2017-01-14 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hi, I used to own a CZ5000 and have a number of sequences I created on the CZ5000 sequencer saved to cassette. These used to be saved and loaded to the CZ5000 via a MT Cable connected to a cassette recorder. Does anyone know if there is any PC emulation of the CZ5000 sequencer that would read these original MT sequence data recordings as I have a number of old songs that I would really like to load and edit into a modern sequencer. I have considered buying a 2nd hand CZ5000 purely to get access to these data recordings again although reasonably decent CZ5000's are hard to find....and when you do they are quite pricey.
Any suggestions welcome. Thanks.
2017-01-17 by smw-mail@...
Good question! One option is to do some research on the FSK [Frequency Shift Keying] process and see if that is standard for all cassette data devices that use FSK or if each manufacturer used a proprietary method. If it is standard, maybe there is a general FSK to data program somewhere. If it's proprietary, maybe the CZ-5000 service manual might help.
Another option is to record the FSK audio into a wav file [don't use mp3!] and either post it somewhere or e-mail it to someone who can play it into a CZ-5000 and play the midi data in realtime into a sequencer that can save to a format you can use, possibly a standard midi file.
If you have a dual tape deck or two cassette machines, I suppose you could make a dub (turn off NR) and send that to someone, but I think creating a wav file would be easier to share.
In any case, if you have an index to what's on the tape (or in the file), that would probably help whoever will be doing the conversion.
There may be other options; these are off the top of my head. If you create a wav file and post it somewhere, let me know; I can probably test a sequence or two to see how much time it would take. If it goes fast, I can probably do a whole bunch.
There is at least one other option--have someone load the data and then do a sysex dump of the sequence. However, then you'd have to write a program to convert the sysex dump into a standard midi file. Depending on the number of sequences you have, it's probably not worth it to write such a program.
2017-01-17 by smw-mail@...
P. 52 [paper page number] says "Digital data of 1 and 0 are recorded on magnetic tape as 2.4 KHz and 1.2KHz, respectively." I have no idea if all tape data cassettes use these frequencies, but it should be researchable.
2017-01-17 by Gordonjcp
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 10:03:35AM -0800, smw-mail@... [CZsynth] wrote:
> P. 52 [paper page number] says "Digital data of 1 and 0 are recorded on magnetic tape as 2.4 KHz and 1.2KHz, respectively." I have no idea if all tape data cassettes use these frequencies, but it should be researchable.
That's not the problem so much as how the bits are actually laid out.
You might be lucky and find that it's similar to how sysex data is transferred.
--
Gordonjcp
2017-01-17 by smw-mail@...
Akai AX80 Synthesizer Hacking - R-Massive
Evidently the tones here are different than the CZ, but the process of hacking the FSK data might be the same.
2017-01-17 by smw-mail@...
And finally, check out the very detailed description of the Casio MT process described for the RZ-1:
Casio RZ-1 MT Jack - R-Massive
Casio RZ-1 MT Jack - R-Massive There are two ways to load samples into the Casio RZ-1: “cassette” dump via the MT (magnetic tape) terminal or in through the sample jack.
Preview by Yahoo
I didn't compare it completely with the CZ-5000 service manual, but my guess it's the same. At the end there seems to be a *.rar file with utilities--including MT Encoding and MT Decoding (according to the link/blurb).
It still might be easier to make a wav file, get it to someone, and have them play it realtime into a sequencer that will give you a standard midi file, but I was quite impressed to find this site and thought I'd pass it on to you in case you want to try it.
Uhoh. The suite of utilities might not be downloadable. :( It looks like it had been on a file sharing site called mediafire; not sure if that service is still around.
2017-01-17 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hi Steve,
Many thanks for your suggestions here. Perhaps I need to test to see if the saved data is still of a good enough quality to load to a CZ5k. If I recorded a test file in wav format and posted it here would you mind seeing if you can load it? If that works and in view of the number I have it would probably be worth while me getting a second hand one. Many thanks, Sean.
2017-01-18 by smw-mail@...
Evidently I can download the RZ-1 utilities from home. Since they seem to have been designed for the RZ-1, the functionality seems to be limited to transfer of audio samples to and from the RZ-1 and not a general purpose CZ FSK to data converter.
2017-01-18 by smw-mail@...
Very good point about needing to understand how the bits (and bytes and words) are laid out. I didn't read the detailed explanation, as found in the RZ-1 article, but it looked to me like on the bit level, it was 300 baud serial data.
On the byte/word level, my guess is that the data encoded in on tape is similar to the way it is organized in the sysex package--just a guess, though.
While I mined the meaning of the sysex sequencer data decades ago, I still think it would take much less total time to record the FSK audio to a wav file, have it played into a CZ-5000 with an MT cable, and then played into a sequencer realtime via midi than to try decoding the FSK data (although the utilities linted at the end of the RZ-1 article looked promising. If mediafire is still a valid site and someone has an account and the utilities are still there, I would probably be interested in seeing if I could make it work with the CZ data.)
