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PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-08 by Martin Wesley

With the original Piezo inks I and others have noted that the Epson driver with the same ink produces a deeper black than the Piezo drive. I rechecked this with the new Piezo tone inks. I printed a 1" 100% black square on the same piece of Photo Rag paper. First with the Piezo driver and then with the MIS-VM workflow and a RGB separation curve through the Epson Driver. After letting the printout sit for a couple of days (it does dry down by the way) I got the following measurements checking all four corners and the center of each square:

Piezo driver: 1.80 to 1.82
Epson driver: 1.89 to 1.91

To see if there was still low end separation with Epson driver I printed out a step wedge that includes 95% through 100% patches once again using the MIS-VM workflow. These lower tones gave the following readings:

100% - 1.89 - 190
99% - 1.87 - 1.88
98% - 1.85 - 1.86
97% - 1.80
96% - 1.78
95% - 1.72

This is not perfectly linear but the workflow used is not matched to the inks.

A Dmax of 1.9 is really quite amazing for a matte paper and brings the matte inkjet prints very close to silver print range.

It will be interesting to see if the PiezoTone black ink can be used to replace the standard black in the MIS-VM and MIS-FS sets. The black in the MIS-VM set has a Dmax of 1.7 to give you the comparison.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-09 by Jerry Olson

Hi Martin, 

How are you measuring The deepest black an ink can be?

What is the blackest ink you've yet found that can be used with the VM MIS
inkset?  I use Generations Enhanced black, as I've not found anything
blacker, yet.

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-09 by Robert Morrison

Very interesting Martin, however I would be surprised if you can maintain
the dmax when you linearize the 80-100% section of the curve.  Invariably
any adjustment up in this region seems to bring dmax down.  I've been
working with an experimental 3rd party rip.  I'm capable of getting 1.88
with the Piezotones and photorag...but when I linearize the shadow region
the dmax comes down to 1.84.  Remember Jon's focus with the piezo driver is
to have a driver that can really show off shadow detail...I've studied many
of his profiles and this is almost always the characteristic.  From my
experience this will always limit dmax somewhat...but it give you room to
show off the 90-100% shadow detail...its a tradeoff in my experience.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 6/7/02 10:06 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> With the original Piezo inks I and others have noted that the Epson driver
> with the same ink produces a deeper black than the Piezo drive. I rechecked
> this with the new Piezo tone inks. I printed a 1" 100% black square on the
> same piece of Photo Rag paper. First with the Piezo driver and then with the
> MIS-VM workflow and a RGB separation curve through the Epson Driver. After
> letting the printout sit for a couple of days (it does dry down by the way) I
> got the following measurements checking all four corners and the center of
> each square:
> 
> Piezo driver: 1.80 to 1.82
> Epson driver: 1.89 to 1.91
> 
> To see if there was still low end separation with Epson driver I printed out a
> step wedge that includes 95% through 100% patches once again using the MIS-VM
> workflow. These lower tones gave the following readings:
> 
> 100% - 1.89 - 190
> 99% - 1.87 - 1.88
> 98% - 1.85 - 1.86
> 97% - 1.80
> 96% - 1.78
> 95% - 1.72
> 
> This is not perfectly linear but the workflow used is not matched to the inks.
> 
> A Dmax of 1.9 is really quite amazing for a matte paper and brings the matte
> inkjet prints very close to silver print range.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the PiezoTone black ink can be used to
> replace the standard black in the MIS-VM and MIS-FS sets. The black in the
> MIS-VM set has a Dmax of 1.7 to give you the comparison.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-10 by Martin Wesley

Robert,

I do agree with your assessment but the prospect of using the new PiezoTone
black with the current MIS sets is still appealing. Since we would be
pushing the Dmax up from 1.7 to 1.9 we should still see some improvement
even if we have to give some density back in order to keep things linear.

The other issue is that we are reaching a level where it becomes harder and
harder for the human eye to distinguish differences in tone. I find the
visible difference between 1.8 and 1.9 to be pretty small myself but I can
clearly see the difference between 1.7 and 1.9. At the white end of the
scale the difference between 0.08 and 0.06 is quite noticeable.

