Xpantastic!

I have also considered replacing these displays. I see you guys have 
already found out that there is not a direct replacement. However, what 
you can do is look for old cash registers and/or industrial display 
equipment. The NEC displays were used quite a bit in the 80's, and 
there are still some floating around in electronic surplus stores.

Always try to turn your xpander off when not using it because VFD 
displays only have so many hours of use in them. 

Also, the matrix 12/ expander has every chip in a socket. This make 
repairs easy but sometimes the chips come lose in the socket. I have 
repaired mine several times by just pulling the parts out and reseating 
them. (Be very careful not to bend any leads).

On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Karl <shire03@...> wrote:
> I have also considered replacing these displays. I see you guys have
> already found out that there is not a direct replacement. However, what
> you can do is look for old cash registers and/or industrial display
> equipment. The NEC displays were used quite a bit in the 80's, and
> there are still some floating around in electronic surplus stores.

There a several surplus electronics store where I live.
If someone can get more specific info (Mfgr, model, part #) regarding
the cash registers, I will see if I can find some
at these stores.

Also- companies who serviced old cash registers may be a good source too

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Cappellini" <cappy2112@...> 
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Karl <shire03@...> wrote:
> > I have also considered replacing these displays. I see you guys have
> > already found out that there is not a direct replacement. However, 
what
> > you can do is look for old cash registers and/or industrial display
> > equipment. The NEC displays were used quite a bit in the 80's, and
> > there are still some floating around in electronic surplus stores.
> 
> There a several surplus electronics store where I live.
> If someone can get more specific info (Mfgr, model, part #) regarding
> the cash registers, I will see if I can find some
> at these stores.
> 
> Also- companies who serviced old cash registers may be a good source 
too
>

Hi Tony,
I am not sure of the cash register part numbers."NEC did make cash 
registers"  I used them in industrial displays found in factories. If 
you find an AIS (Advanced Industrial Systems) process display it has 
one. I have to do some digging but there were several compnaies who 
used the display.
More Later

Karl

I have a spare display (not I'm not selling it), I could probably
take the dimensions.
Didn't someone post a data sheet for the actual VFDs recently?

Isn't this info in the service manual?

On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 3:36 PM, PeWe <ha-pewe@gmx.de> wrote:
> AFAIK, the displays were used in Panasonic cashiers, model unknown.
>
> During my search for displays I´ve found this some time ago:
>
> Futaba M40SD04GR,- 40 digits in a row, but 5x7 dot matrix
>
> I´m not a tech, so I don´tknow if it´s usable or not or if it´s worth to
> think about any tweaks/mods ...
> I also never removed a display from my Xpander, so I´m not able to check the
> dimensions exactly,- maybe we have more experienced people here in the group
> ...
>
>
>
>
> Tony Cappellini schrieb:
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Karl <shire03@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> I have also considered replacing these displays. I see you guys have
>> already found out that there is not a direct replacement. However, what
>> you can do is look for old cash registers and/or industrial display
>> equipment. The NEC displays were used quite a bit in the 80's, and
>> there are still some floating around in electronic surplus stores.
>
> There a several surplus electronics store where I live.
> If someone can get more specific info (Mfgr, model, part #) regarding
> the cash registers, I will see if I can find some
> at these stores.
>
> Also- companies who serviced old cash registers may be a good source too
>
>

Hi PeWe,
 
I saw an alphanumeric on the Futaba site 40-SY-02G
http://www.futaba.com/products/displays/full/54-full.pdf
 
Looks to me like the alpha numeric could possibly be made to work, except
 
1. there's no underline segment
2. the leads are not in exactly the same physical locations as the old one, however this would not be a very difficult adaptation...
 
However the fact that it even exists gives me some hope that a workable replacement may be possible without customization?
 
Randy

--- On Wed, 8/6/08, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:

From: PeWe <ha-pewe@...>
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] VFD help
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:33 PM






I just looked in my service manual, the display infos appear in the "theory of operation" (page 12), "test and calibration" (pages 33/34) and "schematic diagrams"(pages 49/50),- but no dimensions unfortunally.

I have a full PDF of the Futaba M40SD04GR VFD, 40 characters in a row but 5x7 dot matrix, dimensions included.
You find it here:
http://www.futaba. com/products/ displays/ standard_ search/search. asp

The question is: Would this VFD translate well w/ an Xpander ?