I have written about the CZ sequencer data format before, so I won't go into it here--in part because I don't have the data format and the tokens memorized. Not sure if I mined the whole structure, but I was able to set a bit so that tracks could be played just out via midi w/o stealing voices from the CZ. I also seem torecall writing C-64 code to juggle daea to basically bump the data from one track to another track. I believe I abandoned the project before developing code to merge tracks (e.g., combine tracks 1 and 2 and put it on track 7.
So, having spent time on stuff like this, it would seem possible to go from FSK to midi data with an awful amount of work. If it were me, I would go tape (audio) -> wav -> sound card --> MT cable --> CZ --> midi sequencer via realtime record --> smf.
Of course, it should also be possible to mail someone the tape (or a non-high speed dupe).
Anyhow, those are just a few possible options and a recommendation.
.
Steve
Footnote: One CZ-3000 I tested responded to CZ-500 sequencer send and receive requests, stored the sequencer data, and sent it back out. Of course,without the sequencer apparatus, it was only useful as a storage place for a single sequence sysex file.
2017-01-18 by smw-mail@...
I have been looking at the Knut Roll-Lund TRS-80 material, such as:
http://knut.one/wav2cas.htmIt might be worth following the steps to record the data from a CZ cassette to a PC and then run the wav2cas program. If it works, I'd look at the binary tab to see if the hex dump resembles sysex data, specifically the CZ sequencer data, I'd do it myself, but I'd have to find my CZ data tapes--which might be upstairs in the attic where they might have gotten subjected to summer heat over the span of a decade or two (and therefore might be corrupt).
The sample screenshot seems to show a basic program via the analysis tab. That's why I suggested looking at the binary tab.
The suggestion to record the tape onto a CD and send the CD to someone with a CZ-5000 is another option that might work like sending someone a wav file.
2017-01-18 by smw-mail@...
I gave up looking for my old CZ tapes in favor of using a CZ-5000 to test the Knut Roll-Lund programs directly. I successfully tested the wav2cas and the Play Cas programs on a Win 10 laptop (used to be win 7). I used patch bank MT dumps, but I expect sequencer MT dumps should work the same way.
Here's what I did:
Audio program test:
1. Using the MT cable I connected the red to the audio in and the black into the headphones out.
2. I dumped A/B and C/D to an audio recording program.
3. I played them back from the audio program and successfully verified them.
I saved the file as a MS wav file. I had to trim the beginning of the recording so the file started with the header tone.
wav2cas & Play Cas tests:
1. I booted wav2cas and opened the wav file.
---The data did not look recognizable as midi data; not sure if breaking it down to 7-bit nybbles would help.
---The program said the data was bad; probably because it was expecting TRS-80 or similar data.
2. I saved each of 2 preset "files" from wav2cas as cas files.
3, I booted Play Cas and successfully verified the banks.
Assuming this will work with sequences, what do these tests mean for the task of getting CZ MT sequencer dumps from cassette to midi?
1. You can play the tape into a sound card and save it as a wav file to send to someone with a CZ-5000 to play into a sequencer as midi data to be saved as a standard midi file (or any other format that your sequencer can use). Variations: you can upload the wav file, e-mail it, put it on a flashdrive, CD-ROM, etc.
2. You can load the wav file into wav2cas and save each file [dataset] as a cas file which someone can play into a CZ-5000, etc. etc.
3. You can try to figure out how to convert the data which the utilities show into a standard midi file.
I still recommend (1) or (2). Using the cas utilities might have some advantages over a wav file. The wav2cas program seems to do some analysis of the audio and might (not sure) stabilize it before converting it to cas. Also, if you wav file has several data sets, you can save (and name) each data set.
If you have a zillion files that would take 10-20 years to play into a sequencer using the realtime playback method, it might be worth the time to automate the MT data to midi data conversion with a program that will do the work.
I will play some notes into the sequencer and try the same process. If it doesn't work the way the patch banks did, I will report that.
I hope this helps.
2017-01-18 by smw-mail@...
Yes--both the wav and the cas methods worked with a short 4 track sequence that I saved and reloaded into the CZ-5000.
Another advantage of the cas method: the files are quite small. The 1,864 KB wav file sequence became 5KB was a cas file.
BTW:
--I did not normalize the wav file. I did trim the beginning so the wav2cas program saw the carrier wav [header] right away.
--Other than the spikes at the start and the end of the FSK data (i.e., not the FSK header), the audio was about -15/-16 dB.
--I knew that the CZ can handle bogus data input via sysex; now I am wondering if it can be some by manipulating the cas files.
Thanks for posing the problem of how to get your CZ-5000 sequences as midi files; I learned a lot in the process. (And if you want to post some cas files I can try to play realtime into a sequencer, I can give that a try.)
Steve
2017-01-18 by José Ángel Morente
And what about the SZ-1? Although it's 4-track only, the workflow is similar to CZ5000's sequencer. If someone find info about how data is structured in the SZ-1, maybe it will work for CZ5000.
