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Printing Pictures of Snow

Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-26 by crepuscolino

Hi All,

I was wondering if you could share any tips/links etc. on developing and printing photographs with a lot of snow in them. How to you go about developing your raw files? How do you have snow look white, without looking flat? And then do you print the photo with a think black or grey border? What about a [0,0,0] black border that goes to the edge of the pper, effectively making it look like it was printed with white in on black paper?

I realize, I will be doing a lot of experimenting... but a few pointers would be handy.

Many thanks!
Gianguido

Re: [Digital BW] Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-27 by Cdtobie

Snow has a blue tint; so snow photos look best on bright white paper, not unwhitened papers, to avoid an unattractive yellow tint in the highlights. The highlight detail slider in Lightroom can be used to accent detail in snow highlights, with caution to avoid posterization. 

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@datacolor.com

On Nov 26, 2011, at 6:34 PM, "crepuscolino" <gianguido.cianci@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I was wondering if you could share any tips/links etc. on developing and printing photographs with a lot of snow in them. How to you go about developing your raw files? How do you have snow look white, without looking flat? And then do you print the photo with a think black or grey border? What about a [0,0,0] black border that goes to the edge of the pper, effectively making it look like it was printed with white in on black paper?
> 
> I realize, I will be doing a lot of experimenting... but a few pointers would be handy.
> 
> Many thanks!
> Gianguido
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-27 by crepuscolino

Good point about using relatively cooler paper...

 Thanks!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Snow has a blue tint; so snow photos look best on bright white paper, not unwhitened papers, to avoid an unattractive yellow tint in the highlights. The highlight detail slider in Lightroom can be used to accent detail in snow highlights, with caution to avoid posterization. 
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Imaging Color Solutions
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Nov 26, 2011, at 6:34 PM, "crepuscolino" <gianguido.cianci@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > I was wondering if you could share any tips/links etc. on developing and printing photographs with a lot of snow in them. How to you go about developing your raw files? How do you have snow look white, without looking flat? And then do you print the photo with a think black or grey border? What about a [0,0,0] black border that goes to the edge of the pper, effectively making it look like it was printed with white in on black paper?
> > 
> > I realize, I will be doing a lot of experimenting... but a few pointers would be handy.
> > 
> > Many thanks!
> > Gianguido
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-27 by Michael-K

For snow, as with most other things, you need to do your own experimenting to find your personal expression. Disregard the advice given here or elsewhere about using cool or warm papers, ink, and so on. Try a little of every combination you can put together and when you feel deeply satisfied with your prints, that will be the proper combination of materials because they will be helping you express your inner self. Just get busy and have fun exploring.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-27 by E.Neilsen

indeed !   Snow is no more blue than it is warm. White is not white. What
does the water guru tell the new photographer. Some things just need to be
your interpretation of it. There are some technical things, like when does
white or a highlight fail to show/hold detail?  That is not so much personal
as device dependent; monitor representation and hard numbers along with
software and ink/paper.  Go discover!  
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael-K
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 4:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow
 
  
For snow, as with most other things, you need to do your own experimenting
to find your personal expression. Disregard the advice given here or
elsewhere about using cool or warm papers, ink, and so on. Try a little of
every combination you can put together and when you feel deeply satisfied
with your prints, that will be the proper combination of materials because
they will be helping you express your inner self. Just get busy and have fun
exploring.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-28 by crepuscolino

Yes, I am foreseeing a lot of testing and fooling around. Especially since I am new to inkjet printing overall. Can you guys suggest some decent, and decently cheap, paper for proofs etc? I am drawn to thicker matte natural (as opposed to clinical white) papers, but as I am a complete beginner, I would welcome recommendations for all types of paper...

Hope and look forward to being able to pay your help forward some day soon.

Thanks!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> indeed !   Snow is no more blue than it is warm. White is not white. What
> does the water guru tell the new photographer. Some things just need to be
> your interpretation of it. There are some technical things, like when does
> white or a highlight fail to show/hold detail?  That is not so much personal
> as device dependent; monitor representation and hard numbers along with
> software and ink/paper.  Go discover!  
>  
> Eric Neilsen
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> Dallas, TX 75226
>  
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> skype me with ejprinter
> Let's Talk Photography
>  
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael-K
> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 4:13 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow
>  
>   
> For snow, as with most other things, you need to do your own experimenting
> to find your personal expression. Disregard the advice given here or
> elsewhere about using cool or warm papers, ink, and so on. Try a little of
> every combination you can put together and when you feel deeply satisfied
> with your prints, that will be the proper combination of materials because
> they will be helping you express your inner self. Just get busy and have fun
> exploring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-28 by mrjimbo

