Casio CZ/ VZ/ FZ - Pro Series

Howdy to all,

   I was invited to join this list- so I'm stopping by and introducing 
myself.
   I am a VZ8m owner (sold my CZ-1 this year)- and I used to 
program the VZ10m manually in the early 90's.
   I have listened to every ROM sound that Casio released for the 
VZ's (Power, Tokyo, etc...) and produced a bank of my own that 
was sold commercially for awhile. (I have a current - new bank 
for the VZ8m that I need to post- and share as soon as I get off 
my a*#).

   For those of you who are new to the VZ I'd like to share a few 
comments on my assesment of iPD based on my own 
experience.

   The VZ is not just different from FM- to my ears it is inferior.
-you heard right- I said inferior (yes it's only my opinion).
Why would I say such a thing about my beloved VZ ?
- well- I tend to use my TX81z more than my VZ.
But the TX is 12 bit and the VZ is 16 bit- should'nt the VZ be a 
little better ?- yes it should- but it really lacks the BITE you get 
from FM (that's the best word I can think of to describe it).
   I would actually prefer to have a rackmount 16 bit CZ-1 with 16 
voices over a VZ10m/8m (I sold my CZ-1 cause I needed the 
space). The ring mod and pseudo PWM from a CZ is better (to 
my ears) than the ring mod and PD on a VZ.
   The VZ can still make some good sounds- and I have spent so 
much time programming the VZ that I can't give the darn thing 
up- but since I have so many other synths I find that the VZ 
makes it into my compisitions less and less these days.
  So what good is it ?- the VZ is one of the best electronic 
sounding Bargain synths you can find today- and it is a real 
challange to program.

sorry for the long post- i'll be posting a link to my sounds for the 
VZ soon (at which time I'll expect scathing reviews from Summa)
I'm crossposting this VZ opinion on the EZVZ page.

Todd S.
http://users.ev1.net/~xpander/SMCChome.html

Hi Todd,

so you finaly found the list... ;)

>
>   I was invited to join this list- so I'm stopping by and introducing 
>myself.
>   I am a VZ8m owner (sold my CZ-1 this year)- and I used to 
>program the VZ10m manually in the early 90's.
>   I have listened to every ROM sound that Casio released for the 
>VZ's (Power, Tokyo, etc...) and produced a bank of my own that 
>was sold commercially for awhile. (I have a current - new bank 
>for the VZ8m that I need to post- and share as soon as I get off 
>my a*#).

That would be nice, you could upload it to the files section if you want!
I'm quite curious about your sounds....

>   For those of you who are new to the VZ I'd like to share a few 
>comments on my assesment of iPD based on my own 
>experience.
>
>   The VZ is not just different from FM- to my ears it is inferior.

I compared the output of the VZ-1 to the FS1R and with certain setting I got
the same results...
The frequency Ratio between two VZ oscillators set to phase is 1:2 (I first
thought it's 1:1 but that was a mistake)... If I use the same waveforms with
the FS1R I get (with slight differences) the same outputs...
If you use another "phased" pair of oscillators and connect those 2 pairs
with phase you can adjust the frequencies of the pairs (unfortunately not of
the single osc.) and then (when I'm not mistaken) you'll get the following
FM algorithm....  

1
|
2 3
 \| 
  4  

When you set the connection between 1 and 2 to mix you'd get (not 100% sure,
since I'm still have to try out certain settings to prove...)

1 2 3
\ | /
  4


>-you heard right- I said inferior (yes it's only my opinion).
>Why would I say such a thing about my beloved VZ ?
>- well- I tend to use my TX81z more than my VZ.
>But the TX is 12 bit and the VZ is 16 bit- should'nt the VZ be a 
>little better ?- yes it should- but it really lacks the BITE you get 
>from FM (that's the best word I can think of to describe it).

The TX81z has (as far as I know) 16 Bit converters too, at least according
to a german magazine... anyway the TX sounds colder and more metallic, more
crispy and quite agressive, that's true. But most synths have problems to
sounds that crispy and the VZ can be quite agressive too. 
Due to the saw waveforms and the VZ can create richer an warmer sounds then
the TX, I even created nice warm Pad and impressive voice/choir sounds ...
the TX waveforms are less rich on overtones ok, feeback can help a lot, but
it's limited to one operator...  
Also the ringmodulation of the VZ enables this thing to create sounds an FM
synth can't do...