Tony Cappellini schrieb: 


I have a spare display (not I'm not selling it), I could probably
take the dimensions.
Didn't someone post a data sheet for the actual VFDs recently?

Isn't this info in the service manual?

For Xpander display specifications and a high-resolution photo, please go to

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xpantastic/files/Documents/

and

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xpantastic/files/Pictures/

Hmm? Turning Xpander/M12 on and off several times daily in order to save the life-time 
of the VFD displays may not be a good idea. By the way, how long is the envisaged life-
time of these displays?

I'm considering this because I know that electronics may be kept turned constanly ON in 
many professional studios, because it is a fact that chips and other components most 
often fail when being switched on or off. I don't recommend, but you can prove this by 
switching your gear on and of repeatedly very many times, heh, heh.

In the Guinness World Record Book there was mentioned that the oldest light bulb was in 
a Firestation in Boston. If I remember correctly, it had been working without problems 
since 1860s! The reason was that it had never been switched off. 

I wish the manufactures would more carefully recommend what is best for their synth. I 
have only seen recommendations that you should avoid quickly turning the electronics on 
and off, and, that you should remove the power in case the synthesizer is not being used 
for a long period of time. Apple recommends Macs being switched off if not used for two 
days or more, but I suspect that old analog instruments don't like being switched off so 
often - unless they get otherwise too hot, which is bad too, ofcourse. This is a delicate 
problem, but what is really best for an old Xpander or Matrix-12, I don't know. In any 
case, I keep on switching them on and of on a daily basis, because I'm afraid letting them 
on, if there are no-one in the house.

Any other thoughts?

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "envia94" <akva@...> wrote:
>
> Hmm? Turning Xpander/M12 on and off several times daily in order to 
save the life-time 
> of the VFD displays may not be a good idea. By the way, how long is 
the envisaged life-
> time of these displays?
> 
> I'm considering this because I know that electronics may be kept 
turned constanly ON in 
> many professional studios, because it is a fact that chips and 
other components most 
> often fail when being switched on or off. I don't recommend, but 
you can prove this by 
> switching your gear on and of repeatedly very many times, heh, heh.
> 
> In the Guinness World Record Book there was mentioned that the 
oldest light bulb was in 
> a Firestation in Boston. If I remember correctly, it had been 
working without problems 
> since 1860s! The reason was that it had never been switched off. 
> 
> I wish the manufactures would more carefully recommend what is best 
for their synth. I 
> have only seen recommendations that you should avoid quickly 
turning the electronics on 
> and off, and, that you should remove the power in case the 
synthesizer is not being used 
> for a long period of time. Apple recommends Macs being switched off 
if not used for two 
> days or more, but I suspect that old analog instruments don't like 
being switched off so 
> often - unless they get otherwise too hot, which is bad too, 
ofcourse. This is a delicate 
> problem, but what is really best for an old Xpander or Matrix-12, I 
don't know. In any 
> case, I keep on switching them on and of on a daily basis, because 
I'm afraid letting them 
> on, if there are no-one in the house.
> 
> Any other thoughts?
>


You are correct. I should have been more clear. I would not keep 
switching the power on and off to save hours on the display. What I 
ment was, If your not using it leave it off. If your recording you 
would want to leave it on to stabilize the tuning anyway. 

I do not remember what the hours of life rating was on the displays,
but units that had been in the field for a year or so were much 
dimmer than new units. These units were on prety much 24/7  
 
The thing that scares me about my M12 is they use an early generation 
switching power supply for the 5 volts supply which are notorious for 
failing and taking everything else with them.

I think it's a good idea to turn everything off if your not going to 
be home for awhile, because you never know what may come down the 
power line. If you a scope on your powerline during an electrical 
storm (I use a 5000V scope probe) you will see huge spikes.
I have also sadly found that if your gone for a week or so, you 
better turn your water off too.

