Digital BW, The Print

Not noticeable enough to bother with, really. The paper turns just
slightly cream colored under long exposure to direct sunlight. I've
never seen any fading under normal lighting conditions.

Jerry


tzinzunzan2000 wrote:

> 
> I agree. It would be great to have a comprehensive list of papers
> that use OB's. What I don't understand is 1) why OB's are used if
> they cause an otherwise good (but perhaps less white) paper to
> noticeably yellow over time (of course, the exception might be those
> cheaper papers that are used for proofing) and 2) if OB's are a
> problem, then why do many printers knowingly use papers that contain
> OB's. I've heard, for example, that some people on this list use EAM
> for prints that they sell. Is yellowing a problem with EAM or is it
> in truth not noticeable enough to warrant a change of paper.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto"
> <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> > Good work Robert. It was about time somebody did this test!!
> >
> >
> >
> > Antonis
> >
> > <now I'll go get depressed since Orwell and PRag are my two
> favorites.... >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...>
> > wrote:
> > > After the latest debate about whether Photo Rag has OB's or
> not...I
> > > purchased a black light (with a SB-4W bulb).
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Six weeks in CA sun through glass results in a large change in EAM.  This is
easily measurable.  But then this isn't North Dakota.  In my opinion EAM
should not be used for anything other than proofing...I don't even use it
for that anymore.  It is not acid free, not 100% rag and has OB's.  It
certainly should never have been called archival...but Epson learned that
the hard way.  I suppose it would be ok for a dark store temporary portfolio
though...I just don't prefer it's surface...I like something with a little
more texture to hid dither.

Robert

On 4/9/02 11:31 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Not noticeable enough to bother with, really. The paper turns just
> slightly cream colored under long exposure to direct sunlight. I've
> never seen any fading under normal lighting conditions.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> tzinzunzan2000 wrote:
>> 
>> I agree. It would be great to have a comprehensive list of papers
>> that use OB's. What I don't understand is 1) why OB's are used if
>> they cause an otherwise good (but perhaps less white) paper to
>> noticeably yellow over time (of course, the exception might be those
>> cheaper papers that are used for proofing) and 2) if OB's are a
>> problem, then why do many printers knowingly use papers that contain
>> OB's. I've heard, for example, that some people on this list use EAM
>> for prints that they sell. Is yellowing a problem with EAM or is it
>> in truth not noticeable enough to warrant a change of paper.
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto"
>> <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
>>> Good work Robert. It was about time somebody did this test!!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Antonis
>>> 
>>> <now I'll go get depressed since Orwell and PRag are my two
>> favorites.... >
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
>> <rmorrison@p...>
>>> wrote:
>>>> After the latest debate about whether Photo Rag has OB's or
>> not...I
>>>> purchased a black light (with a SB-4W bulb).
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

What paper do you use that has/is:

1. No optical brightners.
2. 100 Percent Rag
3. pH. Neutral
4. Pure white
5. At least as thick as and preferably thicker than EAM Paper.
6. Reasonably Priced. (I print LOTS of photos.)
7. Archival
8. Never fades
9. Has as deep or deeper blacks as EAM?

What paper comes even close to these requirements?

Jerry

Hahnemuhle William Turner
As close as it gets

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Optical Brighteners in Inkjet Papers


> Robert,
>
> What paper do you use that has/is:
>
> 1. No optical brightners.
> 2. 100 Percent Rag
> 3. pH. Neutral
> 4. Pure white
> 5. At least as thick as and preferably thicker than EAM Paper.
> 6. Reasonably Priced. (I print LOTS of photos.)
> 7. Archival
> 8. Never fades
> 9. Has as deep or deeper blacks as EAM?
>
> What paper comes even close to these requirements?
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Well, no coated archival paper is as cheap as EAM.

The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, Eclipse Satine Soft
White and William Turner.  They are all heavier than EAM, although the
Eclipse and Museo are much heavier.  None of these papers are as white as
EAM...in fact to my eye they are all about the same.

