Digital BW, The Print

Steadman,

I fully agree that Piezo technology is quitre good, in fact it has
progressed to the point of being very good. However, as a member director of
a Photography Center and Museum I must tell you that I have yet to see a
Piezo print that can match the quality of a fine silver or platinum print.
They are getting quite close, but there are some pretty good silver printers
out there. I would venture to say that it will still be a while for the
paper coatings and inks to be able to replicate the "glow" and lunminescence
of a Michael Kenna or John Sexton print.

Just my thoughts my firnd.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 10:50 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


> Hello Della,
>
> I found your observations of the shadow detail using Piezo versus silver
> prints very interesting.
>
> I think what happens is a natural "bias" to the medium which one has
> "learned" and lived with for a long time.  The esthetics of a silver
printer
> are probably indelibly (to use an ink term) marked by a need to have "deep
> blacks" and not so much a revel in the revealing shadows.
>
> I agree that the Piezo shadow detail can be spectacular...drawing one into
a
> print in a new way.
>
> Thanks for posting your views...I enjoyed reading them.
>
> Steadman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "della ellingson" <dellaellingson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <dilcher@...>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 8:45 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs MIS question
>
>
> > > dilcher [mailto:dilcher@...] wrote:
> > >
> > >> ... having trouble  deciding between Piezo and MIS
> > methods.
> > >> ...Piezography is supposed to have a driver which
> > makes a substantial
> > >> difference in printing.  Is this so?
> > >
> > > You will get a variety of opinions on this, I'm
> > sure.  Mine is that the
> > > Piezo driver does, in fact, make smoother prints on
> > older quad printers, but
> > > not on newer hextone printers.  Nonetheless, while I
> > have the Piezo driver
> > > and the older quad printers, I still prefer the
> > Epson driver.  The
> > > differences in smoothness are not enough to be
> > relevant to my decision.
> >
> >
> > I have used both the Piezography driver and the
> > various MIS workflows. For me, the greatest difference
> > is the superior tonal separation of Piezography in the
> > shadows regions. Not yet have any of the alternative
> > methods been able to equal the separation of tone in
> > the shadows regions.
> >
> > However this may not be of importance according to
> > your level of quality expectation. I have found
> > several Piezographers who prefer to have the shadows
> > regions appear all black. My preference is to go
> > beyond that of the silver print in tonal fidelity of
> > shadows. Piezography does this and it is a quality
> > that I prefer. Also - there is a better highlights
> > definition.
> >
> > Like I have mentioned some photographers do not have
> > the same corresponding judgment of quality criteria. I
> > argue that Piezography is able to produce a level
> > above the silver print. They argue that getting close
> > to a silver print is all that is necessary of inkjet.
> > I am certain that my printing is of a higher concept
> > than theirs. For me it matters.
> >
> > -della
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards\ufffd
> > http://movies.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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>
>
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>
>

In response to this antiquated argument, I have yet to see a 
silver print with the tonal range of a platinum print.  And I have 
seen lots of beautiful silver prints and lots of beautiful platinum 
prints.  The goal for me is not to make a digital print that imitates 
these.  In fact, an inkjet print looks more like a photogravure.  

I have yet to see an apple that looks like an orange.  These are 
not valid arguments.  What is important to digital printers is 
making the most beautiful print we can with our chosen medium.  
This is also most important to platinum and silver printmakers.

On a tangential note, I have just changed from MIS VM inks to 
MIS FS.  Shadow detail is increased dramatically and through a 
lupe the FS Piezo has a tighter dot pattern.  What's the down 
side?  Many more nozzle checks and cleaning cycles.  The Piezo 
system is pushing my Epson 1160 to its max.  I long for the 
carefree life of Paul's curves and Epson's dithered driver.

Frank

http://www.culturalvisions.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> Steadman,
> 
> I fully agree that Piezo technology is quitre good, in fact it has
> progressed to the point of being very good. However, as a 
member director of
> a Photography Center and Museum I must tell you that I have 
yet to see a
> Piezo print that can match the quality of a fine silver or platinum 
print.
> They are getting quite close, but there are some pretty good 
silver printers
> out there. I would venture to say that it will still be a while for the
> paper coatings and inks to be able to replicate the "glow" and 
lunminescence
> of a Michael Kenna or John Sexton print.
> 
> Just my thoughts my firnd.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 10:50 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows
> 
> 
> > Hello Della,
> >
> > I found your observations of the shadow detail using Piezo 
versus silver
> > prints very interesting.
> >
> > I think what happens is a natural "bias" to the medium which 
one has
> > "learned" and lived with for a long time.  The esthetics of a 
silver
> printer
> > are probably indelibly (to use an ink term) marked by a need 
to have "deep
> > blacks" and not so much a revel in the revealing shadows.
> >
> > I agree that the Piezo shadow detail can be 
spectacular...drawing one into
> a
> > print in a new way.
> >
> > Thanks for posting your views...I enjoyed reading them.
> >
> > Steadman
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "della ellingson" <dellaellingson@y...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Cc: <dilcher@y...>
> > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 8:45 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs MIS question
> >
> >
> > > > dilcher [mailto:dilcher@y...] wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> ... having trouble  deciding between Piezo and MIS
> > > methods.
> > > >> ...Piezography is supposed to have a driver which
> > > makes a substantial
> > > >> difference in printing.  Is this so?
> > > >
> > > > You will get a variety of opinions on this, I'm
> > > sure.  Mine is that the
> > > > Piezo driver does, in fact, make smoother prints on
> > > older quad printers, but
> > > > not on newer hextone printers.  Nonetheless, while I
> > > have the Piezo driver
> > > > and the older quad printers, I still prefer the
> > > Epson driver.  The
> > > > differences in smoothness are not enough to be
> > > relevant to my decision.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have used both the Piezography driver and the
> > > various MIS workflows. For me, the greatest difference
> > > is the superior tonal separation of Piezography in the
> > > shadows regions. Not yet have any of the alternative
> > > methods been able to equal the separation of tone in
> > > the shadows regions.
> > >
> > > However this may not be of importance according to
> > > your level of quality expectation. I have found
> > > several Piezographers who prefer to have the shadows
> > > regions appear all black. My preference is to go
> > > beyond that of the silver print in tonal fidelity of
> > > shadows. Piezography does this and it is a quality
> > > that I prefer. Also - there is a better highlights
> > > definition.
> > >
> > > Like I have mentioned some photographers do not have
> > > the same corresponding judgment of quality criteria. I
> > > argue that Piezography is able to produce a level
> > > above the silver print. They argue that getting close
> > > to a silver print is all that is necessary of inkjet.
> > > I am certain that my printing is of a higher concept
> > > than theirs. For me it matters.
> > >
> > > -della
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
__________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
> > > http://movies.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> > >
> > > 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to
> keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal 
attacks or
> "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
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or "flames."
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and the various
> resources on the homepage.
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> >
> >
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> >
> >

