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Re: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

Re: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

2002-03-24 by Nathan I Smutz

Hello,

The CZs envelope time depends on both the rate and the difference between
the levels.
It is like throwing a ball.  The time depends on the speed you threw it
and the distance to the destination.
The CZ manual says that if you were to draw the invelope, a Rate of 99
would be representet by an angle of nearly 90 degrees.  And a rate of 0
would not change the level at all.  The line would be perfectly
horizontal. (0 degrees).   

Please correct me if I make any errors here:

After some fact finding, you could use a calculator to find the "Rate" or
Time.


You could use a stopwatch to find out how the rate numbers relate to
Levels per second:

For instance: You could measure how long it takes a sound to go from full
loudness (99) to silence (0) at a rate of 50.
Divide the number of seconds (or fraction of a second) by 50 and you will
know how many Levels per second a rate number represents.

______      --- Rate angle (50)
             \                           99
                \                           \
                    \                         >Distance
                       \                     /
                          \                0
                             \
             |  <-Time->
               

You should take another measurement to confirm that the level (volume)
drops half as fast when the Rate is at 1.

As soon as you know how many levels per second that the "Rate" numbers
represent, you can use a calculator to get the right "Rate" value for the
Time you want.
Rate x Time =  Distance.   R x T = D

The formula for Rate is: Distance (number of levels) / Time = Rate   D /
T =R

Divide the change in envlope "level" by the time (in seconds) that you
want.   The divide this number by the "levels pre second" numbe that you
determined with your stopwatch.


Like I said: please let me know if my geometry is wrong on this.
On digital syntheiszers: You might have some inconsistency in the fastest
rates and the lowest levels.  
I hope this is of help.
Make a joyful noise,
Nathan

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RE: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

2002-03-24 by Furman, Jon W.

Nathan your thoughts are good in theory but there are a few things that
complicate this in practice. The first is that at least my ears aren't
sensitive enough/fingers fast enough to measure the envelope changes with a
stop watch.  Maybe you might be able to get some kind of approximation but
I'm too deaf and slow to even come close. And the big issue is that you're
assuming that these rate/level relationships are linear and I'm pretty sure
that they're not (at least on most synths). That is the time represented by
a rate of  50 going from level 1 to 100 is not 5 times the time of a rate of
10 going from level 1 to 100. To make matters worse level 50 is probably not
5 times the volume(or whatever) of level 10. See what I mean? I know that in
the synth manuals they always draw the envelope diagrams with straight lines
but I believe that if you were to graph those values in real life all those
lines would be curves.

Jon
Show quoted textHide quoted text
	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Nathan I Smutz [SMTP:n.smutz@...]
	Sent:	Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:17 PM
	To:	CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
	Subject:	Re: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

	Hello,
	
	The CZs envelope time depends on both the rate and the difference
between
	the levels.
	It is like throwing a ball.  The time depends on the speed you threw
it
	and the distance to the destination.
	The CZ manual says that if you were to draw the invelope, a Rate of
99
	would be representet by an angle of nearly 90 degrees.  And a rate
of 0
	would not change the level at all.  The line would be perfectly
	horizontal. (0 degrees).   
	
	Please correct me if I make any errors here:
	
	After some fact finding, you could use a calculator to find the
"Rate" or
	Time.
	
	
	You could use a stopwatch to find out how the rate numbers relate to
	Levels per second:
	
	For instance: You could measure how long it takes a sound to go from
full
	loudness (99) to silence (0) at a rate of 50.
	Divide the number of seconds (or fraction of a second) by 50 and you
will
	know how many Levels per second a rate number represents.
	
	______      --- Rate angle (50)
	             \                           99
	                \                           \
	                    \                         >Distance
	                       \                     /
	                          \                0
	                             \
	             |  <-Time->
	               
	
	You should take another measurement to confirm that the level
(volume)
	drops half as fast when the Rate is at 1.
	
	As soon as you know how many levels per second that the "Rate"
numbers
	represent, you can use a calculator to get the right "Rate" value
for the
	Time you want.
	Rate x Time =  Distance.   R x T = D
	
	The formula for Rate is: Distance (number of levels) / Time = Rate
D /
	T =R
	
	Divide the change in envlope "level" by the time (in seconds) that
you
	want.   The divide this number by the "levels pre second" numbe that
you
	determined with your stopwatch.
	
