Digital BW, The Print

I have read so much good about the Imageprint 4 Rip, and 
consider to buy one for my Epson 7000 to use with MIS FS / FS-N 
inks.

Have any of you compared the results from the Piezo plugin with 
the output from Epson 7000/Imageprint 4 ??
Is Imageprint really as good as Piezo (no dots, smooth tones 
etc.) ?

Do you know if the Imageprint 4 is ready for Mac ?

How much does Imageprint 4 cost for Eps.7000 ?

Bjorn

Please check the archives, Mike Kravit has posted extensively on this topic.
Imageprint 4 and the PiezoBW 24 RIP are the two options for the 7000 that I
know of.  Both are configured for quad printing and come with numerous paper
profiles that work with these inks.  Thus you don't need to use curves or
transfer functions in photoshop to print quad images. Imageprint 4 is also
planning to release an update within the month that will include MIS VM as
well.

Robert

On 5/7/02 11:02 AM, "bjornaagedk" <bs@...> wrote:

> I have read so much good about the Imageprint 4 Rip, and
> consider to buy one for my Epson 7000 to use with MIS FS / FS-N
> inks.
> 
> Have any of you compared the results from the Piezo plugin with
> the output from Epson 7000/Imageprint 4 ??
> Is Imageprint really as good as Piezo (no dots, smooth tones
> etc.) ?
> 
> Do you know if the Imageprint 4 is ready for Mac ?
> 
> How much does Imageprint 4 cost for Eps.7000 ?
> 
> Bjorn
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Bjorn,

I am using the IP4 RIP on my Epson 7000. IMO, the IP4 RIP prints as well 
if not better than the Piezo RIP. I like the shadow detail and detail 
separation with the IP4 RIP. This may be a personal preference and 
highly subjective. To bolster my opinion, last Saturday I had a friend 
come over who with 3 images printed on the Piezo driver.  We then 
printed the same images from his CD on my 7000 with the ImagePrint 4 
RIP.  There was no comparison, the Piezo prints looked dull, lifeless, 
and weak in the mid-tones and shadow details.

This is not to say that people do not make wonderful prints with the 
Piezo driver, as they do and I did, but for my money, and my liking the 
IP4 RIP is outstanding. You should look at both RIP's and examine the 
dither patters as they are different, then make a decision.

Mike

On Tuesday, May 7, 2002, at 02:02 PM, bjornaagedk wrote:

> I have read so much good about the Imageprint 4 Rip, and
> consider to buy one for my Epson 7000 to use with MIS FS / FS-N
> inks.
>
> Have any of you compared the results from the Piezo plugin with
> the output from Epson 7000/Imageprint 4 ??
> Is Imageprint really as good as Piezo (no dots, smooth tones
> etc.) ?
>
> Do you know if the Imageprint 4 is ready for Mac ?
>
> How much does Imageprint 4 cost for Eps.7000 ?
>
> Bjorn
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Piezo!

For me the biggest factor right now is cost. PiezographyBW Pro is a
lot cheaper if you print to or plan to print to more than 1 printer. 

ImagePrint 4 forces you to buy licenses for each additional printer
you run on it. Right now with my single purchase of PiezographyBW Pro
I am printing on one computer to a 9500, a 7000, a 1280 and a 3000.
This little print factory would cost a fortune with ImagePrint 4. 

Piezo Pro's big selling point (InkjetMall should read this!!!) is that
you can print simultaneously to as many printers as you have printer
ports for on Windows. And it includes drivers and profiles for all
thir supported printers. I can use ethernet, USB and parallel. 

It zips along with small images but does slow a bit on the 9500 when I
am printing on the 1280 at the same time. No problemo on the 7000,
3000 and 1280.

I couldn't afford to consider the ImagePrint because of the studio I
planned.


Brian


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "bjornaagedk" <bs@p...> wrote:

> I have read so much good about the Imageprint 4 Rip, and 
> consider to buy one for my Epson 7000 to use with MIS FS / FS-N 
> inks.
> 
> Have any of you compared the results from the Piezo plugin with 
> the output from Epson 7000/Imageprint 4 ??
> Is Imageprint really as good as Piezo (no dots, smooth tones 
> etc.) ?
> 
> Do you know if the Imageprint 4 is ready for Mac ?
> 
> How much does Imageprint 4 cost for Eps.7000 ?
> 
> Bjorn

On 5/8/02 4:27 PM, "magerabamb" <MagerabamB@...> wrote:

> For me the biggest factor right now is cost. PiezographyBW Pro is a
> lot cheaper if you print to or plan to print to more than 1 printer.
> 
> ImagePrint 4 forces you to buy licenses for each additional printer
> you run on it. Right now with my single purchase of PiezographyBW Pro
> I am printing on one computer to a 9500, a 7000, a 1280 and a 3000.
> This little print factory would cost a fortune with ImagePrint 4.

The additional licenses are much less than the initial copy.  If you buy the
9000 or 7000 version they will also give you the desktop version for free.
I don't know whether you would have to buy two copies (one for the 7000 and
one for the 9000) or whether they would let you just buy an additional
dongle (much cheaper).  Before judging their price I would talk to John
P...they seem very willing to deal with regards to pricing for people
setting up studios.

In addition to BW, Imageprint also has full support for Epson Color OEM inks
and may also have support for 3rd party color inks in the near future...I
think the decision is much more complicated than you make it our to be.
This is a much more powerful product than PiezoBW Pro...but money is
money...I'm just not sure it is really that much more.