What the best paper is depends on what you are printing with.  I don't like
the surface of William Turner--though it gives the best blacks with PiezoBW
or MIS inks with the piezo driver.  Personally, I use Museo with PiezoBW
inks and Piezo Driver.  While this ink and paper combination only has a 1.55
dmax, it is over 2.0 when coated with my coating.  The coated Museo prints
look much better than the coated William Turner.  I'm planning to start
using MIS inks with Imageprint soon...so I will probably start to experiment
with Eclipse in that work flow.

For color work I'm using MIS Perpetual inks and once again I use either
Museo or Eclipse.  The Eclipse has both a smooth and more textured
side...coated on both sides...so that is a nice option.  Both of these
papers give better results with the MIS Perpetual and Indelible inks than
the Hahnemuhle papers (e.g., William Turner).  A quad black made with the
MIS Double Density Black ink would be fantastic on either Museo or
Eclipse...I prefer the look of this black on these papers to anything I've
ever seen on Hahnemuhle.

Oh...and...never, never...say never...its a really long time!

Robert

On 4/9/02 1:50 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> What paper do you use that has/is:
> 
> 1. No optical brightners.
> 2. 100 Percent Rag
> 3. pH. Neutral
> 4. Pure white
> 5. At least as thick as and preferably thicker than EAM Paper.
> 6. Reasonably Priced. (I print LOTS of photos.)
> 7. Archival
> 8. Never fades
> 9. Has as deep or deeper blacks as EAM?
> 
> What paper comes even close to these requirements?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert, have you tested either of the Epson Fine Art papers (made be Crane)
for the brighteners?

Thanks

Bill



on 4/9/02 8:05 PM, Robert G. Morrison wrote:

Well, no coated archival paper is as cheap as EAM.

The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, Eclipse Satine Soft
White and William Turner.  They are all heavier than EAM, although the
Eclipse and Museo are much heavier.  None of these papers are as white as
EAM...in fact to my eye they are all about the same.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert, thanks for this informative post. I'm trying to select a paper
for an edition of b&w fine art prints, it's on point for me right now.

I'm using a CMYK workflow and my own custom ink set built from
Generations pigment inks. I use their enhanced black in the black
position, and dilutions of their standard (no dye) black in other
positions, tinted with MY or CM pigments for warm or cold grays. With my
ink set, I get Dmax = 1.75 with Wm. Turner or Hahn. Photo Rag. I haven't
tried Eclipse but maybe I should.

However, I get Dmax > 2.5 with RC lustre papers (Lyson Professional
Photo Satin or Generations ProPhoto Lustre, which seem the same to me).
The ink takes a day to dry fully -- but I get shadow detail I've been
unable to match with any matte sheet. The stuff feels like plastic, and
the surface is fragile, but once it's matted and framed behind glass
this might not be an issue. 

Still, I prefer the feel of an inkjet-coated fine art paper, so I'd love
to find a way to use one of those and still get the knock-your-socks-off
tonal range I'm getting with RC lustre. Two questions:

1. I love Museo (especially the 24 x 36 heavy cut sheets) but find large
areas of smooth mid-gray (say, sky) can show tonal variations that seem
related to paper texture. Have you seen this? If so, do you know a cure?

2. I've avoided coating so far, but after reading your post, maybe I
need to try it. What is your coating? If you've already posted this
info, could you tell me where to find it, or email me off-list? 

