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Re: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

Re: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-21 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Imaging theory says to send data to the printer driver in 1/2 or 1/3 
increments of upper resolution dpi.

Ergo, the magic numbers for a 1270/870  are 360, 480, and 720 dpi... (at 
1440 dpi print resolution) or for a 1280 at 1440 dpi print resolution

Theoretically: for a 1280 (at 2880 dpi print resolution) they are:  360, 
480, 720, 960, and 1440 dpi..

However, everyone I have spoken with has seen no visible increase in 
quality (even under magnification of 2880 dpi prints) by going beyond 
720 dpi..

when you start getting up that high, the 4 picoliter size of the 
droplets is the real limiting factor.. with 2 picoliter drops, the 
increased resolution in the original file MIGHT be of value.. but with 4 
pico drops 460, 480, or 720 (the last, only if you have ram to spare 
when working images and you are printing on low dot gain papers) would 
be my recommendations.

The printer driver will resize images anyway. The reason for sending 
images in 1/2 and 1/3 multiples is to avoid problems with artifact 
creation when the driver resizes..


[Keith]
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-21 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Alessandro Pardi wrote:

> Therefore, apart from
> efficiency issues (sending smaller files), it's better to downsample in
> Photoshop, that has a better algorithm.
> Can someone confirm this, or is it yet another


Downsampling in Photoshop is preferred not simply b/c the algorithm is 
better, but if you find an artifact in PhotoSHop it is cheaper to fix 
there than to find it on a print..

For upsampling my choices in descending order.. (best to worst)  are:

Genuine Fractals w/in PhotoShop
PhotoShop
the Printer Driver.

that is, until you hit one of the aforementioned "magic" numbers..  form 
there on, it's just easier to let the driver do the work..


[Keith]
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-21 by Austin Franklin

> Imaging theory says to send data to the printer driver in 1/2 or 1/3
> increments of upper resolution dpi.

Hi Keith,

Where did you get that information from?  I believe this has been a refuted
myth, at least as far as today's Epson printers go.

> Ergo, the magic numbers for a 1270/870  are 360, 480, and 720 dpi... (at
> 1440 dpi print resolution) or for a 1280 at 1440 dpi print resolution

I do not believe there are any magic numbers for printer resolution in many
of today's printers, and certainly not Epsons.  It is entirely dependant on
the printer driver, and what halftone algorithm is being used.

> The printer driver will resize images anyway. The reason for sending
> images in 1/2 and 1/3 multiples is to avoid problems with artifact
> creation when the driver resizes..

Have you personally seen these?  I have an 1160, 3000 and 1270.  I have
tried the magic resolution theory hundreds of times, with both the Epson
driver and the Cone Piezo driver (on the 1160 and 3000), and neither I, or
anyone I've shown prints to, can see a difference in odd resolutions vs
"magic" resolutions.  Also, others that I've suggested perform this test
have come to the same conclusion.

Resizing the image to make the "magic" resolutions degrades the image data.
When you print, as you seem to know, the driver has to run an algorithm on
the data to determine the halftone patterns.  Why process the image data
twice, instead of just once?

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-21 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Austin Franklin wrote:

>
>
> > Imaging theory says to send data to the printer driver in 1/2 or 1/3
> > increments of upper resolution dpi.
>
> Hi Keith,
>
> Where did you get that information from?  I believe this has been a 
> refuted
> myth, at least as far as today's Epson printers go.

Artifacts may be less prevalent with the EPSON drivers in current use, 
but the theory is still valid..

>
> > Ergo, the magic numbers for a 1270/870  are 360, 480, and 720 dpi... (at
> > 1440 dpi print resolution) or for a 1280 at 1440 dpi print resolution
>
> I do not believe there are any magic numbers for printer resolution in 
> many
> of today's printers, and certainly not Epsons.  It is entirely 
> dependant on
> the printer driver, and what halftone algorithm is being used.

True... But one other factor plays into it..  I haven't done a study on 
it yet, but I'm wondering if print overall print times might actually be 
longer when not working with data in those multiples..?  The more 
extended interpolation that is done internally by the driver SHOULD (not 
necessarily WOULD) increase print time from start to finish..  Whether 
that time is negligible or not as a % of overall print time would be 
interesting..

If it were shown to take incrementally longer, and personally, I don't 
have the time right now to run tests..  I would likely opt for doing the 
work in Pshop to shorten the time the background process is running..

I shall accept your assertion that differences may not be apparent in 
downsampling, but in upsampling, you still need to aim for some number 
anyway.  In those instances it still IS unrefuted that something like 
Genuine Fractals will do a better job AND that images below 360 dpi are 
losing detail as image dpi decreases.