Robert

Brian,

Not quite true.

The Piezo RIp is priced at around $2200. Sure it comes with piezo inks, 
but  I consider these a "throw away" as you usually waste more ink than 
you get to keep trying to clear the heads and get a good nozzle check.

The Imageprint 4 RIP is $1400 plus another $100 for a second printer. 
Still cheaper than the Piezo RIP and you get custom profiles for any 
paper you want. Something Cone will not do.

Mike

On Wednesday, May 8, 2002, at 07:27 PM, magerabamb wrote:

> Piezo!
>
> For me the biggest factor right now is cost. PiezographyBW Pro is a
> lot cheaper if you print to or plan to print to more than 1 printer.
>
> ImagePrint 4 forces you to buy licenses for each additional printer
> you run on it. Right now with my single purchase of PiezographyBW Pro
> I am printing on one computer to a 9500, a 7000, a 1280 and a 3000.
> This little print factory would cost a fortune with ImagePrint 4.
>
> Piezo Pro's big selling point (InkjetMall should read this!!!) is that
> you can print simultaneously to as many printers as you have printer
> ports for on Windows. And it includes drivers and profiles for all
> thir supported printers. I can use ethernet, USB and parallel.
>
> It zips along with small images but does slow a bit on the 9500 when I
> am printing on the 1280 at the same time. No problemo on the 7000,
> 3000 and 1280.
>
> I couldn't afford to consider the ImagePrint because of the studio I
> planned.
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "bjornaagedk" <bs@p...> wrote:
>> I have read so much good about the Imageprint 4 Rip, and
>> consider to buy one for my Epson 7000 to use with MIS FS / FS-N
>> inks.
>>
>> Have any of you compared the results from the Piezo plugin with
>> the output from Epson 7000/Imageprint 4 ??
>> Is Imageprint really as good as Piezo (no dots, smooth tones
>> etc.) ?
>>
>> Do you know if the Imageprint 4 is ready for Mac ?
>>
>> How much does Imageprint 4 cost for Eps.7000 ?
>>
>> Bjorn
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Robert-

I have the same issue...only worse...all my printers are desktop and 
when I talked with them, they really had no solution for the desktop 
world. In fact they really are only focusing on the wide format 
printers. This is astounding to me since it seems to me they would be 
selling thousands of copies of a desktop version that worked with all 
the printers that Piezo works with??

Or am I missing something?

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 5/8/02 4:27 PM, "magerabamb" <MagerabamB@n...> wrote:
> 
> > For me the biggest factor right now is cost. PiezographyBW Pro is 
a
> > lot cheaper if you print to or plan to print to more than 1 
printer.
> > 
> > ImagePrint 4 forces you to buy licenses for each additional 
printer
> > you run on it. Right now with my single purchase of PiezographyBW 
Pro
> > I am printing on one computer to a 9500, a 7000, a 1280 and a 
3000.
> > This little print factory would cost a fortune with ImagePrint 4.
> 
> The additional licenses are much less than the initial copy.  If 
you buy the
> 9000 or 7000 version they will also give you the desktop version 
for free.
> I don't know whether you would have to buy two copies (one for the 
7000 and
> one for the 9000) or whether they would let you just buy an 
additional
> dongle (much cheaper).  Before judging their price I would talk to 
John
> P...they seem very willing to deal with regards to pricing for 
people
> setting up studios.
> 
> In addition to BW, Imageprint also has full support for Epson Color 
OEM inks
> and may also have support for 3rd party color inks in the near 
future...I
> think the decision is much more complicated than you make it our to 
be.

> This is a much more powerful product than PiezoBW Pro...but money is
> money...I'm just not sure it is really that much more.
> 
> Robert

Robert,

The folks at Colorbyte are VERy fair in their pricing. I bought the RIP 
for the 7000 and then added the RIP for the 10000. I don't want to 
disclose the price, but from what I understand it was very close to 
their (Colorbyte) cost. There is no question that they support their 
customers and do what they can to work with us.

They ran 7 paper profiles for me in a few days and then posted them so 
we could all benefit. They apologized that it took more than 2 days.

Mike

On Wednesday, May 8, 2002, at 09:23 PM, Robert G. Morrison wrote:

> On 5/8/02 4:27 PM, "magerabamb" <MagerabamB@...> wrote:
>
>> For me the biggest factor right now is cost. PiezographyBW Pro is a
>> lot cheaper if you print to or plan to print to more than 1 printer.
>>
>> ImagePrint 4 forces you to buy licenses for each additional printer
>> you run on it. Right now with my single purchase of PiezographyBW Pro
>> I am printing on one computer to a 9500, a 7000, a 1280 and a 3000.
>> This little print factory would cost a fortune with ImagePrint 4.
>
> The additional licenses are much less than the initial copy.  If you 
> buy the
> 9000 or 7000 version they will also give you the desktop version for 
> free.
> I don't know whether you would have to buy two copies (one for the 7000 
> and
> one for the 9000) or whether they would let you just buy an additional
> dongle (much cheaper).  Before judging their price I would talk to John
> P...they seem very willing to deal with regards to pricing for people
> setting up studios.
>
> In addition to BW, Imageprint also has full support for Epson Color OEM 
> inks
> and may also have support for 3rd party color inks in the near 
> future...I
> think the decision is much more complicated than you make it our to be.
> This is a much more powerful product than PiezoBW Pro...but money is
> money...I'm just not sure it is really that much more.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Mike,

Definitely Not True!