thanks,
Richard Wolfson
richard at rwolfson.com

> From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...] 
> 
> The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, 
> Eclipse Satine Soft White and William Turner.  They are all 
> heavier than EAM, although the Eclipse and Museo are much 
> heavier.  None of these papers are as white as EAM...in fact 
> to my eye they are all about the same.
> 
> What the best paper is depends on what you are printing with. 
>  I don't like the surface of William Turner--though it gives 
> the best blacks with PiezoBW or MIS inks with the piezo 
> driver.  Personally, I use Museo with PiezoBW inks and Piezo 
> Driver.  While this ink and paper combination only has a 1.55 
> dmax, it is over 2.0 when coated with my coating.  The coated 
> Museo prints look much better than the coated William Turner. 
>  I'm planning to start using MIS inks with Imageprint 
> soon...so I will probably start to experiment with Eclipse in 
> that work flow.
> 
> For color work I'm using MIS Perpetual inks and once again I 
> use either Museo or Eclipse.  The Eclipse has both a smooth 
> and more textured side...coated on both sides...so that is a 
> nice option.  Both of these papers give better results with 
> the MIS Perpetual and Indelible inks than the Hahnemuhle 
> papers (e.g., William Turner).  A quad black made with the 
> MIS Double Density Black ink would be fantastic on either 
> Museo or Eclipse...I prefer the look of this black on these 
> papers to anything I've ever seen on Hahnemuhle.
>

No, I don't have samples.  If you would like to send some I will gladly
test.  

Robert Morrison
4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

It's my understanding that the coating is nearly (but not) identical to
Museo and that the paper stock is the same.  I've heard this about the
smooth...I don't I don't know about the textured.  Thus I would expect that
they don't have brighteners.

Robert

On 4/10/02 5:05 AM, "Bill Morse" <willym@...> wrote:

> Robert, have you tested either of the Epson Fine Art papers (made be Crane)
> for the brighteners?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> on 4/9/02 8:05 PM, Robert G. Morrison wrote:
> 
> Well, no coated archival paper is as cheap as EAM.
> 
> The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, Eclipse Satine Soft
> White and William Turner.  They are all heavier than EAM, although the
> Eclipse and Museo are much heavier.  None of these papers are as white as
> EAM...in fact to my eye they are all about the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> No, I don't have samples.  If you would like to send some I will 
gladly
> test.  
> 
> Robert Morrison
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> It's my understanding that the coating is nearly (but not) 
identical to
> Museo and that the paper stock is the same.  I've heard this about 
the
> smooth...I don't I don't know about the textured.  Thus I would 
expect that
> they don't have brighteners.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> On 4/10/02 5:05 AM, "Bill Morse" <willym@b...> wrote:
> 
> > Robert, have you tested either of the Epson Fine Art papers (made 
be Crane)
> > for the brighteners?
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Bill
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > on 4/9/02 8:05 PM, Robert G. Morrison wrote:
> > 
> > Well, no coated archival paper is as cheap as EAM.
> > 
> > The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, Eclipse 
Satine Soft
> > White and William Turner.  They are all heavier than EAM, 
although the
> > Eclipse and Museo are much heavier.  None of these papers are as 
white as
> > EAM...in fact to my eye they are all about the same.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >

Robert,

I will send you a sheet of Epson Smooth Fine Art and Textured Fine 
Art.

MIke


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> No, I don't have samples.  If you would like to send some I will 
gladly
> test.  
> 
> Robert Morrison
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> It's my understanding that the coating is nearly (but not) 
identical to
> Museo and that the paper stock is the same.  I've heard this about 
the
> smooth...I don't I don't know about the textured.  Thus I would 
expect that
> they don't have brighteners.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> On 4/10/02 5:05 AM, "Bill Morse" <willym@b...> wrote:
> 
> > Robert, have you tested either of the Epson Fine Art papers (made 
be Crane)
> > for the brighteners?
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Bill
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > on 4/9/02 8:05 PM, Robert G. Morrison wrote:
> > 
> > Well, no coated archival paper is as cheap as EAM.
> > 
> > The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, Eclipse 
Satine Soft
> > White and William Turner.  They are all heavier than EAM, 
although the
> > Eclipse and Museo are much heavier.  None of these papers are as 
white as
> > EAM...in fact to my eye they are all about the same.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >

On 4/10/02 10:06 AM, "mkravit" <michael.kravit@...> wrote:

Great, I'm looking forward to seeing and testing them.  Do you get them from
www.atlex.com?  Does anyone know whether their is a paper setting
specifically for these papers for the 1160 or 1270 driver?  I'm assuming
that there is one in the 2000P/10000 driver.

