason, the only sample

It does run a bit slow, but I presume that it is interpreted to make it
totally platform/OS
independent. ???? (ie. a lot of added value for the vendor and client)

This is a massive investment upfront, and will require faster machines than
mine (:-)-
but later on new features can be just plugged in "as is" without native
Windows yet again giving you
_bloody_ nightmares.
I think it has its merits, it indicates a strong, long term commitment by
the tool vendor if my presumption
above is correct - Clyde ?

When we all bought out first 486DX100 we all thought we had the "bee's
knees".
Who would want one now ?
IOW there is/will be faster machines around (addmitedly I am running on only
an AMD750
with WIN98SE)

I'll go to XP-or-whatever-the-latest-craze-is when I get a 2 GHz machine.


Kris

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by J.C. Wren

I'm more curious why companies target the Windows market so heavily.  I've 
been a Windows user for years.  I never liked IDEs, as most IDEs made me use 
thier editor instead of my editor (yours may be different, but thing like 
CodeVision were exceptionally annoying in that regard).  I use ImageCrafts 
AVR C compiler, and I prefer it because it's command line invokable.

	I would think that considering the cost of a company installing a Linux 
system (cost of hardware + cost of a slightly less then brain-dead IT person) 
vs. the cost of a Windows seat (cost of hardware + cost of brain-dead IT 
person with $5000 MS certs + cost of license), that most companies would 
choose to use Linux, especially if the programmer supports his own machine 
(very common in development environments).

	Yes, the Linux windowing isn't quite as polished as Windows (I still prefer 
the look and feel of Windows over KDE), but I'm fed up with being locked into 
Windows registry garbage, the time cost of the inevitable system rebuild (be 
it Windows lunching itself, or the HD failing), and the inexorable trend 
towards Bill Gates dynamic licensing.

	Linux gives you windowing, it gives you a *real* command line development 
environment (4DOS and Cygwin get close, but not close enough), and it gives 
the average user far more stability.

	My personal feeling is that the majority of companies that only develop for 
Windows do so for one major reason: Copy protection.  I seriously doubt it's 
a learning issue.  If you can write Windows code, you can write Qt and Tk.  
But if you charge a *reasonable* price for tools (and maybe yours are, I 
don't know.  But I sure as hell know that IAR charges too much for far too 
little), people will buy them, even if they can steal them for free.  And the 
people that are going to steal them are going to do so regardless.  

	In fact, if I'm forced to use Window software and I purchase it, I look for 
cracks for it.  Primarily so that when my HD crashes in the middle of the 
night, or I am forced to migrate to another machine unexpectedly, I'm not at 
some companies mercy.  If I can't find a crack for a package, I won't buy it, 
and I won't use it.  And just because I posses a crack for it doesn't mean 
all my friends get copies.  I'm willing to pay for it, but on my terms, which 
means moving when I need to.

	So, as a company, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, and as a developer 
and user, I encourage you to support non-Windows environments (because if you 
support one *nix, you've got them all, with just the slightest changes.).

	--jc
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thursday 20 November 2003 00:55 am, Clyde Stubbs wrote:
>  Just a small correction:
>
>  On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 09:21:24PM -0000, Leon Heller wrote:
>  > Like all their tools, the ARM software is DOS-based
>
>  All the code is Win32 - you CAN run the tools from the command
>  line, a feature appreciated by many of our customers, but it won't
>  run under DOS.
>
>  Feedback is always welcome, especially when it's specific and accurate.
>
>  Cheers, Clyde
>
>
>  --
>  Clyde Stubbs                     |            HI-TECH Software
>  Email: clyde@htsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
>  WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
>  PGP:   finger clyde@htsoft.com   | AUS: +61 7 3552 7777 +61 7 3552 7778
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> HI-TECH C: compiling the real world.