(I own a SZ-1 and could try some tests if I get the data format specification).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 18 January 2017 at 03:03,
smw-mail@... [CZsynth]
<CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Evidently I can download the RZ-1 utilities from home. Since they seem to have been designed for the RZ-1, the functionality seems to be limited to transfer of audio samples to and from the RZ-1 and not a general purpose CZ FSK to data converter.
2017-01-18 by smw-mail@...
My guess is that the data structure is the same, but might just be set up to do 4 tracks. I really should find the CZ-5000 sequencer break down I did. I seem to recall I did sysex dumps and loaded them into a hex monitor/editor.
As I recall, it started out with some data about the 8 tracks (I think control parameters and maybe pointers to where in memory the track data started), followed by the track data for each track. With the hex editor I was able to put in smaller values [shorter note/rest durations] than available from the front panel.
Somewhere I should have a matrix showing what the tokens [hex values] stand for. I seem to recall figuring out the step-entry tokens partially by creating sequences with them (repeat, first ending, etc.), extending the matrix logically, and then testing to see if I was right--typical data mining stuff.
I believe by setting the track polyphony byte to zero, the data would be output via midi only without using internal voices. Since the SZ-1 is just the sequencer, if it has the track polyphony parameter (or whatever it was), my guess is that it wouldn't make a difference on the SZ-1.
Steve
2017-01-18 by Daniel Forró
Are you sure about SysEx dump of sequences?
According to Owner's Manual and this page:
http://www.tinyloops.com/doc/casio_cz-5000/mt-connector.html
it's not possible to send and receive Sequencer data in SysEx format.
So there's no reason why sequencer data in FSK signal should be
organized in similar way as SysEx data.
There's even more interesting info on that web:
http://www.tinyloops.com/doc/casio_cz-5000/sysx.html
http://www.tinyloops.com/doc/casio_cz-5000/sequencer.html
http://www.tinyloops.com/doc/casio_cz-5000/index.html
Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 18, 2017, at 2:04 AM, smw-mail@... [CZsynth] wrote:
> There is at least one other option--have someone load the data and
> then do a sysex dump of the sequence. However, then you'd have to
> write a program to convert the sysex dump into a standard midi file.
> Depending on the number of sequences you have, it's probably not
> worth it to write such a program.
>
2017-01-18 by ygroups@...
There is a conversation from last month, where
steve_the_composer mentions it
is possible to request the sequencer data from the cz5000 using sysx, but I haven't added this to the tinyloops website yet. Read his explanation here:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CZsynth/conversations/messages/6897Maybe I should just add the verbose text of his message to the website. Is that OK by you steve?
Warm greetings,
Gerd Westendorp (tinyloops)
2017-01-18 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hi, thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I think my best option is to try and source a second hand CZ5000 to load the MT data back into and then record the sequence straight back into my current sequencer via midi.
What would be useful first though is knowing whether my MT recordings have survived the last 30 years! If anyone out there has a CZ5000 with the capability of loading sequence data I'd be very grateful if you could try loading one of my files to test it still works. I have saved one as a .wav file in dropbox (link below). There doesn't appear to be any dropout in the recording although there is a background hum - from memory this has always been there and was as a result of the cheap tape recorder I was using at the time.
Many thanks
Sean
2017-01-18 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hi, Thanks for all your suggestions. I think my best option is to buy a second hand CZ5000 to load my MT sequence data into and then record that straight out over midi to another sequencer.
What would be good though and before I do that is knowing whether my MT recordings have survived the last 30 years! If anyone out there still has a CZ5000 with the capability to load sequence data via the MT Cable and is willing to test one of my files I'd be very grateful. I have saved one of them down to Dropbox as a .wav file (link below). There doesn't appear to be any drop-out in the recording although there is a bit of a background hum - from memory this has always been there and was due to the cheap cassette recorder I used at the time!
Many thanks
2017-01-18 by ygroups@...
ok, so you know, last time it took a week before my messages got delivered to this group. sorry for the delay, i have no control over it.
2017-01-18 by smw-mail@...
99 44/100% of the time I am 100% sure of what I write as I state it. ;-)
Seriously, if someone says they cannot do CZ sequencer dumps and re-loads using sysex, they must not be doing them the way I have done them over the decades.
As we have discussed before, this is an open forum and you can doubt my word if you want. I just offer facts, opinions, suggestions, etc. in case they help people who are trying to do things. As someone once said, "Take what you find useful; ignore the rest."
I have not checked the links you provided, but if they say it cannot be done plain and simple, I think they are misstating something.
Technically, you could say that none of the CZ data exchanges that involve hand-shaking work because from the get-go, Casio got that final F7 [sysex EOX] wrong in their implementation. (I won't explain that here, but it is legendary!!!!!)
However, to claim that "Sysex on Casio CZ gear doesn't work" is inaccurate / misleading / erroneous / not factually true / false (JMO). Claiming that "Casio's CZ sysex handshaking protocol varies from they way sysex was supposed to work and in some cases requires small work-arounds" conforms to my understanding.
As always, I could be wrong. In this case, I stand by what I say with 99 44/100% certainty.
Steve
2017-01-18 by Daniel Forró
OK, I haven't any reason not to trust you.