Frank,

As a platinum printer and a digital printer I think you are strolling down
the path with blinders. Yes each medium has its own characteristivs, but the
fact is you can not yet obtain a print that glows like a contact platinum
print and has the luminositry of contact silver print using inks and water
color papers.

This NOT meant to be an argument of digital vs. silver. I love inkjet
printing and digital imaging. What I am saying is that the state of the art
has not yet reached the level of what we are striving for. Not many of us
want to duplicate a silver print. Some of us do in fact want to duplicate
platinum as we feel that platinum is the ultimate medium as far as depth and
three dimensionality is concerened.

Just to let you know I print and sell and exhibit many Piezo prints, I have
also been a platinum printer for many years. These are in fact valid issues
and certainly not antiquated. We are all striving to obtail the perfect
print!

Antiquated or not a fine print is judged by certain criteria, that will not
change.

Mike

In a message dated 3/23/2002 8:34:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
michael.kravit@... writes:


> I would venture to say that it will still be a while for the
> paper coatings and inks to be able to replicate the "glow" and 
> lunminescence
> of a Michael Kenna or John Sexton print.
> 

I would venture that it will still be a while before 99% of silver printers 
can replicate the glow and luminescence of a Kenna or Sexton.
George J Kunze


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike, 

Well...from one "firnd" to another....

My post was not a criticism of silver or platinum or crayons.  My  post simply pointed out that seeing the unique qualities of Piezo may take some adjustment because of biases that already exist with many people.  The same bias is seen when speaking of painting on canvas....and one person uses acrylics and another has only used oils.  They both can produce beautiful art....but getting the "old time" oil painter to use (or see the beauty of an acrylic painting) is hard to do.....they often don't get past the use of a different "paint" and criticize it instead of looking at the art (image) itself.   

Seeing the inherent qualities of any medium takes a little "growth" on the part of the viewer.  Unfortunately, some folks expect every new medium to have all the benefits of the old without any weaknesses....or even more benefits...without any weaknesses (or simple differences).  Of course it also sometimes difficult to teach an old dog new tricks too. 

That was/is my point.  (wINK) 

I personally find masterfully made tempera, watercolor, and pastel paintings much more beautiful than any silver, platinum or palladium print (though I like some of those too).  I also admire the ability of someone like Gil Dellinger (master pastellist) who can take a piece of "chalk" (actually pure pigments) and make an image by hand that will "glow" with the light of a Pacific sunset.  So I have my biases (preferences) too.

With Respect,
Your firnd, 
Steadman

Mike wrote: (SNIP)

"Just my thoughts my firnd.

Mike"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 10:50 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


> Hello Della,
>
> I found your observations of the shadow detail using Piezo versus silver
> prints very interesting.
>
> I think what happens is a natural "bias" to the medium which one has
> "learned" and lived with for a long time.  The esthetics of a silver
printer
> are probably indelibly (to use an ink term) marked by a need to have "deep
> blacks" and not so much a revel in the revealing shadows.
>
> I agree that the Piezo shadow detail can be spectacular...drawing one into
a
> print in a new way.
>
> Thanks for posting your views...I enjoyed reading them.
>
> Steadman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "della ellingson" <dellaellingson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <dilcher@...>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 8:45 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs MIS question
>
>
> > > dilcher [mailto:dilcher@...] wrote:
> > >
> > >> ... having trouble  deciding between Piezo and MIS
> > methods.
> > >> ...Piezography is supposed to have a driver which
> > makes a substantial
> > >> difference in printing.  Is this so?
> > >
> > > You will get a variety of opinions on this, I'm
> > sure.  Mine is that the
> > > Piezo driver does, in fact, make smoother prints on
> > older quad printers, but
> > > not on newer hextone printers.  Nonetheless, while I
> > have the Piezo driver
> > > and the older quad printers, I still prefer the
> > Epson driver.  The
> > > differences in smoothness are not enough to be
> > relevant to my decision.
> >
> >
> > I have used both the Piezography driver and the
> > various MIS workflows. For me, the greatest difference
> > is the superior tonal separation of Piezography in the
> > shadows regions. Not yet have any of the alternative
> > methods been able to equal the separation of tone in
> > the shadows regions.
> >
> > However this may not be of importance according to
> > your level of quality expectation. I have found
> > several Piezographers who prefer to have the shadows
> > regions appear all black. My preference is to go
> > beyond that of the silver print in tonal fidelity of
> > shadows. Piezography does this and it is a quality
> > that I prefer. Also - there is a better highlights
> > definition.
> >
> > Like I have mentioned some photographers do not have
> > the same corresponding judgment of quality criteria. I
> > argue that Piezography is able to produce a level
> > above the silver print. They argue that getting close
> > to a silver print is all that is necessary of inkjet.
> > I am certain that my printing is of a higher concept
> > than theirs. For me it matters.
> >
> > -della
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
> > http://movies.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
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>
>
>
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>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Such a good point George. 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: toomagenta@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 9:29 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