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by J.C. Wren

You'd be better off switching to Win2K now.  You'll get better performance 
and far more reliably that you will with the toy OS called Win98SE.

	java, eh?  And you've found that to be portable?  This seems to be contrary 
to the opinions of friends of mine that do Java development, and constantly 
bitch about cross-platform incompatibilities.  Between Sun, BlackDown, and 
MS, few things seem to run on all platforms.

	--jc
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thursday 20 November 2003 01:16 am, microbit wrote:
>  > compiler, assembler, linker etc. Unfortunately, HI-TIDE is written in
>
>  Java,
>
>  > which makes it rather slow and clunky. For some reason, the only sample
>
>  It does run a bit slow, but I presume that it is interpreted to make it
>  totally platform/OS
>  independent. ???? (ie. a lot of added value for the vendor and client)
>
>  This is a massive investment upfront, and will require faster machines
> than mine (:-)-
>  but later on new features can be just plugged in "as is" without native
>  Windows yet again giving you
>  _bloody_ nightmares.
>  I think it has its merits, it indicates a strong, long term commitment by
>  the tool vendor if my presumption
>  above is correct - Clyde ?
>
>  When we all bought out first 486DX100 we all thought we had the "bee's
>  knees".
>  Who would want one now ?
>  IOW there is/will be faster machines around (addmitedly I am running on
> only an AMD750
>  with WIN98SE)
>
>  I'll go to XP-or-whatever-the-latest-craze-is when I get a 2 GHz machine.
>
>
>  Kris
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by microbit

>       You'd be better off switching to Win2K now.  You'll get better
performance
> and far more reliably that you will with the toy OS called Win98SE.

When WIN95 came out we all had to bear the bloody "Start me up" bleating.
So we did, and ... it didn't start up too well .. :-)
All peers I know here in Oz that are extremely proficient PC programmers,
down to
optimising in every ASM register and all the way up, swear by WIN98SE.

My machine on WIN98SE (AS LONG AS you _DON'T_ install Internet Shit )
runs Rock solid, it never - never crashes. (and I run many, many tools)
Any demos I try to put on my other machines, the registry's already screwed
up enough as it is.
Sure there's the DLLs with a few bugs (ie. COMM32 etc) but I just upgraded
those DLLs.

If there's any issue I might run into it's most likely documented.
When WIN2K/ME etc came out WIN98 suddenly was crap.
When XP came out everything else now was crap.
When will XP be crap ?????

I've seen _way too many_ cries for help on forums with people endlessly
arguing
that this-is-better-than-that, or simply that WIN2K needs you to license
so-and-so thru the Net (?)
or XP screws up LPT and on and on.......
I tend to wait a few years until those expected 5,000+ bugs are found.
But it's mostly taste (and certainly an acquired one), if you're happy with
your WIN2K then that's good for you,
I'm happy with my WIN98SE.


>       java, eh?  And you've found that to be portable?  This seems to be
contrary
> to the opinions of friends of mine that do Java development, and
constantly
> bitch about cross-platform incompatibilities.  Between Sun, BlackDown, and
> MS, few things seem to run on all platforms.

Dunno, that's what I was told, and that's why I disclaimed by stating that I
*presumed*.
I tend to give everything the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not a PC programmer, I don't profess to be, and don't WANT to be one.

And I readily volunteer that OS/language etc is not my forte, but at least I
don't rationalize it.

Have you fully read a "run of the mill" license agreement before you open
the package
(ie. it is binding and indicates you accept it)
If you don't then simply do either :
- Return it for full refund (you have that option !)
- Don't buy it (which you indicate you sometimes wisely opt for)

Acceptng a license and then cracking it "to work around HDD bla bla" is a
bunch of bullshit.

Reverse engineering your SW constitutes a breach of your license.
I respect your own reasons for it (although they seem more like a rationale
to me)
but if you are publicly volunteering this, your advice can't be too valued.