[Keith]
 
 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-21 by Austin Franklin

Hi Keith,

> > > Imaging theory says to send data to the printer driver in 1/2 or 1/3
> > > increments of upper resolution dpi.
> >
> > Hi Keith,
> >
> > Where did you get that information from?  I believe this has been a
> > refuted
> > myth, at least as far as today's Epson printers go.
>
> Artifacts may be less prevalent with the EPSON drivers in current use,
> but the theory is still valid..

What theory is what I'm asking.

> > > Ergo, the magic numbers for a 1270/870  are 360, 480, and 720
> dpi... (at
> > > 1440 dpi print resolution) or for a 1280 at 1440 dpi print resolution
> >
> > I do not believe there are any magic numbers for printer resolution in
> > many
> > of today's printers, and certainly not Epsons.  It is entirely
> > dependant on
> > the printer driver, and what halftone algorithm is being used.
>
> True... But one other factor plays into it..  I haven't done a study on
> it yet, but I'm wondering if print overall print times might actually be
> longer when not working with data in those multiples..?

Can't answer that, but it is a good question.  Somehow, I don't think so,
since the printers are so much slower than the computer can process the
data...but that could be computer dependant too!

> The more
> extended interpolation that is done internally by the driver SHOULD (not
> necessarily WOULD) increase print time from start to finish..  Whether
> that time is negligible or not as a % of overall print time would be
> interesting..

I guess that's what I'm saying...if the processing time is faster than the
print time, there will be no increase, except the initial latency for the
first line, which is negligible.

> I shall accept your assertion that differences may not be apparent in
> downsampling, but in upsampling, you still need to aim for some number
> anyway.
> In those instances it still IS unrefuted that something like
> Genuine Fractals will do a better job

Better job than the Epson resize, I absolutely agree with that.

> AND that images below 360 dpi are
> losing detail as image dpi decreases.

I don't understand what you mean by that...please explain.  If I do get what
you are saying, that is totally image size/viewing distance dependant, and
there is no problem printing with very low PPI to the printer...depending on
the viewing distance.

Regards,

Austin

Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-21 by Doug Irving

Austin/Keith:

After reading a George DeWolfe reference to this on inksupply.com, managed
to track down Epson's "official" guide on scanning resolution:

"You should set the MINIMUM scan resolution at 1/3rd of the desired print
resolution. For example, for a print resolution of 720dpi, you will need to
set the scan resolution to 240dpi or higher. If you are going to increase
the size of the printed image then you should scan at a higher dpi
resolution."

(See for yourself, plus their formula for calculating line screen frequency,
at: http://support.epson.com/webadvice/wa0216.html)

This is interesting, as it directly conflicts with what I'd always read in
Pop Photo, Shutterbug, PC Photo, etc. that (and I am paraphrasing) anything
over 300 dpi is "wasted", and basically serves only to slow printing down as
the printer chugs through data that it can't use (at least in the sense that
it's visible to the eye). Would be very interested in seeing an actual
side-by-side comparison that proves either theory wrong. Anyone?

Regards,
Doug Irving
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...> Reply-To:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:59:07
-0500 To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE:
[Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are     applied


Hi Keith,

>>> Imaging theory says to send data to the printer driver in 1/2 or 1/3
>>> increments of upper resolution dpi.
>>> 
>> Hi Keith,
>> 
>> Where did you get that information from?  I believe this has been a refuted
>> myth, at least as far as today's Epson printers go.
>> 
> Artifacts may be less prevalent with the EPSON drivers in current use, but the
> theory is still valid..
> 
What theory is what I'm asking.

>>> Ergo, the magic numbers for a 1270/870  are 360, 480, and 720 dpi... (at
>>> 1440 dpi print resolution) or for a 1280 at 1440 dpi print resolution
>>> 
>> I do not believe there are any magic numbers for printer resolution in many
>> of today's printers, and certainly not Epsons.  It is entirely dependant on
>> the printer driver, and what halftone algorithm is being used.
>> 
> True... But one other factor plays into it..  I haven't done a study on it
> yet, but I'm wondering if print overall print times might actually be longer
> when not working with data in those multiples..?
> 
Can't answer that, but it is a good question.  Somehow, I don't think so,
since the printers are so much slower than the computer can process the
data...but that could be computer dependant too!

[snip]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-21 by Austin Franklin

Hi Doug,

> Austin/Keith:
>
> After reading a George DeWolfe reference to this on inksupply.com, managed
> to track down Epson's "official" guide on scanning resolution:
> <snip>
> Would be very interested in seeing an actual
> side-by-side comparison that proves either theory wrong. Anyone?

