Digital BW, The Print

Don't you see anything even slightly wrong in claiming and using other
people's hard-earned knowledge? Would you scan books authored by other
people and archive those? Don't you accept the principal of Intellectual
Copyright? Would you like it if I knicked the coding of your database? I
really don't understand.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Popovitch" <greg@...>
To: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
Cc: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 9:51 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook


>
> Hello Martin and Antonis,
>
> I don't believe you are correct when you state that we have
> violated Yahoo's "Terms of Service". I also don't believe
> that you have the authority to request that we remove posts
> from anyone besides yourself.
>
> However, we have decided that we will indeed remove all posts
> from this group while we investigate this further. Of course
> the posts of individuals who request so will be permanently
> removed.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gregory Popovitch
> Binbooks Corporation
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 1:17 PM
> To: greg@...; gregory@...
> Cc: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: The Photo Binbook
>
>
> Gregory,
>
> After reviewing the binbook discussion we, as the Group's owners, have
> reached a position on the matter.
>
> While our intent is to disseminate information about the many techniques
of
> producing a B&W print from a digital file, we take exception to your
> approach.
>
> We feel that it would have been appropriate for you to have first
approached
> the Group owners about your project, then to have brought up the subject
> with the entire Group, and finally obtained permission from each
individual
> to reproduce each individual post and to publish their e-mail address.
>
> We also feel that the commercial nature of your project is at odds with
the
> "commercial free" policy of the Group.
>
> We are in agreement with earlier posts that you have violated Yahoo's
"Terms
> of Service," you have broken copyright laws and you have breached the
> privacy of the members whose e-mail addresses you have posted. (You are
> apparently unaware that the sender's e-mail address is not posted to the
> Group list that is open to the public but are only sent out with e-mailed
> copies which is only available to members of the Group.)
>
> Please remove all posts you have copied from the Yahoo! User Group,
"Digital
> B&W, The Print," from your site immediately. If you do not comply with
this
> request, your membership in the Group will be banned. We will also contact
> Yahoo to inform them of your breach of the Terms of Service and your
> copyright violations.
>
> This message will also be posted to the list and we will ask Group members
> to monitor your site for compliance.
>
> Martin Wesley
> Antonis Ricos
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

We don't claim other people's knowledge, we indeed credit 
every post to its author.

We try to create a new resource which we think can be very 
helpful. We work to organise, cross reference and better present
this information, and this work is clearly our added value
to the raw posts.

What people post to this group is already in a public archive
accessible to anyone, so I fail to see how I caused you any 
prejudice or loss. 

But we respect your choice and have removed all your posts 
from the Photo Binbook (due to caching, they may still 
appear for a couple days). We are in the process of removing 
all the posts from this group. Hopefully this will make it 
unnecessary to continue this discussion.

Best regards,

Gregory Popovitch
Binbooks Corporation

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Don't you see anything even slightly wrong in claiming and using 
other
> people's hard-earned knowledge? Would you scan books authored by 
other
> people and archive those? Don't you accept the principal of 
Intellectual
> Copyright? Would you like it if I knicked the coding of your 
database? I
> really don't understand.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Popovitch" <greg@g...>
> To: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> Cc: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 9:51 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook
> 
> 
> >
> > Hello Martin and Antonis,
> >
> > I don't believe you are correct when you state that we have
> > violated Yahoo's "Terms of Service". I also don't believe
> > that you have the authority to request that we remove posts
> > from anyone besides yourself.
> >
> > However, we have decided that we will indeed remove all posts
> > from this group while we investigate this further. Of course
> > the posts of individuals who request so will be permanently
> > removed.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Gregory Popovitch
> > Binbooks Corporation
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@e...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 1:17 PM
> > To: greg@g...; gregory@b...
> > Cc: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: The Photo Binbook
> >
> >
> > Gregory,
> >
> > After reviewing the binbook discussion we, as the Group's owners, 
have
> > reached a position on the matter.
> >
> > While our intent is to disseminate information about the many 
techniques
> of
> > producing a B&W print from a digital file, we take exception to 
your
> > approach.
> >
> > We feel that it would have been appropriate for you to have first
> approached
> > the Group owners about your project, then to have brought up the 
subject
> > with the entire Group, and finally obtained permission from each
> individual
> > to reproduce each individual post and to publish their e-mail 
address.
> >
> > We also feel that the commercial nature of your project is at 
odds with
> the
> > "commercial free" policy of the Group.
> >
> > We are in agreement with earlier posts that you have violated 
Yahoo's
> "Terms
> > of Service," you have broken copyright laws and you have breached 
the
> > privacy of the members whose e-mail addresses you have posted. 
(You are
> > apparently unaware that the sender's e-mail address is not posted 
to the
> > Group list that is open to the public but are only sent out with 
e-mailed
> > copies which is only available to members of the Group.)
> >
> > Please remove all posts you have copied from the Yahoo! User 
Group,
> "Digital
> > B&W, The Print," from your site immediately. If you do not comply 
with
> this
> > request, your membership in the Group will be banned. We will 
also contact
> > Yahoo to inform them of your breach of the Terms of Service and 
your
> > copyright violations.
> >
> > This message will also be posted to the list and we will ask 
Group members
> > to monitor your site for compliance.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> > Antonis Ricos
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