-- Kris

RE: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by Hugh O'Keeffe

Hi Paul,
More capable than GNU ? How ?  We've been using GNU ARM in one our
products (similar to yours I think) for over a year and we're impressed.
Once you have an IDE on top, its pretty much plug&play for Windows
users. Code generation is good and its very stable (we/our customers
found very few code generation bugs, the most notable being when using
the "interrupt keyword"). Our guesstimate is that it is within 5% of the
code size capabilities of the big guys (ARM ARM, GHS, IAR, etc). As for
Hi-Tech, my experience in the past has been good with their command line
tools (8/16-bit), however, my experience with Java front-ends (not
Hi-Tech's) has not. Some other tool companies have tried this approach
and have suffered from performance and mysterious VM crashes ("write
once, test everywhere").
 
It will of course take time for the new Hi-Tech ARM tools to "mature" to
the level of GNU. Note that Keil also plan to bring out their own native
compiler next year making the ARM market super competitive from a
compiler vendors pov (I can think of ~10 vendors).
 



Hugh @ http://www.ashling.com/support/lpc2100/ 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Curtis [mailto:plc@...] 
Sent: 19 November 2003 22:35
To: lpc2100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools


Hi Leon,

> Having heard about the new Hi-Tech ARM tools I thought I'd 
> download the demo and try the software out. Where I used to 
> work we used their PICC-18 compiler which worked quite well, 
> unlike Microchip's own compiler for the 18Fxxx chips, which 
> had so many bugs that we gave up on it.
> 
> Like all their tools, the ARM software is DOS-based with an 
> optional Windows IDE, rejoicing in the name of 'HI-TIDE'. 
> They have written their own compiler, assembler, linker etc. 
> Unfortunately, HI-TIDE is written in Java, which makes it 
> rather slow and clunky. For some reason, the only sample 
> project which runs 'out of the box' is one for an OKI ARM 
> chip, which is, allegedly, very difficult to get hold of.
> 
> Has anyone else tried Hi-Tech's offering?

I tried Hi-Tech's offering for MSP430 (of course).  I must admit that I
was disappointed with it (code generation below par, horrible IDE), so
no competition to us.  If the ARM tools are the same, as I expect they
are, I think they're overpriced and not of sufficient quality.

I think our approach is right.  However, we're considering replacing GCC
with something a bit more capable.  That may change as there are things
afoot in the ARM world.

--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for MSP430 and ARM processors 


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RE: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by Paul Curtis

Hi Hugh,

> More capable than GNU ? How ?   

In code generation.  Going from One Of Our Big Customer's perspective,
they compiled their code with Greenhills, ARM's own, and GCC.  They
provide libraries to developers to integrate their silicon's facilities.
The GCC-based version runs slower than either of the other two and is
bigger.  This is a big issue as the part has internal FLASH, needs to
support battery operation, so the apps need to be small and fast.  We
think there could be room for improvement at the £495/$850 price point.

Don't be in any doubt that we can't pull off the ARM code generation
issue as we were contracted, a long time ago, to move our Modula-2
compiler to RISC iX for ARM.  After doing that, the code generator was
just as good as the ARM one, and better in many cases.

> We've been using GNU ARM in one our products (similar to yours I
think)
> for over a year and we're impressed. Once you have an IDE on top, its
> pretty much plug&play for Windows users. Code generation is good and
its
> very stable (we/our customers found very few code generation bugs, the
> most notable being when using the "interrupt keyword").

Getting an ARM product wasn't the only reason to do the port to
ELF/DWARF.

> Our guesstimate is that it is within 5% of the code size capabilities
of
> the big guys (ARM ARM, GHS, IAR, etc). As for Hi-Tech, my experience
in
> the past has been good with their command line tools (8/16-bit),
however,
> my experience with Java front-ends (not Hi-Tech's) has not. Some other
> tool companies have tried this approach and have suffered from
performance
> and mysterious VM crashes ("write once, test everywhere").

Command line tools should port easily between different flavours of Unix
and Windows.  However, it's a different matter for a GUI.  My experience
with Java as a language to write commercial-grade GUI programs isn't
good.  Admittedly, I evaluated a long time ago, before the advent of
Swing/JFC, and the only reliable platform was Solaris.  Running the same
class files on Solaris and Windows was horrid; the JVMs were different,
gulped memory, ran like pigs, and gave different results.