Hi,
Ok I've read the thread and I sort of don't think you have your answer yet..  To get there first imagine yourself a painter.. (ok my piers don't laugh) If your doing snow you will put paint on the canvas.. but in our case we can't go whiter then the media so we need to pull back from the paper white to show texture.  So what I'm trying to say is your material selection is important.. Whatever your paper white is.. You must pull it back a tad to show texture.. keep your values of your smallest highlights at or just below your paper white .. Snow can be cool or warm ...depends on the light.. or shadow.. This is going to sound weird but your paper or canvas choice is really very important for this subject.. if we had white ink in our printers it would be easy but we don't.. What I'm trying to say is that if you choose a paper that is notably off white your in trouble.. as the job wants to be less then that so that you can show texture. I use an Innova paper for this type of scene..works for me and I know what to do with it. I'm not suggesting that you go there..Just pick one that works for you with a good white point and stick with that so you can be consistent.. You can bust your but in the puter getting it looking great but drop it on a few papers variations and you'll quickly see how fast you loose the magic if it's on the wrong paper. Snow is something that it's a good idea to watch your numbers on in Photoshop.. Once you know where they need to be for a particular paper it's easy.. 

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: crepuscolino 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:56 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow


    
  Yes, I am foreseeing a lot of testing and fooling around. Especially since I am new to inkjet printing overall. Can you guys suggest some decent, and decently cheap, paper for proofs etc? I am drawn to thicker matte natural (as opposed to clinical white) papers, but as I am a complete beginner, I would welcome recommendations for all types of paper...

  Hope and look forward to being able to pay your help forward some day soon.

  Thanks!

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
  >
  > indeed ! Snow is no more blue than it is warm. White is not white. What
  > does the water guru tell the new photographer. Some things just need to be
  > your interpretation of it. There are some technical things, like when does
  > white or a highlight fail to show/hold detail? That is not so much personal
  > as device dependent; monitor representation and hard numbers along with
  > software and ink/paper. Go discover! 
  > 
  > Eric Neilsen
  > Eric Neilsen Photography
  > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
  > Dallas, TX 75226
  > 
  > www.ericneilsenphotography.com
  > skype me with ejprinter
  > Let's Talk Photography
  > 
  > _____ 
  > 
  > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael-K
  > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 4:13 PM
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow
  > 
  > 
  > For snow, as with most other things, you need to do your own experimenting
  > to find your personal expression. Disregard the advice given here or
  > elsewhere about using cool or warm papers, ink, and so on. Try a little of
  > every combination you can put together and when you feel deeply satisfied
  > with your prints, that will be the proper combination of materials because
  > they will be helping you express your inner self. Just get busy and have fun
  > exploring.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-28 by Cdtobie

>>indeed ! Snow is no more blue than it is warm. White is not white. What
does the water guru tell the new photographer. Some things just need to be
your interpretation of it. There are some technical things, like when does
white or a highlight fail to show/hold detail? That is not so much personal
as device dependent; monitor representation and hard numbers along with
software and ink/paper. Go discover! 

Ever shot polar bears? It teaches you two things: the bears are a warm white, the snow a cool white. In black and white you can remove this dimension, but it color, it pokes you right in the eye. 

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@...
www.datacolor.com

On Nov 27, 2011, at 6:20 PM, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

> indeed ! Snow is no more blue than it is warm. White is not white. What
> does the water guru tell the new photographer. Some things just need to be
> your interpretation of it. There are some technical things, like when does
> white or a highlight fail to show/hold detail? That is not so much personal
> as device dependent; monitor representation and hard numbers along with
> software and ink/paper. Go discover!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-28 by Cdtobie

>>Hi,
Ok I've read the thread and I sort of don't think you have your answer yet.. To get there first imagine yourself a painter.. (ok my piers don't laugh) If your doing snow you will put paint on the canvas.. but in our case we can't go whiter then the media so we need to pull back from the paper white to show texture.

This "peer" finds that a very valid description, in fact I regularly teach photography in terms of a painter's palette. In this case it's much more like watercolors without using Chinese white, instead if oil on canvas: paper white (with the exception of the new proofing printers with white ink) is the only white you get, so everything else needs to be derived from this, plus colorant. Which is why having the specular highlights in platinum blonde hair burn out to a blue paper, or the highlights in snow ramp from blue to a natural, more yellow paper, has problems. 