In a message dated 5/16/02 4:56:41 PM, greg@... writes:

>We don't claim other people's knowledge, we indeed credit 
>every post to its author.
>
>We try to create a new resource which we think can be very 
>helpful. We work to organise, cross reference and better present
>this information, and this work is clearly our added value
>to the raw posts.

That is very much a part of the problem. I an an author, editor, developer, and consultant. In those rolls I participate in many lists. On those lists I discuss many of the things than end up being valuable in my writing, my technical editing, my product development, and my consulting. By taking every post I have ever made, on all lists I have even participated on, and cleaning them up, organizing them, cross referencing them, and making them available to the public, you would very reasonably cause harm to my ability to earn a living in all those categories, by providing information that my clients could find without paying me for consulting time, by educating competitors on how to build better software, by showing others what to include or not include in an article or series I would otherwise be needed to write or edit. This would make you liable for damages to me. So the very act of "adding value" to my writings would be part the problem.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

Greg, I'm curious to understand you - so having made my point, I ask this
for clarification only... Do you consider it ok to raid photonet of it's
photos and use those?
I have two cases of copyright infringement about to go to court in the UK,
one for photos one for academic research (I only discobvered them by chance
on
my last day in the UK this trip in Borders of all places) before starting
proceedings I approached the people involved to be told almost the same
thing 'we are a start up and can't afford to pay etc etc' I just don't
understand the mindset of people who appropriate other folk's content

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "greg_pop" <greg@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook


> We don't claim other people's knowledge, we indeed credit
> every post to its author.
>
> We try to create a new resource which we think can be very
> helpful. We work to organise, cross reference and better present
> this information, and this work is clearly our added value
> to the raw posts.
>
> What people post to this group is already in a public archive
> accessible to anyone, so I fail to see how I caused you any
> prejudice or loss.
>
> But we respect your choice and have removed all your posts
> from the Photo Binbook (due to caching, they may still
> appear for a couple days). We are in the process of removing
> all the posts from this group. Hopefully this will make it
> unnecessary to continue this discussion.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gregory Popovitch
> Binbooks Corporation
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > Don't you see anything even slightly wrong in claiming and using
> other
> > people's hard-earned knowledge? Would you scan books authored by
> other
> > people and archive those? Don't you accept the principal of
> Intellectual
> > Copyright? Would you like it if I knicked the coding of your
> database? I
> > really don't understand.
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Popovitch" <greg@g...>
> > To: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> > Cc: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 9:51 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Hello Martin and Antonis,
> > >
> > > I don't believe you are correct when you state that we have
> > > violated Yahoo's "Terms of Service". I also don't believe
> > > that you have the authority to request that we remove posts
> > > from anyone besides yourself.
> > >
> > > However, we have decided that we will indeed remove all posts
> > > from this group while we investigate this further. Of course
> > > the posts of individuals who request so will be permanently
> > > removed.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Gregory Popovitch
> > > Binbooks Corporation
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@e...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 1:17 PM
> > > To: greg@g...; gregory@b...
> > > Cc: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > > Subject: The Photo Binbook
> > >
> > >
> > > Gregory,
> > >
> > > After reviewing the binbook discussion we, as the Group's owners,
> have
> > > reached a position on the matter.
> > >
> > > While our intent is to disseminate information about the many
> techniques
> > of
> > > producing a B&W print from a digital file, we take exception to
> your
> > > approach.
> > >
> > > We feel that it would have been appropriate for you to have first
> > approached
> > > the Group owners about your project, then to have brought up the
> subject
> > > with the entire Group, and finally obtained permission from each
> > individual
> > > to reproduce each individual post and to publish their e-mail
> address.
> > >
> > > We also feel that the commercial nature of your project is at
> odds with
> > the
> > > "commercial free" policy of the Group.
> > >
> > > We are in agreement with earlier posts that you have violated
> Yahoo's
> > "Terms
> > > of Service," you have broken copyright laws and you have breached
> the
> > > privacy of the members whose e-mail addresses you have posted.
> (You are
> > > apparently unaware that the sender's e-mail address is not posted
> to the
> > > Group list that is open to the public but are only sent out with
> e-mailed
> > > copies which is only available to members of the Group.)
> > >
> > > Please remove all posts you have copied from the Yahoo! User
> Group,
> > "Digital
> > > B&W, The Print," from your site immediately. If you do not comply
> with
> > this
> > > request, your membership in the Group will be banned. We will
> also contact
> > > Yahoo to inform them of your breach of the Terms of Service and
> your
> > > copyright violations.
> > >
> > > This message will also be posted to the list and we will ask
> Group members
> > > to monitor your site for compliance.
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > > Antonis Ricos
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Popovitch" <greg@...>
To: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
Cc: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 12:51 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook


>
> Hello Martin and Antonis,
>
> I don't believe you are correct when you state that we have
> violated Yahoo's "Terms of Service". I also don't believe
> that you have the authority to request that we remove posts
> from anyone besides yourself.

Greg,

I didn't know you needed "authority" to make a "request." <G>

Specifically I believe you are in violation of Article 10 of the TOS:

"10. NO RESALE OF SERVICE
You agree not to reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, resell or exploit for any
commercial purposes, any portion of the Service, use of the Service, or
access to the Service."
Which you agreed to by getting a Yahoo account and joining the Group.
>
> However, we have decided that we will indeed remove all posts
> from this group while we investigate this further. Of course
> the posts of individuals who request so will be permanently
> removed.

Thank you for your decision to remove the posts from this list.

Martin Wesley

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 1:17 PM
> To: greg@...; gregory@...
> Cc: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: The Photo Binbook
>
>
> Gregory,
>
> After reviewing the binbook discussion we, as the Group's owners, have
> reached a position on the matter.
>
> While our intent is to disseminate information about the many techniques
of
> producing a B&W print from a digital file, we take exception to your
> approach.
>
> We feel that it would have been appropriate for you to have first
approached
> the Group owners about your project, then to have brought up the subject
> with the entire Group, and finally obtained permission from each
individual
> to reproduce each individual post and to publish their e-mail address.
>
> We also feel that the commercial nature of your project is at odds with
the
> "commercial free" policy of the Group.
>
> We are in agreement with earlier posts that you have violated Yahoo's
"Terms
> of Service," you have broken copyright laws and you have breached the
> privacy of the members whose e-mail addresses you have posted. (You are
> apparently unaware that the sender's e-mail address is not posted to the
> Group list that is open to the public but are only sent out with e-mailed
> copies which is only available to members of the Group.)
>
> Please remove all posts you have copied from the Yahoo! User Group,
"Digital
> B&W, The Print," from your site immediately. If you do not comply with
this
> request, your membership in the Group will be banned. We will also contact
> Yahoo to inform them of your breach of the Terms of Service and your
> copyright violations.
>
> This message will also be posted to the list and we will ask Group members
> to monitor your site for compliance.
>
> Martin Wesley
> Antonis Ricos
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Well, let's not discuss this forever. We were excited about 
what we had achieved and we truely were expecting a very 
favorable response from this group. We thought that the 
conversations featured in the Photo Binbook really captured the 
essence of what made this group great. Needless to say the last
couple of days were very disheartening for us. We really can't
see why the aggregation of public knowledge and postings 
would be detrimental to anyone. By that rationale Google groups 
should be outlawed as well! And if this was meant to be a private 
society who don't want to share information with the outside, 
why make the archives public? 