> It will of course take time for the new Hi-Tech ARM tools to "mature"
to
> the level of GNU. Note that Keil also plan to bring out their own
native
> compiler next year making the ARM market super competitive from a
compiler
> vendors pov (I can think of ~10 vendors).

Keil have been promising their GCC-based ARM tools for ages.  Our price
point for something that supports multiple ARM processors, has
integrated downloading and flashing, and has a nice IDE for code cutting
and debugging is, we feel, competetive.  We don't use GDB as the
debugger, for instance, we have our own built in.  We don't use the
newlib library, we wrote our own, so things are compact.

We get portability through Qt.  We could offer a Linux version, and
probably will, it's just that nobody has asked for one.  Perhaps this is
the self-fulfiling prophesy.

-- Paul.

RE: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by Paul Curtis

John,

I speak for myself here, not for Clyde.

> 	I'm more curious why companies target the Windows 
> market so heavily.  I've been a Windows user for years.
> I never liked IDEs, as most IDEs made me use thier editor
> instead of my editor (yours may be different, but thing like 
> CodeVision were exceptionally annoying in that regard).  I 
> use ImageCrafts AVR C compiler, and I prefer it because
> it's command line invokable.

Many compilation systems have command line tools so they can be used
with make.  ImageCraft, Hi-Tech, RAL, we all understand that some users
just don't like IDEs and want the compiler, not the IDE.

> 	I would think that considering the cost of a company 
> installing a Linux system (cost of hardware + cost of a
> slightly less then brain-dead IT person) vs. the cost of
> a Windows seat (cost of hardware + cost of brain-dead IT 
> person with $5000 MS certs + cost of license), that most 
> companies would choose to use Linux, especially if the
> programmer supports his own machine (very common in
> development environments).

Actually, I choose to use Windows for good reason.  I have more choice
in application packages on Windows than on Linux.  And from a
development perspective, Windows with Visual C++ V6 is much more
productive than GCC on Linux because the Visual C++ compiler is so much
faster than GCC.  I can rebuild the whole of our IDE in under five
minutes on my machine, but on Linux it's an hour-long compile.  What
would you use?

> 	Linux gives you windowing, it gives you a *real* 
> command line development environment (4DOS and Cygwin
> get close, but not close enough), and it gives 
> the average user far more stability.

I've got the Interix subsystem on XP.  It's pretty good.  I also run
XWin-32, a paid-for X server for Windows.

> 	My personal feeling is that the majority of companies 
> that only develop for 
> Windows do so for one major reason: Copy protection.

This is where I need to *strongly* disagree.  I develop for Windows
because that's what the customers want and where the market is.  Of all
the licenses we've sold, only two customers have inquired about Linux
versions of our tools and both are using Windows versions of our tools
right now.  The market isn't there.  If it was, you'd see Linux versions
of everything, I can assure you.

--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for MSP430 and ARM processors

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by Clyde Stubbs

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:24:02AM -0500, J.C. Wren wrote:
> 	I'm more curious why companies target the Windows market so heavily.  I've 

Simply because most customers and potential customers use Windows. You will note,
however, that our tools are also available under Linux. And this is one of the
reasons for using Java for the IDE. While there were some solutions for
creating GUIs that would run under both Windows and Linux, they all had
drawbacks. I made the decision around 4 years ago that Java was the way
for the future. At the time, the available Java tools were lacking in some
respects, but the current set of tools (we have used the IBM JDK but are back
to the SUN JDK now) are not too bad. 

Speed of Java is not an issue, except for the GUI stuff. It's a lot better
than it was, and given the price of current hardware, will cease to be an
issue very shortly. Having adequate memory in your Windows machine is far more
improtant in any case.

So that's why our IDE uses Java. It's portable, and it is FAR more productive
to write in than C++. It costs the user a little more in terms of hardware
required, but every day that goes by makes that less of an issue.