The Piezo Rip is not "around $2200". It is EXACTLY $1,500 
which is what I paid for it at IJM and I was NOT required to buy 
inks.

As for profiles, with nearly 50 really excellent papers supported 
and more coming, why would I want a custom?  All you need to 
do is ask Cone to profile new papers and you get them. The new 
version however has K2L mapping and it lets me tune in profiles 
to my liking anyway. 


You used to be worth listening to, and now you have become the 
propaganda king of this list. I read your negative Cone 
comments which you make at every opportunity. I am losing 
respect for you more and more each week.

I wouldn't have spoken my mind just now, but I resented being 
told "not quite true..."    Worse yet is that you followed it up with an 
outright lie. 

Just stick to the facts Mike and not your petty personal wars. You 
certainly are mis-taken to pick on me. I am very ink neutral, 
neither favoring PiezographyBW inks nor MIS inks.

pissed and owed an apology,

Brian



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Michael J. Kravit <
mjkaia@k...> wrote:
> Brian,
> 
> Not quite true.
> 
> The Piezo RIp is priced at around $2200. 
> Still cheaper than the Piezo RIP and you get custom profiles for 
any 

> paper you want. Something Cone will not do.
> 
> Mike

On 5/8/02 9:23 PM, "magerabamb" <MagerabamB@...> wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> Definitely Not True!
> 
> The Piezo Rip is not "around $2200". It is EXACTLY $1,500
> which is what I paid for it at IJM and I was NOT required to buy
> inks.
> 
That's not what his web site says...
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/piezography-purchase.html

It ranges from $2130 to $2495.  The 7000 and 9000 are separate
products...not cross compatible.  He may of cut you deal...but that's not
what he is advertising.


> As for profiles, with nearly 50 really excellent papers supported
> and more coming, why would I want a custom?

Because several of the best papers (IMO) are not in this list.  Other
profiles that are on the list are simply terrible.

> All you need to 
> do is ask Cone to profile new papers and you get them. The new
> version however has K2L mapping and it lets me tune in profiles
> to my liking anyway.
> 
This has not been my experience...he has been completely unwilling in the
past to do quad profiles...I've asked several times.  He does color
profiles...but not quad on demand...even for a price.

> You used to be worth listening to, and now you have become the
> propaganda king of this list. I read your negative Cone
> comments which you make at every opportunity. I am losing
> respect for you more and more each week.
> 
> I wouldn't have spoken my mind just now, but I resented being
> told "not quite true..."    Worse yet is that you followed it up with an
> outright lie. 
> 
> Just stick to the facts Mike and not your petty personal wars. You
> certainly are mis-taken to pick on me. I am very ink neutral,
> neither favoring PiezographyBW inks nor MIS inks.
> 
> pissed and owed an apology,
> 
Actually I think you owe Mike an apology!  I'm a long time piezo user, but
honestly, the product has some major short comings.  Mike, more than anyone
I know, has evaluated many of the options (and bought them all).  He
certainly has the right to speak his mind about what he sees as the ups and
downs of each product.

Robert

> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Michael J. Kravit <
> mjkaia@k...> wrote:
>> Brian,
>> 
>> Not quite true.
>> 
>> The Piezo RIp is priced at around $2200.
>> Still cheaper than the Piezo RIP and you get custom profiles for
> any 
>> paper you want. Something Cone will not do.
>> 
>> Mike
> 
> 
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs. Imageprint 4


>  Mike, more than anyone
> I know, has evaluated many of the options (and bought them all).  He
> certainly has the right to speak his mind about what he sees as the ups >
and downs of each product.

That statement might indeed be true, but the question is at what point does
a studied comment become a grudge statement, and I would suggest that when
the criticism is more frequent than the praise then one is reasonably
allowed to suspect that something more than an honest expression of opinion
is going on around here.

> 
> The Piezo Rip is not "around $2200". It is EXACTLY $1,500 
> which is what I paid for it at IJM and I was NOT required to buy 
> inks.
> 

That is news to me.  My understanding, which Mike clearly shares, is 
that you have to buy the inks with the RIP.  Maybe that has changed, 
but I was not aware of the change.

I use Piezo Pro24 on a 7000.  I like it a lot, but the software has 
some limitations.  I think Mike would acknowledge that Jon and his 
crew have done a great deal in advancing the quality of digital B&W 
printing, but others are catching up.  Don't forget that Piezo 2 - 
now apparently shelved for unexplained reasons - is (was?) a version 
of ImagePrint 4. 
 
--
Quentin

Brian.

Many people have called and requested that Cone sell his RIP without 
the inks. they have been told that Piezography is a system. Please 
take a look at their website, I think you find the following....

PiezographyBW Pro one price includes drivers for all supported 
printers above and below. User can print to as many devices as they 
have printer ports for at no additional charge. 
EPSON 7000 
 $2130 
 
EPSON 7500 
 $2130 
 
EPSON 9000 
 $2495
 
EPSON 9500 
 $2495
 
The above information backs up my claim. If they sold it to you w/o 
the inks, then great, you are ahead of the curve.

Secondly, many of us have continually asked Jon Cone for paper 
profiles over the past year and a half. It literally took him months 
and months to release new profiles.