This is why light bulbs and other electrical devices fail on power 
up. The power on problem revolves around the line power phase angle 
at turn on. If your around the zero crossing point - no problem. If 
you happen to be near the top of the sine wave when you switch the 
power on you can generate one hell of a spike. Turning on a light 
bulb near the top of the sine wave can significntly shorten it's life.
I have an agilent power source/analyzer which can be setup to 
turn on at a specific phase angle, and I have proved this. If you 
want to avoid this problem there are devices out there called zero 
crossing detectors. These guys will hold the power off until the AC 
power is at the zero point, at which time the power is allowed to 
come on in a controlled way. One day I would like to add this to my 
home studio power.

j ai retenu qu il faut éviter de faire ce que je fais parfois : marche arrêt rapide ... j ai retenu qu il faut éviter de faire ce que je fais parfois :

Hey there,
There must be really good quality sockets in these Oberheims. It's 
the only electronic thing I have ever seen with a socket for every 
chip!! I have found chips just rattling around in other gizmos but 
never in my OB. I have an anvil case for mine and I have had problems 
were the keydeck moves a bit if it is stored on it's side during 
transport. I have a MATRIX 1000 that has just been through hell.
Except for a scratchy pot its works fine.

I agree the modern stuff seems very flimsy and buggy anymore. My emu 
XL7 has all kinds of soft bugs that will never be fixed by the 
manufacturer. I notice the european stuff (Nord or Virus) is very 
tough. A few weeks ago a friend sent me a MATRIX6 rack that he 
thought was fried. I opened it up and the ribbon cable had just 
fallen out. Yea
 

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi !
> 
> I think that´s all theory.
> If I remember right, I got my Xpander new in 1988 or 89 and most of 
the 
> year, all my gear was switched on for approx . 10 hrs a day in my 
> studio. I toured 1 or 2 times a year for approx. 2 1/2 month (one 
> tournament) a year, so sometimes 4-5 month in a year. During this 
time, 
> the gear was in the hand of my techs and in the hands of the daily 
> changing stage hand crews. The gear went in and out of trucks and 
in and 
> out of the cases, from the cold to the heat and vice versa,- and 
the 
> backline was switched to on 1 hr before soundcheck started and 
switched 
> off immmideatedly after show.
> Until now, I never had a blown PSU or failing Xpander exept one CEM 
> 3372. These chips seem to be the ones which go 1st.
> 
> But I had bad experiences w/ my Sequential Prophet V rev. 3.3 and 
the 
> Oberheim OB-8,- the power regulators blew several times caused by 
spikes 
> and/or brownouts resulting in a ~ 100Hz modulation of the audio 
signal 
> during shows which destroyed the sound of all the patches in 
memory. The 
> OB-8 got additional probs regarding system infos written in RAM,- 
the 
> spikes shot the RAM too.
> There were/are other machines being more sensitive to power spikes 
and 
> brownouts as well as power condition/stability,- the PPG 2.3 p.ex.
> So, the rule is: Use power conditioners and independent power 
> lines/circuits w/ quality grounding in your rooms.
> 
> Actually these days and w/ the use of virtual gear in addition ( I 
use a 
> OPX-Pro too...), I switch the old gear on if I use it and let it 
run 
> this day then before I switch it off, that seems to be the best 
here, 
> keeps the batterys alive, reloads the accus of my Sycologics and 
> prevents batterys from leakage.
> 
> I also have a CEM chip version of a MKS80, MKS70, DPX-1 (x2), 
DX7mkIIFD, 
> TX816, TGs, Akai Samplers, EMU stuff, D550, M1Rex, Wavestation, SG 
Rack, 
> Matrix 1000, drummachines and outboard,- all is working since 
decades 
> and I rarely have service situations.
> 
> It´s a good idea to keep all this alive IMO,- the computer related 
stuff 
> isn´t nearly as reliable compared to the old hardware.
> In deed, I sometimes look for more actual hardware instruments to 
> replace the old ones because of the interest to get a smaller rig.
> What I find in the shops is gear w/ buggy operating systems all 
over, 
> non functional concepts, all promises and you wait years for the 
fixes. 
> Plastic cases and wimpy connectors in addition and cheap knobs, 
wheels, 
> sliders and keyboards as well.
> Hi prices and a duration/reliability of 3-5 years not to mention 
what 
> you´ll get if you try to get rid of it.
> 
> 
> 
> envia94 schrieb:
> >
> > Hmm? Turning Xpander/M12 on and off several times daily in order 
to 
> > save the life-time
> > of the VFD displays may not be a good idea. By the way, how long 
is 
> > the envisaged life-
> > time of these displays?
> >
> > I'm considering this because I know that electronics may be kept 
> > turned constanly ON in
> > many professional studios, because it is a fact that chips and 
other 
> > components most
> > often fail when being switched on or off. I don't recommend, but 
you 
> > can prove this by
> > switching your gear on and of repeatedly very many times, heh, 
heh.