There's a lot of false or inaccurate statements on the internet pages.
And sometimes there's wrong or missing information even in official
manufacturer's documents and manuals. I have found enough of them.
Yes, I know about Casio F7 mistake.
For sure I didn't claim that "SysEx on Casio CZ gear doesn't work". I
just quoted manual and one web page stating that CZ5000 sequencer data
can't be sent as SysEx dump. I haven't CZ5000 so I can't verify this.
Your experience can vary.
99.44 looks well for both time and certainty.
Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 18, 2017, at 10:58 PM, smw-mail@... [CZsynth] wrote:
> 99 44/100% of the time I am 100% sure of what I write as I state
> it. ;-)
>
> Seriously, if someone says they cannot do CZ sequencer dumps and re-
> loads using sysex, they must not be doing them the way I have done
> them over the decades.
>
> As we have discussed before, this is an open forum and you can doubt
> my word if you want. I just offer facts, opinions, suggestions, etc.
> in case they help people who are trying to do things. As someone
> once said, "Take what you find useful; ignore the rest."
>
> I have not checked the links you provided, but if they say it cannot
> be done plain and simple, I think they are misstating something.
>
> Technically, you could say that none of the CZ data exchanges that
> involve hand-shaking work because from the get-go, Casio got that
> final F7 [sysex EOX] wrong in their implementation. (I won't
> explain that here, but it is legendary!!!!!)
>
> However, to claim that "Sysex on Casio CZ gear doesn't work" is
> inaccurate / misleading / erroneous / not factually true / false
> (JMO). Claiming that "Casio's CZ sysex handshaking protocol varies
> from they way sysex was supposed to work and in some cases requires
> small work-arounds" conforms to my understanding.
>
> As always, I could be wrong. In this case, I stand by what I say
> with 99 44/100% certainty.
>
> Steve
>
2017-01-18 by smw-mail@...
PS: I looked. The site looks familiar. I believe I wrote to the author about at least one of the errors. I seem to get a thank you note saying it would be corrected. (It was probably about how to pad sysex requests with ACKs so as to simulate a realtime proper handshaking process, IIRC. I believe I have stated that here several times over the years.)
I did not do a complete review of everything on that site that is either wrong or misleading.
Feel free to send my posts to the author of that site, ask if he or she was the one I e-mailed, and if so, ask if the corrections were ever incorporated into the site.
I seem to recall that I lavished praise on the site's writer because I thought it was extremely well done (and may have e-mailed about the MT cable, possibly discussing the missing, but unnecessary cassette remote on/off wire)--or it might have been someone else with the same (or similar content).
Maybe I didn't write about padding the sysex sequencer requests. Maybe I will just have to do a CZ page on my own website so I can just write, "See ___________ [url]." And maybe someone will use it as a footnote in Wikipedia. And maybe then the bots of the world will index that page and it will pop up on internet searches.
I had been thinking about doing that for the sequencer data dump breakdown.
To Daniel: Since English is not your first language but you do know several languages, and you do have a lot of technical knowledge concerning music gear, midi, etc. maybe we could work together to create translated content for my site--if I ever get around to writing up the CZ (and other) content we share an interest in.
2017-01-18 by Daniel Forró
On Jan 18, 2017, at 11:27 PM, smw-mail@... [CZsynth] wrote:
> PS: I looked. The site looks familiar. I believe I wrote to the
> author about at least one of the errors. I seem to get a thank you
> note saying it would be corrected. (It was probably about how to
> pad sysex requests with ACKs so as to simulate a realtime proper
> handshaking process, IIRC. I believe I have stated that here
> several times over the years.)
>
> I did not do a complete review of everything on that site that is
> either wrong or misleading.
>
OK.
>
> Feel free to send my posts to the author of that site, ask if he or
> she was the one I e-mailed, and if so, ask if the corrections were
> ever incorporated into the site
>
I'm afraid I haven't so much time for such research...
> I seem to recall that I lavished praise on the site's writer because
> I thought it was extremely well done (and may have e-mailed about
> the MT cable, possibly discussing the missing, but unnecessary
> cassette remote on/off wire)--or it might have been someone else
> with the same (or similar content).
>
> Maybe I didn't write about padding the sysex sequencer requests.
> Maybe I will just have to do a CZ page on my own website so I can
> just write, "See ___________ [url]." And maybe someone will use it
> as a footnote in Wikipedia. And maybe then the bots of the world
> will index that page and it will pop up on internet searches.
>
> I had been thinking about doing that for the sequencer data dump
> breakdown.
>
> To Daniel: Since English is not your first language but you do know
> several languages, and you do have a lot of technical knowledge
> concerning music gear, midi, etc. maybe we could work together to
> create translated content for my site--if I ever get around to
> writing up the CZ (and other) content we share an interest in.
>
Everybody can do mistakes, even a person with years of experience. But
if you think I can help a little bit, your kind offer is accepted with
a pleasure if time will allow :-) Thank you!
Daniel Forro
2017-01-19 by smw-mail@...