So what happens if you go out tomorrow and buy a new paper for a 
client that needs his job printed by next Wednesday. Will you be 
able to get an "ICQ" profile from Jon? Experience has shown that you 
may not be able to do so.

Brian, I am not lying (see above cone info) nor did I attack you. 
Obviously you are being hyper-sensitive and taking this stuff the 
wrong way. If you think that I am "not worth listening to" then by 
all means don't listen. That is up to you.

If you are "pissed" then perhaps you need to reassess what you allow 
to bother you. As for Cone wars, not true, we call it like we see 
it. Telling that truth about all products is what makes a "free 
agent" truly credible. The truth is some people are locked to a 
particular system or product. I use many including Cones Piezography 
(no longer on my 7000) but on my 1280. I have no issue with his 
software and do think that it is VERY GOOD as I have stated in the 
past.

His inks are less than stellar in my opinion. They clog and have a 
variety of other problems including a green dye or solvent that 
separates in a blot test as Paul Roard has shown.

I believe that you are taking these discussions out of context. I 
could understand you getting "pissed" if you are damages or lost 
money by a product, but if you are having good results with a 
software product then enjoy.

Also, check the archives of this list and you will see others who 
have contacted IJM to but the software only. They were told that IJM 
only sells the ink and driver as a package. If IJM has changed their 
policy, then I think all of the discussions on this forum have been 
worth while and productive.

Again, if you check the archives, I think you find that I have 
continually praised Jon Cone for his customer service and fine 
software product, you will also find that when it comes to real 
world clogging problems we discuss them openly and fairly....just 
ask Jim Hayes.

No, Brian there is no apology due. I stand by everything I wrote and 
in fact have backed it up with the facts from IJM's website. Should 
they revise their pricing schedule and change it on their website, 
then I think we will all agree that IJM is doing what their 
customers have asked, but Brian you have questioned my credibility, 
knowledge and took a statement of fact as infamatory and turned it 
into a personal attack.

My response here is cordial, civil, and factual. I will under no 
circumstances lower myself to make this personal.

Life is too short.

Mike


Secondly, 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "magerabamb" 
<MagerabamB@n...> wrote:
> Mike,
> 
> Definitely Not True!
> 
> The Piezo Rip is not "around $2200". It is EXACTLY $1,500 
> which is what I paid for it at IJM and I was NOT required to buy 
> inks.
> 
> As for profiles, with nearly 50 really excellent papers supported 
> and more coming, why would I want a custom?  All you need to 
> do is ask Cone to profile new papers and you get them. The new 
> version however has K2L mapping and it lets me tune in profiles 
> to my liking anyway. 
> 
> 
> You used to be worth listening to, and now you have become the 
> propaganda king of this list. I read your negative Cone 
> comments which you make at every opportunity. I am losing 
> respect for you more and more each week.
> 
> I wouldn't have spoken my mind just now, but I resented being 
> told "not quite true..."    Worse yet is that you followed it up 
with an 

> outright lie. 
> 
> Just stick to the facts Mike and not your petty personal wars. You 
> certainly are mis-taken to pick on me. I am very ink neutral, 
> neither favoring PiezographyBW inks nor MIS inks.
> 
> pissed and owed an apology,
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Michael J. Kravit <
> mjkaia@k...> wrote:
> > Brian,
> > 
> > Not quite true.
> > 
> > The Piezo RIp is priced at around $2200. 
> > Still cheaper than the Piezo RIP and you get custom profiles for 
> any 
> > paper you want. Something Cone will not do.
> > 
> > Mike

In a message dated 5/9/2002 8:59:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mjkaia@... writes:


> PiezographyBW Pro one price includes drivers for all supported 
> printers above and below. User can print to as many devices as they 
> have printer ports for at no additional charge. 
> 

Is a seperate dongle necessary for each printer?
George J Kunze


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been using the Piezo System (software and ink) on an 1160 and a 
3000 for more than one and a half year now. 
I switched to MIS FS on my 1160 at the advent of those inks but still use 
Cone inks on my 3000 (without mayor probklems). 
I have been running MIS VM inks with Paul´s curves on my 1290 and on my 
7500 and still use MIS VM on my 1290 but switched to IP4 with MIS FS on my =

7500. 

I did it on recommendation and with the gentle help of Mike Kravit. And I´m=
 
greatfull for his advise. Everything he told me online and offline in advan=
ce 
and during the setup procedure (which he accompanied) has become true.
 
I sent about 8 new 7500/MIS FS paper profile targets to Colorbyte some days=
 
ago, which hopefully are on their way across the ocean meanwhile, and the 
Colorbyte guys promised to profile the papers within two or three working 
days after getting them. (I´ll post them as soon as I get them.)
Bernd 









--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mkravit" <mjkaia@k...> wrote:

> 
> Brian.
> 
> Many people have called and requested that Cone sell his RIP without 
> the inks. they have been told that Piezography is a system. Please 
> take a look at their website, I think you find the following....
> 
> PiezographyBW Pro one price includes drivers for all supported 
> printers above and below. User can print to as many devices as they 
> have printer ports for at no additional charge. 
> EPSON 7000 
>  $2130 
>  
> EPSON 7500 
>  $2130 
>  
> EPSON 9000 
>  $2495
>  
> EPSON 9500 
>  $2495
>  
> The above information backs up my claim. If they sold it to you w/o 
> the inks, then great, you are ahead of the curve.
> 
> Secondly, many of us have continually asked Jon Cone for paper 
> profiles over the past year and a half. It literally took him months 
> and months to release new profiles.
> 
> So what happens if you go out tomorrow and buy a new paper for a 
> client that needs his job printed by next Wednesday. Will you be 
> able to get an "ICQ" profile from Jon? Experience has shown that you 
> may not be able to do so.
> 
> Brian, I am not lying (see above cone info) nor did I attack you. 
> Obviously you are being hyper-sensitive and taking this stuff the 
> wrong way. If you think that I am "not worth listening to" then by 
> all means don't listen. That is up to you.
> 
> If you are "pissed" then perhaps you need to reassess what you allow 
> to bother you. As for Cone wars, not true, we call it like we see 
> it. Telling that truth about all products is what makes a "free 
> agent" truly credible. The truth is some people are locked to a 
> particular system or product. I use many including Cones Piezography 
> (no longer on my 7000) but on my 1280. I have no issue with his 
> software and do think that it is VERY GOOD as I have stated in the 
> past.
> 
> His inks are less than stellar in my opinion. They clog and have a 
> variety of other problems including a green dye or solvent that 
> separates in a blot test as Paul Roard has shown.
> 
> I believe that you are taking these discussions out of context. I 
> could understand you getting "pissed" if you are damages or lost 
> money by a product, but if you are having good results with a 
> software product then enjoy.
> 
> Also, check the archives of this list and you will see others who 
> have contacted IJM to but the software only. They were told that IJM 
> only sells the ink and driver as a package. If IJM has changed their 
> policy, then I think all of the discussions on this forum have been 
> worth while and productive.
> 
> Again, if you check the archives, I think you find that I have 
> continually praised Jon Cone for his customer service and fine 
> software product, you will also find that when it comes to real 
> world clogging problems we discuss them openly and fairly....just 
> ask Jim Hayes.
> 
> No, Brian there is no apology due. I stand by everything I wrote and 
> in fact have backed it up with the facts from IJM's website. Should 
> they revise their pricing schedule and change it on their website, 
> then I think we will all agree that IJM is doing what their 
> customers have asked, but Brian you have questioned my credibility, 
> knowledge and took a statement of fact as infamatory and turned it 
> into a personal attack.
> 
> My response here is cordial, civil, and factual. I will under no 
> circumstances lower myself to make this personal.
> 
> Life is too short.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Secondly, 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "magerabamb" 
> <MagerabamB@n...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Definitely Not True!
> > 
> > The Piezo Rip is not "around $2200". It is EXACTLY $1,500 
> > which is what I paid for it at IJM and I was NOT required to buy 
> > inks.
> > 
> > As for profiles, with nearly 50 really excellent papers supported 
> > and more coming, why would I want a custom?  All you need to 
> > do is ask Cone to profile new papers and you get them. The new 
> > version however has K2L mapping and it lets me tune in profiles 
> > to my liking anyway. 
> > 
> > 
> > You used to be worth listening to, and now you have become the 
> > propaganda king of this list. I read your negative Cone 
> > comments which you make at every opportunity. I am losing 
> > respect for you more and more each week.
> > 
> > I wouldn't have spoken my mind just now, but I resented being 
> > told "not quite true..."    Worse yet is that you followed it up 
> with an 
> > outright lie. 
> > 
> > Just stick to the facts Mike and not your petty personal wars. You 
> > certainly are mis-taken to pick on me. I am very ink neutral, 
> > neither favoring PiezographyBW inks nor MIS inks.
> > 
> > pissed and owed an apology,
> > 
> > Brian
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Michael J. Kravit <
> > mjkaia@k...> wrote:
> > > Brian,
> > > 
> > > Not quite true.
> > > 
> > > The Piezo RIp is priced at around $2200. 
> > > Still cheaper than the Piezo RIP and you get custom profiles for 
> > any 
> > > paper you want. Something Cone will not do.
> > > 
> > > Mike

----- Original Message -----

From: "ruhrfoto" <ruhrfoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 3:00 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs. Imageprint 4

> I did it on recommendation and with the gentle help of Mike Kravit.

It has become clear to me that this Kravit individual is deserving of some
kind of  award or if you like, public recognition.

Time after time the name of Kravit (which in itself is a not particularly
appealing sound when rolled around the tongue) appears in connection with
some kindness or good deed (rather like Robin Hood, he robs the knowledge
rich base in our Digital B&W society and gives abundently to the knowledge
poor).

Is it not time that we introduced some kind of an " All Round Good Egg"
award for that induvidual whose personal contribution - user specific value
wise - to this list exceeds even their own estimation of it's true worth?

My own particular salutation would read as follows:-

"In recognition of all the exceptionally good and helpful acts carried out
by brother Kravit during the period up to and including April 2001-2002, we
the inhabitants of that global entity known as
'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com award the aforementioned
brother Kravit the title of "All Round Good Egg" for his outstandingly
helpful contributions to many unnamed individuals during the aformentioned
year.

I rest my case and keep my own council, not to mention 'I await events'.

Yours sincerely

The Mighty Dickbo - protector of the flame of honesty, decency and all round
good egness.