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@...
www.datacolor.com

On Nov 28, 2011, at 2:49 AM, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

> Hi,
> Ok I've read the thread and I sort of don't think you have your answer yet.. To get there first imagine yourself a painter.. (ok my piers don't laugh) If your doing snow you will put paint on the canvas.. but in our case we can't go whiter then the media so we need to pull back from the paper white to show texture.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-28 by mrjimbo

Yup you've got it.. for me sometimes it's hard to explain some things... after seeing your post one more thing.. .. well one of your fancy tools :-).. could measure the paper ...then using Photoshop create the separation  necessary for the whites to work with the paper. 
Polar bears... yes ...I was privileged to shoot them some years back.. sort of like shooting ducks in a barrel from the snow coach but fun non the less. I've always loved bears..

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cdtobie 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 1:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow


    
  >>Hi,
  Ok I've read the thread and I sort of don't think you have your answer yet.. To get there first imagine yourself a painter.. (ok my piers don't laugh) If your doing snow you will put paint on the canvas.. but in our case we can't go whiter then the media so we need to pull back from the paper white to show texture.

  This "peer" finds that a very valid description, in fact I regularly teach photography in terms of a painter's palette. In this case it's much more like watercolors without using Chinese white, instead if oil on canvas: paper white (with the exception of the new proofing printers with white ink) is the only white you get, so everything else needs to be derived from this, plus colorant. Which is why having the specular highlights in platinum blonde hair burn out to a blue paper, or the highlights in snow ramp from blue to a natural, more yellow paper, has problems. 

  C. David Tobie
  Global Product Technology Manager
  Imaging Color Solutions
  Datacolor inc. 
  cdtobie@...
  www.datacolor.com

  On Nov 28, 2011, at 2:49 AM, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

  > Hi,
  > Ok I've read the thread and I sort of don't think you have your answer yet.. To get there first imagine yourself a painter.. (ok my piers don't laugh) If your doing snow you will put paint on the canvas.. but in our case we can't go whiter then the media so we need to pull back from the paper white to show texture.

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-28 by C D Tobie

On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:39 AM, mrjimbo wrote:

> Yup you've got it.. for me sometimes it's hard to explain some things... after seeing your post one more thing.. .. well one of your fancy tools :-).. could measure the paper ...then using Photoshop create the separation necessary for the whites to work with the paper. 

Yes, in developing the software for our "fancy tools" I found it necessary to offer two ramps to white, one that controlled the color as far as it can, then loses to the tone of the paper white at the last minute (the solutions most people expect, and fine for most things,  but which gets ugly when the paper tone and the image content aren't harmonious) and one which starts the adjustment of the white balance further back in the density ramp, so to avoid any jarring last minute changes.

> Polar bears... yes ...I was privileged to shoot them some years back.. sort of like shooting ducks in a barrel from the snow coach but fun non the less. I've always loved bears..

I hesitated to even mention polar bears, it being a loaded subject these days, but slightly buff colored bears against blue-tinted snow is the clearest example of different tints in near whites that I can come up with which is in everyone's memory bank. I'm always amused to see images where someone wasn't happy with the dingy tint in the bear's fur, and "color corrects" them to a nice bluish white to match the snow. They end up looking like little old ladies who have used bluing in their hair. Anyone here old enough to remember hair bluing? I bet you could soak natural watercolor paper in it, and end up with "whitened" paper...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager


Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@...
Skype: cdtobie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-29 by E.Neilsen

There are some absolute colors and then there are emotional colors, and
snow, is the later. But Jimbo points about painting, and white with detail,
well that's what were talking about as printers; knowing how to set a white
with texture and context onto paper.   My point early on David was that snow
isn't blue, or warm, or. it can be influenced by the things around it. Is
the snow cooler than a bear but warmer than the open shade on a cloudy
bright day with .. to fill the .. that bounces off the . that reflects on
the.. that .   well, looked right. 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C D Tobie
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:13 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow
 
  

On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:39 AM, mrjimbo wrote:

> Yup you've got it.. for me sometimes it's hard to explain some things...
after seeing your post one more thing.. .. well one of your fancy tools
:-).. could measure the paper ...then using Photoshop create the separation
necessary for the whites to work with the paper. 