The best image out you are going to get is to scan at the optical resolution
of your scanner, and size the print (not interpolating) and let the PPI fall
where it may, providing it's above a certain point.  I've done dozens to
probably near hundreds of comparison tests, and the overwhelming conclusion
is that this gives the best image.  Also, everyone I've suggested this
methodology to, has said the same thing.

The reasoning is pretty obvious.  Decimating the image information means
that you are changing the image data that the halftone algorithm is basing
its decisions on, and that will degrade your output tonality and sharpness.
Now, this isn't true with EVERY image on earth, but as a general rule of
thumb, for me, it has held true.

It is a very easy test you can do for your self.  Scan an image, resize to
your output size in PS NOT allowing decimation to take place, and let the
PPI fall where they may to 240PPI.  Print the image.  Take the same image
and check the little box in re-size to allow decimation, and then change the
PPI to 240.  Print it out.  See for your self ;-)

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-21 by Bob Frost

Austin & Keith,

I have copied two postings from another list on this subject. Since they are
fairly detailed I'll put them in separate postings:-

Posting 1

"I ran some tests soon after buying my 1270 printer, over 18 months ago,
which were similar to those which Bob mentions, except that I also
printed swatches of different tones as well, just in case there was a
difference in the resampling due to the ink density.

Although I did find resampling occurring, I found no evidence of it
changing as a function of ink density, which also indicated that the
dithering was very random.

The resampling pitch I found was 720ppi in both horizontal and vertical
axes - which is quite surprising given that the printer is capable of
1440ppi in one direction and the horizontal lines were more clearly
defined than the vertical lines.

The proof of this was quite simple really.  Proceed as Bob outlined
above with a line pattern of vertical and horizontal lines one pixel
wide, increasing the dpi of the test image at each run (resampling
switched off in Photoshop so that only a size change occurs).

Eventually, distortion will begin to appear due to aliasing.  Initially
this is quite subtle, since only the harmonics of the pixels are being
aliased by the resampling process.   However, eventually, the aliased
component becomes the dominant part of the image as the fundamental
increases beyond half of the resampling rate and higher ppi input simply
results in coarser line patterns.

In my tests, which I still have copies of, this "reflection" occurred at
exactly 720ppi, or a fundamental frequency for the line patterns of
360cycles per inch.  So the print at 750ppi produced identical line
pitches as the print at 690ppi and a print at 1080ppi produced identical
pitches to the print at 360ppi.  Clearly the "quality" of the lines
differed, depending on where the harmonics of the fundamental were
aliased to and what phase they occurred at, but it is the fundamental
which is easiest to see and use to identify the resampling rate.

So the maximum spatial frequency which the printer can reproduce without
aliasing is 360cycles per inch and, by Nyquist's Theorem, the resampling
rate is simply double this maximum spatial frequency - 720ppi.

I suspect that the main effect that Bob is seeing at lower resolution
tests is aliasing of the harmonics of his line patterns.  A square wave,
such as the line pattern, has harmonics at odd multiples (3x, 5x, 7x,
etc.) of the fundamental.  Hence at 180ppi the finest lines are 90lppi,
which have harmonics at 270, 450, 630cy/in.  Clearly, however, the 5th
harmonic exceeds the resolution of the printer and aliasing results -
reflecting exactly onto the 3rd harmonic and reinforcing it.  Whilst
this does not affect the line pitch and size, it does affect the
"quality" and uniformity of the lines.

However it is important to remember that these harmonics are not part of
the actual image, but a characteristic of the low pixel density - the
highest spatial frequency of the image that 180ppi can reproduce is
90cy/in.  The harmonics are a consequence of pixelation and generally
the intention is to minimise pixelation.  So I would argue that the
MINIMUM pixel density to print for photorealism is where the third
harmonic is well beyond the resolution limit of the printer.  For the
x70 series this occurs at 240ppi.  The maximum is clearly at 720ppi,
since the printer will downsample to that pixel density anyway.

Typically I print at 360ppi (where, coincidentally, the first harmonic
aliases back onto the fundamental) but occasionally go up to 480ppi
(where the first harmonic aliases back to 0cy/in) for some images with a
lot of fine detail in them.  Usually however I don't make any effort to
print at an exact ppi rating if it falls between these densities and
rely on the stochastic dither to do its work.
--
Kennedy"


Bob Frost

Re: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-21 by Bob Frost

Austin & Keith,

Posting 2

 "I have not read the article, but it sounds as if you are reading the 
article correctly because that is exactly what the Epson driver does - 
however your concerns are not particularly sound, since this upsampling 
is merely one stage in several which together make up the half-toning 
algorithms which Epson use to convert from the pixels per inch that you 
choose to send it and the dots per inch which it requires to print.