> >
> >
>

> There must be really good quality sockets in these Oberheims. It's
> the only electronic thing I have ever seen with a socket for every
> chip!! I have found chips just rattling around in other gizmos but
> never in my OB. I have an anvil case for mine and I have had problems
> were the keydeck moves a bit if it is stored on it's side during
> transport. I have a MATRIX 1000 that has just been through hell.

I think my Matrix 1000 had all the chips soldered in, from what I
remember. Its been almost 8 years now since I've owned it.

Hey,

I gotta be more specific. The Matrix 12 and Expanders are the only 
synths I have seen that have all of the integrated circuits in 
sockets. This allows easy repairs as well as some customizing. I have 
read were some guys replaced the generic op-amps with low noise
high performance types. I have never done this, but one of these days 
l would like to try it.

The matrix 6 and 1000 only have the CEM voice chips, microproccessor, 
DAC  and EPROM in sockets.


--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Cappellini" <cappy2112@...> 
wrote:
>
> > There must be really good quality sockets in these Oberheims. It's
> > the only electronic thing I have ever seen with a socket for every
> > chip!! I have found chips just rattling around in other gizmos but
> > never in my OB. I have an anvil case for mine and I have had 
problems

> > were the keydeck moves a bit if it is stored on it's side during
> > transport. I have a MATRIX 1000 that has just been through hell.
> 
> I think my Matrix 1000 had all the chips soldered in, from what I
> remember. Its been almost 8 years now since I've owned it.
>

Many of the ICs in my oB8 are socketed as well.
I've unplugged the Z80 & some of the CEMs, but I dont rememember which ones.

When I worked as a technician, sockets were only for prototyping,
never went into production because of reliability issues.
My Xpander is still chugging away after all these years though!

Yes, my virus clasic can't compete with real analogs on the high end. 
But my electro 73 is one thick pup(organ sound).  


--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:

>
> 
> Yep, but both w/ the exception of relatively thin sounding and the 
> aliasing they introduce in the high ranges ...
> 
> Karl schrieb:
> >
> > I notice the european stuff (Nord or Virus) is very
> > tough.
> >
> > .
> >
> >
>

Hi PeWe,
You know I looked at the C1 but like all synth co's they did not 
stagger the keyboard like a real organ. This is a big deal to me.
I also like to actually play the instrument and this is a clumsy 
way of doing things. Also the Lesli simulation is just not swishy 
enough compared to the real thing. 

I bought the little clasic virus because it has it's roots in the 
matrix 6.  ACCESS actually made a realtime programmer for the M1000
for it's first product. The biggest problem with it is, not enough 
MOD slots, and like the M1000 it takes forever to find the sound you 
want. 
  
BTW I notice all my DSP based keys: ELCTRO 73, Virus, and V-Synth 
have a rubbery kind of quality to the sound. Not that they all sound 
the same but they all share some sonic aspects. 

Karl II

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:
>
> Yep,- the Nord C1 organ is the only Clavia instrument which I´m 
> interested in for next future.
> Depending on combo ( piano, e-piano, clavs and so on ) 
> instruments/midi-controllers,- the Kurzweil PC3X will be my choice 
>if 
> the OS is ready, bugs fixed and a printed manual available.
> Synth wise,- I keep my eye on a John Bowen Solaris.
> 
> The Virus TI is a very interesting synth depending on features, 
look,- 
> but for me it is too much techno/ dance orientated.
> I´m not so much interested in patches being deigned for sequences, 
>gated 
> pads and arpeggiators and beside I prefer real playing w/ my hands 
>and 
> w/ musicaly usefull sounds ( matter of taste), I don´t want to edit 
> thousands of factory-presets for my demands which definitely is too 
> much 
> time consuming for me.
> 
> My impression is, I can get all these sounds of Virusses and Nord 
Leads 
> also by using software synths.
> I have almost any of the NI stuff (except Traktor and Kore2), the 
> OPX-Pro and not to forget,- Reason4 ...
> My favourites are OPX-Pro and Thor then ...
> 
> And:
> http://www.memorymoon.com/index.html
> 
> But even if I´ll sell most of my racked modules next future to cut 
down 
> the rig,- I´ll try to keep my Xpander, Minimoog and eventually TG77 
(for 
> FM) alive if possible.
> 
> :-)
> 
> 
> 
> Karl schrieb:
> >
> > Yes, my virus clasic can't compete with real analogs on the high 
end.