Mr. Kravit and I have just recently met and he is a most gracious and
knowledgeable man. Photography is his love and passion, but not his primary
profession. However his knowledge of this field rival most professionals.
Michael�s kindness in sharing his knowledge have made a difference in my
life and profession. I do not understand what is going on here as I am new
at this, but from PERSONAL experience there are a lot of folks who could
learn great amounts from him. He has no ego to massage nor axe to grind.

Yeah� a very good egg in my books.

Steven Greenwald

South Florida's Finest Art Gallery and Picture Framing
Steven F. Greenwald Design, Inc.
www.fineartandframing.com <http://www.fineartandframing.com/>
sfg@...

-----Original Message-----
From: dickbo [mailto:Dickbo@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 10:27 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs. Imageprint 4

----- Original Message -----
From: "ruhrfoto" <ruhrfoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 3:00 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs. Imageprint 4

> I did it on recommendation and with the gentle help of Mike Kravit.

It has become clear to me that this Kravit individual is deserving of some
kind of  award or if you like, public recognition.

Time after time the name of Kravit (which in itself is a not particularly
appealing sound when rolled around the tongue) appears in connection with
some kindness or good deed (rather like Robin Hood, he robs the knowledge
rich base in our Digital B&W society and gives abundently to the knowledge
poor).

Is it not time that we introduced some kind of an " All Round Good Egg"
award for that induvidual whose personal contribution - user specific value
wise - to this list exceeds even their own estimation of it's true worth?

My own particular salutation would read as follows:-

"In recognition of all the exceptionally good and helpful acts carried out
by brother Kravit during the period up to and including April 2001-2002, we
the inhabitants of that global entity known as
'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com award the aforementioned
brother Kravit the title of "All Round Good Egg" for his outstandingly
helpful contributions to many unnamed individuals during the aformentioned
year.

I rest my case and keep my own council, not to mention 'I await events'.

Yours sincerely

The Mighty Dickbo - protector of the flame of honesty, decency and all round
good egness.








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "dickbo" <Dickbo@b...> 
wrote:

> Time after time the name of Kravit (which in itself is a not 
particularly
> appealing sound when rolled around the tongue) appears in 
connection with
> some kindness or good deed (rather like Robin Hood, he robs 
the knowledge
> rich base in our Digital B&W society and gives abundently to 
the knowledge
> poor).

Well, Mr. Dickbo,
you have certainly got a strange kind of humor  - and as a 
foreigner, who isn´t aware of all the subtilities of your language, I 
must admit that I can´t follow always.
But one thing is for sure, trying to disqualify somebody by 
disparagement of his name disqualifies the the person who 
does so.  It is as stupid as belittling someone because of the 
color of his skin or his religion. And believe me, as a German I 
know a lot about this stupidity. Maybe you are the poor 
knowledged in this issue.
Bernd

"dickbo" <Dickbo@...> wrote the list in response to 
Robert Morrison's post:

> >  Mike, more than anyone
> > I know, has evaluated many of the options (and bought them all).  He
> > certainly has the right to speak his mind about what he sees as the ups >
>and downs of each product.
>
>That statement might indeed be true, but the question is at what point does
>a studied comment become a grudge statement, [snip]

but that was not the question for me. For me, the question was and is 
whether incivility will be tolerated on the list. And I hope not 
because it corrodes the spirit of community which lists need to 
thrive.


>and I would suggest that when the criticism is more frequent than 
>the praise then one is reasonably allowed to suspect that something 
>more than an honest expression of opinion
>is going on around here.

No, one isn't: products don't necessarily deserve praise and 
criticism with equal frequency, and even if they did, honest people 
would sometimes fail to deliver them that way. Why even suspect 
dishonesty, much less air the suspicion on the list?

Suspicions are one thing and published accusations are another. So 
are sly insinuations; I don't think Dickbo's belong on the list 
either.

Sam McCandless                samcc@...

Spell it out lad will you... your comments are quite beyond my
understanding.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam A. McCandless" <samcc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 4:05 PM
Subject: incivility on the list (was Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs.
Imageprint 4)


> "dickbo" <Dickbo@...> wrote the list in response to
> Robert Morrison's post:
>
> > >  Mike, more than anyone
> > > I know, has evaluated many of the options (and bought them all).  He
> > > certainly has the right to speak his mind about what he sees as the
ups >
> >and downs of each product.
> >
> >That statement might indeed be true, but the question is at what point
does
> >a studied comment become a grudge statement, [snip]
>
> but that was not the question for me. For me, the question was and is
> whether incivility will be tolerated on the list. And I hope not
> because it corrodes the spirit of community which lists need to
> thrive.
>
>
> >and I would suggest that when the criticism is more frequent than
> >the praise then one is reasonably allowed to suspect that something
> >more than an honest expression of opinion
> >is going on around here.
>
> No, one isn't: products don't necessarily deserve praise and
> criticism with equal frequency, and even if they did, honest people
> would sometimes fail to deliver them that way. Why even suspect
> dishonesty, much less air the suspicion on the list?
>
> Suspicions are one thing and published accusations are another. So
> are sly insinuations; I don't think Dickbo's belong on the list
> either.
>
> Sam McCandless                samcc@...
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Mike,

Below is the word from the man himself. I didn't attack you personally. You said that what I wrote was not quite true. It was true. I apologize therefore for saying yours was an outright lie. That may have been too harsh. You probably just are uninformed. But you were not accurate in any event.

