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HZ and HT: descendant of CZ?

HZ and HT: descendant of CZ?

2002-08-19 by sealed

Hello,

I have been an owner of a CZ-1 for years. I recently bought a CASIO HT-
3000 and to my surprise found that its 'SD synthesis' engine was in fact 
a scaled-down PD synthesis with one analog VCF added.

I believe that its so-called DCO is actually a set of two PD oscillators 
with ring mod and maybe noise mod. They don't seem to have resonant waves 
or 8 step env like CZ, so I said 'a scaled-down PD synthesis.'

There are few resources on the net about its synthesis engine, and my 
speculation is almost based only on my ear and years spent with my CZ.

This could have been my dream machine - if only I could edit the PD oscillator 
section!

If you know something about SD synthesizers (HZ and HT), especially how 
to deeply edit its sound and its relation to PD synthesis, please tell 
me.
Sorry if this is off-topic, and sorry for my bad English as I am a Japanese..
. Thanks.

Best wishes,
Sealed

Re: [CZsynth] HZ and HT: descendant of CZ?

2002-08-19 by Scott Nordlund

>I have been an owner of a CZ-1 for years. I recently bought a CASIO HT-
>3000 and to my surprise found that its 'SD synthesis' engine was in fact
>a scaled-down PD synthesis with one analog VCF added.
>
>I believe that its so-called DCO is actually a set of two PD oscillators
>with ring mod and maybe noise mod. They don't seem to have resonant waves
>or 8 step env like CZ, so I said 'a scaled-down PD synthesis.'

I would kind of doubt it.  I don't have an HT or HZ (though I wouldn't mind 
getting one) but it would seem to me that they use simple PCM waves.  You 
might be able to check by taking both synths apart and comparing hardware.

>There are few resources on the net about its synthesis engine, and my
>speculation is almost based only on my ear and years spent with my CZ.

Unfortunately there is very little technical information out there about any 
casio synth.  I would love to see a webpage somewhere with every model and a 
technical description of how they all work inside, but no one seems to have 
enough information.

>This could have been my dream machine - if only I could edit the PD 
>oscillator
>section!

You could modify it to have a filter input, then run your CZ-1 through it to 
get a similar effect...

>If you know something about SD synthesizers (HZ and HT), especially how
>to deeply edit its sound and its relation to PD synthesis, please tell
me.

That's one of those things that no one seems to know.....

But maybe you could tell me this- do you know the differences between the 
HT-700, HT-3000, and HZ-600 (I think those are the right numbers)?  Do they 
have signifigantly different features and capabilities or are they the same 
synth only repackaged?

>Sorry if this is off-topic, and sorry for my bad English as I am a 
> >Japanese..
>. Thanks.

It's not that off-topic.  And actually your english is very good.

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Re: [CZsynth] HZ and HT: descendant of CZ?

2002-08-19 by sealed

Hello, 

Thank you for your response and I'm glad to talk about and investigate 
my HT and CZ.

I suspect HT uses PD rather than PCM because...

1. There is no accoustic samples, or accoustic simulating short loops 
(like Korg DW-8000 and Ensoniq ESQ-1, etc...). All I hear is familiar 
CZ brass and EP, though I can't exclude entirely the possibility that 
it might be sampled CZ sounds.

2. Some 'waveforms' has a short transient decay. The decay time doesn't 
vary when played at different pitch.

If anyone is interested, I will upload some samples to our files section 
or other places.


As for SD synthesizer models, I suspect they all share the same architecture, 
but HT-6000 is a bit improved version.

HZ-600: First introduced as a synth.
HT-3000/3500/700: Programmable auto accompaniment and a drum machine 
added.
HT-6000: Velocity sense added.

A catalog discription says that HT-6000 has 'Line edit' function. What 
it means is uncertain, but I hope it might be an ability to edit its 
two DCO's individually. 10 analog-like waveforms are printed on the panel 
of HT-6000, which reminds me of my CZ-1's panel. Maybe HT-6000 is the 
most editable in the SD synth line.