  In a message dated 3/23/2002 8:34:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
  michael.kravit@... writes:


  > I would venture to say that it will still be a while for the
  > paper coatings and inks to be able to replicate the "glow" and 
  > lunminescence
  > of a Michael Kenna or John Sexton print.
  > 

  I would venture that it will still be a while before 99% of silver printers 
  can replicate the glow and luminescence of a Kenna or Sexton.
  George J Kunze


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>On a tangential note, I have just changed from MIS VM inks to
MIS FS.  Shadow detail is increased dramatically and through a
lupe the FS Piezo has a tighter dot pattern.  What's the down
side?  Many more nozzle checks and cleaning cycles.  The Piezo
system is pushing my Epson 1160 to its max.  I long for the
carefree life of Paul's curves and Epson's dithered driver.

Frank >>

Why more cleaning cycles? I wouldn't think the FS inks are substantially
different in composition from the VM inks to cause head problems, and I
don't see how the driver can cause these types of problems. I'm curious
since I am considering acquiring another 1280 to use with either MIS VM or
MIS FS. While I don't like the idea of paying $335 for the Piezo driver, I
am attracted by the simplicity.

Keith

I'm more curious to know whether Mike, and others who have tried 
both, agree with Della on this point in particular:

> > >I have used both the Piezography driver and the
> > > various MIS workflows. For me, the greatest difference
> > > is the superior tonal separation of Piezography in the
> > > shadows regions. Not yet have any of the alternative
> > > methods been able to equal the separation of tone in
> > > the shadows regions.

The only reason I didn't ask Steadman after he posted in reaction to 
Della is that I don't think he's tried the various MIS workflows 
Della thought inferior in this regard.

This separation (or not) of tones is a matter of fact - is 
measurable? - and not opinion isn't it? I'm curious to know the 
details because I assume there could be a difference which is 
measurable but not appreciable.

Sam McCandless           samcc@...

>Steadman,
>
>I fully agree that Piezo technology is quitre good, in fact it has
>progressed to the point of being very good. However, as a member director of
>a Photography Center and Museum I must tell you that I have yet to see a
>Piezo print that can match the quality of a fine silver or platinum print.
>They are getting quite close, but there are some pretty good silver printers
>out there. I would venture to say that it will still be a while for the
>paper coatings and inks to be able to replicate the "glow" and lunminescence
>of a Michael Kenna or John Sexton print.
>
>Just my thoughts my firnd.
>
>Mike

> I would venture that it will still be a while before 99% of silver
printers
> can replicate the glow and luminescence of a Kenna or Sexton.
> George J Kunze

George,

Just takes dedication and practice, and maybe a good teacher. ;-)

Mike

Steadman,

That reminds me, speaking of painting. I had a water color artist in my
office last week. She wanted to use my 10000 to print out reproductions of
one of her water color paintings. You see, the painting was hanging in her
living room for 10 years. When she recently took it down to have it reframed
she noticed that the sky in the area covered by the liner was actually
cerillion blue (Not sure how it is spelled). The sky that was exposed to
light has little or no pigment color left.

I found this to be interesting as I have only briefly thought about archival
issues with water color paints.

Your posts are alway so informative and of course it is always nice to hear
from a friend. ;-)

Mike

Sam,

Della is not correct.

As I mentioned, there are other alternatives available to PiezographyBW to
obtain a full rich long tonal range
and excellent shadow detail. I have used Piezography, MIS-VM, and MIS FS w.
the ImagePrint 4 RIP and from first hand experience the VM and FS inksets
with either the Epson Driver or a good RIP can out perform Piezography in
this area.

They key with the VM system is creating good separation curves. I have seen
some of Pauls VM prints, they are outstanding!

Mike



----- Original Message -----

From: "Sam A. McCandless" <samcc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


> I'm more curious to know whether Mike, and others who have tried
> both, agree with Della on this point in particular:
>
> > > >I have used both the Piezography driver and the
> > > > various MIS workflows. For me, the greatest difference
> > > > is the superior tonal separation of Piezography in the
> > > > shadows regions. Not yet have any of the alternative
> > > > methods been able to equal the separation of tone in
> > > > the shadows regions.

Mike,  Paul just posted an excellent response to your remarks on a 
different (but similar) thread.  Basically he says (and I agree) that 
once the image is framed under glass and the tactile, physical texture 
of the process is neutralized, one is hard pressed to determine the 
print pedigree.  Paul goes on to say that the reason a great print 
glows is because it is done by a master artist.  