I personally thought that this group was the greatest place, where 
knowledgable people were selflessly sharing information for 
the benefit of all. I still think this is the case for most of 
the 1495 members, but the response we got from a handfull of people
is what is we need to deal with.

I'll continue reading this group, because I enjoy it, but not
regularly so I may not answer further questions timely. I want 
to express my sincere gratefulness to those of you who supported
our project, to those who said nothing and even to those who objected 
because I want to believe that everyone is sincere. 

Best regards,

Gregory Popovitch
Binbooks Corporation

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Popovitch" <greg@g...>
> To: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> Cc: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 12:51 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook
> 
> 
> >
> > Hello Martin and Antonis,
> >
> > I don't believe you are correct when you state that we have
> > violated Yahoo's "Terms of Service". I also don't believe
> > that you have the authority to request that we remove posts
> > from anyone besides yourself.
> 
> Greg,
> 
> I didn't know you needed "authority" to make a "request." <G>
> 
> Specifically I believe you are in violation of Article 10 of the 
TOS:
> 
> "10. NO RESALE OF SERVICE
> You agree not to reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, resell or 
exploit for any
> commercial purposes, any portion of the Service, use of the 
Service, or
> access to the Service."
> Which you agreed to by getting a Yahoo account and joining the 
Group.
> >
> > However, we have decided that we will indeed remove all posts
> > from this group while we investigate this further. Of course
> > the posts of individuals who request so will be permanently
> > removed.
> 
> Thank you for your decision to remove the posts from this list.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@e...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 1:17 PM
> > To: greg@g...; gregory@b...
> > Cc: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: The Photo Binbook
> >
> >
> > Gregory,
> >
> > After reviewing the binbook discussion we, as the Group's owners, 
have
> > reached a position on the matter.
> >
> > While our intent is to disseminate information about the many 
techniques
> of
> > producing a B&W print from a digital file, we take exception to 
your
> > approach.
> >
> > We feel that it would have been appropriate for you to have first
> approached
> > the Group owners about your project, then to have brought up the 
subject
> > with the entire Group, and finally obtained permission from each
> individual
> > to reproduce each individual post and to publish their e-mail 
address.
> >
> > We also feel that the commercial nature of your project is at 
odds with
> the
> > "commercial free" policy of the Group.
> >
> > We are in agreement with earlier posts that you have violated 
Yahoo's
> "Terms
> > of Service," you have broken copyright laws and you have breached 
the
> > privacy of the members whose e-mail addresses you have posted. 
(You are
> > apparently unaware that the sender's e-mail address is not posted 
to the
> > Group list that is open to the public but are only sent out with 
e-mailed
> > copies which is only available to members of the Group.)
> >
> > Please remove all posts you have copied from the Yahoo! User 
Group,
> "Digital
> > B&W, The Print," from your site immediately. If you do not comply 
with
> this
> > request, your membership in the Group will be banned. We will 
also contact
> > Yahoo to inform them of your breach of the Terms of Service and 
your
> > copyright violations.
> >
> > This message will also be posted to the list and we will ask 
Group members
> > to monitor your site for compliance.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> > Antonis Ricos
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Julian wrote:
> Don't you see anything even slightly wrong in claiming and using other
> people's hard-earned knowledge? Would you scan books authored by other
> people and archive those? Don't you accept the principal of Intellectual
> Copyright? Would you like it if I knicked the coding of your database? I
> really don't understand.

Neither do I Julian.  One of the many things he is failing to realize is
that the posts, while in a public archive on yahoo, do not display our email
addresses. His site does. That's just dead wrong.  The only way to have
access to our email addresses is if you are a member of said group and get
the post thru email, that is not a public archive. period.

Carolyn

Please remove any and all posts from me from your site.