Brian





> on 5/9/02 8:59 AM, MagerabamB@... at MagerabamB@...
> wrote:
> 
>> Jon,
>> 
>> What is your policy about selling PiezoBW RIP? Is it sold separately or
>> not? I bought it seperate and I am not aware that I was given any 
>> favors. Your website does not have a RIP only price!!
>> 
>> Brian Magera
> 
> 
> Hi Brian,
> 
> We really only have a policy on the PiezographyBW plug-in. The plug-in
> has a value of about $495 and we sell it only in kits of inks, papers and
> software. The cost to the end-user ends up about $150. So the policy
> is that we do not sell the plug-in separately. It was created as matched
> software/inks product.
> 
> On the other hand, the PiezographyBW Pro RIP is $1,500 and we sell that
> separate because it is being sold at its value.Depending upon who creates
> the IJM web pages, it sometimes appears unbundled. You were not give any
> special favors, we have had other customers who buy it without inks. I am
> sorry if you are having trouble purchasing a second copy. People call
> in when they want something unavailable or special. If you are having
> trouble purchasing it again please call Jim Downey at InkjetMall (802)
> 222-4415. You can reference this e-mail if you need to.
> 
> 
> Happy printing,
> 
> Jon Cone






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mkravit" <mjkaia@k...> wrote:
> 
> Brian.
> 
> Many people have called and requested that Cone sell his RIP without 
> the inks. they have been told that Piezography is a system. Please 
> take a look at their website, I think you find the following....
> 
> PiezographyBW Pro one price includes drivers for all supported 
> printers above and below. User can print to as many devices as they 
> have printer ports for at no additional charge. 
> EPSON 7000 
>  $2130 
>  
> EPSON 7500 
>  $2130 
>  
> EPSON 9000 
>  $2495
>  
> EPSON 9500 
>  $2495
>  
> The above information backs up my claim. If they sold it to you w/o 
> the inks, then great, you are ahead of the curve.
> 
> Secondly, many of us have continually asked Jon Cone for paper 
> profiles over the past year and a half. It literally took him months 
> and months to release new profiles.
> 
> So what happens if you go out tomorrow and buy a new paper for a 
> client that needs his job printed by next Wednesday. Will you be 
> able to get an "ICQ" profile from Jon? Experience has shown that you 
> may not be able to do so.
> 
> Brian, I am not lying (see above cone info) nor did I attack you. 
> Obviously you are being hyper-sensitive and taking this stuff the 
> wrong way. If you think that I am "not worth listening to" then by 
> all means don't listen. That is up to you.
> 
> If you are "pissed" then perhaps you need to reassess what you allow 
> to bother you. As for Cone wars, not true, we call it like we see 
> it. Telling that truth about all products is what makes a "free 
> agent" truly credible. The truth is some people are locked to a 
> particular system or product. I use many including Cones Piezography 
> (no longer on my 7000) but on my 1280. I have no issue with his 
> software and do think that it is VERY GOOD as I have stated in the 
> past.
> 
> His inks are less than stellar in my opinion. They clog and have a 
> variety of other problems including a green dye or solvent that 
> separates in a blot test as Paul Roard has shown.
> 
> I believe that you are taking these discussions out of context. I 
> could understand you getting "pissed" if you are damages or lost 
> money by a product, but if you are having good results with a 
> software product then enjoy.
> 
> Also, check the archives of this list and you will see others who 
> have contacted IJM to but the software only. They were told that IJM 
> only sells the ink and driver as a package. If IJM has changed their 
> policy, then I think all of the discussions on this forum have been 
> worth while and productive.
> 
> Again, if you check the archives, I think you find that I have 
> continually praised Jon Cone for his customer service and fine 
> software product, you will also find that when it comes to real 
> world clogging problems we discuss them openly and fairly....just 
> ask Jim Hayes.
> 
> No, Brian there is no apology due. I stand by everything I wrote and 
> in fact have backed it up with the facts from IJM's website. Should 
> they revise their pricing schedule and change it on their website, 
> then I think we will all agree that IJM is doing what their 
> customers have asked, but Brian you have questioned my credibility, 
> knowledge and took a statement of fact as infamatory and turned it 
> into a personal attack.
> 
> My response here is cordial, civil, and factual. I will under no 
> circumstances lower myself to make this personal.
> 
> Life is too short.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Secondly, 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "magerabamb" 
> <MagerabamB@n...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Definitely Not True!
> > 
> > The Piezo Rip is not "around $2200". It is EXACTLY $1,500 
> > which is what I paid for it at IJM and I was NOT required to buy 
> > inks.
> > 
> > As for profiles, with nearly 50 really excellent papers supported 
> > and more coming, why would I want a custom?  All you need to 
> > do is ask Cone to profile new papers and you get them. The new 
> > version however has K2L mapping and it lets me tune in profiles 
> > to my liking anyway. 
> > 
> > 
> > You used to be worth listening to, and now you have become the 
> > propaganda king of this list. I read your negative Cone 
> > comments which you make at every opportunity. I am losing 
> > respect for you more and more each week.
> > 
> > I wouldn't have spoken my mind just now, but I resented being 
> > told "not quite true..."    Worse yet is that you followed it up 
> with an 
> > outright lie. 
> > 
> > Just stick to the facts Mike and not your petty personal wars. You 
> > certainly are mis-taken to pick on me. I am very ink neutral, 
> > neither favoring PiezographyBW inks nor MIS inks.
> > 
> > pissed and owed an apology,
> > 
> > Brian
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Michael J. Kravit <
> > mjkaia@k...> wrote:
> > > Brian,
> > > 
> > > Not quite true.
> > > 
> > > The Piezo RIp is priced at around $2200. 
> > > Still cheaper than the Piezo RIP and you get custom profiles for 
> > any 
> > > paper you want. Something Cone will not do.
> > > 
> > > Mike


__________________________________________________________________
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For most of us on the list, sarcasm and clever diction are rarely
substituted for 'domestic' humor or slights.  Perhaps you could spell it out
mate.

