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2014-12-06 by bnla78@...
Hello,
For some reason, a gallery where I am willing to exhibit asks for Piezography prints; I actually use MIS MK BO. Is it an easy switch to use Jon Cone's Piezography Shade 1 as a replacement ? Would I need new profiles ?
Another question : all the QTR Curves I see for piezography never offers BO. Is there some incompatibility with it ?
Thanks !
2014-12-07 by David Kachel
2014-12-08 by Elliot Puritz
Others having more detailed knowledge than I can likely respond with more insight and certainty. I believe that the two branded inks are incompatible on the paper, and artifacts are likely to occur. Thus new profiles which incorporate the two "brands" of ink are not likely to be of value. I would appreciate confirmation from others here. If the gallery desires prints accomplished with Piezography branded inks then I suspect that even IF you could mix MIS and Piezography inks that the Gallery requires only ink sets available from Jon Cone; such inks carry the trademark of "Piezography". As far as new profiles for the MIS MI BO set, I believe that Paul graciously posted a few new profiles for his BO work flow. The link is probably on the PDF or article. Elliot
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 5:25 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] switch MIS K Eboni with Piezography Shade 1 ? Hello, For some reason, a gallery where I am willing to exhibit asks for Piezography prints; I actually use MIS MK BO. Is it an easy switch to use Jon Cone's Piezography Shade 1 as a replacement ? Would I need new profiles ? Another question : all the QTR Curves I see for piezography never offers BO. Is there some incompatibility with it ? Thanks !
2014-12-08 by Elliot Puritz
That's an interesting point David. I thought that "Piezography" was a trademark that appropriately belonged to Jon Cone and alluded to all of his distinct inks-not simply carbon. Would one be able to use the admittedly awkward combination of, for example, "Piezography MIS Carbon Inks" or some such misleading statement? Is Piezography a general term that defines the process of printing black and white images digitally with pigment inks, or rather a reference to a distinct product line and process? Then again, I am not a patent attorney and perhaps you are correct. Elliot
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 6:31 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] switch MIS K Eboni with Piezography Shade 1 ? I am guessing that gallery learned a buzzword and want to use it. Tell them that Piezography is just one company's term for carbon inks and that you use carbon inks too, just not that brand. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com EMAIL: david@... PO Box 93 Fort Davis, TX 79734 (432) 386-5787 For some reason, a gallery where I am willing to exhibit asks for Piezography prints; I actually use MIS MK BO. Is it an easy switch to use Jon Cone's Piezography Shade 1 as a replacement ? Would I need new profiles ?
2014-12-08 by David Kachel
That's an interesting point David. I thought that "Piezography" was a trademark that appropriately belonged to Jon Cone and alluded to all of his distinct inks-not simply carbon. Would one be able to use the admittedly awkward combination of, for example, "Piezography MIS Carbon Inks" or some such misleading statement? Is Piezography a general term that defines the process of printing black and white images digitally with pigment inks, or rather a reference to a distinct product line and process?
Then again, I am not a patent attorney and perhaps you are correct.
I was under the impression that Cone only marketed his B&W carbon inks under the Piezography name. Are you saying he calls his color inks the same thing? Could be. I don\u2019t know.
I was not implying or suggesting that the term Piezography does not belong to Cone or that it is generic. How you got "Piezography MIS Carbon Inks\u201d out of what I said, is a puzzle to me.
I was simply saying that in the mind of that gallery person, Piezography is probably a generic term. That does not mean that I think it is.
2014-12-08 by Elliot Puritz
Well, here is the definition of Piezography from Jon's web site. If one desires, there is much more to read. http://www.piezography.com/What_is_Piezograpy_site.html What is Piezography? Piezography is a brand of monochromatic inks and software that produce what is unarguably the absolute <http://www.piezography.com/site/long-dynamic-range.html> highest-standard in black and white printing. It was first introduced as a Trademarked brand in 2000 and has gone through successive improvements and changes over the years. It is a process that is constantly exceeding the capabilities of the printers on which it is implemented. Piezography is developed by Jon Cone in the village of East Topsham, Vermont, USA who first introduced monochromatic inkjet printing at PhotoPlus Expo in NYC in 1998. His monochromatic inkjet systems were initially designed for IRIS Graphics printers in 1993. So, I think that David might well be correct in that Piezography does indeed refer to the name of the inks. However, please note that the definition and claims seem to extend to "software". Elliot
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 6:31 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] switch MIS K Eboni with Piezography Shade 1 ? I am guessing that gallery learned a buzzword and want to use it. Tell them that Piezography is just one company's term for carbon inks and that you use carbon inks too, just not that brand. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com EMAIL: david@... PO Box 93 Fort Davis, TX 79734 (432) 386-5787 For some reason, a gallery where I am willing to exhibit asks for Piezography prints; I actually use MIS MK BO. Is it an easy switch to use Jon Cone's Piezography Shade 1 as a replacement ? Would I need new profiles ?