Robert



> Robert,
> 
> I will send you a sheet of Epson Smooth Fine Art and Textured Fine
> Art.
> 
> MIke
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> No, I don't have samples.  If you would like to send some I will
> gladly
>> test.  
>> 
>> Robert Morrison
>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>> 
>> It's my understanding that the coating is nearly (but not)
> identical to
>> Museo and that the paper stock is the same.  I've heard this about
> the
>> smooth...I don't I don't know about the textured.  Thus I would
> expect that
>> they don't have brighteners.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/10/02 5:05 AM, "Bill Morse" <willym@b...> wrote:
>> 
>>> Robert, have you tested either of the Epson Fine Art papers (made
> be Crane)
>>> for the brighteners?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> on 4/9/02 8:05 PM, Robert G. Morrison wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, no coated archival paper is as cheap as EAM.
>>> 
>>> The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, Eclipse
> Satine Soft
>>> White and William Turner.  They are all heavier than EAM,
> although the
>>> Eclipse and Museo are much heavier.  None of these papers are as
> white as
>>> EAM...in fact to my eye they are all about the same.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> or "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

Would you care to share your workflow and ink mixtures?

Thanks,
Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Wolfson" <richard@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <rmorrison@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:22 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Optical Brighteners in Inkjet Papers


> Robert, thanks for this informative post. I'm trying to select a paper
> for an edition of b&w fine art prints, it's on point for me right now.
>
> I'm using a CMYK workflow and my own custom ink set built from
> Generations pigment inks. I use their enhanced black in the black
> position, and dilutions of their standard (no dye) black in other
> positions, tinted with MY or CM pigments for warm or cold grays. With my
> ink set, I get Dmax = 1.75 with Wm. Turner or Hahn. Photo Rag. I haven't
> tried Eclipse but maybe I should.
>
> However, I get Dmax > 2.5 with RC lustre papers (Lyson Professional
> Photo Satin or Generations ProPhoto Lustre, which seem the same to me).
> The ink takes a day to dry fully -- but I get shadow detail I've been
> unable to match with any matte sheet. The stuff feels like plastic, and
> the surface is fragile, but once it's matted and framed behind glass
> this might not be an issue.
>
> Still, I prefer the feel of an inkjet-coated fine art paper, so I'd love
> to find a way to use one of those and still get the knock-your-socks-off
> tonal range I'm getting with RC lustre. Two questions:
>
> 1. I love Museo (especially the 24 x 36 heavy cut sheets) but find large
> areas of smooth mid-gray (say, sky) can show tonal variations that seem
> related to paper texture. Have you seen this? If so, do you know a cure?
>
> 2. I've avoided coating so far, but after reading your post, maybe I
> need to try it. What is your coating? If you've already posted this
> info, could you tell me where to find it, or email me off-list?
>
> thanks,
> Richard Wolfson
> richard at rwolfson.com
>
> > From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
> >
> > The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo,
> > Eclipse Satine Soft White and William Turner.  They are all
> > heavier than EAM, although the Eclipse and Museo are much
> > heavier.  None of these papers are as white as EAM...in fact
> > to my eye they are all about the same.
> >
> > What the best paper is depends on what you are printing with.
> >  I don't like the surface of William Turner--though it gives
> > the best blacks with PiezoBW or MIS inks with the piezo
> > driver.  Personally, I use Museo with PiezoBW inks and Piezo
> > Driver.  While this ink and paper combination only has a 1.55
> > dmax, it is over 2.0 when coated with my coating.  The coated
> > Museo prints look much better than the coated William Turner.
> >  I'm planning to start using MIS inks with Imageprint
> > soon...so I will probably start to experiment with Eclipse in
> > that work flow.
> >
> > For color work I'm using MIS Perpetual inks and once again I
> > use either Museo or Eclipse.  The Eclipse has both a smooth
> > and more textured side...coated on both sides...so that is a
> > nice option.  Both of these papers give better results with
> > the MIS Perpetual and Indelible inks than the Hahnemuhle
> > papers (e.g., William Turner).  A quad black made with the
> > MIS Double Density Black ink would be fantastic on either
> > Museo or Eclipse...I prefer the look of this black on these
> > papers to anything I've ever seen on Hahnemuhle.
> >
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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resources on the homepage.