Yes, in developing the software for our "fancy tools" I found it necessary
to offer two ramps to white, one that controlled the color as far as it can,
then loses to the tone of the paper white at the last minute (the solutions
most people expect, and fine for most things, but which gets ugly when the
paper tone and the image content aren't harmonious) and one which starts the
adjustment of the white balance further back in the density ramp, so to
avoid any jarring last minute changes.

> Polar bears... yes ...I was privileged to shoot them some years back..
sort of like shooting ducks in a barrel from the snow coach but fun non the
less. I've always loved bears..

I hesitated to even mention polar bears, it being a loaded subject these
days, but slightly buff colored bears against blue-tinted snow is the
clearest example of different tints in near whites that I can come up with
which is in everyone's memory bank. I'm always amused to see images where
someone wasn't happy with the dingy tint in the bear's fur, and "color
corrects" them to a nice bluish white to match the snow. They end up looking
like little old ladies who have used bluing in their hair. Anyone here old
enough to remember hair bluing? I bet you could soak natural watercolor
paper in it, and end up with "whitened" paper...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager

Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email: cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com> 
Skype: cdtobie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-29 by Craig Yorke

Here is an excellent article on why ice and snow appear blue, 
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/blue-icebergs.shtml. In fact they 
are not blue but light that passes through them is blue. So looking at a 
snowfield with peaks and crests, similar to looking at waves on the ocean, 
you will see light penetrating the snow caps and looking blue, because it is 
blue. Besides that is the fact that we think cold when we think blue so blue 
snow makes scientific and emotional sense.

Craig



Craig Yorke
President
Image House Digital Inc,
5729 McCully Street
Halifax, NS, Canada B3K 1R4
p: 902-482-1823
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: E.Neilsen
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:24 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

There are some absolute colors and then there are emotional colors, and
snow, is the later. But Jimbo points about painting, and white with detail,
well that's what were talking about as printers; knowing how to set a white
with texture and context onto paper.   My point early on David was that snow
isn't blue, or warm, or. it can be influenced by the things around it. Is
the snow cooler than a bear but warmer than the open shade on a cloudy
bright day with .. to fill the .. that bounces off the . that reflects on
the.. that .   well, looked right.

Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226

www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography

  _____

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C D Tobie
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:13 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow



On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:39 AM, mrjimbo wrote:

> Yup you've got it.. for me sometimes it's hard to explain some things...
after seeing your post one more thing.. .. well one of your fancy tools
:-).. could measure the paper ...then using Photoshop create the separation
necessary for the whites to work with the paper.

Yes, in developing the software for our "fancy tools" I found it necessary
to offer two ramps to white, one that controlled the color as far as it can,
then loses to the tone of the paper white at the last minute (the solutions
most people expect, and fine for most things, but which gets ugly when the
paper tone and the image content aren't harmonious) and one which starts the
adjustment of the white balance further back in the density ramp, so to
avoid any jarring last minute changes.

> Polar bears... yes ...I was privileged to shoot them some years back..
sort of like shooting ducks in a barrel from the snow coach but fun non the
less. I've always loved bears..

I hesitated to even mention polar bears, it being a loaded subject these
days, but slightly buff colored bears against blue-tinted snow is the
clearest example of different tints in near whites that I can come up with
which is in everyone's memory bank. I'm always amused to see images where
someone wasn't happy with the dingy tint in the bear's fur, and "color
corrects" them to a nice bluish white to match the snow. They end up looking
like little old ladies who have used bluing in their hair. Anyone here old
enough to remember hair bluing? I bet you could soak natural watercolor
paper in it, and end up with "whitened" paper...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager

Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email: cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com>
Skype: cdtobie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-29 by mrjimbo

Eric, 
You've said another part of what's missing.. This actually , to me anyway, is a good thread as it is about one of the harder areas we have to deal with as printers.. It's funny but most seem to be on a race for the largest gamut and color but the subtitles in this areas of conversation in my opinion bring more value to a print. 
I don't know how many of you do architectural photography or painting...duh..  Interior walls are just filled, typically, with subtle personality ...reflections ...shadows... etc.. 
All our scanners here are set up not to make white 255.. as that is no information.. It's all pulled back a bit so I have some room. The thing that screws me up the most is changing materials to print on.. 
Which leads me too.. I think most of us get comfortable with one or two papers that seem to work the best all around for us.. This is a B&W group so that is quite a bit more wide open then for a color print I think.. So what are you guys or gals favorite fine art materials for B&W  and Color..