> > But my electro 73 is one thick pup(organ sound).
> >
>

Hi PeWe,

Brian Auger is awsome!!!! 
I actually got some pretty close B3 on the 
M12 by layering 3 voices to get up to 5 oscillators(drawbars) 
and 1 osc for perc. Once when I was working on a Lesie I plugged the 
12 in to it - pretty nice sounding.    
BTW The best Leslie sim I have found is in the cheap Lexicon MPX110.

The ramp-down time of a Leslie is controlled by an RC network with 
some wide tolerances in the components like 20% for the cap and 5%
for the resistor. This can put the timing all over the place. 

I don't take my M12 out anymore. I keep having this re-occuring 
nightmare where a drunk guitarist spills his box of wine on it.
So I got the virus cause it can come close. It really dosen't have 
the headroom for the massive layered patches, so you have to set all 
the levels very carefully. If not, you get this horible digital 
distortion. 
 
Yeah, I have moved some patches between my M1000 and M12 and mostly 
they translate pretty well. Except the glide on the M1000/M6 has all 
kinds of issues. The M1000 works better, but still not as fast as the 
M12.  

Am I reading these posts wrong? I thought your name is also Karl so I 
just added the II to diferentiate. Sorry no royalty in my family,
but it would be nice to get hold of an VCS3.

Karl the lowborn

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, the Leslie sims w/ all clones are somewhat different,- in the 
case 
> of the C1 compared to a real Leslie, the speeding down of the low 
rotor 
> is too fast w/ the C1. But we should have in mind, every Leslie 
cabinet 
> is different too because of it´s mechanical tolerances as also age 
of 
> mechanical and electrical parts and quality of maintenance over the 
time.
> It´s OT here anyway, but for me, the C1 has some advantages over 
the 
> XK3c ( which sounds amazing btw),- it´s the price for a dual 
waterfall 
> keyboard organ compared to a single keyboard organ,- and the size 
and 
> weight = portability.
> Depending on the leslie sim, I don´t care too much,- I´m a big 
Brian 
> Auger fan since my age of 17 ( oh it was 1972...) and I love a 
straight 
> Hammond sound w/ 2nd perc/soft, chorus C3 and overdriven.
> 
> Depending on the Matrix 6/Matrix 1000,- I have one in addition to 
the 
> Xpander,- and I put the sounds I want into the 1st RAM-bank and 
that´s 
> it then. It´s a good toy for doing layers w/ other tone generators, 
FM p.ex.
> Matrix 1000 as also Xpander/Matrix12 aren´t synths w/ fast 
attack>fast 
> envelopes, - so they blend well w/ DX/TX sounds.
> 
> B.t.w.,- I also have the "Xpander Bankloader" including all the 
Matrix 
> 1000 banks/preset sounds programmed for the Xpander.
> 
> Yep, the shared sonic aspect is the aliasing,- all three have it ( 
the 
> Electro also w/ synth sounds ), - no wonder, it´s digital.
> 
> Karl, you sign w/ the name of an english king (1630-1685),- I hope 
you 
> own and perform on british synths too,- maybe OSCAR ...
> 
> :-)))
> 
> 
> Karl schrieb:
> >
> > Hi PeWe,
> > You know I looked at the C1 but like all synth co's they did not
> > stagger the keyboard like a real organ. This is a big deal to me.
> > I also like to actually play the instrument and this is a clumsy
> > way of doing things. Also the Lesli simulation is just not swishy
> > enough compared to the real thing.
> >
> > I bought the little clasic virus because it has it's roots in the
> > matrix 6. ACCESS actually made a realtime programmer for the M1000
> > for it's first product. The biggest problem with it is, not enough
> > MOD slots, and like the M1000 it takes forever to find the sound 
you
> > want.
> >
> > BTW I notice all my DSP based keys: ELCTRO 73, Virus, and V-Synth
> > have a rubbery kind of quality to the sound. Not that they all 
sound

> > the same but they all share some sonic aspects.
> >
> > Karl II
> >
> > .
> >
> >
>

Hey there PeWe,

I have a Marshall M9000 Tube preamp that I run stuff through. It has 
three tubes + an EQ. Now I normally shy away from guitar FX because 
of the limited bandwith but this guy can make things absolutly 
raunchy to get get that stepenwolf / deep purple kind of sound. 