>
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>
>
>

Robert, All--
Only the Epson 10000 (and 9500/7500) have a setting specifically for 
SFA and TFA.  Coincidentally, the paper settings are called "smooth 
fine art" and "textured fine art."  The 2000P, 1270/80/90 do not have 
a specific paper setting for SFA, TFA or Museo.

For the 2000P, we recommend using the Archival Matte paper setting to 
produce a profile.  

For the 1270/80, we recommend using the Photo Quality Inkjet Paper or 
Photo Quality Glossy Paper settings if you aren't using a profile. If 
you are using a profile then Heavyweight Matte seems to work better.

For more details, please contact me off-list at rrex@...

hope this helps
robert rex
crane & co


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 4/10/02 10:06 AM, "mkravit" <michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> 
> Great, I'm looking forward to seeing and testing them.  Do you get 
them from
> www.atlex.com?  Does anyone know whether their is a paper setting
> specifically for these papers for the 1160 or 1270 driver?  I'm 
assuming
> that there is one in the 2000P/10000 driver.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> > Robert,
> > 
> > I will send you a sheet of Epson Smooth Fine Art and Textured Fine
> > Art.
> > 
> > MIke
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> > <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> >> No, I don't have samples.  If you would like to send some I will
> > gladly
> >> test.  
> >> 
> >> Robert Morrison
> >> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> >> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> >> 
> >> It's my understanding that the coating is nearly (but not)
> > identical to
> >> Museo and that the paper stock is the same.  I've heard this 
about
> > the
> >> smooth...I don't I don't know about the textured.  Thus I would
> > expect that
> >> they don't have brighteners.
> >> 
> >> Robert
> >> 
> >> On 4/10/02 5:05 AM, "Bill Morse" <willym@b...> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Robert, have you tested either of the Epson Fine Art papers 
(made

> > be Crane)
> >>> for the brighteners?
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks
> >>> 
> >>> Bill
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> on 4/9/02 8:05 PM, Robert G. Morrison wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Well, no coated archival paper is as cheap as EAM.
> >>> 
> >>> The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, Eclipse
> > Satine Soft
> >>> White and William Turner.  They are all heavier than EAM,
> > although the
> >>> Eclipse and Museo are much heavier.  None of these papers are as
> > white as
> >>> EAM...in fact to my eye they are all about the same.

It turns out that this message is more about color...but Robert Rex's post
was here so I'm posting here and also to the Archival Color list.

Thanks, Robert Rex.  Actually, I've found that for 3rd party inks (e.g., MIS
Perpetuals or the Indelible Inks) with either Museo or Eclipse I need to
back off on the ink delivery of the black ink...otherwise I get compressed
shadows.  This problem is even more extreme for Hahnemuhle and EAM papers.
I'm using a 1270 with CIS.  Thus I'm using the Photo Quality Glossy Film
setting and a transfer function in photoshop/page setup and making a linear
correction for the black ink.  It looks like I may need to do this for the
other inks as well...but black is the biggest problem.  I'm using a cmyk
ramp and measuring densities with a spectrocam.  Once I've got things linear
then I profile with the spectrocam and profilerpro with a target printed
with those settings.  I'm getting nice gamut using this technique...rich
saturated colors...but I still have a lot of problem getting a neutral gray
ramp.  The on screen soft proof is also way off...I have to correct with
Doctorpro.  Interestingly, the print itself is rather close to a preview in
Adobe98.  Incontrast the softproof of the profile is really washed out
compared to the actual print.