As Kris said, it's an investment in the future.

We're also considering porting the tools to the Mac - with Mac OS X and
Java it's actually possible.

cheers, Clyde

-- 
Clyde Stubbs                     |            HI-TECH Software
Email: clyde@...          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger clyde@...   | AUS: +61 7 3552 7777 +61 7 3552 7778
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI-TECH C: compiling the real world.

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by Clyde Stubbs

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 05:16:11PM +1100, microbit wrote:
> IOW there is/will be faster machines around (addmitedly I am running on only
> an AMD750
> with WIN98SE)

Kris, put 512MB in your machine, load XP, and you'll be better off. Nothing
wrong with 750MHz with adequate memory. XP is the best that Macrosoft has
produced to date, but it is memory hungry.

-- 
Clyde Stubbs                     |            HI-TECH Software
Email: clyde@...          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger clyde@...   | AUS: +61 7 3552 7777 +61 7 3552 7778
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI-TECH C: compiling the real world.

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by Clyde Stubbs

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:26:51AM -0500, J.C. Wren wrote:
> 	java, eh?  And you've found that to be portable?  This seems to be contrary 
> to the opinions of friends of mine that do Java development, and constantly 

We've found no major problems doing development under Linux, then running
it on Windoze. Forget Blackdown, Sun and IBM have proper JDKs and VMs for
Linux.

-- 
Clyde Stubbs                     |            HI-TECH Software
Email: clyde@...          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger clyde@...   | AUS: +61 7 3552 7777 +61 7 3552 7778
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI-TECH C: compiling the real world.

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by microbit

> Kris, put 512MB in your machine, load XP, and you'll be better off.
Nothing
> wrong with 750MHz with adequate memory.

Hi Clyde,

I have 512 Mb in my machine !
Harddisks already wear enough without all the caching
(mind you, every 2 years I get a new HDD - regardless.)

Ironically the last new HDD failed after 3 months (obviously junk)

It set me back 3-4 days to reinstall everything. That's why I was stumped by
JC's comments
regarding HDD failures, What good is to have a "crack handy in the middle of
the night"
when it takes several days to reinstall the tools! And if no new HDD is
needed
but another PC is readily available, any decent licence system will allow
you to instantly switch
to that other machine (unless it's a dodgy licence system)

I am aware of the memory leak issues, but I find that if I reboot my machine
at least every 3 days
(typically you turn it off when you're done anyway) , I have no problems
whatsoever - or at the least
much less than many supposedly have experienced on XP with FETs on the LPTs.

> XP is the best that Macrosoft has produced to date, but it is memory
hungry.

I will eventually go to XP, but many of my tools weren't supported on XP
when I considered it.
It's something you put off like going to the dentist :-)
I consider myself open to suggestion, but it is hard to follow conflicting
advice.
The only way to find out is to install it myself I guess. Maybe I should
take the plunge......

B rgds
Kris

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by microbit

> On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:26:51AM -0500, J.C. Wren wrote:
> >       java, eh?  And you've found that to be portable?  This seems to be
contrary
> > to the opinions of friends of mine that do Java development, and
constantly

Then Clyde wrote :

> We've found no major problems doing development under Linux, then running
> it on Windoze. Forget Blackdown, Sun and IBM have proper JDKs and VMs for
> Linux.

I'm glag to hear that the advice I was given by peers I perceived to be very
capable PC
programmers that they appeared to be right.
Does that mean they are also right about W98SE (no pun intended)

-- Kris

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by J.C. Wren

When I purchase software, I expecte to be able to use it.  Period.  Being 
held hostage by having it tied to a HD or BIOS signature is the bullshit.  I 
fully respect the license in not disseminating copies, not allowing multiple 
users to use a single license package, etc.  

	Depending on the hardware failure, it can take as little as 30 minutes to be 
up and running.  I frequently clone the HDs, and I keep backups of projects 
on CD and network.  However, the cloned HDs will not run these two packages 
without a regenerated license key.  I don't know how the signature is done, I 
don't care, I haven't reversed engineered it.