I saw weather report once, Wayne and Joko were there also. Joe was 
one of the greats no-dobt.

In my book there are two kinds of Keyboards- Ones which are good in 
the studio And ones that sound good with a band. The M12 / Expander ( 
and other analogs) do both pretty well. I think the hi-poly digital 
junk works in the studio because the player is all by himself 
(usually has too much verb on it) and he can balance and sonicly 
tweak everything. Im sure you know that on stage with a band your 
always fighting for sonic space with guitar players. You need an in 
your face keyboard which can compete. Often when I listen to a 
recorded keyboard track all by itself It may sound awful. But mixed 
with Guitar/Bass/Drum everything sounds great. My V-Synth is cool and 
does some amazing things but with a band it seems to always be 
lacking. BTW Roland fixed that switching between complex patches with 
the FX on with the V-synth. When you change patches Your last delays 
and echo will still finish out. 

I have tweaked up some amazingly thick sounds on my M1000.  I'm gonna 
have to make some MP3's and show everybody. 

Yeah, I kept thinking the same thing about the VIRUS TI, It has 20 
bits on the output DAC which helps the headroom issue.  But be 
warned, after binging on my Clasic VI for a few weeks, everything in 
it sounds all sprongy like a bunch of springs and I care less for it 
then when I bought it. 

The guitar player thing was just me joking around.  Years ago this 
happened to me and he ruined my Crumar Toccata.  ( they will never 
find the body )

Please excuse my ignorance but what does schrieb mean?


Karl


--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Karl !
> 
> Well, up to now I do organ sounds w/ synths too and use a Chandler 
Tube 
> Driver 19", Rocktron300A compressor and Dynacord DLS 223 ( upgraded 
to 
> DLS300) for overdrive and Leslie sim. It´s not comparable to any 
> original Hammond/Leslie setup, but pretty small and agressive. I 
also 
> had a Dynacord CLS222 in the past as also a Korg CX3 ...
> 
> Because I´m a keyboardist and not a traditonal piano player, I ever 
> liked to tweak and program w/ resulting in a more personel sound, 
not 
> immitating natural instruments to a perfection.
> Joe Zawinul did impressing string arrangements w/ unperfect 
synthesized 
> string sounds of SCI Prophets as also did Lyle Mays w/ Pat Metheny. 
So,- 
> the voicing makes the music, not the instrument itself.
> 
> For the future :
> Be careful w/ that posing fools,- no serious musician is drunk on 
stage 
> and carries his drinks around between all the gear.
> For the very stupid ones don´t miss to put white gaffer tape 
strips - 
> "No Drinks On Gear"- on every rack, console and so on ..., hire a 
husky 
> personel tech/crewguy to watch over your gear or break the posers 
> guitar-neck and annonce to discuss about his own neck later.
> 
> Hmmm, the Virus TI keyboard,- it´s so good looking, has wheels 
(!!!), 
> has a very functional and clear layout of the panel and has so much 
> great features,- I often had in mind "that´s it" ...
> But w/ all these hi-polyphony modern DSP machines it is the same,- 
> switch off the FX  and layers and you´ll be disappointed by the 
tone.
> The disappointment w/ a tone for me just starts if a synth has DCOs 
> instead of VCOs, so I had this happen also w/ a Jupiter 6, 
Prophet600 
> and I´m also slightly disappointed w/ the tone of a Matrix 6 or 
1000,- 
> these are additional toys for me and a MKS70, which has DCOs too, 
for me 
> is a great pad synth only, but this is what this machine does 
perfect.
> 
> I have exactly 3 synths which don´t need any layering,- Minimoog, 
> Xpander and MKS80 w/ Curtis CEM,- just put a little room on ´em and 
you 
> go for leads, sidelines and pads. Keep ´em dry for the basses.
> Polyphony:
> Every serious musician w/ music theory background knows you can 
> demonstrate each existing chord w/ 4 voices only,- this is how a 
string 
> quartet works and why Oberheim 4-Voice synths w/ SEMs worked pretty 
well 
> in the past. So,- w/ a great sounding instrument, you´ll never need 
128 
> voices at all.
> 
> Hi polyphony is neccessary if someone needs to get all of the 
sounds, he 
> needs for a performance of one tune, out of one machine 
simultaneously.
> O.k., there might be players who need that, but then it must be a 
> machine with great headroom because 128 voices are significantly 
louder 
> than 6, 8, 12, 16 or 64 maybe ...
> 
> Next prob which comes up w/ all these complex hi polyphony, multi 
> layering, insert FX, global FX, mastering FX machines is:
> Switching these complex performance patches fast during a live 
> performance and within tunes without cutting FX and voices,- 
impossible. 
> All promise, no satisfies.
> 
> Depending on sound quality of digital instruments, there are more 
> problems,- p.ex. the multiplexing regarding master outputs and add. 
> single outputs,- most instruments have no separate DACs for the 
single 
> outs. Remember the AKAI samplers, only a S1100 has separate Burr 
Brown 
> DACs for it´s single outputs each.
> 
> Or a limit to 16Bits/44.1k, which might be satisfying w/ only one 
patch 
> but not w/ a layer of 4 or 8 patches where all the patches in a 
> split/layer configuration have to part the 16 available bits which 
> reduces headroom for each patch dramatically.
> 
> Regarding my name,- no I´m not Karl. PeWe is my regular nickname in 
real 
> life, not only for the mails.
> But there were mails mixed up here before ...
> 
> EMS VCS3,- if you probably are a NI Reaktor user,- you´ll find it 
in the 