I saw a CZ-5000 on e-bay last night; IIRC, it was around $250. Not sure if that's reasonable or not, but I thought I'd pass that on. Oh. I just see one for $239 OBO (plus shipping). Maybe that's the one I saw.
If you want me to try doing the wav -> CZ -> SMF test, let me know.
2017-01-19 by Sean Plaw
Hiya,
Thanks for the update re eBay. I'll have a look at those.
Would you mind doing the wav -> CZ -> SMF test for me on one of my files (link below) so I know if its going to work before I go and purchase a CZ5000?
Many thanks
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 19 January 2017 at 17:42,
smw-mail@... [CZsynth]
<CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I saw a CZ-5000 on e-bay last night; IIRC, it was around $250. Not sure if that's reasonable or not, but I thought I'd pass that on. Oh. I just see one for $239 OBO (plus shipping). Maybe that's the one I saw.
If you want me to try doing the wav -> CZ -> SMF test, let me know.
2017-01-19 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hi Steve
Thanks for the update re eBay. I'll have a look at those.
Would you mind doing the wav -> CZ -> SMF test for me on one of my files (link below) so I know if its going to work before I go and purchase a CZ5000?
https://db.tt/POEzc5J4AP
Many thanks
2017-01-19 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hiya,
Thanks for the update re eBay. I'll have a look at those.
Would you mind doing the wav -> CZ -> SMF test for me on one of my files (link below) so I know if its going to work before I go and purchase a CZ5000?
https://db.tt/POEzc5J4AP
Many thanks
2017-01-20 by smw-mail@...
Well, some good news in terms of phase 1: getting the sequence to load properly into the CZ-5000. It took a number of tries and simple diagnosis of your wav file. On my recordings and the sample from tinyloops, the header tone and the data are at about the same level. On your sample, the header is at a lower volume. I am not sure if recording with AGC on (or maybe NR) would have caused that.
Also, I seemed to get an error on the load in the same spot. I hit pause on the playback as soon as that happened and looked at the wav file. On the right track in that spot was a dip--not a full drop out to silence, though. The left track looked more consistent in terms of level, so I cut that and pasted it to a mono track. That version loaded without an error!!!! Hooray.
I then did an MT save and sure enough, the header and the data sections were at the same level.
I took the batteries out of the CZ a few years ago, so I didn't have patches in the user bank; however, I copied a few of the fixed patches to user slots and verified there were notes in the sequence.
Phase 2 would be to play the CZ into a sequencer. I can't see why that wouldn't work, but I didn't try it yet; I wanted to report on the process used to get the data from the tape.
Now that I know what to look for in the wav file to get an idea of the integrity, I could probably try a few more if you want and see if the issues I had with this one are the same.
Steve
2017-01-21 by Sean Plaw
Hi Steve,
This is good news - and I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into this. If you are happy to do a few more I'll save some more wav files down. Is there anything I could do to make this easier for you or shall I just do the same as I did for the 1st one? Once again, many thank's
Sean
P.s. I'll post an update when I've saved down a few more files.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 20 Jan 2017 23:59, "
smw-mail@prodigy.net [CZsynth]" <
CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Well, some good news in terms of phase 1: getting the sequence to load properly into the CZ-5000. It took a number of tries and simple diagnosis of your wav file. On my recordings and the sample from tinyloops, the header tone and the data are at about the same level. On your sample, the header is at a lower volume. I am not sure if recording with AGC on (or maybe NR) would have caused that.
Also, I seemed to get an error on the load in the same spot. I hit pause on the playback as soon as that happened and looked at the wav file. On the right track in that spot was a dip--not a full drop out to silence, though. The left track looked more consistent in terms of level, so I cut that and pasted it to a mono track. That version loaded without an error!!!! Hooray.
I then did an MT save and sure enough, the header and the data sections were at the same level.
I took the batteries out of the CZ a few years ago, so I didn't have patches in the user bank; however, I copied a few of the fixed patches to user slots and verified there were notes in the sequence.
Phase 2 would be to play the CZ into a sequencer. I can't see why that wouldn't work, but I didn't try it yet; I wanted to report on the process used to get the data from the tape.
Now that I know what to look for in the wav file to get an idea of the integrity, I could probably try a few more if you want and see if the issues I had with this one are the same.
Steve
2017-01-21 by smw-mail@...
--9nlWnTS9ocNmxdhsK3FKVLWiM6a5jwOaA8HvrLV
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
--9nlWnTS9ocNmxdhsK3FKVLWiM6a5jwOaA8HvrLV
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
--9nlWnTS9ocNmxdhsK3FKVLWiM6a5jwOaA8HvrLV--
2017-01-21 by smw-mail@...
As a matter of fact, my curiosity has piqued on this stuff--FSK and digital data conversion. I found some sites where someone was doing something with what I believe are newer FSK schemes and digital radio. (At least I think its newer than mid 1980s Casio CZs.)