	
	Like I said: please let me know if my geometry is wrong on this.
	On digital syntheiszers: You might have some inconsistency in the
fastest
	rates and the lowest levels.  
	I hope this is of help.
	Make a joyful noise,
	Nathan
	
	________________________________________________________________
	GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
	Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
	Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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RE: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

2002-03-25 by Furman, Jon W.

Are you thinking this because hardware envelopes depend on RC circuits and
their non linear time constants and software envelopes don't? You have a
point, but from what I've heard about software envelopes they wind up
working the same way. The relationships between the level settings are often
logarithmic to correspond to the way the ear perceives volume changes (which
is known to be non linear..same reason why the decibel scale in
logarithmic). Also I remember way back during some discussion about
resynthesis on the K5k list that some of the users had determined that the
rate~time relationships on the K5k weren't linear either. I figure if that's
true for one synth it's probably true for others also. It would definitely
be interesting to know more about what envelopes on what synth were really
doing what..that's for sure!!

Jon
Show quoted textHide quoted text
	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Maxim Potekhin [SMTP:maxim.potekhin@...]
	Sent:	Monday, March 25, 2002 10:28 AM
	To:	CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
	Subject:	Re: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

	Jon,
	
	  if the envelopes are software, they may well
	be composed of straight lines.
	
	Maxim
	
	
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Re: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

2002-03-25 by Maxim Potekhin

Jon,

 that's an excellent analysis. I agree on all points...
Except now I find myself wondering why the _exact_
shape is important at all... I'm sure the perception
issues are important, and that for different kinds of
sounds the perceived volume changes will be sort of
different... So after all, why not use our ears
when adjusting the enevlopes and such?

Maxim


"Furman, Jon W." wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Are you thinking this because hardware envelopes depend on RC circuits and
> their non linear time constants and software envelopes don't? You have a
> point, but from what I've heard about software envelopes they wind up
> working the same way. The relationships between the level settings are often
> logarithmic to correspond to the way the ear perceives volume changes (which
> is known to be non linear..same reason why the decibel scale in
> logarithmic). Also I remember way back during some discussion about
> resynthesis on the K5k list that some of the users had determined that the
> rate~time relationships on the K5k weren't linear either. I figure if that's
> true for one synth it's probably true for others also. It would definitely
> be interesting to know more about what envelopes on what synth were really
> doing what..that's for sure!!
> 
> Jon

Re: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

2002-03-25 by Maxim Potekhin

It just occured to me that it's relatively easy
to implement a linear ramp-up even in hardware.
Any electronics handbook has a diagram for this.
Exponential and other envelopes came about for
different reasons (probably).

Maxim

RE: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

2002-03-25 by Furman, Jon W.

Haha!! I'm sure that's the same logic that manufacturers have when they
don't put concrete real world numbers in the manuals describing their
envelopes and in most cases it's not a problem but in some cases it is. Two
cases that I can think of off hand are trying to do accurate resynthesis
(like on K5k where it came up before) and also timing specific changes in
timbre or amplitude to song tempo. The second application is especially
likely to come up with an instrument that has sophisticated envelopes like
the 8 stagers on the CZ and VZ.

Jon
Show quoted textHide quoted text
	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Maxim Potekhin [SMTP:maxim.potekhin@...]
	Sent:	Monday, March 25, 2002 11:26 AM
	To:	CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
	Subject:	Re: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

	Jon,
	
	that's an excellent analysis. I agree on all points...
	Except now I find myself wondering why the _exact_
	shape is important at all... I'm sure the perception
	issues are important, and that for different kinds of
	sounds the perceived volume changes will be sort of
	different... So after all, why not use our ears
	when adjusting the enevlopes and such?
	
	Maxim

Re: [CZsynth] Digest Number 137

2002-03-25 by Maxim Potekhin

I thought more about the curvature of the envleopes which is sort
of less important -- I agree the timing should be always
measured in millliseconds, anything else is bull. Nord Lead 3
has this (very nice), and I believe OB-12 as well. Everytime
I see somethinlg like 0-127 (even on my cool A3000) it
ticks me off.


Maxim

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