I also print platinum, silver and digital processes.  Sometimes they 
glow.  More often they don't.  I don't attribute the success or 
failure of the image to the medium.  Luminosity lies totally in the 
artists hand and vision.

Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> Frank,
> 
> As a platinum printer and a digital printer I think you are 
strolling down
> the path with blinders. Yes each medium has its own characteristivs, 
but the
> fact is you can not yet obtain a print that glows like a contact 
platinum
> print and has the luminositry of contact silver print using inks and 
water
> color papers.
> 
> This NOT meant to be an argument of digital vs. silver. I love 
inkjet
> printing and digital imaging. What I am saying is that the state of 
the art
> has not yet reached the level of what we are striving for. Not many 
of us
> want to duplicate a silver print. Some of us do in fact want to 
duplicate
> platinum as we feel that platinum is the ultimate medium as far as 
depth and
> three dimensionality is concerened.
> 
> Just to let you know I print and sell and exhibit many Piezo prints, 
I have
> also been a platinum printer for many years. These are in fact valid 
issues
> and certainly not antiquated. We are all striving to obtail the 
perfect
> print!
> 
> Antiquated or not a fine print is judged by certain criteria, that 
will n

Keith,  
In relation to quad printing systems (I don't know about hex 
printers), The Piezo software alters the dithering characteristics of 
the Epson printer.  Others on this list can explain it more 
technically.  From my understanding, Epson's driver is very forgiving 
with a fine dithering that mixes up the dot pattern enough to smooth 
the tonal surface of the print.  The Cone software turns off the fine 
dithering to produce a higher dpi (or equivalent) with less tolerance 
for any lack of alignment in the system.  Hence, when viewed through a 
lupe, the well done Piezo print is very impressive compared with any 
quad Epson driver print.  I don't know about hex systems as I am only 
using an 1160.
Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Keith Hollister" 
<khollist@b...> wrote:
> 
> >>On a tangential note, I have just changed from MIS VM inks to
> MIS FS.  Shadow detail is increased dramatically and through a
> lupe the FS Piezo has a tighter dot pattern.  What's the down
> side?  Many more nozzle checks and cleaning cycles.  The Piezo
> system is pushing my Epson 1160 to its max.  I long for the
> carefree life of Paul's curves and Epson's dithered driver.
> 
> Frank >>
> 
> Why more cleaning cycles? I wouldn't think the FS inks are 
substantially
> different in composition from the VM inks to cause head problems, 
and I
> don't see how the driver can cause these types of problems. I'm 
curious
> since I am considering acquiring another 1280 to use with either MIS 
VM or
> MIS FS. While I don't like the idea of paying $335 for the Piezo 
driver, I
> am attracted by the simpli

At 10:05 AM 3/23/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Mike, 
>
>Well...from one "firnd" to another....
>
>My post was not a criticism of silver or platinum or crayons.  My  post
simply pointed out that seeing the unique qualities of Piezo may take some
adjustment because of biases that already exist with many people.  The same
bias is seen when speaking of painting on canvas....and one person uses
acrylics and another has only used oils.  They both can produce beautiful
art....but getting the "old time" oil painter to use (or see the beauty of
an acrylic painting) is hard to do.....they often don't get past the use of
a different "paint" and criticize it instead of looking at the art (image)
itself.   
>
>Seeing the inherent qualities of any medium takes a little "growth" on the
part of the viewer.  Unfortunately, some folks expect every new medium to
have all the benefits of the old without any weaknesses....or even more
benefits...without any weaknesses (or simple differences).  Of course it
also sometimes difficult to teach an old dog new tricks too. 
>
>That was/is my point.  (wINK) 
>
>I personally find masterfully made tempera, watercolor, and pastel
paintings much more beautiful than any silver, platinum or palladium print
(though I like some of those too).  I also admire the ability of someone
like Gil Dellinger (master pastellist) who can take a piece of "chalk"
(actually pure pigments) and make an image by hand that will "glow" with the
light of a Pacific sunset.  So I have my biases (preferences) too.
>
>With Respect,
>Your firnd, 
>Steadman
>
>Mike wrote: (SNIP)
>
>"Just my thoughts my firnd.
>
>Mike"
>

Guys,

Each medium has its own craft and material qualities and it isn't much use
to cross-compare them.  It is more useful to compare how each artist masters
the craft. 

One only has to think about the print qualities of HCB, Frank, and Wm Klein
to understand the limits to over-valuing or error of mis-placed criticism of
craft. While, lacking high crafting, Kenna and Sexton prints would look like
crap. 

The craft of photography has traditionally been to acquire the greatest
amount of information on the film and translate that to the print.
Allowances are made for the film format, the print medium, and the
circumstances of the image. Given all that, shortcomings in craft for any
given picture is important only when it gets in the way of the intention of
the artist, pictorial style, presentation mode, and probably several other
factors.  

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

> As I mentioned, there are other alternatives available to PiezographyBW to
> obtain a full rich long tonal range
> and excellent shadow detail. I have used Piezography, MIS-VM, and
> MIS FS w.
> the ImagePrint 4 RIP and from first hand experience the VM and FS inksets
> with either the Epson Driver or a good RIP can out perform Piezography in
> this area.

Hi Michael,

What exactly do you mean by "out perform"?