Anyhow, I was will be setting up my CZ so I don't have to move it to test. That will make it easier! I also want to make some time to take some sample screen shots of your wav data since it is different than my tests and the tinyloops sample. I am wondering what mine from decades ago look like. Yours are more like triangle or sawtooth; the others are closer to square waves with noise on the upper and lower peaks of the pulse wave. I am not sure if that is from being recorded with AGC or NR originally or on playing back while making the wav or from tape degradation over time. If I can find my tapes, that might shed light on the possibility of the wave shape changing from tape degradation.
If you have some user banks I can load up, that would be helpful to monitor the sequences. I thought I had some CZ sysex banks, but all I can find are my CZ-1 banks. Those should work; so if you don't have or can't find yours, I will load in the CZ-1 banks (or some banks from the files section).
If the original MT data tapes were done in stereo, please make the wav files as stereo, since one track might be more pure than the other. If there is noise reduction or other signal modification on the tape player/deck you are using to make the wav files, if possible turn that off--unless the original had NR and the deck is uncoding it now.
Zipping a batch of files should make downloading easier and should affect the wav files.
As for the tape hum, I also got that when I did a direct from CZ to laptop transfer. I will move the CZ to an XP tower to see if that reduces the hum and will try a pre-audio version of cakewalk software to record the midi data into a midi file. (I will also see if I have some batteries for the CZ.)
Steve
2017-01-21 by Sean Plaw
Hi Steve,
I've done a few extra recordings this afternoon so will zip them and share then on Dropbox shortly. During doing this I too noticed the square waveform shape of the tiny loops demo compared to the sawtooth shape of my recordings. I did wonder if it was due to sound banks versus sequence data....although I can't find any of my sound bank recordings to compare it too.
From memory I believe I did all data type recordings with NR turned off so have recorded the wav files with it turned off also. I'll also leave them as stereo files as again this was how they were originally recorded. To be honest I'm surprised how well the tape recordings have lasted as it's been 30 years for some of them.
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On 21 Jan 2017 14:08, "
smw-mail@... [CZsynth]" <
CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
As a matter of fact, my curiosity has piqued on this stuff--FSK and digital data conversion. I found some sites where someone was doing something with what I believe are newer FSK schemes and digital radio. (At least I think its newer than mid 1980s Casio CZs.)
Anyhow, I was will be setting up my CZ so I don't have to move it to test. That will make it easier! I also want to make some time to take some sample screen shots of your wav data since it is different than my tests and the tinyloops sample. I am wondering what mine from decades ago look like. Yours are more like triangle or sawtooth; the others are closer to square waves with noise on the upper and lower peaks of the pulse wave. I am not sure if that is from being recorded with AGC or NR originally or on playing back while making the wav or from tape degradation over time. If I can find my tapes, that might shed light on the possibility of the wave shape changing from tape degradation.
If you have some user banks I can load up, that would be helpful to monitor the sequences. I thought I had some CZ sysex banks, but all I can find are my CZ-1 banks. Those should work; so if you don't have or can't find yours, I will load in the CZ-1 banks (or some banks from the files section).
If the original MT data tapes were done in stereo, please make the wav files as stereo, since one track might be more pure than the other. If there is noise reduction or other signal modification on the tape player/deck you are using to make the wav files, if possible turn that off--unless the original had NR and the deck is uncoding it now.
Zipping a batch of files should make downloading easier and should affect the wav files.
As for the tape hum, I also got that when I did a direct from CZ to laptop transfer. I will move the CZ to an XP tower to see if that reduces the hum and will try a pre-audio version of cakewalk software to record the midi data into a midi file. (I will also see if I have some batteries for the CZ.)
Steve
2017-01-21 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hi Steve,
I've attached a few more wav recordings (zipped) of the CZ5000 Sequence Data (Dropbox link below). I had a look through my old tapes but couldn't find anything that referenced Sound Bank saves.
Let me know how you get on and if you successfully convert them to a midi file.
Many thanks
Sean
2017-01-21 by smw-mail@...
I just set up a CZ-5000work area so I have audio and midi to the old XP with an old parallel port midi interface! Looking for CZ patch banks now. The MT cable is short, but I am sure I have at least one extension cable.
Looking at FSK waves and having just read about them, my guess is that they should be pulse waves--even the CZ patch banks. I first assumed that because the header on the one you sent was at a lower level than the data portion it was due to either AGC or NR of come type, but maybe it was caused by something else. As for the non-squared [with noise] peaks I was thinking that tape degradation would not do that so consistently. I am curious to see what my tapes look like. I can't imagine that I threw them out, but they were not with my old music tapes.
The CZ-5000 was my first home commercial synth (1980s) which was coupled with delay echo from a reel-to-reel tape recorder. With digital FX in a more-or-less contemporary sound card (with E-Mu's PatchMix software), I have recreated something like the R-to-R delay echo. If I can find my old tapes and CZ patches, it might be fun to redo some of my old tunes and improvs.
Looking forward to figuring out how to best play your tunes into a sequencer--assuming the wav/MT loading goes OK. SONAR X-1 was the last version of the Cakewalk sequencer that runs on XP. It can save to several midi formats MIDI 0 and MIDI 1 and something I never knew about RIFF MIDI 0 and 1.