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: E.Neilsen 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:24 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow


    
  There are some absolute colors and then there are emotional colors, and
  snow, is the later. But Jimbo points about painting, and white with detail,
  well that's what were talking about as printers; knowing how to set a white
  with texture and context onto paper. My point early on David was that snow
  isn't blue, or warm, or. it can be influenced by the things around it. Is
  the snow cooler than a bear but warmer than the open shade on a cloudy
  bright day with .. to fill the .. that bounces off the . that reflects on
  the.. that . well, looked right. 

  Eric Neilsen
  Eric Neilsen Photography
  4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
  Dallas, TX 75226

  www.ericneilsenphotography.com
  skype me with ejprinter
  Let's Talk Photography

  _____ 

  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C D Tobie
  Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:13 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow



  On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:39 AM, mrjimbo wrote:

  > Yup you've got it.. for me sometimes it's hard to explain some things...
  after seeing your post one more thing.. .. well one of your fancy tools
  :-).. could measure the paper ...then using Photoshop create the separation
  necessary for the whites to work with the paper. 

  Yes, in developing the software for our "fancy tools" I found it necessary
  to offer two ramps to white, one that controlled the color as far as it can,
  then loses to the tone of the paper white at the last minute (the solutions
  most people expect, and fine for most things, but which gets ugly when the
  paper tone and the image content aren't harmonious) and one which starts the
  adjustment of the white balance further back in the density ramp, so to
  avoid any jarring last minute changes.

  > Polar bears... yes ...I was privileged to shoot them some years back..
  sort of like shooting ducks in a barrel from the snow coach but fun non the
  less. I've always loved bears..

  I hesitated to even mention polar bears, it being a loaded subject these
  days, but slightly buff colored bears against blue-tinted snow is the
  clearest example of different tints in near whites that I can come up with
  which is in everyone's memory bank. I'm always amused to see images where
  someone wasn't happy with the dingy tint in the bear's fur, and "color
  corrects" them to a nice bluish white to match the snow. They end up looking
  like little old ladies who have used bluing in their hair. Anyone here old
  enough to remember hair bluing? I bet you could soak natural watercolor
  paper in it, and end up with "whitened" paper...

  C. David Tobie
  Global Product Technology Manager

  Datacolor
  5 Princess Road
  Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
  609.924.2189
  www.datacolor.com

  Phone: 207.685.9248
  Mobile: 207.312.0448
  Fax: 207.685.4455
  Email: cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com> 
  Skype: cdtobie

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-29 by EJ Neilsen

If you have been shooting for any length of time and printing, you know that light has properties and the surfaces it bounces off of have properties. It all combines together and it’s up to the photographer to make an intellectual decision about how they want to control it; either control before capture or after capture, or both - how the expression of that light spreading the luminance and hues throughout the image. 

 

White, and skin tones happen to be some of the more in your face areas of concern because that’s where we typically judge the right color.  Unless there are trapped particles in the snow, like dirt, soot, etc, the snow should be as color less as water and then it is influenced by the container; in this case the landscape.  

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Yorke
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:58 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

 

  

Here is an excellent article on why ice and snow appear blue, 
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/blue-icebergs.shtml. In fact they 
are not blue but light that passes through them is blue. So looking at a 
snowfield with peaks and crests, similar to looking at waves on the ocean, 
you will see light penetrating the snow caps and looking blue, because it is 
blue. Besides that is the fact that we think cold when we think blue so blue 
snow makes scientific and emotional sense.

Craig

Craig Yorke
President
Image House Digital Inc,
5729 McCully Street
Halifax, NS, Canada B3K 1R4
p: 902-482-1823
-----Original Message----- 
From: E.Neilsen
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:24 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

There are some absolute colors and then there are emotional colors, and
snow, is the later. But Jimbo points about painting, and white with detail,
well that's what were talking about as printers; knowing how to set a white
with texture and context onto paper. My point early on David was that snow
isn't blue, or warm, or. it can be influenced by the things around it. Is
the snow cooler than a bear but warmer than the open shade on a cloudy
bright day with .. to fill the .. that bounces off the . that reflects on
the.. that . well, looked right.

Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226

www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography

_____

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> 
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of C D Tobie
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:13 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:39 AM, mrjimbo wrote:

> Yup you've got it.. for me sometimes it's hard to explain some things...
after seeing your post one more thing.. .. well one of your fancy tools
:-).. could measure the paper ...then using Photoshop create the separation
necessary for the whites to work with the paper.