You can find the resampling resolution which Epson use by a simple test, 
printing blocks of single pixel wide lines with single pixel gaps 
between them at different ppi.  As the ppi increases, the lines become 
finer and the blocks become smaller, as you would expect.  As you get to 
higher ppi figures you will need a loupe to see the lines distinctly, 
since the resolution of the printer exceeds that of the naked eye. 
However, as you approach 720ppi you will find that not only do you see 
the original lines on the printed page, but you see faint images of 
broader lines at resolutions which correspond to the difference between 
720ppi and the input resolution you are printing at.  These are alias 
images - false lines caused by the resampling of the input data.  So if 
you print lines at, say 650ppi, then you will not only see lines that 
are on average 325line pairss per inch (you need one pixel width for the 
line and one for the gap, so that the number of line pairs is always 
half the ppi) but also "ghost" lines at 35line pairs per inch, since 
720-650=70ppi, which is the aliased image.

Eventually, at exactly 720ppi, the block will print either completely 
solid colour or completely white and shifting the image by a single 
pixel will change between these two states.  What has happened is that 
the line pattern has aliased to 0 line pairs per inch, so each "ghost" 
line is infinitely wide (clearly limited in size by the input size of 
the test image.

This in itself is a clear indication of resampling to 720ppi or an 
integer multiple thereof, but increasing the ppi of the test image even 
further will result in "ghost" lines which reduce in width.  So that if 
you print your test image at 790ppi you will find the lines look 
identical to the test image printed at 650ppi - the only difference 
being that the test patch itself is smaller.  Once again, the "ghost" 
lines are at 35line pairs per inch with fine detail at, on average, 
325line pairs per inch.

It is the existence of these two "mirror" images centred around 720ppi 
which proves that the Epson driver is resampling to 720ppi.  What is 
also worth noting is that this 720ppi resampling occurs in both axes 
whether the printer is set to print at 720ppi, 1440ppi or 2880ppi - 
720ppi is the MAXIMUM resolution that the printer can reproduce on the 
page.  I haven't checked to see if the resampling resolution is reduced 
when printing at, say, 360dpi - but I suspect it is.

After resampling to 720ppi, the Epson driver then applies a stochastic 
dither to reduce the bit depth of the image to match the tonal 
capability of the particular printer, which is defined in terms of the 
number of ink colours, the dot sizes which is capable of depositing on 
the page and the dot resolution.  A 6 colour, 2880dpi, 6 dot size 
printer is capable of finer tonal reproduction than a 4 colour, 720dpi, 
1 dot size printer for example, and so the 720ppi image requires a 
coarser dither with the latter than the former.  The actual algorithm 
used is quite complex, however it has the property of spreading the 
dither over several pixels of the original image where smooth tone 
variations occur and also printing individual pixels at reduced colour 
accuracy where fine detail occurs in the image.  Generally this yields 
good results on the page, with near photographic tonal range and fine 
detail reproduction, but occasionally (as with some cases of low level 
film grain) results in the contrast of fine detail being exaggerated 
when high resolution input files are used.

I suspect that the author of the page you are reading has some 
alternative algorithm for both the resampling and the dither which 
outperform the standard Epson algorithms in some, perhaps all, 
situations.  It could, for example, be possible to resample at the 
native resolution of the printer itself - eg. 1440ppi or 2880ppi - and 
obtain some marginal improvements over the standard Epson algorithm, but 
I would not like to guess at how significant the difference would be. 
Certainly the difference would be detectable in specific test images, 
such as that discussed above, but for general photographic images I am 
not entirely convinced the difference would be worthwhile.

I don't think you should be overly concerned about the resampling issue. 
As above, using highly synthetic test images, it is possible to 
determine that resampling has occurred and what the frequency of that 
resampling is.  However, for general images of less than 360ppi this is 
usually imperceptible.

Why should you be worried about resampling on a printer, whether by 
pixel replication or some interpolation algorithm, when the resampled 
pixels are beyond the resolution of your eye?  This is not the same 
thing as resampling on a scanner - where the image can be printed out at 
any size and, hence, the effect of resampling can be clearly visible. 
Effectively, your eye is resampling every image you see by the structure 
of the rods and cones on your retina - whilst more random than the 
orthogonal matrix used in the Epson printer the resampling in your eye 
is significantly coarser, which is why the images from these printers 
look acceptable at all!       :-)

In short:
Do Epson printer drivers resample to 720ppi? : Yes.
Is the resampling perceptible? : In around 99.99% of cases, no.
How much should you be concerned? : Around 0.01%.        ;-)
-- 
Kennedy"

Bob Frost

Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-21 by Charles Whitaker

on 3/21/2002 2:36 PM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> It is a very easy test you can do for your self.  Scan an image, resize to
> your output size in PS NOT allowing decimation to take place, and let the
> PPI fall where they may to 240PPI.