2014-12-08 by Elliot Puritz
Not to beat the subject to death, but note that Jon developed a new ink set that supplanted PiezographyBW Inks..ConeTech PiezoTone Inks..one might suspect that the general term of Piezography is now the general term for "digital ink jet black and white printing" using dedicated black inks sets in a similar way that "Kleenex" and "Xerox" are used to define a given range of products and/or processes. Again.I am not a patent attorney! 2002 - PiezoToneT inks. PiezographyBW inks were introduced in March, 2000 as a carbon pigment/dye mixture in a strong co-solvent base. Although contemporary at its release, it has been replaced by a new generation of quad black inks offering significantly better technology resulting in greatly increased longevity, color stability, and printer performance. This new ink family is called ConeTech PiezoTone and replaces the now discontinued PiezographyBW inks. PiezoTone inks are a 100% pure pigment ink and are offered in 4 different hue/tone families. Read article about Jon Cone <http://www.piezography.com/media/inside-cones-head.pdf> "Inside Cone's head" (pdf)
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 7:28 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Digital BW] switch MIS K Eboni with Piezography Shade 1 ? Well, here is the definition of Piezography from Jon's web site. If one desires, there is much more to read. http://www.piezography.com/What_is_Piezograpy_site.html What is Piezography? Piezography is a brand of monochromatic inks and software that produce what is unarguably the absolute <http://www.piezography.com/site/long-dynamic-range.html> highest-standard in black and white printing. It was first introduced as a Trademarked brand in 2000 and has gone through successive improvements and changes over the years. It is a process that is constantly exceeding the capabilities of the printers on which it is implemented. Piezography is developed by Jon Cone in the village of East Topsham, Vermont, USA who first introduced monochromatic inkjet printing at PhotoPlus Expo in NYC in 1998. His monochromatic inkjet systems were initially designed for IRIS Graphics printers in 1993. So, I think that David might well be correct in that Piezography does indeed refer to the name of the inks. However, please note that the definition and claims seem to extend to "software". Elliot From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 6:31 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] switch MIS K Eboni with Piezography Shade 1 ? I am guessing that gallery learned a buzzword and want to use it. Tell them that Piezography is just one company's term for carbon inks and that you use carbon inks too, just not that brand. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com EMAIL: david@... PO Box 93 Fort Davis, TX 79734 (432) 386-5787 For some reason, a gallery where I am willing to exhibit asks for Piezography prints; I actually use MIS MK BO. Is it an easy switch to use Jon Cone's Piezography Shade 1 as a replacement ? Would I need new profiles ?
2014-12-08 by bakerstrt@...
to whom it may concern
This is an interesting topic of conversation. For those (like me) who are interested, there are plenty of examples where a brand name becomes generic as has been suggested here. eg hoover (or for Europeans, lux) as a verb meaning to vacuum, Xerox for copy, even Google for search perhaps.
So it is possible that Piezography might mean black and white printing with several tones of black ink.
Apparently there is even a word for it: Genericide.
see also;
http://ndrichardson.com/blog/2012/09/11/brand-genericide-when-brand-names-become-commonplace/
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/08/22/brand-names-generic-words_n_5699474.html
Cheers
Mike V
2014-12-08 by Elliot Puritz
Simply pointing out where some confusion might arise David.not at all a criticism of you of course. Let me stop here and wish you the very best and continued success. Let the gallery suggest whatever inks they desire.:}
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 7:27 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] switch MIS K Eboni with Piezography Shade 1 ? That's an interesting point David. I thought that "Piezography" was a trademark that appropriately belonged to Jon Cone and alluded to all of his distinct inks-not simply carbon. Would one be able to use the admittedly awkward combination of, for example, "Piezography MIS Carbon Inks" or some such misleading statement? Is Piezography a general term that defines the process of printing black and white images digitally with pigment inks, or rather a reference to a distinct product line and process? Then again, I am not a patent attorney and perhaps you are correct. I was under the impression that Cone only marketed his B&W carbon inks under the Piezography name. Are you saying he calls his color inks the same thing? Could be. I don't know. I was not implying or suggesting that the term Piezography does not belong to Cone or that it is generic. How you got "Piezography MIS Carbon Inks" out of what I said, is a puzzle to me. I was simply saying that in the mind of that gallery person, Piezography is probably a generic term. That does not mean that I think it is. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com EMAIL: david@... PO Box 93 Fort Davis, TX 79734 (432) 386-5787
2014-12-08 by richard@...
2014-12-08 by David Kachel
2014-12-08 by Elliot Puritz
Thanks for clearing everything up Richard. Appreciated. Elliot
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 8:23 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: switch MIS K Eboni with Piezography Shade 1 ? Piezo(electric) is the term for a type of material that changes shape when an electrical charge is applied to it, which is how Epson, Roland, Mimaki and other higher end printers spit ink onto the paper. These are different than thermal bubble inkjet printers, like HP,Canon. Piezography is not just Jon's name for using multiple gray inks to break up the tonal scale, but also the shape of the overlapping inks and the way final linearization is done. Using a single "black only" channel of one of his inks does not make a piezography print, it makes something that goes completely against the very idea of Piezography. Using 4, 6, or 7 shades of Cone inks and profiling with QTR does not make it Piezography print either, since the shape of the curves is as much of what makes a piezogrpahy print as the inks used. All those things make them piezoelectric inkjet prints, but so is using the epson ultrachome inks and driver. To answer your other question about MIS and Cone shade 1 inks compatible. The short answer is no, they are not. The MIS inks tend to reach their dmax sooner and then level off, someplace round the 30%-40% mark, and the Cone inks are between 35-50% and then start to reverse fairly quickly after the dmax is reached—in most cases shade 2 at 100% might end up being darker than shade 1 at 100%. The other difference is the shape if the density increase between the two inks is different as well, so your black only curves will now be correct if you switch to the Cone Shade 1. Not knowing the gallery or what your prints are like, it is hard to know what they are trying to get at requesting "piezography" prints—they might just want to make sure you are making pure carbon prints without using color inks. Richard Boutwell
2014-12-08 by richard@...
2014-12-10 by richard@...