Yes, in developing the software for our "fancy tools" I found it necessary
to offer two ramps to white, one that controlled the color as far as it can,
then loses to the tone of the paper white at the last minute (the solutions
most people expect, and fine for most things, but which gets ugly when the
paper tone and the image content aren't harmonious) and one which starts the
adjustment of the white balance further back in the density ramp, so to
avoid any jarring last minute changes.

> Polar bears... yes ...I was privileged to shoot them some years back..
sort of like shooting ducks in a barrel from the snow coach but fun non the
less. I've always loved bears..

I hesitated to even mention polar bears, it being a loaded subject these
days, but slightly buff colored bears against blue-tinted snow is the
clearest example of different tints in near whites that I can come up with
which is in everyone's memory bank. I'm always amused to see images where
someone wasn't happy with the dingy tint in the bear's fur, and "color
corrects" them to a nice bluish white to match the snow. They end up looking
like little old ladies who have used bluing in their hair. Anyone here old
enough to remember hair bluing? I bet you could soak natural watercolor
paper in it, and end up with "whitened" paper...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager

Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email: cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com>  <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com>
Skype: cdtobie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-29 by Michael

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Craig Yorke" <craig@...> wrote:
>
> Here is an excellent article on why ice and snow appear blue, 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/blue-icebergs.shtml. In fact they 
> are not blue but light that passes through them is blue. So looking at a 
> snowfield with peaks and crests, similar to looking at waves on the ocean, 
> you will see light penetrating the snow caps and looking blue, because it is 
> blue. Besides that is the fact that we think cold when we think blue so blue 
> snow makes scientific and emotional sense.
> 
> Craig

If one is a scientific or documentary photographer, then it will be important to capture the color in snow as it exists. But if you see yourself as a fine artist (not meant to imply better or more noble) then you may be inclined to print snow any way you see fit, whether warm, cold, colored, tinted, or whatever. Granted, some may not care for your work, but its not about them, is it? And those who find they do care for your work, you will have made a connection at a very deep level that is infrequent and truly special.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-29 by EJ Neilsen

Yes Michael, I don't see many photogs actually using their color charts in
the field and doing profiles for these types of shots.  Scientific is the
only type I can see it being critical unless the documentary is a science
based film.  And I like the way you said the color in snow and not the color
of snow. 

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:20 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

 

  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> , "Craig Yorke"
<craig@...> wrote:
>
> Here is an excellent article on why ice and snow appear blue, 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/blue-icebergs.shtml. In fact they

> are not blue but light that passes through them is blue. So looking at a 
> snowfield with peaks and crests, similar to looking at waves on the ocean,

> you will see light penetrating the snow caps and looking blue, because it
is 
> blue. Besides that is the fact that we think cold when we think blue so
blue 
> snow makes scientific and emotional sense.
> 
> Craig

If one is a scientific or documentary photographer, then it will be
important to capture the color in snow as it exists. But if you see yourself
as a fine artist (not meant to imply better or more noble) then you may be
inclined to print snow any way you see fit, whether warm, cold, colored,
tinted, or whatever. Granted, some may not care for your work, but its not
about them, is it? And those who find they do care for your work, you will
have made a connection at a very deep level that is infrequent and truly
special.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-29 by Paul

"mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
>
>
> ... This actually, to me anyway, is a good thread as it is about one of the harder areas we have to deal with as printers...


I agree also.  There is a whole lot more to good B&W printing than inks. 

With respect to the paper & ink, I tend not to favor yellow snow.  The more neutral carbon approaches work fine on the wall.  (And as I write this gallery brochures are being printed with the dyes.)

I tend to increase local contrast of the snow more up to what you'd see if you walked up to it.  
  

I'm most fascinated with the patterns that snow can have.  That was what I emphasized in working up this shot:
http://www.paulroark.com/New-Army-Snow.jpg