What sequencer do you have? What midi formats can it accept? If you have any sort of cakewalk sequencer, I should be able to output it as a *.wrk file (or a *.cwp file).
I have been thinking of re-doing some of my "ancient" tunes, so this is the perfect opportunity to take that off the back burner--at least as far as my CZ tunes. But as much as I would like to create my own CZ samples [like for a sampler], that will have to wait. There are several banks of CZ samples out there, but not my custom CZ patches!
Steve
PS: If other member of the list (or the owner) are not really interested in all this about the CZ-5000, we could go to e-mail. Personally, I am comfortable sharing these processes with then group, Maybe in another 30 years someone else will want to convert CZ MT data tapes. I won't be around, but maybe Yahoo! Groups will.
2017-01-21 by smw-mail@...
Good news--found EZ-CZ cartridge and loaded one bank each into memory A/B and C/D--not the ones I was looking for, but at least there's something there.
As for retaining memory, one of the 3 AA batteries was dead; the other 2 were approx 1.22 v. with a third @ 1.26 v., the banks survive power down for at least 2 min. So, don't worry about finding.
If anyone else want to know anything about the CZ-5000 while I have it set up, please ask.
2017-01-21 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hi Steve,
I'm still very much hardware sequencer based using a Roland MC-50, MC-80 and an MV8800 - in varying degrees! I know the MC-80 can read SMF type 0 & 1 and think the MV can too. I may have an older copy of Cubase knocking around on my XP PC and I think I have a copy of Cakewalk 4 too. Must admit though I've never really used these.
Before parting with the CZ5000 in the late 80's I did record some sequences to my first 'proper' sequencer - a roland MC-300. In terms of the set-up I had the MC-300 set to external midi, receive on all midi channels and then primed it to start recording on track 1. I then pressed play on the CZ5000 with all 8 sequence tracks lit - or however many had data on. I think each track of the CZ transmitted on its own respective midi channel as I ended up with a single track recorded on the MC which contained up to 8 separate midi channels. I think i might also have had to set the MC-300 to not have the standard 2 bar count-in for recording as the CZ would start playing immediately and the MC would miss the first 2 bars as it was doing it's count in. It was either that or inserting 2 bars at the beginning of each track of the CZ - although cant remember if this was possible on the CZ or not
Once the sequence had run through I was then able to move the various recorded midi channels to any of the 4 (!) tracks on the MC-300.
Cheers
Sean
---In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, <smw-mail@...> wrote :
I just set up a CZ-5000work area so I have audio and midi to the old XP with an old parallel port midi interface! Looking for CZ patch banks now. The MT cable is short, but I am sure I have at least one extension cable.
Looking at FSK waves and having just read about them, my guess is that they should be pulse waves--even the CZ patch banks. I first assumed that because the header on the one you sent was at a lower level than the data portion it was due to either AGC or NR of come type, but maybe it was caused by something else. As for the non-squared [with noise] peaks I was thinking that tape degradation would not do that so consistently. I am curious to see what my tapes look like. I can't imagine that I threw them out, but they were not with my old music tapes.
The CZ-5000 was my first home commercial synth (1980s) which was coupled with delay echo from a reel-to-reel tape recorder. With digital FX in a more-or-less contemporary sound card (with E-Mu's PatchMix software), I have recreated something like the R-to-R delay echo. If I can find my old tapes and CZ patches, it might be fun to redo some of my old tunes and improvs.
Looking forward to figuring out how to best play your tunes into a sequencer--assuming the wav/MT loading goes OK. SONAR X-1 was the last version of the Cakewalk sequencer that runs on XP. It can save to several midi formats MIDI 0 and MIDI 1 and something I never knew about RIFF MIDI 0 and 1.
What sequencer do you have? What midi formats can it accept? If you have any sort of cakewalk sequencer, I should be able to output it as a *.wrk file (or a *.cwp file).
I have been thinking of re-doing some of my "ancient" tunes, so this is the perfect opportunity to take that off the back burner--at least as far as my CZ tunes. But as much as I would like to create my own CZ samples [like for a sampler], that will have to wait. There are several banks of CZ samples out there, but not my custom CZ patches!
Steve
PS: If other member of the list (or the owner) are not really interested in all this about the CZ-5000, we could go to e-mail. Personally, I am comfortable sharing these processes with then group, Maybe in another 30 years someone else will want to convert CZ MT data tapes. I won't be around, but maybe Yahoo! Groups will.
2017-01-22 by smw-mail@...
Hardware it is!!! I can definitely relate--though I can and have used softsynths, I still like my sound modules, one of which has a hardware sequencer. So I tested the following:
1. Created a simple 1 track, 4 measure tune in CZ-5000 step entry mode.
2. I sent the CZ-5000 midi to an E-Mu P2500's sequencer set to record on the first note.
3. I downloaded it as a *.mid file and looked at it in Cakewalk.
It worked! :)
In pattern mode (which is what I have used 99 44/100% of the time), the E-Mu needs to be told the length (from 1 to 32 measures) and the time signature. Well, it doesn't need to, but for the recorded pattern to play successfully as a loopable pattern that can sync to other stuff (and line up properly when opened by another sequencer), the length and time signature are needed. I suppose I could try song mode on the E-Mu.