> I would actually prefer to have a rackmount 16 bit CZ-1 with 16 
>voices over a VZ10m/8m (I sold my CZ-1 cause I needed the 
>space). The ring mod and pseudo PWM from a CZ is better (to 
>my ears) than the ring mod and PD on a VZ.

It's different since the ringmod (to be true it's Amplitudenmodulation) on
the CZ is -different to most other synths execpt the K5000- behind the
"Filters" (Pseudo filters - called DCW) that way it's far more flexible then
in most other synthesizers... 

> The VZ can still make some good sounds- and I have spent so 
> much time programming the VZ that I can't give the darn thing 
> up- but since I have so many other synths I find that the VZ 
> makes it into my compisitions less and less these days.

It's all a matter of taste...

>  So what good is it ?- the VZ is one of the best electronic 
> sounding Bargain synths you can find today- and it is a real 
> challange to program.
>
>sorry for the long post- i'll be posting a link to my sounds for the 
>VZ soon (at which time I'll expect scathing reviews from Summa)

Do I realy have that bad image out there? Ok, I like a good discussion, that
may could be missunderstanding... Maybe my english just isn't good enough so
I may sound rude?  

>I'm crossposting this VZ opinion on the EZVZ page.

Why? :) I have nothing to do with that page...

Regards!
      Summa

			     
           +                        
           +                       
           +     /\      /\         
        /\ +  /\/  \    /  \        
+++++++/++\++/++++++\++/+++ \    /\  /\         /    O   
      /    \/        \/      \  /  \/  \ |   | /     |  /----
 /\  /     +                  \/        \\---/ ----  |  |
/  \/      +                  /\                  /     \----
           +                 /  \                / 
           +                 Nicknames  : Summa or SumGhost
           +                 AIM        : Flotorian
           +                 Born       : 1967
           +                 Profession : Student of Computer Science
           +	                     

A Touch of Future - Project : http://www.mp3.com/AToF/
Casio CZ Synth Station      : http://www.mp3.com/stations/CZ/ 
CZ/VZ Mailinglist           : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth

Boycott the Premium Artist Service!!!


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--- In CZsynth@y..., Summa <flotorian@y...> wrote:
> Hi Todd,
> 
> so you finaly found the list... ;)

Hey Summa-
Just found it cause you told me of its' existance.

> I compared the output of the VZ-1 to the FS1R and with certain 
setting I got
> the same results...
> The frequency Ratio between two VZ oscillators set to phase is 
1:2 (I first
> thought it's 1:1 but that was a mistake)... If I use the same 
waveforms with
> the FS1R I get (with slight differences) the same outputs...
> If you use another "phased" pair of oscillators and connect 
those 2 pairs
> with phase you can adjust the frequencies of the pairs 
(unfortunately not of
> the single osc.) and then (when I'm not mistaken) you'll get the 
following
> FM algorithm....  
> 
> 1
> |
> 2 3
>  \| 
>   4  

I'm not sure this is mathematically the same thing- I know it is 
sonically similar (due to a factory VZ slap Bass sound that has a 
very similar sounding DX FM equivalent).

> When you set the connection between 1 and 2 to mix you'd get 
(not 100% sure,
> since I'm still have to try out certain settings to prove...)
> 
> 1 2 3
> \ | /
>   4

That implies 1,2, and 3 are equally phase modulating 4- I don't 
recall the VZ being able to do that - but you're probably correct 
(you are assembling that tutorial !).

> 
> >-you heard right- I said inferior (yes it's only my opinion).
> >Why would I say such a thing about my beloved VZ ?
> >- well- I tend to use my TX81z more than my VZ.
> >But the TX is 12 bit and the VZ is 16 bit- should'nt the VZ be a 
> >little better ?- yes it should- but it really lacks the BITE you get 
> >from FM (that's the best word I can think of to describe it).
> 
> The TX81z has (as far as I know) 16 Bit converters too, at least 
according
> to a german magazine... anyway the TX sounds colder and 
more metallic, more
> crispy and quite agressive, that's true. But most synths have 
problems to
> sounds that crispy and the VZ can be quite agressive too. 
> Due to the saw waveforms and the VZ can create richer an 
warmer sounds then
> the TX, I even created nice warm Pad and impressive 
voice/choir sounds ...
> the TX waveforms are less rich on overtones ok, feeback can 
help a lot, but
> it's limited to one operator...  
> Also the ringmodulation of the VZ enables this thing to create 
sounds an FM
> synth can't do...