Another newcomer question: What do you mean by "decimation"? Thanks.

Charles Whitaker

RE: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-21 by Austin Franklin

Hi Bob,

> The proof of this was quite simple really.  Proceed as Bob outlined
> above with a line pattern of vertical and horizontal lines one pixel
> wide, increasing the dpi of the test image at each run (resampling
> switched off in Photoshop so that only a size change occurs).

I am not exactly clear on what it is this is trying to prove...would you
mind elaborating?

Since I know Kennedy is the source of your post, and I know him somewhat
well, I know everything he says is correct...but I'm not sure I understand
what you are trying to relate it to here.  The use of monochromatic lines
for testing is typically of little to no use for image data, which is
neither monochromatic, or lines.

Regards,

Austin

RE: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-21 by Austin Franklin

> Another newcomer question: What do you mean by "decimation"? Thanks.
>
> Charles Whitaker

Hi Charles,

No problem.  Decimation is the opposite of interpolation.  Interpolation is
adding data between original data points.  Decimation is taking data points
away.  If you have an image of 640 x 480 and want to resize it to 320 x 240,
you'd basically remove every other pixel.  The algorithm can get a lot more
sophisticated than that, but that's the basic premise.  Decimation
technically means remove every tenth, but in signal processing, it can be
reducing by any number.

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-22 by Michael Kravit

Austin is 100% right. Run these tests and you will see the results clearly.

One other thing that I have found is regarding grain. I find that by
scanning at the lowest possible optical resolution of the scanner will
reduce prominence of grain. That is on my Howtek D4000 if I scan at 4000 dpi
at 1:1 the negative grain is very clearly evident.

If I choose a lesser opticacal scanner resolution (Howtek provides a chart
of the native optical resolutions) the PMT does not scan the grain and my
images exhibit less grain in the final print. For example a 6x6 negative
scanned at 364dpi (A Howtek D4000 Native Optocal Resolution) at a final
print size of 20"x20".

Mike


Austin Franklin Wrote:
> The best image out you are going to get is to scan at the optical
resolution
> of your scanner, and size the print (not interpolating) and let the PPI
fall
> where it may, providing it's above a certain point.  I've done dozens to
> probably near hundreds of comparison tests, and the overwhelming
conclusion
> is that this gives the best image.  Also, everyone I've suggested this
> methodology to, has said the same thing.
>
> The reasoning is pretty obvious.  Decimating the image information means
> that you are changing the image data that the halftone algorithm is basing
> its decisions on, and that will degrade your output tonality and
sharpness.
> Now, this isn't true with EVERY image on earth, but as a general rule of
> thumb, for me, it has held true.
>
> It is a very easy test you can do for your self.  Scan an image, resize to
> your output size in PS NOT allowing decimation to take place, and let the
> PPI fall where they may to 240PPI.  Print the image.  Take the same image
> and check the little box in re-size to allow decimation, and then change
the
> PPI to 240.  Print it out.  See for your self ;-)

Re: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-22 by Bill Morse

Mike, I'm not sure I'm following you.  Are you scanning the negative @364
DPI or is the 20x20 print @ 364 DPI?

If 20x20, then the actual scanner resolution is 3081 DPI - (20x364)/2.36 -
not exactly optimal if what you are trying for is scanner optical
resolution- although, come to think of it, maybe that's why you're seeing
less grain? [g]

There must be something really simple I'm not getting...

Bill



on 3/21/02 7:59 PM, Michael Kravit wrote:

Austin is 100% right. Run these tests and you will see the results clearly.

One other thing that I have found is regarding grain. I find that by
scanning at the lowest possible optical resolution of the scanner will
reduce prominence of grain. That is on my Howtek D4000 if I scan at 4000 dpi
at 1:1 the negative grain is very clearly evident.

If I choose a lesser opticacal scanner resolution (Howtek provides a chart
of the native optical resolutions) the PMT does not scan the grain and my
images exhibit less grain in the final print. For example a 6x6 negative
scanned at 364dpi (A Howtek D4000 Native Optocal Resolution) at a final
print size of 20"x20".