Incidently, I think I've mentioned this before...but for Museo or Eclipse,
the ultimate quad inkset would be made with MIS Double Density Black...not
the black ink that they use for the FS and VM inkset.  This black is really
beautiful on these papers.  Really rich and neutral...strong (around 1.7)
dmax.

Robert


 On 4/11/02 5:05 AM, "chameleon728" <chameleon@...> wrote:

> Robert, All--
> Only the Epson 10000 (and 9500/7500) have a setting specifically for
> SFA and TFA.  Coincidentally, the paper settings are called "smooth
> fine art" and "textured fine art."  The 2000P, 1270/80/90 do not have
> a specific paper setting for SFA, TFA or Museo.
> 
> For the 2000P, we recommend using the Archival Matte paper setting to
> produce a profile.
> 
> For the 1270/80, we recommend using the Photo Quality Inkjet Paper or
> Photo Quality Glossy Paper settings if you aren't using a profile. If
> you are using a profile then Heavyweight Matte seems to work better.
> 
> For more details, please contact me off-list at rrex@...
> 
> hope this helps
> robert rex
> crane & co
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison"
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> On 4/10/02 10:06 AM, "mkravit" <michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
>> 
>> Great, I'm looking forward to seeing and testing them.  Do you get
> them from
>> www.atlex.com?  Does anyone know whether their is a paper setting
>> specifically for these papers for the 1160 or 1270 driver?  I'm
> assuming
>> that there is one in the 2000P/10000 driver.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Robert,
>>> 
>>> I will send you a sheet of Epson Smooth Fine Art and Textured Fine
>>> Art.
>>> 
>>> MIke
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
>>> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>>> No, I don't have samples.  If you would like to send some I will
>>> gladly
>>>> test.  
>>>> 
>>>> Robert Morrison
>>>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>>>> 
>>>> It's my understanding that the coating is nearly (but not)
>>> identical to
>>>> Museo and that the paper stock is the same.  I've heard this
> about
>>> the
>>>> smooth...I don't I don't know about the textured.  Thus I would
>>> expect that
>>>> they don't have brighteners.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/10/02 5:05 AM, "Bill Morse" <willym@b...> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Robert, have you tested either of the Epson Fine Art papers
> (made
>>> be Crane)
>>>>> for the brighteners?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> on 4/9/02 8:05 PM, Robert G. Morrison wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well, no coated archival paper is as cheap as EAM.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The 100% rag papers that have no brigheners are Museo, Eclipse
>>> Satine Soft
>>>>> White and William Turner.  They are all heavier than EAM,
>>> although the
>>>>> Eclipse and Museo are much heavier.  None of these papers are as
>>> white as
>>>>> EAM...in fact to my eye they are all about the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

In a message dated 4/18/02 6:22:31 PM, rmorrison@... writes:

>The Nature jet does have OB's in the coating...but there are definitely
>less
>than a paper like EAM.  I hadn't seen this paper before.  It has a nice
>medium weight a nice hand.  It is also cheap in comparison to the other
>fine
>art papers ($32.50 for 50 letter sized sheets).  I'll print some later
>and
>report.
>
>The Jet Maxx looks like EAM and is half the price...might be a good option
>for a proofing paper...will also print on that later and report.
> 
I've printed a great deal on both, and can report that I use the double sided 
double weight matte from Dotworks for all my general printing on both roll 
format and sheet feed Epsons... it profiles very nicely too. I use the acid 
free, PH balanced single coated Fine Art matte for those projects that demand 
it, either for longevity or for the thicker softer, watercolor paper feel in 
hand. They have a long life luster that is a favorite as well, and once the 
glossy version of that is available, that will become my standard gloss media.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...