There are a lot of variables here, many subjective.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I don't know how many of you do architectural photography or painting...duh..  Interior walls are just filled, typically, with subtle personality ...reflections ...shadows... etc.. 
> All our scanners here are set up not to make white 255.. as that is no information.. It's all pulled back a bit so I have some room. The thing that screws me up the most is changing materials to print on.. 
> Which leads me too.. I think most of us get comfortable with one or two papers that seem to work the best all around for us.. This is a B&W group so that is quite a bit more wide open then for a color print I think.. So what are you guys or gals favorite fine art materials for B&W  and Color..
> 
> jimbo
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: E.Neilsen 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:24 PM
>   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow
> 
> 
>     
>   There are some absolute colors and then there are emotional colors, and
>   snow, is the later. But Jimbo points about painting, and white with detail,
>   well that's what were talking about as printers; knowing how to set a white
>   with texture and context onto paper. My point early on David was that snow
>   isn't blue, or warm, or. it can be influenced by the things around it. Is
>   the snow cooler than a bear but warmer than the open shade on a cloudy
>   bright day with .. to fill the .. that bounces off the . that reflects on
>   the.. that . well, looked right. 
> 
>   Eric Neilsen
>   Eric Neilsen Photography
>   4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
>   Dallas, TX 75226
> 
>   www.ericneilsenphotography.com
>   skype me with ejprinter
>   Let's Talk Photography
> 
>   _____ 
> 
>   From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C D Tobie
>   Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:13 AM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow
> 
> 
> 
>   On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:39 AM, mrjimbo wrote:
> 
>   > Yup you've got it.. for me sometimes it's hard to explain some things...
>   after seeing your post one more thing.. .. well one of your fancy tools
>   :-).. could measure the paper ...then using Photoshop create the separation
>   necessary for the whites to work with the paper. 
> 
>   Yes, in developing the software for our "fancy tools" I found it necessary
>   to offer two ramps to white, one that controlled the color as far as it can,
>   then loses to the tone of the paper white at the last minute (the solutions
>   most people expect, and fine for most things, but which gets ugly when the
>   paper tone and the image content aren't harmonious) and one which starts the
>   adjustment of the white balance further back in the density ramp, so to
>   avoid any jarring last minute changes.
> 
>   > Polar bears... yes ...I was privileged to shoot them some years back..
>   sort of like shooting ducks in a barrel from the snow coach but fun non the
>   less. I've always loved bears..
> 
>   I hesitated to even mention polar bears, it being a loaded subject these
>   days, but slightly buff colored bears against blue-tinted snow is the
>   clearest example of different tints in near whites that I can come up with
>   which is in everyone's memory bank. I'm always amused to see images where
>   someone wasn't happy with the dingy tint in the bear's fur, and "color
>   corrects" them to a nice bluish white to match the snow. They end up looking
>   like little old ladies who have used bluing in their hair. Anyone here old
>   enough to remember hair bluing? I bet you could soak natural watercolor
>   paper in it, and end up with "whitened" paper...
> 
>   C. David Tobie
>   Global Product Technology Manager
> 
>   Datacolor
>   5 Princess Road
>   Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
>   609.924.2189
>   www.datacolor.com
> 
>   Phone: 207.685.9248
>   Mobile: 207.312.0448
>   Fax: 207.685.4455
>   Email: cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com> 
>   Skype: cdtobie
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-29 by mrjimbo

Who hooo.. thanks for sharing the  image Paul.. really interesting.. what size do you do the print? Larger might be quite provacative.. 
This one would also maybe be interesting to see in color.. 

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:37 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow


    
  "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
  >
  >
  > ... This actually, to me anyway, is a good thread as it is about one of the harder areas we have to deal with as printers...

  I agree also. There is a whole lot more to good B&W printing than inks. 

  With respect to the paper & ink, I tend not to favor yellow snow. The more neutral carbon approaches work fine on the wall. (And as I write this gallery brochures are being printed with the dyes.)

  I tend to increase local contrast of the snow more up to what you'd see if you walked up to it. 


  I'm most fascinated with the patterns that snow can have. That was what I emphasized in working up this shot:
  http://www.paulroark.com/New-Army-Snow.jpg

  There are a lot of variables here, many subjective. 