Mike


Austin Franklin Wrote:
> The best image out you are going to get is to scan at the optical
resolution
> of your scanner, and size the print (not interpolating) and let the PPI
fall
> where it may, providing it's above a certain point.  I've done dozens to
> probably near hundreds of comparison tests, and the overwhelming
conclusion
> is that this gives the best image.  Also, everyone I've suggested this
> methodology to, has said the same thing.
>
> The reasoning is pretty obvious.  Decimating the image information means
> that you are changing the image data that the halftone algorithm is basing
> its decisions on, and that will degrade your output tonality and
sharpness.
> Now, this isn't true with EVERY image on earth, but as a general rule of
> thumb, for me, it has held true.
>
> It is a very easy test you can do for your self.  Scan an image, resize to
> your output size in PS NOT allowing decimation to take place, and let the
> PPI fall where they may to 240PPI.  Print the image.  Take the same image
> and check the little box in re-size to allow decimation, and then change
the
> PPI to 240.  Print it out.  See for your self ;-)



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RE: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combingcure)

2002-03-22 by Austin Franklin

> Mike, I'm not sure I'm following you.  Are you scanning the negative @364
> DPI or is the 20x20 print @ 364 DPI?

Bill,

He's talking about a different beast then you are probably used to.  I'm not
saying he's right or wrong, as I don't know his scanner, but PMT scanners
(Photo Multiplier Tube), AKA drum scanners, aren't subject to the resolution
issues CCD scanners are.  They only use a single element sensor, and an
aperture.  The aperture is typically selected such that the width of the
resolution is covered.  It's the drum that moves in an XY pattern,
illuminated from within for film, to scan the media.

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combingcure)

2002-03-22 by Bill Morse

Austin,

I may be fuzzy in my understanding of how PMT scanners work.  I am using a
Howtek 4500 and have also scanned with Polaroid and Scitex flatbed and film
scanners.  The one thing I've noticed about all these scanners and their
software is that they are very imprecise about resolution.  In most cases,
as I mentioned, the terminology comes from the pre-press world, where %
enlargement based on 300 DPI was the norm.  It's often very difficult to
determine the actual scanning resolution.

As I understand it, with Howtek (and other PMT?) scanners, "native
resolution" is determined by the selected orifice size (is that the right
term?).  Where I guess I'm unclear is how intermediate resolutions are
achieved.  I had thought that for, say, 3250 DPI, the scanner would actually
scan at 4000 DPI and then interpolate down to 3250 DPI.  Are you saying it's
done differently?

Bill

on 3/21/02 9:50 PM, Austin Franklin wrote:

> Mike, I'm not sure I'm following you.  Are you scanning the negative @364
> DPI or is the 20x20 print @ 364 DPI?

Bill,

He's talking about a different beast then you are probably used to.  I'm not
saying he's right or wrong, as I don't know his scanner, but PMT scanners
(Photo Multiplier Tube), AKA drum scanners, aren't subject to the resolution
issues CCD scanners are.  They only use a single element sensor, and an
aperture.  The aperture is typically selected such that the width of the
resolution is covered.  It's the drum that moves in an XY pattern,
illuminated from within for film, to scan the media.

Regards,

Austin


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Re: [Digital BW] Combing cure -- change size after the curves are applied

2002-03-22 by Bob Frost

Austin & Keith,

I have copied two postings from another list on this subject. Since they are
fairly detailed I'll put them in separate postings:-

Posting 1

"I ran some tests soon after buying my 1270 printer, over 18 months ago,
which were similar to those which Bob mentions, except that I also
printed swatches of different tones as well, just in case there was a
difference in the resampling due to the ink density.

Although I did find resampling occurring, I found no evidence of it
changing as a function of ink density, which also indicated that the
dithering was very random.

The resampling pitch I found was 720ppi in both horizontal and vertical
axes - which is quite surprising given that the printer is capable of
1440ppi in one direction and the horizontal lines were more clearly
defined than the vertical lines.

The proof of this was quite simple really.  Proceed as Bob outlined
above with a line pattern of vertical and horizontal lines one pixel
wide, increasing the dpi of the test image at each run (resampling
switched off in Photoshop so that only a size change occurs).

Eventually, distortion will begin to appear due to aliasing.  Initially
this is quite subtle, since only the harmonics of the pixels are being
aliased by the resampling process.   However, eventually, the aliased
component becomes the dominant part of the image as the fundamental
increases beyond half of the resampling rate and higher ppi input simply
results in coarser line patterns.

In my tests, which I still have copies of, this "reflection" occurred at
exactly 720ppi, or a fundamental frequency for the line patterns of
360cycles per inch.  So the print at 750ppi produced identical line
pitches as the print at 690ppi and a print at 1080ppi produced identical
pitches to the print at 360ppi.  Clearly the "quality" of the lines
differed, depending on where the harmonics of the fundamental were
aliased to and what phase they occurred at, but it is the fundamental
which is easiest to see and use to identify the resampling rate.

So the maximum spatial frequency which the printer can reproduce without
aliasing is 360cycles per inch and, by Nyquist's Theorem, the resampling
rate is simply double this maximum spatial frequency - 720ppi.