Scott Hendershot

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Popovitch" <greg@...>
To: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
Cc: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 3:51 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook


>
> Hello Martin and Antonis,
>
> I don't believe you are correct when you state that we have
> violated Yahoo's "Terms of Service". I also don't believe
> that you have the authority to request that we remove posts
> from anyone besides yourself.
>
> However, we have decided that we will indeed remove all posts
> from this group while we investigate this further. Of course
> the posts of individuals who request so will be permanently
> removed.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gregory Popovitch
> Binbooks Corporation
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 1:17 PM
> To: greg@...; gregory@...
> Cc: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: The Photo Binbook
>
>
> Gregory,
>
> After reviewing the binbook discussion we, as the Group's owners, have
> reached a position on the matter.
>
> While our intent is to disseminate information about the many techniques
of
> producing a B&W print from a digital file, we take exception to your
> approach.
>
> We feel that it would have been appropriate for you to have first
approached
> the Group owners about your project, then to have brought up the subject
> with the entire Group, and finally obtained permission from each
individual
> to reproduce each individual post and to publish their e-mail address.
>
> We also feel that the commercial nature of your project is at odds with
the
> "commercial free" policy of the Group.
>
> We are in agreement with earlier posts that you have violated Yahoo's
"Terms
> of Service," you have broken copyright laws and you have breached the
> privacy of the members whose e-mail addresses you have posted. (You are
> apparently unaware that the sender's e-mail address is not posted to the
> Group list that is open to the public but are only sent out with e-mailed
> copies which is only available to members of the Group.)
>
> Please remove all posts you have copied from the Yahoo! User Group,
"Digital
> B&W, The Print," from your site immediately. If you do not comply with
this
> request, your membership in the Group will be banned. We will also contact
> Yahoo to inform them of your breach of the Terms of Service and your
> copyright violations.
>
> This message will also be posted to the list and we will ask Group members
> to monitor your site for compliance.
>
> Martin Wesley
> Antonis Ricos
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Greg, 

I applaud your desire to share info.  But I think you went about it in the wrong manner.  I did a quick look at your site and was disturbed to see no mention of the origins of the quotes/messages.  In other words, it appears by casual visit that all of those messages and quotes were submitted to your site by the "contributors."  That certainly was not the case.  

I don't know if any of my threads were on your site...but it gave me a weird feeling thinking they might be...and I don't really know where you are going with your site.  

So...while I am one to share all the time...that "weird feeling" is probably just a little bit of what is turning people away from your approach/site.  

Sincerely, 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: greg_pop 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 5:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook



  Well, let's not discuss this forever. We were excited about 
  what we had achieved and we truely were expecting a very 
  favorable response from this group. We thought that the 
  conversations featured in the Photo Binbook really captured the 
  essence of what made this group great. Needless to say the last
  couple of days were very disheartening for us. We really can't
  see why the aggregation of public knowledge and postings 
  would be detrimental to anyone. By that rationale Google groups 
  should be outlawed as well! And if this was meant to be a private 
  society who don't want to share information with the outside, 
  why make the archives public? 

  I personally thought that this group was the greatest place, where 
  knowledgable people were selflessly sharing information for 
  the benefit of all. I still think this is the case for most of 
  the 1495 members, but the response we got from a handfull of people
  is what is we need to deal with.

  I'll continue reading this group, because I enjoy it, but not
  regularly so I may not answer further questions timely. I want 
  to express my sincere gratefulness to those of you who supported
  our project, to those who said nothing and even to those who objected 
  because I want to believe that everyone is sincere. 