Regards,

Austin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "culturalvisions" 
<frank@c...> wrote:
> On a tangential note, I have just changed from MIS VM inks to 
> MIS FS.  Shadow detail is increased dramatically and through a 
> lupe the FS Piezo has a tighter dot pattern.  What's the down 
> side?  Many more nozzle checks and cleaning cycles.  The Piezo 
> system is pushing my Epson 1160 to its max.  I long for the 
> carefree life of Paul's curves and Epson's dithered driver.
> 
> Frank
> 

Frank-

Do you mean that you get piezo-clogs by using the piezo software with 
MIS inks? I've been using FS for about 5 months now and have never 
had a clog that a single cleaning didn't fix (and darn few of those).

Are you using carts of CIS? I think part of the reason everything is 
working so well for me now is that once I quit piezo inks, I 
installed a CIS...who knows, piezo might have worked on CIS, too.

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

Sam, 

I am always one to "appreciate" rather than "measure,"  so it is just as well you did not ask for my opinion...(grin).  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sam A. McCandless 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


  I'm more curious to know whether Mike, and others who have tried 
  both, agree with Della on this point in particular:

  > > >I have used both the Piezography driver and the
  > > > various MIS workflows. For me, the greatest difference
  > > > is the superior tonal separation of Piezography in the
  > > > shadows regions. Not yet have any of the alternative
  > > > methods been able to equal the separation of tone in
  > > > the shadows regions.

  The only reason I didn't ask Steadman after he posted in reaction to 
  Della is that I don't think he's tried the various MIS workflows 
  Della thought inferior in this regard.

  This separation (or not) of tones is a matter of fact - is 
  measurable? - and not opinion isn't it? I'm curious to know the 
  details because I assume there could be a difference which is 
  measurable but not appreciable.

  Sam McCandless           samcc@...


  >Steadman,
  >
  >I fully agree that Piezo technology is quitre good, in fact it has
  >progressed to the point of being very good. However, as a member director of
  >a Photography Center and Museum I must tell you that I have yet to see a
  >Piezo print that can match the quality of a fine silver or platinum print.
  >They are getting quite close, but there are some pretty good silver printers
  >out there. I would venture to say that it will still be a while for the
  >paper coatings and inks to be able to replicate the "glow" and lunminescence
  >of a Michael Kenna or John Sexton print.
  >
  >Just my thoughts my firnd.
  >
  >Mike


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Mike, My Old Friend, 

Yeah......blue is usually one of those pigments that fades fast in a watercolor painting.  If she kept the painting displayed in her living room (probably under a small light) for 10 years I would expect there to be significant fading....and if she lives in Sunny Florida....with all those windows and white furniture and tiled floors and white on white decor...there must be lots of ambient or reflected light in the room (of course I am only surmising on the decor).  

"Cerulean" blue is pretty. 

Not all pigments are lightfast....nor are all paints...nor are all inks.  

Steadman

.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 1:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


  Steadman,

  That reminds me, speaking of painting. I had a water color artist in my
  office last week. She wanted to use my 10000 to print out reproductions of
  one of her water color paintings. You see, the painting was hanging in her
  living room for 10 years. When she recently took it down to have it reframed
  she noticed that the sky in the area covered by the liner was actually
  cerillion blue (Not sure how it is spelled). The sky that was exposed to
  light has little or no pigment color left.

  I found this to be interesting as I have only briefly thought about archival
  issues with water color paints.

  Your posts are alway so informative and of course it is always nice to hear
  from a friend. ;-)

  Mike


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Austin,

I another words, Piezography i designed to compress the shadows somewhat to
give the impression of a better black. With a good curve or a good RIP one
can open up the shadows and at the still maintain a good black density
without the artificial compression.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


>
> > As I mentioned, there are other alternatives available to PiezographyBW
to
> > obtain a full rich long tonal range
> > and excellent shadow detail. I have used Piezography, MIS-VM, and
> > MIS FS w.
> > the ImagePrint 4 RIP and from first hand experience the VM and FS
inksets
> > with either the Epson Driver or a good RIP can out perform Piezography
in
> > this area.
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> What exactly do you mean by "out perform"?
>
> Regards,
>
> Austin
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi,

I don't understand how compressing blacks will make them "better"???  The
darkest black will still be the darkest black, even if there is more of
it...

I don't have that problem with Piezo, and my shadows are very very open.
Now, I don't disagree that the density of the darkest black in Piezo isn't
as dense as "other" methods, for what ever reason, but as has been pointed
out...it really doesn't matter if the overall print has the dynamic range
(separation of tones).  I like the comment that Piezo prints are more like
photo gravures.  I like photo gravures ;-)

Regards,

Austin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Kravit [mailto:michael.kravit@...]
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:59 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows
>
>
> Austin,
>
> I another words, Piezography i designed to compress the shadows
> somewhat to
> give the impression of a better black. With a good curve or a good RIP one
> can open up the shadows and at the still maintain a good black density
> without the artificial compression.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:40 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows
>
>
> >
> > > As I mentioned, there are other alternatives available to
> PiezographyBW
> to
> > > obtain a full rich long tonal range
> > > and excellent shadow detail. I have used Piezography, MIS-VM, and
> > > MIS FS w.
> > > the ImagePrint 4 RIP and from first hand experience the VM and FS
> inksets
> > > with either the Epson Driver or a good RIP can out perform Piezography
> in
> > > this area.
> >
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > What exactly do you mean by "out perform"?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Austin

Austin wrote:
> I don't understand how compressing blacks will make them "better"???  The
> darkest black will still be the darkest black, even if there is more of
> it...

Me neither, I prefer to have a nice linear distribution of tone.