I suspect that the main effect that Bob is seeing at lower resolution
tests is aliasing of the harmonics of his line patterns.  A square wave,
such as the line pattern, has harmonics at odd multiples (3x, 5x, 7x,
etc.) of the fundamental.  Hence at 180ppi the finest lines are 90lppi,
which have harmonics at 270, 450, 630cy/in.  Clearly, however, the 5th
harmonic exceeds the resolution of the printer and aliasing results -
reflecting exactly onto the 3rd harmonic and reinforcing it.  Whilst
this does not affect the line pitch and size, it does affect the
"quality" and uniformity of the lines.

However it is important to remember that these harmonics are not part of
the actual image, but a characteristic of the low pixel density - the
highest spatial frequency of the image that 180ppi can reproduce is
90cy/in.  The harmonics are a consequence of pixelation and generally
the intention is to minimise pixelation.  So I would argue that the
MINIMUM pixel density to print for photorealism is where the third
harmonic is well beyond the resolution limit of the printer.  For the
x70 series this occurs at 240ppi.  The maximum is clearly at 720ppi,
since the printer will downsample to that pixel density anyway.

Typically I print at 360ppi (where, coincidentally, the first harmonic
aliases back onto the fundamental) but occasionally go up to 480ppi
(where the first harmonic aliases back to 0cy/in) for some images with a
lot of fine detail in them.  Usually however I don't make any effort to
print at an exact ppi rating if it falls between these densities and
rely on the stochastic dither to do its work.
--
Kennedy"

Bob Frost


----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
>
> Where did you get that information from?  I believe this has been a
refuted
> myth, at least as far as today's Epson printers go.
>
> > Ergo, the magic numbers for a 1270/870  are 360, 480, and 720 dpi... (at
> > 1440 dpi print resolution) or for a 1280 at 1440 dpi print resolution
>
> I do not believe there are any magic numbers for printer resolution in
many
> of today's printers, and certainly not Epsons.  It is entirely dependant
on
> the printer driver, and what halftone algorithm is being used.
>
> > The printer driver will resize images anyway. The reason for sending
> > images in 1/2 and 1/3 multiples is to avoid problems with artifact
> > creation when the driver resizes..
>
> Have you personally seen these?  I have an 1160, 3000 and 1270.  I have
> tried the magic resolution theory hundreds of times, with both the Epson
> driver and the Cone Piezo driver (on the 1160 and 3000), and neither I, or
> anyone I've shown prints to, can see a difference in odd resolutions vs
> "magic" resolutions.  Also, others that I've suggested perform this test
> have come to the same conclusion.
>
> Resizing the image to make the "magic" resolutions degrades the image
data.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> When you print, as you seem to know, the driver has to run an algorithm on
> the data to determine the halftone patterns.  Why process the image data
> twice, instead of just once?

RE: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS:combingcure)

2002-03-22 by Austin Franklin

Hi Bill,

> In most cases,
> as I mentioned, the terminology comes from the pre-press world,

You are exactly right, and my Leafscan is the same way.  I have to "fool" it
into getting optical resolution by giving it any dimension I want, then
entering 99999999 in the resolution box, and it then sets it self to the
highest resolution it can.

> As I understand it, with Howtek (and other PMT?) scanners, "native
> resolution" is determined by the selected orifice size (is that the right
> term?).

I don't believe it's the aperture that determines the resolution, but the
motor increments.

> Where I guess I'm unclear is how intermediate resolutions are
> achieved.  I had thought that for, say, 3250 DPI, the scanner
> would actually
> scan at 4000 DPI and then interpolate down to 3250 DPI.  Are you
> saying it's
> done differently?

With CCD scanners, you are limited in native resolution by the CCD, and the
magnification.  It's pretty simple...the CCD has, say, 6000 sensors, with a
fixed "pitch" (distance between sensors).  That means, if you have a sensor
that has 6000 sensors, and is 2" wide, with a 1:1 magnification, you'll get
3000 samples per inch.

With PMT scanners, it uses a single sensing element, and is not limited by
an sensor "pitch" as CCD sensor scanners are.  The scanner rotates the drum
in the Y axis, and moves the head assembly in the X axis.  What ever the
motors ability to move is, is what the resolution of the scanner can be.

Apparently with the Howtek, you set the Q or I factor, which means the
scanner will pick the "native" motor movement increments that are closest to
your requested size/resolution...so in that case, no interpolation will be
done.  Also, interpolation is for up sizing, not downsizing.

Regards,

Austin

[Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-27 by bluzdoctor

Hello:

coudl you clarify what you mean by "decimating the image" in PS? 
Where is the "little box" in resizing that 
allows/disallows "decimating."