Martin

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax


> Very interesting Martin, however I would be surprised if you can maintain
> the dmax when you linearize the 80-100% section of the curve.  Invariably
> any adjustment up in this region seems to bring dmax down.  I've been
> working with an experimental 3rd party rip.  I'm capable of getting 1.88
> with the Piezotones and photorag...but when I linearize the shadow region
> the dmax comes down to 1.84.  Remember Jon's focus with the piezo driver
is
> to have a driver that can really show off shadow detail...I've studied
many
> of his profiles and this is almost always the characteristic.  From my
> experience this will always limit dmax somewhat...but it give you room to
> show off the 90-100% shadow detail...its a tradeoff in my experience.
>
> Robert
>
>
> On 6/7/02 10:06 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
> > With the original Piezo inks I and others have noted that the Epson
driver
> > with the same ink produces a deeper black than the Piezo drive. I
rechecked
> > this with the new Piezo tone inks. I printed a 1" 100% black square on
the
> > same piece of Photo Rag paper. First with the Piezo driver and then with
the
> > MIS-VM workflow and a RGB separation curve through the Epson Driver.
After
> > letting the printout sit for a couple of days (it does dry down by the
way) I
> > got the following measurements checking all four corners and the center
of
> > each square:
> >
> > Piezo driver: 1.80 to 1.82
> > Epson driver: 1.89 to 1.91
> >
> > To see if there was still low end separation with Epson driver I printed
out a
> > step wedge that includes 95% through 100% patches once again using the
MIS-VM
> > workflow. These lower tones gave the following readings:
> >
> > 100% - 1.89 - 190
> > 99% - 1.87 - 1.88
> > 98% - 1.85 - 1.86
> > 97% - 1.80
> > 96% - 1.78
> > 95% - 1.72
> >
> > This is not perfectly linear but the workflow used is not matched to the
inks.
> >
> > A Dmax of 1.9 is really quite amazing for a matte paper and brings the
matte
> > inkjet prints very close to silver print range.
> >
> > It will be interesting to see if the PiezoTone black ink can be used to
> > replace the standard black in the MIS-VM and MIS-FS sets. The black in
the
> > MIS-VM set has a Dmax of 1.7 to give you the comparison.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-10 by Robert Morrison

On 6/9/02 7:00 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> I do agree with your assessment but the prospect of using the new PiezoTone
> black with the current MIS sets is still appealing. Since we would be
> pushing the Dmax up from 1.7 to 1.9 we should still see some improvement
> even if we have to give some density back in order to keep things linear.

I can see a reason to consider the new Piezotone black with VM...but I
really don't see why anyone would want to use the Piezotone black with
FS...why not just go with the Piezotones and get the color stability.
 
> The other issue is that we are reaching a level where it becomes harder and
> harder for the human eye to distinguish differences in tone. I find the
> visible difference between 1.8 and 1.9 to be pretty small myself but I can
> clearly see the difference between 1.7 and 1.9. At the white end of the
> scale the difference between 0.08 and 0.06 is quite noticeable.