Austin, here is my final observation in all this and I think that the bottom
line is that if people are happy with the Piezography output then by all
means use it.

If one was to compare the printed 21 step tablet that IJM supplies with
their system to a calibrated Stouffer 21 Step Sensitivity Guide I thick my
point will become immediately evident. The 21 Step Stouffer is a quality
control scale that helps the user to determine and standardize the proper
exposure and processing of photo materials. Obviously it is also used in
printing as a check to determine that the full tonal range is profiling
correctly.

The densities of each of the 21 Step Senitivity Guide each represent
approximately 1/2 - 2/3 stop.  The guide is extremely linear and obiously it
would be difficult to fully linearize a inkset and may not be entirely
necessary. If you were to measure and graph the Piezo or MIS FS  inks with
their software you would find that the highlights are expanded and the
shadows are compressed a bit. The effect of this in densimetric terms is an
increase in contrast. This is not necessarily a bad thing as it is well
established that an increase in contrast gives the appearance of of denser
blacks.

In an ideal world, my point is that I want software that produces a linear
distribution of tones. Obviously I do not want a linear distribution within
my print as it would be completely flat and lifeless. Howvere, I want the
tonal range of the 21 step table to be linear so that when I manipulate my
image on the screen and determine the density range along with lightness and
contrast, the printer prints my image exactly as I intended.

What the Piezo driver is doing is increasing contrast to the benefit of the
image and in 99% of the cases this is acceptable and appreciated by the end
user. But, for a zone system large format photgrapher such as I am, I prefer
to have my materials as linear as possible and let my previsualization of
the scene be translated to the final output without any help.

I do agree that most people appreciate the extra help.

Mike

Tom,  I am not getting the  nasty clogs with FS that some of the 
Piezo ink horror stories tell.  But, as you say, I have to do a head 
cleaning daily or more often if I am changing papers.  With VM I 
was cleaning about once a week if that.  I attribute this added 
appearance of banding to the Piezo dithering algorithm 
compared to Epson's more forgiving fine dithering.  Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "culturalvisions" 
> <frank@c...> wrote:
> > On a tangential note, I have just changed from MIS VM inks to 
> > MIS FS.  Shadow detail is increased dramatically and 
through a 
> > lupe the FS Piezo has a tighter dot pattern.  What's the down 
> > side?  Many more nozzle checks and cleaning cycles.  The 
Piezo 
> > system is pushing my Epson 1160 to its max.  I long for the 
> > carefree life of Paul's curves and Epson's dithered driver.
> > 
> > Frank
> > 
> 
> Frank-
> 
> Do you mean that you get piezo-clogs by using the piezo 
software with 
> MIS inks? I've been using FS for about 5 months now and have 
never 
> had a clog that a single cleaning didn't fix (and darn few of 
those).
> 
> Are you using carts of CIS? I think part of the reason everything 
is 
> working so well for me now is that once I quit piezo inks, I 
> installed a CIS...who knows, piezo might have worked on CIS, 
too.

> 
> Tom O'Connell
> 
> TomOC@y...
> www.thomasoconnell.com

Frank-

I'm only questioning this because there have been so few complaints 
of clogs with FS and I, personally, have really had none.

I wonder if it is the paper? If you are using lots of textured paper, 
some of which flake and shed, could your printer just need a good 
cleaning?

I don't know enough to get too technical here, but I can't see how 
the dither pattern could be causing a problem. I guess one other test 
for you would be to temporarily switch to the John Wolf FS curves 
(which produce beautiful prints, too) and see if it goes away with 
when you switch back to the Epson driver/dither pattern? 

Just a thought...

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "culturalvisions" 
<frank@c...> wrote:
> Tom,  I am not getting the  nasty clogs with FS that some of the 
> Piezo ink horror stories tell.  But, as you say, I have to do a 
head 

> cleaning daily or more often if I am changing papers.  With VM I 
> was cleaning about once a week if that.  I attribute this added 
> appearance of banding to the Piezo dithering algorithm 
> compared to Epson's more forgiving fine dithering.  Frank
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "culturalvisions" 
> > <frank@c...> wrote:
> > > On a tangential note, I have just changed from MIS VM inks to 
> > > MIS FS.  Shadow detail is increased dramatically and 
> through a 
> > > lupe the FS Piezo has a tighter dot pattern.  What's the down 
> > > side?  Many more nozzle checks and cleaning cycles.  The 
> Piezo 
> > > system is pushing my Epson 1160 to its max.  I long for the 
> > > carefree life of Paul's curves and Epson's dithered driver.
> > > 
> > > Frank
> > > 
> > 
> > Frank-
> > 
> > Do you mean that you get piezo-clogs by using the piezo 
> software with 
> > MIS inks? I've been using FS for about 5 months now and have 
> never 
> > had a clog that a single cleaning didn't fix (and darn few of 
> those).
> > 
> > Are you using carts of CIS? I think part of the reason everything 
> is 
> > working so well for me now is that once I quit piezo inks, I 
> > installed a CIS...who knows, piezo might have worked on CIS, 
> too.
> > 
> > Tom O'Connell
> > 
> > TomOC@y...
> > www.thomasoconnell.com

Whadayaknow....I can actually agree with Austin on something!  (grin)

Nicely put Austin....and I like photogravures too. 