  Best regards,

  Gregory Popovitch
  Binbooks Corporation

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
  <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Gregory Popovitch" <greg@g...>
  > To: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
  > Cc: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
  > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 12:51 PM
  > Subject: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook
  > 
  > 
  > >
  > > Hello Martin and Antonis,
  > >
  > > I don't believe you are correct when you state that we have
  > > violated Yahoo's "Terms of Service". I also don't believe
  > > that you have the authority to request that we remove posts
  > > from anyone besides yourself.
  > 
  > Greg,
  > 
  > I didn't know you needed "authority" to make a "request." <G>
  > 
  > Specifically I believe you are in violation of Article 10 of the 
  TOS:
  > 
  > "10. NO RESALE OF SERVICE
  > You agree not to reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, resell or 
  exploit for any
  > commercial purposes, any portion of the Service, use of the 
  Service, or
  > access to the Service."
  > Which you agreed to by getting a Yahoo account and joining the 
  Group.
  > >
  > > However, we have decided that we will indeed remove all posts
  > > from this group while we investigate this further. Of course
  > > the posts of individuals who request so will be permanently
  > > removed.
  > 
  > Thank you for your decision to remove the posts from this list.
  > 
  > Martin Wesley
  > 
  > >
  > > -----Original Message-----
  > > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@e...]
  > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 1:17 PM
  > > To: greg@g...; gregory@b...
  > > Cc: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
  > > Subject: The Photo Binbook
  > >
  > >
  > > Gregory,
  > >
  > > After reviewing the binbook discussion we, as the Group's owners, 
  have
  > > reached a position on the matter.
  > >
  > > While our intent is to disseminate information about the many 
  techniques
  > of
  > > producing a B&W print from a digital file, we take exception to 
  your
  > > approach.
  > >
  > > We feel that it would have been appropriate for you to have first
  > approached
  > > the Group owners about your project, then to have brought up the 
  subject
  > > with the entire Group, and finally obtained permission from each
  > individual
  > > to reproduce each individual post and to publish their e-mail 
  address.
  > >
  > > We also feel that the commercial nature of your project is at 
  odds with
  > the
  > > "commercial free" policy of the Group.
  > >
  > > We are in agreement with earlier posts that you have violated 
  Yahoo's
  > "Terms
  > > of Service," you have broken copyright laws and you have breached 
  the
  > > privacy of the members whose e-mail addresses you have posted. 
  (You are
  > > apparently unaware that the sender's e-mail address is not posted 
  to the
  > > Group list that is open to the public but are only sent out with 
  e-mailed
  > > copies which is only available to members of the Group.)
  > >
  > > Please remove all posts you have copied from the Yahoo! User 
  Group,
  > "Digital
  > > B&W, The Print," from your site immediately. If you do not comply 
  with
  > this
  > > request, your membership in the Group will be banned. We will 
  also contact
  > > Yahoo to inform them of your breach of the Terms of Service and 
  your
  > > copyright violations.
  > >
  > > This message will also be posted to the list and we will ask 
  Group members
  > > to monitor your site for compliance.
  > >
  > > Martin Wesley
  > > Antonis Ricos
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
  Polls and
  > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  > >
  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > >
  > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > > - Include your full name with your message.
  > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
  messages to keep
  > them short.
  > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
  header.
  > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  > "flames."
  > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
  various
  > resources on the homepage.
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  > >
  > >


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:01 PM 5/16/02 +0000, greg_pop wrote:
>I personally thought that this group was the greatest place, where
>knowledgable people were selflessly sharing information for
>the benefit of all. I still think this is the case for most of
>the 1495 members, but the response we got from a handfull of people
>is what is we need to deal with.
Mr. Popovitch,
I've been one of those folks on the mail list; DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint 
who didn't protest your
feigned innocence in ripping off the contents of the forum.

Just so it is perfectly clear to you  -
I do not want any of my contributions to this yahoo group
to show up on your binbooks endeavor.

It is people like you that make it necessary for us to employ
as many lawyers as we do.

Seriously yours,
JimD

I'm glad Martin and Antonis took care of this for us. I resented what 
Greg Popovitch was doing as much as any subscriber who posted seemed 
to. Since he suggested that the few who complained did not represent 
the subscribers generally, I thought I should say so, especially 
since he seems determined to continue to abuse us if he can find a 
loophole that arguably permits him to do it.

Sam

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gregory Popovitch" <greg@...>
>To: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
>Cc: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 12:51 PM
>Subject: [Digital BW] RE: The Photo Binbook
>
>
> >
> > Hello Martin and Antonis,
> >
> > I don't believe you are correct when you state that we have
> > violated Yahoo's "Terms of Service". I also don't believe
> > that you have the authority to request that we remove posts
> > from anyone besides yourself.
>
>Greg,
>
>I didn't know you needed "authority" to make a "request." <G>
>
>Specifically I believe you are in violation of Article 10 of the TOS:
>
>"10. NO RESALE OF SERVICE
>You agree not to reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, resell or exploit for any
>commercial purposes, any portion of the Service, use of the Service, or
>access to the Service."
>Which you agreed to by getting a Yahoo account and joining the Group.
> >
> > However, we have decided that we will indeed remove all posts
> > from this group while we investigate this further. Of course
> > the posts of individuals who request so will be permanently
> > removed.
>
>Thank you for your decision to remove the posts from this list.
>
>Martin Wesley