Kevin

On 5/9/02 7:27 AM, "dickbo" <Dickbo@...> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ruhrfoto" <ruhrfoto@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 3:00 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs. Imageprint 4
> 
>> I did it on recommendation and with the gentle help of Mike Kravit.
> 
> It has become clear to me that this Kravit individual is deserving of some
> kind of  award or if you like, public recognition.
> 
> Time after time the name of Kravit (which in itself is a not particularly
> appealing sound when rolled around the tongue) appears in connection with
> some kindness or good deed (rather like Robin Hood, he robs the knowledge
> rich base in our Digital B&W society and gives abundently to the knowledge
> poor).
> 
> Is it not time that we introduced some kind of an " All Round Good Egg"
> award for that induvidual whose personal contribution - user specific value
> wise - to this list exceeds even their own estimation of it's true worth?
> 
> My own particular salutation would read as follows:-
> 
> "In recognition of all the exceptionally good and helpful acts carried out
> by brother Kravit during the period up to and including April 2001-2002, we
> the inhabitants of that global entity known as
> 'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com award the aforementioned
> brother Kravit the title of "All Round Good Egg" for his outstandingly
> helpful contributions to many unnamed individuals during the aformentioned
> year.
> 
> I rest my case and keep my own council, not to mention 'I await events'.
> 
> Yours sincerely
> 
> The Mighty Dickbo - protector of the flame of honesty, decency and all round
> good egness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

I think rather that you should try using your brains.....MATE.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Gulstene" <kevin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs. Imageprint 4


> For most of us on the list, sarcasm and clever diction are rarely
> substituted for 'domestic' humor or slights.  Perhaps you could spell it
out
> mate.
>
> Kevin
> On 5/9/02 7:27 AM, "dickbo" <Dickbo@...> wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "ruhrfoto" <ruhrfoto@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 3:00 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezo vs. Imageprint 4
> >
> >> I did it on recommendation and with the gentle help of Mike Kravit.
> >
> > It has become clear to me that this Kravit individual is deserving of
some
> > kind of  award or if you like, public recognition.
> >
> > Time after time the name of Kravit (which in itself is a not
particularly
> > appealing sound when rolled around the tongue) appears in connection
with
> > some kindness or good deed (rather like Robin Hood, he robs the
knowledge
> > rich base in our Digital B&W society and gives abundently to the
knowledge
> > poor).
> >
> > Is it not time that we introduced some kind of an " All Round Good Egg"
> > award for that induvidual whose personal contribution - user specific
value
> > wise - to this list exceeds even their own estimation of it's true
worth?
> >
> > My own particular salutation would read as follows:-
> >
> > "In recognition of all the exceptionally good and helpful acts carried
out
> > by brother Kravit during the period up to and including April 2001-2002,
we
> > the inhabitants of that global entity known as
> > 'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com award the aforementioned
> > brother Kravit the title of "All Round Good Egg" for his outstandingly
> > helpful contributions to many unnamed individuals during the
aformentioned
> > year.
> >
> > I rest my case and keep my own council, not to mention 'I await events'.
> >
> > Yours sincerely
> >
> > The Mighty Dickbo - protector of the flame of honesty, decency and all
round
> > good egness.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Folks,

This is getting really off topic.

Let's stop the bickering. I appreciate everyone's support and 
respect those that do not agree with my point of view.

What I find digusting is the personal attacks by a couple of 
individuals that obviously are too immature to debate an issue in an 
intelligent manner.

Calling names, making  derogatory "good egg" awards, and the such is 
really borish behavior and only hurts those that offer these remarks 
for public consumption. These remarks only serve to belittle the 
author(s) and provide confirmation to the rest of the pedestrian 
minds that think up such things.

If anyone has a bone to pick, you can call me personally at 561-893-
0042 and I would be pleased to discuss it with you. Otherwise, let's 
drop it!

The type of business I run is very graphics oriented. We have state 
of the art equipment and we depend on that equipment to do what the 
manufacturer says it will do. I am more than pleased to share our 
experiences and provide guidance to those needing it. I WILL NOT 
under any circumstances disseminate "PROPAGANDA" nor do I have an 
agenda or bobe to pick with anyone. Business is business and this is 
not personal despite what Brian or anyone else may think.

If a product stinks and we disuss the problems, so be it. If a 
product is great and we discuss it's attributes then so be it. If 
you disagree, fine let's discuss the virtues on both sides of the 
fence.....but let's not make these discussions personal as Mr. 
Dickbo so often does, and then throws insults against anyone that 
questions his wisdom or lack thereof.

No more to say.

Ciao
Mike

----- Original Message -----

From: "mkravit" <mjkaia@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 6:00 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ink Wars - Drop it!


> fence.....but let's not make these discussions personal as Mr.
> Dickbo so often does,

Oh OK, then your not an all round good egg, I must have misrepresented your
qualities.