Steadman

Austin wrote (little snip):

I don't have that problem with Piezo, and my shadows are very very open.
Now, I don't disagree that the density of the darkest black in Piezo isn't
as dense as "other" methods, for what ever reason, but as has been pointed
out...it really doesn't matter if the overall print has the dynamic range
(separation of tones).  I like the comment that Piezo prints are more like
photo gravures.  I like photo gravures ;-)

Regards,

Austin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Kravit [mailto:michael.kravit@...]
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:59 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows
>
>
> Austin,
>
> I another words, Piezography i designed to compress the shadows
> somewhat to
> give the impression of a better black. With a good curve or a good RIP one
> can open up the shadows and at the still maintain a good black density
> without the artificial compression.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:40 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows
>
>
> >
> > > As I mentioned, there are other alternatives available to
> PiezographyBW
> to
> > > obtain a full rich long tonal range
> > > and excellent shadow detail. I have used Piezography, MIS-VM, and
> > > MIS FS w.
> > > the ImagePrint 4 RIP and from first hand experience the VM and FS
> inksets
> > > with either the Epson Driver or a good RIP can out perform Piezography
> in
> > > this area.
> >
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > What exactly do you mean by "out perform"?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Austin



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            ADVERTISEMENT
           
     
     


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doesn't it really boil down to the scan? Early piezo users complained 
bitterly that the blacks were not deep enough! So to compensate many users 
were compressing there data to increase the perception of black. I would have 
to agreee with Austin, If the scan has open shadows then piezo will print 
them open without compression! I could very well be that Mike K. and his 
image print rip can add black density without any compression. 100%k is 100%K 
and All I no is that, if the file has 100%k tones than I get it on the print 
with my piezo drivers! If a make a print that looks a little weak, sure 
enough I go back and find that my blacks are only measuring 97%
Steven Meyers 3000,7000

In a message dated 03/24/2002 11:31:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
steadmanuhlich@... writes:


> Austin wrote (little snip):
> 
> I don't have that problem with Piezo, and my shadows are very very open.
> Now, I don't disagree that the density of the darkest black in Piezo isn't
> as dense as "other" methods, for what ever reason, but as has been pointed
> out...it really doesn't matter if the overall print has the dynamic range
> (separation of tones).  I like the comment that Piezo prints are more like
> photo gravures.  I like photo gravures ;-)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike, where do you get a Stouffer step Guide?
t

> Austin wrote:
>> I don't understand how compressing blacks will make them "better"???  The
>> darkest black will still be the darkest black, even if there is more of
>> it...
> 
> Me neither, I prefer to have a nice linear distribution of tone.
> 
> Austin, here is my final observation in all this and I think that the bottom
> line is that if people are happy with the Piezography output then by all
> means use it.
> 
> If one was to compare the printed 21 step tablet that IJM supplies with
> their system to a calibrated Stouffer 21 Step Sensitivity Guide I thick my
> point will become immediately evident. The 21 Step Stouffer is a quality
> control scale that helps the user to determine and standardize the proper
> exposure and processing of photo materials. Obviously it is also used in
> printing as a check to determine that the full tonal range is profiling
> correctly.
> 
> The densities of each of the 21 Step Senitivity Guide each represent
> approximately 1/2 - 2/3 stop.  The guide is extremely linear and obiously it
> would be difficult to fully linearize a inkset and may not be entirely
> necessary. If you were to measure and graph the Piezo or MIS FS  inks with
> their software you would find that the highlights are expanded and the
> shadows are compressed a bit. The effect of this in densimetric terms is an
> increase in contrast. This is not necessarily a bad thing as it is well
> established that an increase in contrast gives the appearance of of denser
> blacks.
> 
> In an ideal world, my point is that I want software that produces a linear
> distribution of tones. Obviously I do not want a linear distribution within
> my print as it would be completely flat and lifeless. Howvere, I want the
> tonal range of the 21 step table to be linear so that when I manipulate my
> image on the screen and determine the density range along with lightness and
> contrast, the printer prints my image exactly as I intended.
> 
> What the Piezo driver is doing is increasing contrast to the benefit of the
> image and in 99% of the cases this is acceptable and appreciated by the end
> user. But, for a zone system large format photgrapher such as I am, I prefer
> to have my materials as linear as possible and let my previsualization of
> the scene be translated to the final output without any help.
> 
> I do agree that most people appreciate the extra help.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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Try www.stuffer.net

That should do it.

Mike


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "ternahan" <ternahan@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


> 
> 
> Mike, where do you get a Stouffer step Guide?

Jeez is my typing bad.... the links is www.stouffer.net

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows


> Try www.stuffer.net
>
> That should do it.
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ternahan" <ternahan@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 7:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Della On Shadows
>
>
> >
> >
> > Mike, where do you get a Stouffer step Guide?
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Tom,

As far as clogging with FS goes, the problem is diminishing.  
When my MIS VM CFS lost vacuum, the printer sat for over a 
month while MIS lost my order (actually FedEx lost it) and I 
installed the FS continuous flow system.  For the first couple of 
weeks, I was continually checking and cleaning.  Now it has 
evened out and requires less maintainance.

I don't know why someone wanted to change the name of this 
thread.  I love the title.  It reminds me of some film noir name.

Also, off thread, I love the looks of that march exchange list you 
started.  The two images that are posted are beautiful.   I'll post 
soon.