The TX81z has 12 bit DACs (as does the original DX7) the FB01 
had 10 bit DACs (TX802 & DX7II have 16 bit DACS). Remember 
Summa- Ringmod and FM create the SAME sidebands at select 
mod indexes- so they can sound very similar (and in some 
cases exactly the same).

> It's all a matter of taste...

most definitely !

> >sorry for the long post- i'll be posting a link to my sounds for 
the 
> >VZ soon (at which time I'll expect scathing reviews from 
Summa)
> 
> Do I realy have that bad image out there? Ok, I like a good 
discussion, that
> may could be missunderstanding... Maybe my english just isn't 
good enough so
> I may sound rude?  

Not at all- you have a kind web presence- (& I'm envious of 
anyone who's multi-lingual- I only speak Texan)- I just expect 
heavy criticism on my sounds due to my harsh opinions.

> >I'm crossposting this VZ opinion on the EZVZ page.
> 
> Why? :) I have nothing to do with that page...

I know- I'm just letting folks know so they don't think I'm being 
overly redundant  (sharing with other VZ'rs who aren't on this list)

Todd ;-)

Hey, Todd!

I just bought VZ-8M, and the seller is shipping it to me via UPS.  I notice
on the tracking information that the package only weighs 5 pounds.  Does
that sound legit to you?  Does the VZ-8M weigh around 5 pounds?  Thanks for
answering a paranoid question...

-- jp


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 18:35 08.06.01 -0000, you wrote:
>--- In CZsynth@y..., Summa <flotorian@y...> wrote:
>> Hi Todd,
>> 
>> so you finaly found the list... ;)
>
>Hey Summa-
>Just found it cause you told me of its' existance.

Just was a little remark since it wasn't the first time I talked about that
list in one of my K5k postings... ;)

>> I compared the output of the VZ-1 to the FS1R and with certain 
>setting I got
>> the same results...
>> The frequency Ratio between two VZ oscillators set to phase is 
>1:2 (I first
>> thought it's 1:1 but that was a mistake)... If I use the same 
>waveforms with
>> the FS1R I get (with slight differences) the same outputs...
>> If you use another "phased" pair of oscillators and connect 
>those 2 pairs
>> with phase you can adjust the frequencies of the pairs 
>(unfortunately not of
>> the single osc.) and then (when I'm not mistaken) you'll get the 
>following
>> FM algorithm....  
>> 
>> 1
>> |
>> 2 3
>>  \| 
>>   4  
>
>I'm not sure this is mathematically the same thing- I know it is 
>sonically similar (due to a factory VZ slap Bass sound that has a 
>very similar sounding DX FM equivalent).
>
>> When you set the connection between 1 and 2 to mix you'd get 
>(not 100% sure,
>> since I'm still have to try out certain settings to prove...)
>> 
>> 1 2 3
>> \ | /
>>   4
>
>That implies 1,2, and 3 are equally phase modulating 4- I don't 
>recall the VZ being able to do that - but you're probably correct 
>(you are assembling that tutorial !).

As I said I'm not 100% sure, but it seems so, when you create the "phase"
connection between two pairs everything that normaly gets to the output no
matter if it set to mix or ring or phase modulates the carrier of the next
pair... 
 
>> >-you heard right- I said inferior (yes it's only my opinion).
>> >Why would I say such a thing about my beloved VZ ?
>> >- well- I tend to use my TX81z more than my VZ.
>> >But the TX is 12 bit and the VZ is 16 bit- should'nt the VZ be a 
>> >little better ?- yes it should- but it really lacks the BITE you get 
>> >from FM (that's the best word I can think of to describe it).
>> 
>> The TX81z has (as far as I know) 16 Bit converters too, at least 
>according
>> to a german magazine... anyway the TX sounds colder and 
>more metallic, more
>> crispy and quite agressive, that's true. But most synths have 
>problems to
>> sounds that crispy and the VZ can be quite agressive too. 
>> Due to the saw waveforms and the VZ can create richer an 
>warmer sounds then
>> the TX, I even created nice warm Pad and impressive 
>voice/choir sounds ...
>> the TX waveforms are less rich on overtones ok, feeback can 
>help a lot, but
>> it's limited to one operator...  
>> Also the ringmodulation of the VZ enables this thing to create 
>sounds an FM
>> synth can't do...
>
>The TX81z has 12 bit DACs (as does the original DX7) the FB01 

The first generation of DX synths work with 10 Bits (DX7, DX9, FB01, DX21,
TX816 ...) 