> NI Reaktor user library for free and w/ great functionality.
> It´s called "synth in a case" (SIAC) there ...
> 
> Peter the Gun
> 
>

Hey there PeWe,

In my book there are two kinds of Keyboards- Ones which are good in
the studio And ones that sound good with a band. The M12 / Expander (
and other analogs) do both pretty well.

Im sure you know that on stage with a band your
always fighting for sonic space with guitar players. You need an in
your face keyboard which can compete.

Often when I listen to a
recorded keyboard track all by itself It may sound awful. But mixed
with Guitar/Bass/Drum everything sounds great.

My V-Synth is cool and
does some amazing things but with a band it seems to always be
lacking. BTW Roland fixed that switching between complex patches with
the FX on with the V-synth.

Please excuse my ignorance but what does schrieb mean?

Karl

Karl wrote:
> Hey there PeWe,
> The guitar player thing was just me joking around.  Years ago this 
> happened to me and he ruined my Crumar Toccata.  ( they will never 
> find the body )
>
> Please excuse my ignorance but what does schrieb mean?
>
>   

Funny, I just bought a Crumar Toccata off Ebay (albeit with 3 broken keys).

Cheers,

Jeremy.

Hi PeWe,

> PeWe Wrote:
> A good example is the Korg M1 or M1R(ex)modules. These have a 
> general peak @ ~4KHz and nothing over 10KHz,- > so 
> you know where you can use it and where not.

I could not have thought of a better example than the Korg M1,  That 
was, and still is a great example of a "band" keyboard. I have one 
stored over at a friends studio.   

> Pewe wrote:
> All the time, I see V-Synths on stage w/ loud bands, the 
> keyboardists play distorted guitar patches,- even Jordan Rudess 
> does.
> One exception, I´ve seen Barbara Thompson Paraphenelia w/ Jon 
> Hiseman (Colosseum) on drums. This was a more quiet jazz like band 
> w/ a violin player in addition. The keyboardist performed on a 
> Kawai MP8 stage > piano and the V-Synth, mostly for the ethno-like 
> and atmospheric pads. 
> that worked well in that context, but all sounded very polished and 
> there was enough space in the music for this.

And yes, the V-Synth has a great distorted guitar patch. That can 
actually bring your guitar player to tears when you start using the 
light controller and warping the sound around. But does the world 
really need another guitar player. I am there to play keyboards. What 
the V-Synth excels at is Vocal -Type sounds. " The Monk Chanting is 
always a show stopper". As you point out the right context is key.

Karl