As you advised me, I can create similar sounds, putting CZ output into 
a filter. I may someday get an analog synth with an external input.


Best,

Sealed


> From: "Scott Nordlund" <gsn10@...>
> To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [CZsynth] HZ and HT: descendant of CZ?
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:47:40 -0400
> 
> >I have been an owner of a CZ-1 for years. I recently bought a CASIO 
HT-
> >3000 and to my surprise found that its 'SD synthesis' engine was in 
fact
> >a scaled-down PD synthesis with one analog VCF added.
> >
> >I believe that its so-called DCO is actually a set of two PD oscillators
> >with ring mod and maybe noise mod. They don't seem to have resonant 
waves
> >or 8 step env like CZ, so I said 'a scaled-down PD synthesis.'
> 
> I would kind of doubt it.  I don't have an HT or HZ (though I wouldn't 
mind 
> getting one) but it would seem to me that they use simple PCM waves. 
 You 
> might be able to check by taking both synths apart and comparing hardware.
> 
> >There are few resources on the net about its synthesis engine, and 
my
> >speculation is almost based only on my ear and years spent with my 
CZ.
> 
> Unfortunately there is very little technical information out there 
about any 
> casio synth.  I would love to see a webpage somewhere with every model 
and a 
> technical description of how they all work inside, but no one seems 
to have 
> enough information.
> 
> >This could have been my dream machine - if only I could edit the PD 
> >oscillator
> >section!
> 
> You could modify it to have a filter input, then run your CZ-1 through 
it to 
> get a similar effect...
> 
> >If you know something about SD synthesizers (HZ and HT), especially 
how
> >to deeply edit its sound and its relation to PD synthesis, please 
tell
> me.
> 
> That's one of those things that no one seems to know.....
> 
> But maybe you could tell me this- do you know the differences between 
the 
> HT-700, HT-3000, and HZ-600 (I think those are the right numbers)?  
Do they 
> have signifigantly different features and capabilities or are they 
the same 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> synth only repackaged?
> 
> >Sorry if this is off-topic, and sorry for my bad English as I am a 
> > >Japanese..
> >. Thanks.
> 
> It's not that off-topic.  And actually your english is very good.

Re: [CZsynth] HZ and HT: descendant of CZ?

2002-08-20 by Scott Nordlund

>I suspect HT uses PD rather than PCM because...
>
>1. There is no accoustic samples, or accoustic simulating short loops
>(like Korg DW-8000 and Ensoniq ESQ-1, etc...). All I hear is familiar
>CZ brass and EP, though I can't exclude entirely the possibility that
>it might be sampled CZ sounds.
>
>2. Some 'waveforms' has a short transient decay. The decay time doesn't
>vary when played at different pitch.
>
>If anyone is interested, I will upload some samples to our files section
>or other places.

You may be right there.  I initially thought it would be PCM mainly because 
most cheap casios of the time used PCM- it would have been easy for them to 
adapt sample playback architecture from the SK-1 or MT-240 or another 
keyboard of that era and add a filter and basic synth parameters.  But one 
interesting thing to think about is that the HT/HZ synths were market-wise 
between the low end PCM models and the high end PD models.

If you want to investigate more then I suggest looking at the waveforms on 
your computer and comparing the SD waves to the PD waves and see how similar 
they look, or take a peek inside each and see if they've got similar custom 
chips and that sort of thing.

>As for SD synthesizer models, I suspect they all share the same 
>architecture,
>but HT-6000 is a bit improved version.
>
>HZ-600: First introduced as a synth.
>HT-3000/3500/700: Programmable auto accompaniment and a drum machine
added.
>HT-6000: Velocity sense added.
>
>A catalog discription says that HT-6000 has 'Line edit' function. What
>it means is uncertain, but I hope it might be an ability to edit its
>two DCO's individually. 10 analog-like waveforms are printed on the panel
>of HT-6000, which reminds me of my CZ-1's panel. Maybe HT-6000 is the
>most editable in the SD synth line.