>had 10 bit DACs (TX802 & DX7II have 16 bit DACS). Remember 

The TX81z was released 87 (also the year I bought mine) together with
DX7II/IID/S, TX802  that work with 16 Bit DACs too 

>Summa- Ringmod and FM create the SAME sidebands at select 
>mod indexes- so they can sound very similar (and in some 
>cases exactly the same).

Yep, you can create similar sounds, but with different parameter setting,
anyway I also tested the VZ - FM with the Saw waveforms of the VZ and since
the FS1R is also able to create a halfway usable Saw, I got the same results... 

Also when you look at the description Yamaha did in their patents and
compare it to the description Casio made in the CZ manual, you probably (if
they described it the same way in the english version of the manual) find it
to be very similar 

http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04175464__
http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04249447__

Also the DX synth isn't an FM synth it's an Phase Modulation synth... you'll
recognise that when you using set the modulator of your FS1R to fixed and a
low frequency to use it like an LFO and modulate a Carrier with for instance
the ALL1 waveform and skirt set to 7... you will hear a phasing instead of a
vibrato... I was kind of confused when I discoverd that...

Also look at this URL for further descriptions....

http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/audio/misc/pm-intro

>> It's all a matter of taste...
>
>most definitely !
>
>> >sorry for the long post- i'll be posting a link to my sounds for 
>the 
>> >VZ soon (at which time I'll expect scathing reviews from 
>Summa)
>> 
>> Do I realy have that bad image out there? Ok, I like a good 
>discussion, that
>> may could be missunderstanding... Maybe my english just isn't 
>good enough so
>> I may sound rude?  
>
>Not at all- you have a kind web presence- (& I'm envious of 
>anyone who's multi-lingual- I only speak Texan)- I just expect 
>heavy criticism on my sounds due to my harsh opinions.

I had to learn english in school, other then that I enjoy watching for
instance Star Trek and some movies in english, since some words/jokes etc.
get lost with the tranlation... 

For me it's totaly ok if someone has harsh opinions as long as he states
them appropriate. 

>> >I'm crossposting this VZ opinion on the EZVZ page.
>> 
>> Why? :) I have nothing to do with that page...
>
>I know- I'm just letting folks know so they don't think I'm being 
>overly redundant  (sharing with other VZ'rs who aren't on this list)

Well, this is a free internet ;)

I maybe take a look at that page to see if you get a reaction ... 

Summa


			     
           +                        
           +                       
           +     /\      /\         
        /\ +  /\/  \    /  \        
+++++++/++\++/++++++\++/+++ \    /\  /\         /    O   
      /    \/        \/      \  /  \/  \ |   | /     |  /----
 /\  /     +                  \/        \\---/ ----  |  |
/  \/      +                  /\                  /     \----
           +                 /  \                / 
           +                 Nicknames  : Summa or SumGhost
           +                 AIM        : Flotorian
           +                 Born       : 1967
           +                 Profession : Student of Computer Science
           +	                     

A Touch of Future - Project : http://www.mp3.com/AToF/
Casio CZ Synth Station      : http://www.mp3.com/stations/CZ/ 
CZ/VZ Mailinglist           : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth

Boycott the Premium Artist Service!!!


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi JP,

  According to the manual - the VZ8m is 4.0 Kg (or 8.8 lbs)
- that's more than the TX81z which is 3.4 Kg.

Dimensions of VZ8m = 19"x 11 13/16" x 2 1/8"

I wouldn't get paraniod just yet- people commonly get shipping weight 
wrong.

Todd :)

--- In CZsynth@y..., "jwp" <forms@s...> wrote:
> Hey, Todd!
> 
> I just bought VZ-8M, and the seller is shipping it to me via UPS.  I 
notice
> on the tracking information that the package only weighs 5 pounds.  
Does
> that sound legit to you?  Does the VZ-8M weigh around 5 pounds?  
Thanks for

> answering a paranoid question...
> 
> -- jp
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I checked the manual- and you can indeed modulate 4 in equal amounts 
by 1,2, & 3 at the same time.

Those links make my head spin (as did the Phase equations in john 
Cownings patent when I first read them years ago).

Summa- I'm a bit surprised that you present different info on the DAC 
resolution of the DX series. I pride myself on providing uesful and 
accurate information. If i'm wrong, I'd sure like to know.