Thanks,

joel


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin" 
> 
> The reasoning is pretty obvious.  Decimating the image information 
means
> that you are changing the image data that the halftone algorithm is 
basing
> its decisions on, and that will degrade your output tonality and 
sharpness.
> Now, this isn't true with EVERY image on earth, but as a general 
rule of
> thumb, for me, it has held true.
> 
> It is a very easy test you can do for your self.  Scan an image, 
resize to
> your output size in PS NOT allowing decimation to take place, and 
let the
> PPI fall where they may to 240PPI.  Print the image.  Take the same 
image
> and check the little box in re-size to allow decimation, and then 
change the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> PPI to 240.  Print it out.  See for your self ;-)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin

[Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-27 by bluzdoctor

Hello:

coudl you clarify what you mean by "decimating the image" in PS? 
Where is the "little box" in resizing that 
allows/disallows "decimating."

Thanks,

joel


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin" 
> 
> The reasoning is pretty obvious.  Decimating the image information 
means
> that you are changing the image data that the halftone algorithm is 
basing
> its decisions on, and that will degrade your output tonality and 
sharpness.
> Now, this isn't true with EVERY image on earth, but as a general 
rule of
> thumb, for me, it has held true.
> 
> It is a very easy test you can do for your self.  Scan an image, 
resize to
> your output size in PS NOT allowing decimation to take place, and 
let the
> PPI fall where they may to 240PPI.  Print the image.  Take the same 
image
> and check the little box in re-size to allow decimation, and then 
change the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> PPI to 240.  Print it out.  See for your self ;-)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin

RE: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-28 by Austin Franklin

Hi Joel,

Decimation is a process by which you decrease the amount of data.
Technically, it originally meant 1 out of 10 was removed, but in signal
processing, it simply means N removed.  If you have an image that is 320
pixels across, and you want to downsize it to 160 pixels across, every other
pixel would be removed.  It can be done by simple removal, or by doing it
algorithmically...in a simple sense, taking two pixels and averaging them
together and replacing the two values with the one averaged value.

Regards,

Austin
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello:
>
> coudl you clarify what you mean by "decimating the image" in PS?
> Where is the "little box" in resizing that
> allows/disallows "decimating."
>
> Thanks,
>
> joel
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin"
> >
> > The reasoning is pretty obvious.  Decimating the image information
> means
> > that you are changing the image data that the halftone algorithm is
> basing
> > its decisions on, and that will degrade your output tonality and
> sharpness.
> > Now, this isn't true with EVERY image on earth, but as a general
> rule of
> > thumb, for me, it has held true.
> >
> > It is a very easy test you can do for your self.  Scan an image,
> resize to
> > your output size in PS NOT allowing decimation to take place, and
> let the
> > PPI fall where they may to 240PPI.  Print the image.  Take the same
> image
> > and check the little box in re-size to allow decimation, and then
> change the
> > PPI to 240.  Print it out.  See for your self ;-)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Austin

[Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-30 by bluzdoctor

Hey Austin:

Thanks for the explanation and root of the term. Under which PS menu is 
the check box you use in allowing decimation or not?

And what is the difference between selecting this box when resizing an 
image and not?


Thanks again,

Joel


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin" <
darkroom@i...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hi Joel,
> 
> Decimation is a process by which you decrease the amount of data.
> Technically, it originally meant 1 out of 10 was removed, but in signal
> processing, it simply means N removed.  If you have an image that is 320
> pixels across, and you want to downsize it to 160 pixels across, every other
> pixel would be removed.  It can be done by simple removal, or by doing it
> algorithmically...in a simple sense, taking two pixels and averaging them
> together and replacing the two values with the one averaged value.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin
> 
> 
> > Hello:
> >
> > coudl you clarify what you mean by "decimating the image" in PS?
> > Where is the "little box" in resizing that
> > allows/disallows "decimating."
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > joel
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin"
> > >

RE: [Digital BW] Re: scan vs. printer resolution (WAS: combing cure)

2002-03-30 by Austin Franklin

Hi Joel,

> Thanks for the explanation and root of the term.

You're welcome!

> Under which PS menu is
> the check box you use in allowing decimation or not?

Under image/resize, it's the second from the bottom check box I believe...
BTW, depending on whether you are up-sizing or down-sizing the image will
determine if it will interpolate (up-size) or decimate (down-size) the
image.

> And what is the difference between selecting this box when resizing an
> image and not?

If you select the box, you get interpolated or decimated results...in other
words, PS completely re-calculates ALL your data values!  If you don't check
it, PS does NOT touch the data at all, it just provides new dimensional
information in the header.  Remember, a file that has N pixels across
doesn't have any resolution per se...since resolution requires a
dimension...  So, 640 pixels over a 10" span, has the exact number of pixels
as 640 pixels over a 5" span, but the resolutions are different.

Did that make sense to you?

Austin

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