	Over the years, I've been bitten by dongle failures and hardware failures 
that left me unable to run purchased packages (one time I've had the actual 
key module fail, one time I've had the reader that help multiple key modules 
failure, and I've had laptops that the parallel port has gotten blown up on, 
making the external key system unusable).  I call this a breach of right to 
run a package I legimately paid for.

	Whenever possible, I will maintain a means to use my legitimate software, be 
it because of hardware failure or the company going out of business (although 
the one time this has happened, they kindly provided me with a package that 
no longer required a key).

	You're welcome to call it what you want, reasons or rationale.  Be as self 
righteous as you like, last time I checked we're still entitled to fair-use 
backups.  Just because you can copy a piece of media doesn't mean it's a 
backup, if you can't run it afterwards.  And if you make imaged backups of 
your system, you'd might check that you're not in violation of any of your 
agreements.

	Lastly, as far as "but if you are publically volunteering this, your advice 
can't be too valued."  Where the hell do you get off on this?  I'm not 
encouraging people to anything they don't want to, and I'm not embarrassed 
about what I do.  I'm not depriving anyone of income, or diseeminating 
"intellectual property" (another BS term).  I'm protecting my investment and 
my business.

	--jc

[snip]
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>  Have you fully read a "run of the mill" license agreement before you open
>  the package
>  (ie. it is binding and indicates you accept it)
>  If you don't then simply do either :
>  - Return it for full refund (you have that option !)
>  - Don't buy it (which you indicate you sometimes wisely opt for)
>
>  Acceptng a license and then cracking it "to work around HDD bla bla" is a
>  bunch of bullshit.
>
>  Reverse engineering your SW constitutes a breach of your license.
>  I respect your own reasons for it (although they seem more like a
> rationale to me)
>  but if you are publicly volunteering this, your advice can't be too
> valued.
>
>  -- Kris

Re: [lpc2100] Hi-Tech ARM tools

2003-11-20 by microbit

Hi John,

Now that you have elaborated further on the subject I sympathise with your
view/approach on the matter better, however my "at first glance" deduction
identified several "contradictio in terminis".

1.    You dogmatically stated that WIN98 is a toyOS and that I should run
WIN2K,
       because it's reliable - yet, you then go on to say that you reserve
the right to
       use a crack because Windows might "lunch itself".
       I thought your OS was reliable and mine is a toy ? I don't grasp,
please clarify ?

2.    You stated that you don't buy unless you can get a crack, but also
stated that
       when people can "steal" SW they wouldn't buy it anyway. Now, how can
you
       check that the purchase you are considering has a crack ? Surely by
being able
       to "steal it"... hence you wouldn't buy it anyway. It doesn't make
sense
       Again I must be missing something.

Please don't take offence John, I tend to "level" with people :
My last line "your advice can't be too valued" referred to your WIN2K advice
:
It more conveyed like a blunt dogma stuffed down my throat, rather than
advice.
So I bluntly stated my dogma, that was all.

IOW I personally find that you don't invite respect when you stuff things
down people's
throat, but merely dismay.


Look at the funny side of it, it reminds me of my all time favourite sketch
:
"The 5 minute argument" of Monty Python :
(Eric Idle) ".... You're not arguing with me, you're just negating what I'm
saying !!!!..."
(John Cleese)  "... No I'm not ....."


I think I know what you mean by putting Intellectual property between
quotes.
I watched "Antitrust" again last night, and the movie makes me think about
these kind of things.
If you wish, I'm open to discuss the matter with you off-forum because it
seems like I have been
fortunate to not have suffered the scope of failures you have. I would
convey as ignorant I guess,
but it's more that I wasn't aware. (The Matrix : "Ignorance is bliss" what a
brilliant line )

Next thing, I'll be using more metaphores than you can poke a stick at..
OOPS there I did it again. :-)

All the best, Kris

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