So, if your CZ tunes are less that 32 measures and you know the time signature (assuming they are not free form), I can use pattern mode. If not, I can try song mode. It's nice that the CZ sends a midi clock stop byte at the end of a sequence since that stops the E-Mu recorder! BPM sync seemed right on the mark--at least for my 4 measure, 1 track tune. My guess is that if the CZ can pump out midi data, the E-Mu can handle it.
If you have endless loops [infinity] ||: :|| on all tracks from start to end [basically a jam pattern], I would probably set those all to 1. I am not sure of your song structures, but if you have varying loops on different tracks (assuming you used ||: :||, I'd have to leave those and just let them play.
When exported to *.mid, the E-Mu sequencer has a short sysex command that has basic data it uses. If your sequencer can edit that out, great! If not, I could load the tune into Cakewalk and delete it.
BTW, I might try a hunch. With my short tune, I also saved it as a sysex dump (after I found where my customized dump request macro was!). So, once I get cables to run the MT data into the XP, the plan is to wavifiy it and see if I can align the digital data with the sysex data. It might be a long shot, but I am hoping the CZ engineers (1) either used the same serial data scheme as midi (8N1?) or maybe the site with RZ-1 has it and (2) used the same coding as sysex since programmable ROM space was much more costly in the 1980s. I will also probably have to find my CZ-5000 sequence dump map and breakdown. Either that or I can redo it! :-( It might be quicker to re-create the table of tokens than to find it!
Steve
If anyone else has been following, here's the tune. Once the sysex header, the final F7, and a mid-dump ACK are stripped away, IIRC, there is a table of the 8 tracks--sequencer parameters and maybe pointers to the track data--followed by the track data. In step mode, the various musical elements (note lengths, rest lengths, etc) are what I cam calling token. I don't remember if my original table has uses 2 nybblized words (0x00 - 0x7F) or not. From this dump it certainly looks like the sysex data is made up of byte-pairs.
Here's where you can see the lack of Casio's missing final F7 at work. Notice the 70 32 in roughly the middle. IIRC that's the CZ asking if the data was received and waiting for the a 70 31 ACK from the computer before dumping the next packet. The first packet of sequencer data does not have an F7 and the second packet doesn't have the sysex header. (Nor are there packet numbers as you might find on other/later sysex dumps.
Finally, at the end, I have the dump request macro. As I have said before, to request each packet of the dump, you can pad the request with ACKs. The CZ-5000 will take them from the buffer as needed and continue to send out packets. Another option is to send out ACKs individually in between packets.
F0 44 00 00 70 30 05 00 01 00 0F 0F 08 06 08 08 0D 07
08 08 01 0A 08 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
0F 0F 02 0A 08 08 02 0A 08 08 02 0A 08 08 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0F 0F 03 0A 08 08 03 0A 08 08
03 0A 08 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0F 0F
04 0A 08 08 04 0A 08 08 04 0A 08 08 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 0F 0F 05 0A 08 08 05 0A 08 08 05 0A
08 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0F 0F 06 0A
08 08 06 0A 08 08 06 0A 08 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 0F 0F 07 0A 08 08 07 0A 08 08 07 0A 08 08
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0F 0F 08 0A 08 08
08 0A 08 08 08 0A 08 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 01 0C 00 0D 0F 0E 00 0C 00 0D 0F 0E
01 0C 00 0D 0F 0E 08 0F 08 0F 70 32 08 0F 08 01 0D 06
08 01 0D 06 0F 01 0D 06 0F 01 0D 06 01 02 0D 06 01 02
0D 06 0F 01 0E 06 0D 01 0D 06 0D 01 0D 06 0C 01 0D 06
0C 01 0D 06 0A 01 0C 06 0A 01 0C 06 0A 01 0C 06 0A 01
0C 06 08 01 0E 06 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F
0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F 0F F7
Cakewalk dump request macro padded with Computer to CZ ACKs (70 31 = "Yes, I got what you just sent, send more, please"):
Casio CZ-5000 Sequencer=F0 44 00 00 70 14 61 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 70 31 F7
2017-01-22 by dishonesttruth1@...
Hi Steve, The sequences should all be greater than 32 measures and will all be in 4/4 time signature. Also there shouldn't be any infinite loops programmed. The songs should generally run for approx 120-140 bars in total (including any repeats) and last between 3-4 mins. It was all quite simple stuff back then - there may have been a few patch change requests here and there (mostly at the start) but that will have been about it - other than the note data.
Thanks
Sean
2017-01-22 by smw-mail@...
I assumed as much and used song mode. In fact, I did it twice--a second time because I needed to turn the "rechannelize"function off. I usually have it set to "record only," but since in this case I wanted 8 CZ tracks to be recorded onto 8 E-Mu tracks, I changed that. See private mail to access the midi file and a CZ dump (wav) of what I had sent it (just the left).
Steve