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com 

  > I don't know how many of you do architectural photography or painting...duh.. Interior walls are just filled, typically, with subtle personality ...reflections ...shadows... etc.. 
  > All our scanners here are set up not to make white 255.. as that is no information.. It's all pulled back a bit so I have some room. The thing that screws me up the most is changing materials to print on.. 
  > Which leads me too.. I think most of us get comfortable with one or two papers that seem to work the best all around for us.. This is a B&W group so that is quite a bit more wide open then for a color print I think.. So what are you guys or gals favorite fine art materials for B&W and Color..
  > 
  > jimbo
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: E.Neilsen 
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:24 PM
  > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > There are some absolute colors and then there are emotional colors, and
  > snow, is the later. But Jimbo points about painting, and white with detail,
  > well that's what were talking about as printers; knowing how to set a white
  > with texture and context onto paper. My point early on David was that snow
  > isn't blue, or warm, or. it can be influenced by the things around it. Is
  > the snow cooler than a bear but warmer than the open shade on a cloudy
  > bright day with .. to fill the .. that bounces off the . that reflects on
  > the.. that . well, looked right. 
  > 
  > Eric Neilsen
  > Eric Neilsen Photography
  > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
  > Dallas, TX 75226
  > 
  > www.ericneilsenphotography.com
  > skype me with ejprinter
  > Let's Talk Photography
  > 
  > _____ 
  > 
  > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C D Tobie
  > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:13 AM
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:39 AM, mrjimbo wrote:
  > 
  > > Yup you've got it.. for me sometimes it's hard to explain some things...
  > after seeing your post one more thing.. .. well one of your fancy tools
  > :-).. could measure the paper ...then using Photoshop create the separation
  > necessary for the whites to work with the paper. 
  > 
  > Yes, in developing the software for our "fancy tools" I found it necessary
  > to offer two ramps to white, one that controlled the color as far as it can,
  > then loses to the tone of the paper white at the last minute (the solutions
  > most people expect, and fine for most things, but which gets ugly when the
  > paper tone and the image content aren't harmonious) and one which starts the
  > adjustment of the white balance further back in the density ramp, so to
  > avoid any jarring last minute changes.
  > 
  > > Polar bears... yes ...I was privileged to shoot them some years back..
  > sort of like shooting ducks in a barrel from the snow coach but fun non the
  > less. I've always loved bears..
  > 
  > I hesitated to even mention polar bears, it being a loaded subject these
  > days, but slightly buff colored bears against blue-tinted snow is the
  > clearest example of different tints in near whites that I can come up with
  > which is in everyone's memory bank. I'm always amused to see images where
  > someone wasn't happy with the dingy tint in the bear's fur, and "color
  > corrects" them to a nice bluish white to match the snow. They end up looking
  > like little old ladies who have used bluing in their hair. Anyone here old
  > enough to remember hair bluing? I bet you could soak natural watercolor
  > paper in it, and end up with "whitened" paper...
  > 
  > C. David Tobie
  > Global Product Technology Manager
  > 
  > Datacolor
  > 5 Princess Road
  > Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
  > 609.924.2189
  > www.datacolor.com
  > 
  > Phone: 207.685.9248
  > Mobile: 207.312.0448
  > Fax: 207.685.4455
  > Email: cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com> 
  > Skype: cdtobie
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-30 by Paul

"mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
>
> Who hooo.. thanks for sharing the  image Paul.. really interesting.. what size do you do the print? Larger might be quite provacative.. 


Thanks.  Actually, that one has never been printed large.  It's from a last generation APS-C sensor and would probably max out at 16x20.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-30 by Paul

"mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
>
> ... I think most of us get comfortable with one or two papers that seem to work the best all around for us... 

>So what are you guys or gals favorite fine art materials for B&W   ...


Today I printed Arches uncoated watercolor paper with carbon and Red River Polar Pearl Metallic with dyes for high gloss brochures.  I seem to be gravitating to these materials for most.  (I also printed a carbon on Museo sepia tone old photo reproduction, but that is not really my fine art work.)

I'm tired of the flaking, sensitivity to abrasion, curl of roll paper, etc. of coated matte inkjet papers; Arches 22 x 30 sheets are cheaper, easier, readily available, and more robust, in my view.  When I look at the images on my walls, those on Arches are probably the best.  And, I think they come the closest to the "carbon on cotton" paradigm.  

When I look at cards, the metallic paper dyes are the best -- highest impact, sharpest looking.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: Printing Pictures of Snow

2011-11-30 by crepuscolino

Hello all,

I'm glad my initial post generated such an interesting thread... I think that's as far as my contributions to the group will be for a while.

I am especially grateful to Paul's posting of his picture: The snow looks gritty, almost dirty, in it... but more interestingly to me, the picture seems framed by a thin white stroke and a black border. Now, if using a matt then one could get a black one, of some shade of black or another. 

But what about printing that same photograph with the idea of no matting or framing? Have you ever tried printing a thick black, edge-to-edge, border? That's a lot of ink, I know, but I am curious. My new printer should arrive tomorrow evening, and I will be testing these ideas and any other the group might suggest ASAP! Can't wait!!!

Ciao,
Gianguido

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