Frank


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> 
wrote:
> Frank-
> 
> I'm only questioning this because there have been so few 
complaints 
> of clogs with FS and I, personally, have really had none.
> 
> I wonder if it is the paper? If you are using lots of textured 
paper, 
> some of which flake and shed, could your printer just need a 
good 
> cleaning?
> 
> I don't know enough to get too technical here, but I can't see 
how 
> the dither pattern could be causing a problem. I guess one 
other test 
> for you would be to temporarily switch to the John Wolf FS 
curves 
> (which produce beautiful prints, too) and see if it goes away 
with 
> when you switch back to the Epson driver/dither pattern? 
> 
> Just a thought...
> 
> Tom O'Connell
> 
> TomOC@y...
> www.thomasoconnell.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "culturalvisions" 
> <frank@c...> wrote:
> > Tom,  I am not getting the  nasty clogs with FS that some of 
the 
> > Piezo ink horror stories tell.  But, as you say, I have to do a 
> head 
> > cleaning daily or more often if I am changing papers.  With 
VM I 
> > was cleaning about once a week if that.  I attribute this added 
> > appearance of banding to the Piezo dithering algorithm 
> > compared to Epson's more forgiving fine dithering.  Frank
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" 
<tomoc@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "culturalvisions" 
> > > <frank@c...> wrote:
> > > > On a tangential note, I have just changed from MIS VM 
inks to 
> > > > MIS FS.  Shadow detail is increased dramatically and 
> > through a 
> > > > lupe the FS Piezo has a tighter dot pattern.  What's the 
down 
> > > > side?  Many more nozzle checks and cleaning cycles.  
The 
> > Piezo 
> > > > system is pushing my Epson 1160 to its max.  I long for 
the 
> > > > carefree life of Paul's curves and Epson's dithered driver.
> > > > 
> > > > Frank
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Frank-
> > > 
> > > Do you mean that you get piezo-clogs by using the piezo 
> > software with 
> > > MIS inks? I've been using FS for about 5 months now and 
have 
> > never 
> > > had a clog that a single cleaning didn't fix (and darn few of 
> > those).
> > > 
> > > Are you using carts of CIS? I think part of the reason 
everything 
> > is 
> > > working so well for me now is that once I quit piezo inks, I 
> > > installed a CIS...who knows, piezo might have worked on 
CIS, 

> > too.
> > > 
> > > Tom O'Connell
> > > 
> > > TomOC@y...
> > > www.thomasoconnell.com

At 04:30 PM 3/26/2002 -0000, you wrote:
>Tom,
>
>As far as clogging with FS goes, the problem is diminishing.  
>When my MIS VM CFS lost vacuum, the printer sat for over a 
>month while MIS lost my order (actually FedEx lost it) and I 
>installed the FS continuous flow system.  For the first couple of 
>weeks, I was continually checking and cleaning.  Now it has 
>evened out and requires less maintainance.
>
>I don't know why someone wanted to change the name of this 
>thread.  I love the title.  It reminds me of some film noir name.
>
>Also, off thread, I love the looks of that march exchange list you 
>started.  The two images that are posted are beautiful.   I'll post 
>soon.
>
>Frank
>

Frank,

HA,HA,HA,  It could be the sequel to Smila's Sense of Snow" 

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

Alan,  It seems this thread started to get a little nasty so people 
are letting it die out.  It seems appropriate for a good film noir to 
go nasty and reveal a powerful "femme fatale"  too.  Thank you 
Della for stirring up this nest of egos.  

I will say that Mike has the best blacks of any I've seen in pixels.  
A man with that kind of ink has to be reckoned with.

And one side bar to this dying thread.  Alan,  Are you in the 
panoramic print exchange with Shilesh?  I misplaced my info 
about it, but imagine it is time to start printing.  I'll be doubly 
inspired if I knew you were involved.

As far as Smilla's Sense of Snow goes, this response is just 
Frank's Feelings of Flow.
 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Alan Zinn <AZinn@n...> 
wrote:
> At 04:30 PM 3/26/2002 -0000, you wrote:
> >Tom,
> >
> >As far as clogging with FS goes, the problem is diminishing.  
> >When my MIS VM CFS lost vacuum, the printer sat for over a 
> >month while MIS lost my order (actually FedEx lost it) and I 
> >installed the FS continuous flow system.  For the first couple 
of 
> >weeks, I was continually checking and cleaning.  Now it has 
> >evened out and requires less maintainance.
> >
> >I don't know why someone wanted to change the name of this 
> >thread.  I love the title.  It reminds me of some film noir name.
> >
> >Also, off thread, I love the looks of that march exchange list 
you 
> >started.  The two images that are posted are beautiful.   I'll 
post 

> >soon.
> >
> >Frank
> >
> 
> Frank,
> 
> HA,HA,HA,  It could be the sequel to Smila's Sense of Snow" 
> 
> AZ
> Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.
> 
> http://lookaroundcam.com/
>          or
> keyword.com lookaround

> I will say that Mike has the best blacks of any I've seen in pixels.
> A man with that kind of ink has to be reckoned with.

Here I am Tom, let's get going! ;-)

Hey, I am all too willing to share my techniques and procedure and secrets
(well I guess they are not secrets as I share them). But some individuals
believe that some of us "men" dominate this list and let our egos get in the
way. That we are on some sort of crusade and have a hidden agenda.

That is so far from the truth I just can't believe it.

I often send sample prints to folks that don't or can't get good blacks.
Last week Gordon Brown of Kodak fame told me that I have some of the nicest
inkjet prints he has ever seen. Now from a man that teaches workshops,
writes books, and is brilliant, that is a compliment.

Let's start the reconing my friend.

Mike

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer