Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

I got to compare these two kits on sheer playability today, and I 
feel compelled to say that I absolutely love the Yamaha (notice how I 
avoided direct comparison--not that I don't have a favorite). I like 
to think that my mind is open, but I can safely say that I didn't 
expect a rubber kit ever to tickle my fancy again. But was I ever 
wrong. The new TP-100 and 120 pads are astonishing--right down to the 
rims. Out of the box, I'd take them hands down over the stock Roland 
mesh pads. Put the old Hart two-plies on those Rolands, and the 
contest gets closer. But the Yamahas are so good, why bother? And to 
all of those people who plan to ditch the DTXT rubber pads in favor 
of the Hart Pro pads, I put the same question. They may have strong 
reasons, but from my perspective, they aren't obvious.  If the look 
of acoustics is what's missing, more power to you. I'm as stodgy as 
they come in that dept. When it comes to simulating the feel of 
acoustics, my position was always that the e-drum that best 
approximates the physical design of an acoustic drum/head will 
automatically play better. Now I'm not so sure. The Yamahas are that 
good; they drive a serious wedge between feel and looks. Even if the 
appearance of the woven-head pads still flips your skirt on a level 
field, when price, pad control, and upkeep (no more busted heads) 
enter the equation, the Yamaha is tough to beat--at least for those 
of us for whom money is an object. 

Maybe this topic will stimulate Vern's old thread about the extent to 
which e-drums are obligated to resemble their acoustic cousins. As 
far as I'm concerned, the DTXT2S is worth another debate on that 
topic, and I've barely scratched the surface on such module-only 
factors as ergonomics and sounds.

Ed

Ed - 
Wow, you must have heard my prayer.  I've been going over and over and
over the decision of which kit to buy ... preferring the Yamaha, but
being torn by exactly the issues you've addressed with Roland and
Hart.  Once again, thank you for another fair, comprehensive and
informative review.  I LOVE this group!

FX

Very well put! Finally a detailed examination of rubber vs mesh 
without any bias. I thought I was the only one who loved Yamaha 
pads. Just to put my two cents into the pot. I've been drumming for 
over 20 years. Ten on and off the road playing night after night. I 
still practice as much as time allows as I have a day job, and 
cannot play as much due to family responsabilities. I hope that 
qualifies me to post about something so personal as how the pad 
plays and feels. My openion and a buck twentyfive will also get you 
a cup of coffie. I play my TP-120 every day, sometimes up to 3 
hours. You would think a "rubber" pad would become annoying after 
three hours but it plays so well it's like playing a top quality 
drum. I hate going to bed because I want to keep playing the darn 
thing. The same DTX kit is in the music store beside a TD-8 kit. Not 
to poo poo on Roland who I have great respect for, but DTX vs TD-8, 
no contest. Xtreme hands down winner. Roland has a bigger following, 
and that's fine with me, but the Xtreme is very under rated. The 
entire line of DTX samples and modules, under rated. Why? Under 
hyped. I am getting off topic, sorry. The samples of the Xtreme and 
triggering is top notch. The TD-8's have a over processed sound that 
just do not sit right in my ears. do not take my word on anything, 
try it for yourself and make an educated evaluation. The xt's rock 
en roll sound wise. Getting back on topic, the pads, they are 
rubber, and they look like little space ships with a red knob. 
Playing those babies live with the thunder rocking out of the PA, I 
say, who cares? I forget all about the space ship look, and rubber 
vs silent mesh. It feels real, sounds real and pounds real good 
through the PA. I've yet to play on the TD-20's so I cannot comment 
about them. I own mesh drums with Roland heads and cannot get into 
the bouncyness of mesh. I love the look of Hart pads though. I know 
we are not into Roland bashing here thank goodness. With that said, 
hopefully the TD-20's are as good as everyone is saying as it only 
makes Yamaha work harder to make better modules. I would add pads, 
but the TP series of pads are TOPS! I personally love my xtreme drum 
samples and wish I had a D Drum and TD-20 beside my module to test 
those unit's sounds.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "drumsonly2002" <dan@n...> wrote:
I thought I was the only one who loved Yamaha 
> pads. Just to put my two cents into the pot. I've been drumming for 
> over 20 years. 
Roland has a bigger following, 
> and that's fine with me, but the Xtreme is very under rated. The 
> entire line of DTX samples and modules, under rated. Why? Under 
> hyped. 

In this group, we can amass a lot of years of experience. I have 
forty years of drumming, and was much relieved at the mesh head 
revolution in e-drums because it made e-drumming more like a-
drumming. The truth is that Roland owns this market, with its 
formidable patents, thus keeping Yamaha, and others, at least at some 
disadvantage if not completely nonplussed. I don't happen to like 
Roland mesh heads (the skins, that is); the Harts are worlds better, 
especially the recently discontinued two-plies (ask Roland about 
their demise). Yamaha, too, would have offered a woven-head option 
had Roland left the door open. But Yamaha seems to have benefited 
from the misfortune; they concentrated on creating a great rubber pad 
instead. I'd love to know how they arrived at it. I'm envisioning 
lots of computer modeling and material research, intense trial and 
error, and firsthand contribution from Yamaha's renowned stable of 
drummers. 

Anyway, at the lower end of the market, Yamaha has certainly held its 
own; the DTXpress is a whopping success. The relative failure of the 
first DTXtreme vis a vis the Roland high end, however, might not have 
boded well for its successor. But what a pleasant surprise. As I 
said, the physical response of the pads leaves nothing to be desired. 
Interestingly, the cymbals feel (and work) a lot like Roland's 
(people in the industry have wondered why the similarity seems to 
have escaped Roland).

I like what I've heard of the module, too, though I have a long way 
to go in plumbling its depths. Despite its innovations, Roland's TD-
20 seems like more of the same from that company to me--not 
necessarily a bad thing if you're a Roland fan with deep pockets, but 
if COSM and $2,000 are not your idea of a good time, the Yamaha picks 
up big points at barely a grand. As far as I'm concerned, the ten-
year-old ddrum module still sets the standard in speed, sound, 
dynamics, and simplicity (ergonomic and processing). But the price 
paid for this elegance is financially and practically steep. It costs 
a lot for what it doesn't do: MIDI functionality is seriously 
limited, its computing ability sadly dated, and its hi hat is largely 
proprietary. So, in comes the Yamaha; we need to know how it acts 
with components from other companies. I hope that more and more 
information on that score is forthcoming from early adopters in the 
groups, as well as from Hart, which seems to have plans to test (I've 
heard that one before), and Pintech.  Before he left Pintech, Brian 
LaRue had major plans for producing components compatible with the 
new Yamaha modules, and some of them have seen the light of day. But 
let's hope that Pintech's engine hasn't stalled since his departure.

Ed

I can tell by your posts Ed you are right on the money and well 
expierenced with drums. If the TD-20 is following in the footsteps 
of the pre TD-20 line they will have the true drum sample hidden and 
overlaid with CSMOS (spelling). That technology may be great for 
other instruments, but I found on the pre TD-20 (due to no hands on 
with TD-20) the drum sound to me, sound "Fake". The over processed 
sample takes on a personality of it's own when amplified over a PA. 
Listening to a pumped up TD-10 kit of a friend of mine, it sounded 
good, but not like a real acoustic drum. This is not a Roland bash, 
just my two cents worth so always see and hear the gear yourself 
first hand. When I was looking for a good set of E Drums, spent a 
lot of time on the TD-10's. Go home then play my humble Alesis D-5 
and it always sounded better. Hmmmm. Probably just me. Go back to 
the store then try again. Back home same thing. So I got a Yamaha 
DTX 2.0. Good module and very acoustic sounding. When I seen the 
Xtreme's being demoed.. that was it.. bought the kit. Finally the 
store brought in a DTX-3 kit and set it up beside a Roland TD-8. The 
3's are more acoustic sounding. Must be the way the drum sample is 
recorded, and how it's processed through the module. I am curious as 
to the samples on the TD-20. Do they exibit that "processed" vs 
natural rich warm sample that Yamaha has captured in their drum 
modules? I did a lot of listening to various modules except the D 
Drum and TD-20 and for me the best sounding samples are achievied by 
Yamaha technology.  If Yamaha has a flaw it is one thing. Not hyped 
up like Roland. Roland got the jump on hype. I noticed in the last 
year, Yamaha is putting more of a push in this area. With these 
Yamaha cites much good and accurate information can be shared in 
educating the consumer about the benifits of all products. I am 
hoping you post a review of the sound samples of the TD-20 vs DTX.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "drumsonly2002" <dan@n...> wrote:
If the TD-20 is following in the footsteps 
> of the pre TD-20 line they will have the true drum sample hidden 
and 
> overlaid with CSMOS (spelling). Must be the way the drum sample is 
> recorded, and how it's processed through the module. I am curious 
as 
> to the samples on the TD-20. Do they exibit that "processed" vs 
> natural rich warm sample that Yamaha has captured in their drum 
> modules? I did a lot of listening to various modules except the D 
> Drum and TD-20 and for me the best sounding samples are achievied 
by 
> Yamaha technology.  If Yamaha has a flaw it is one thing. Not hyped 
> up like Roland. I am 
> hoping you post a review of the sound samples of the TD-20 vs DTX.

Well, that's the knock on the Roland "sound." The samples themselves 
are beaufiful, and well recorded, but the COSM overlays degrade them 
beyond recognition. When Jude compared the quality of the pristine 
Roland TD-10 samples with ddrum's, he found them to be a lot less 
noisy, but the ddrum's lack of processing (any room "effects" are 
already included in the original sample) tends to warm the heart of 
edrummers looking for acoustic-like sounds. Ddrum's compression 
scheme may be old and laden with artifacts, but its sampling method 
still pays obvious dividends. Clavia's intentions are different from 
Roland's, and Yamaha's. The analog triggering section is a profound 
difference.

My short experience with the TD-20 does not change my mind. It sounds 
processed to me; in fact,it is by design. However, I wouldn't be 
surprised to find many sounds on it that knocked me out, if I were 
willing to do the work. But I'm not at this point. If someone dropped 
it on my doorstep, I certainly wouldn't refuse it, but I don't know 
how much it would be able to cut into time spent with my ddrum module 
over time, or make me less interested in the Yamaha DTXT2U. 

One person's comparison of sounds from one module to another is 
always to be taken with a grain of salt. The ability to articulate 
sound characteristics may be an art in itself, but little beyond 
subjective enthusiasm or disdain ultimately gets transmitted, which 
still has some value in terms of confirmation or reassurance. But in 
the absence of a neutral standard, such comparisons tend to come up 
short as opinion. Let's say that that all modules had a voice 
called "Ludwig 1970s' chrome shell snare." Then a definite comparison 
would be at least feasible. But modules have other fish to fry, 
forcing individuals into vaguer impressions based on loyalty, bells 
and whistles, marketing, etc. I, for one, lean distinctly toward the 
Yamaha on every score (they actually make acoustic drums), but I 
wouldn't presume to call it better in some absolute sense, though to 
me its price, its sounds, its ergonomics, and its features make it a 
good buy--to say the least--vis a vis the Roland. I also think that 
Yamaha's e-drum section is more responsive toward consumers like us. 
We actually get to talk to the principals involved (check out 
DTXperience as a case in point), and they come across when we notice 
problems. What price can you place on that?

Ed

To add to this discussion, I have plugged the new pads into my existing
Dtxpress II module and they work fantastic.
 
Trigger settings:
 
TP120S/TP100 use the TP65S
PCY150S use the PCY150
PCY130S use the PCY65S
PCY130 use the PCY65
 
These pads actually trigger louder than the original pads. So if you can't
budget a complete upgrade to a DtxtremeIIS kit, you should consider one or
more pad upgrades.
 
OGD

From: emf  
Subject: [DTXpress] DTXtreme2S

Maybe this topic will stimulate Vern's old thread about the extent to 
which e-drums are obligated to resemble their acoustic cousins. As 
far as I'm concerned, the DTXT2S is worth another debate on that 
topic, and I've barely scratched the surface on such module-only 
factors as ergonomics and sounds.

Ed



 
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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, rdamon@m... wrote:
> These pads actually trigger louder than the original pads. So if 
you can't
> budget a complete upgrade to a DtxtremeIIS kit, you should consider 
one or
> more pad upgrades.

I wonder if the louder triggering of the TP100s means that pads that 
had trouble triggering with enough oomph through Yamaha before 
(Harts) will do better in the DTXT2U?

I have to remark that I too am having the same experiences when 
comparing both modules. The DTXtreme IIs just sounds more organic in 
the acoustic sounds, and overall less processed than the TD20, which 
has some nice features (cymbal modeling), but overall I think pales in 
comparison to the DTXtreme IIs, which costs half as much. As I, and 
others have said here, Yamaha has the advantage of being able to sample 
their own acoustic drums, and they've captured the essence of their 
drum series, there's not that much processing involved with these 
sounds, which makes them much more flexible. With Roland, you're kind 
of forced into the direction their COSM patch is going, and, while 
having a lot of features and pretty icons, there aren't that many 
parameters, and the editing is fairly limited, if you look closely.
Playability, no question, DTXtreme IIs wins again, the pads feel better 
than mesh heads, and I thought the cymbal pads felt better than the 
Roland equivalents, too. In my eyes, the DTXtreme IIs is the overall 
winner, let's hope the buying public sees it the same way and isn't 
steered towards the TD20 by the commission-hungry sales dopes at GC.

Stuart McConaghy

On Wednesday, August 11, 2004, at 09:39  AM, emf wrote:

> Well, that's the knock on the Roland "sound." The samples themselves
> are beaufiful, and well recorded, but the COSM overlays degrade them
> beyond recognition. When Jude compared the quality of the pristine
> Roland TD-10 samples with ddrum's, he found them to be a lot less
> noisy, but the ddrum's lack of processing (any room "effects" are
> already included in the original sample) tends to warm the heart of
> edrummers looking for acoustic-like sounds. Ddrum's compression
> scheme may be old and laden with artifacts, but its sampling method
> still pays obvious dividends. Clavia's intentions are different from
> Roland's, and Yamaha's. The analog triggering section is a profound
> difference.
>
> My short experience with the TD-20 does not change my mind. It sounds
> processed to me; in fact,it is by design. However, I wouldn't be
> surprised to find many sounds on it that knocked me out, if I were
> willing to do the work. But I'm not at this point. If someone dropped
> it on my doorstep, I certainly wouldn't refuse it, but I don't know
> how much it would be able to cut into time spent with my ddrum module
> over time, or make me less interested in the Yamaha DTXT2U.
>
> One person's comparison of sounds from one module to another is
> always to be taken with a grain of salt. The ability to articulate
> sound characteristics may be an art in itself, but little beyond
> subjective enthusiasm or disdain ultimately gets transmitted, which
> still has some value in terms of confirmation or reassurance. But in
> the absence of a neutral standard, such comparisons tend to come up
> short as opinion. Let's say that that all modules had a voice
> called "Ludwig 1970s' chrome shell snare." Then a definite comparison
> would be at least feasible. But modules have other fish to fry,
> forcing individuals into vaguer impressions based on loyalty, bells
> and whistles, marketing, etc. I, for one, lean distinctly toward the
> Yamaha on every score (they actually make acoustic drums), but I
> wouldn't presume to call it better in some absolute sense, though to
> me its price, its sounds, its ergonomics, and its features make it a
> good buy--to say the least--vis a vis the Roland. I also think that
> Yamaha's e-drum section is more responsive toward consumers like us.
> We actually get to talk to the principals involved (check out
> DTXperience as a case in point), and they come across when we notice
> problems. What price can you place on that?
>
> Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, rdamon@m... wrote:
> To add to this discussion, I have plugged the new pads into my 
existing
> Dtxpress II module and they work fantastic.
>  
> Trigger settings:
>  
> TP120S/TP100 use the TP65S
> PCY150S use the PCY150
> PCY130S use the PCY65S
> PCY130 use the PCY65
>  
> These pads actually trigger louder than the original pads. So if 
you can't
> budget a complete upgrade to a DtxtremeIIS kit, you should consider 
one or
> more pad upgrades.

OGD, who's going to be offline for a couple of days asked me to add 
that when using the TP100 with the Dtxpress II kit, the orientation 
of the rim triggers will be slightly off for the crossstick voice, so 
mounting one on the original Dtxpress rack in the same orientation as 
the TP65S won't quite work without turning it clockwise.