This exactly why I wish there was a site somewhere detailing each model...  
"line edit" does sound like a PD term..... but I've never even heard of the 
HT-6000 before.

I definately think I should pick up an HT-700 off of ebay one day...I 
probably wouldn't use it much but it would be fun enough to justify paying 
for it.

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Re: [CZsynth] HZ and HT: descendant of CZ?

2002-08-20 by sealed

Hi,

> You may be right there.  I initially thought it would be PCM mainly 
because 
> most cheap casios of the time used PCM- it would have been easy for 
them to 
> adapt sample playback architecture from the SK-1 or MT-240 or another 
> keyboard of that era and add a filter and basic synth parameters.  
But one 
> interesting thing to think about is that the HT/HZ synths were market-wise 
> between the low end PCM models and the high end PD models.

I came to think HT/HZ resemble not only CZ but Casiotones at that time. 
Casiotones adopted 'CD tone generation system' (simple PCM playback without 
filter) since around 1989. HT/HZ were introduced around 1987 and I suspect 
PCM playback keyboard were still expensive at that time.

Casio proudly printed 'Pulse Code Modulation' on the panels of HTs (not 
on HZ). Like other benders at that time, they seem to only began to adopt 
PCM for rhythm playback.

As an aside, the rhythm sounds in HT (or Casiotones?) remind me of RZ-
1. They seem to be 8bit format or so, and the samples may be reused, 
though it is quite uncertain as I have no experience of actual RZ. Of 
course HT has no sampling ability like RZ.
 
> If you want to investigate more then I suggest looking at the waveforms 
on 
> your computer and comparing the SD waves to the PD waves and see how 
similar 
> they look, or take a peek inside each and see if they've got similar 
custom 
> chips and that sort of thing.

I'm a bit afraid of opening the synths as I have little experience in 
electricity... But I can easily sample the sounds of HT and CZ and look 
at the waveforms, and I think it's a good idea. When I find something 
of interest, I will upload it on the net.

> This exactly why I wish there was a site somewhere detailing each model..
.  
> "line edit" does sound like a PD term..... but I've never even heard 
of the 
> HT-6000 before.

As I found no information on the net about HT-6000, I doubt if it was 
released only in Japan.

> I definately think I should pick up an HT-700 off of ebay one day...
I 
> probably wouldn't use it much but it would be fun enough to justify 
paying 
> for it.

Yes, that's exactly what I thought when I bought my HT. As a faithful 
user of PD synth, I've been interested in HT's mysterious SD synthesis 
engine for years.
All I heard about SD is that its waveform changes 'temporally and dynamically,
' and that it has one analog VCF. I imagined something like Waldorf Microwave, 
but at the same time thought it is very very unlikely. But I wished it 
had some new PD waves modulated by LFO.
Actually, I found that SD is more like a preset CZ with VCF, and that 
its waveforms are not so 'dynamically' sounding. This is not what I wished, 
but I'm enjoying very much tweaking and investigating my HT, and creating 
some new sounds with it.

If you buy an HT, I'd like to add its liabilities I've found.

* It has only one VCF for its 8 polyphony, like KORG Delta or Poly-800. 
VCF EG is always retriggered everytime you play a new key.
* The VCF works mildly (no self-oscillation).
* The VCF has no 'key follow' function. High Keys tend to be very mild 
sounding.
* No portamento.
* Key range is only 5 octave, even when driven by MIDI. And there is 
no 'Octave shift' function.

Of course, there are many limitations... We are often informed about 
them only after we actually owned a synth. But synthesizing with HT is 
still enjoyable for me. I believe if repackaged appropriately, SD synths 
could have sold better, even today.


Best,
Sealed

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