Can you confirm your source of the TX81z being 16 bit ?

--- In CZsynth@y..., Summa <flotorian@y...> wrote:
> At 18:35 08.06.01 -0000, you wrote:
> >--- In CZsynth@y..., Summa <flotorian@y...> wrote:
>> 
> >> 1 2 3
> >> \ | /
> >>   4
> >
> >That implies 1,2, and 3 are equally phase modulating 4- I don't 
> >recall the VZ being able to do that - but you're probably correct 
> >(you are assembling that tutorial !).
> >
> >The TX81z has 12 bit DACs (as does the original DX7) the FB01 
> 
> The first generation of DX synths work with 10 Bits (DX7, DX9, FB01, 
DX21,
> TX816 ...) 
> 
> >had 10 bit DACs (TX802 & DX7II have 16 bit DACS). Remember 
> 
> The TX81z was released 87 (also the year I bought mine) together 
with
> DX7II/IID/S, TX802  that work with 16 Bit DACs too 
> 
> >Summa- Ringmod and FM create the SAME sidebands at select 
> >mod indexes- so they can sound very similar (and in some 
> >cases exactly the same).
> 
> Yep, you can create similar sounds, but with different parameter 
setting,
> anyway I also tested the VZ - FM with the Saw waveforms of the VZ 
and since
> the FS1R is also able to create a halfway usable Saw, I got the same 
results... 
> 
> Also when you look at the description Yamaha did in their patents 
and
> compare it to the description Casio made in the CZ manual, you 
probably (if
> they described it the same way in the english version of the manual) 
find it
> to be very similar 
> 
> http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04175464__
> http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04249447__
> 
> Also the DX synth isn't an FM synth it's an Phase Modulation 
synth... you'll
> recognise that when you using set the modulator of your FS1R to 
fixed and a
> low frequency to use it like an LFO and modulate a Carrier with for 
instance
> the ALL1 waveform and skirt set to 7... you will hear a phasing 
instead of a

> vibrato... I was kind of confused when I discoverd that...
> 
> Also look at this URL for further descriptions....
> 
> http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/audio/misc/pm-intro
>

Thanks, Todd!

3.8 pounds doesn't sound that far off, after all.  Probably won't find a
brick in the package, then!

-- Jeremy

At 15:48 09.06.01 -0000, you wrote:
>I checked the manual- and you can indeed modulate 4 in equal amounts 
>by 1,2, & 3 at the same time.

I don't have the manual, do you have access to scanner, would be nice to
have at least the part that answers some questions about sound programming
or the possible connections of the oscillators... 
I called the Casio support, they wanted to send me a letter wether they have
a copy of the manual avaiable or not, but that was about 3 month ago, so I'm
not very optimistic about that...  

>Those links make my head spin (as did the Phase equations in john 
>Cownings patent when I first read them years ago).

I'm not a math genius myself, but I mostly understand the descriptions and
can imagine how it influences the waveforms and the way it sounds... 

>Summa- I'm a bit surprised that you present different info on the DAC 
>resolution of the DX series. I pride myself on providing uesful and 
>accurate information. If i'm wrong, I'd sure like to know.
>
>Can you confirm your source of the TX81z being 16 bit ?

My source is the german Keys magazine, issue 2/98 FM special, they had a
table with all FM synths, with the bit depth for almost every FM synth
except SY22 and TG33... I also checked DX7II/11/81z articles from 1987 I
found in the german Keyboards magazine, but they only confirmed that those
new generation of Yamaha Synths have better converters but not mentioned the
bit depth...

Summa


			     
           +                        
           +                       
           +     /\      /\         
        /\ +  /\/  \    /  \        
+++++++/++\++/++++++\++/+++ \    /\  /\         /    O   
      /    \/        \/      \  /  \/  \ |   | /     |  /----
 /\  /     +                  \/        \\---/ ----  |  |
/  \/      +                  /\                  /     \----
           +                 /  \                / 
           +                 Nicknames  : Summa or SumGhost
           +                 AIM        : Flotorian
           +                 Born       : 1967
           +                 Profession : Student of Computer Science
           +	                     

A Touch of Future - Project : http://www.mp3.com/AToF/
Casio CZ Synth Station      : http://www.mp3.com/stations/CZ/ 
CZ/VZ Mailinglist           : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth

Boycott the Premium Artist Service!!!


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com