I totally agree.  The difference between about 1.65 (what I get with FS
blacks) and 1.85 is huge...but I agree that the difference between 1.8 and
1.9 is much less noticeable.  I think it would be really interesting to try
the Piezotone black in color ink sets as well...I believe that Todd has been
using the old Cone black with the rest of Gen4 with good success...now the
Piezotone black would be the obvious candidate.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax
> 
> 
>> Very interesting Martin, however I would be surprised if you can maintain
>> the dmax when you linearize the 80-100% section of the curve.  Invariably
>> any adjustment up in this region seems to bring dmax down.  I've been
>> working with an experimental 3rd party rip.  I'm capable of getting 1.88
>> with the Piezotones and photorag...but when I linearize the shadow region
>> the dmax comes down to 1.84.  Remember Jon's focus with the piezo driver
> is
>> to have a driver that can really show off shadow detail...I've studied
> many
>> of his profiles and this is almost always the characteristic.  From my
>> experience this will always limit dmax somewhat...but it give you room to
>> show off the 90-100% shadow detail...its a tradeoff in my experience.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/7/02 10:06 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>> 
>>> With the original Piezo inks I and others have noted that the Epson
> driver
>>> with the same ink produces a deeper black than the Piezo drive. I
> rechecked
>>> this with the new Piezo tone inks. I printed a 1" 100% black square on
> the
>>> same piece of Photo Rag paper. First with the Piezo driver and then with
> the
>>> MIS-VM workflow and a RGB separation curve through the Epson Driver.
> After
>>> letting the printout sit for a couple of days (it does dry down by the
> way) I
>>> got the following measurements checking all four corners and the center
> of
>>> each square:
>>> 
>>> Piezo driver: 1.80 to 1.82
>>> Epson driver: 1.89 to 1.91
>>> 
>>> To see if there was still low end separation with Epson driver I printed
> out a
>>> step wedge that includes 95% through 100% patches once again using the
> MIS-VM
>>> workflow. These lower tones gave the following readings:
>>> 
>>> 100% - 1.89 - 190
>>> 99% - 1.87 - 1.88
>>> 98% - 1.85 - 1.86
>>> 97% - 1.80
>>> 96% - 1.78
>>> 95% - 1.72
>>> 
>>> This is not perfectly linear but the workflow used is not matched to the
> inks.
>>> 
>>> A Dmax of 1.9 is really quite amazing for a matte paper and brings the
> matte
>>> inkjet prints very close to silver print range.
>>> 
>>> It will be interesting to see if the PiezoTone black ink can be used to
>>> replace the standard black in the MIS-VM and MIS-FS sets. The black in
> the
>>> MIS-VM set has a Dmax of 1.7 to give you the comparison.
>>> 
>>> Martin Wesley
>>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>> "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-10 by sherer_stan

I am very interested in trying the piezotone black along with the MIS
FS inks. Please post your results if you do try this. 
My two concerns are:
1. Will the Cone profiles still be accurate?
2. Stability. Jon Cone warns about mixing ink bases. Does anyone know
if the Piezotone and MIS ink bases are compatible?

I'm more concerned about issue #1.


Thanks,
Stan 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> I do agree with your assessment but the prospect of using the new
PiezoTone
> black with the current MIS sets is still appealing. Since we would be
> pushing the Dmax up from 1.7 to 1.9 we should still see some improvement
> even if we have to give some density back in order to keep things
linear.
> 
> The other issue is that we are reaching a level where it becomes
harder and
> harder for the human eye to distinguish differences in tone. I find the
> visible difference between 1.8 and 1.9 to be pretty small myself but
I can
> clearly see the difference between 1.7 and 1.9. At the white end of the
> scale the difference between 0.08 and 0.06 is quite noticeable.
> 
> Martin
> 




> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@p...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax
> 
> 
> > Very interesting Martin, however I would be surprised if you can
maintain
> > the dmax when you linearize the 80-100% section of the curve. 
Invariably
> > any adjustment up in this region seems to bring dmax down.  I've been
> > working with an experimental 3rd party rip.  I'm capable of
getting 1.88
> > with the Piezotones and photorag...but when I linearize the shadow
region
> > the dmax comes down to 1.84.  Remember Jon's focus with the piezo
driver
> is
> > to have a driver that can really show off shadow detail...I've studied
> many
> > of his profiles and this is almost always the characteristic.  From my
> > experience this will always limit dmax somewhat...but it give you
room to
> > show off the 90-100% shadow detail...its a tradeoff in my experience.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > On 6/7/02 10:06 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
> > > With the original Piezo inks I and others have noted that the Epson
> driver
> > > with the same ink produces a deeper black than the Piezo drive. I
> rechecked
> > > this with the new Piezo tone inks. I printed a 1" 100% black
square on
> the
> > > same piece of Photo Rag paper. First with the Piezo driver and
then with
> the
> > > MIS-VM workflow and a RGB separation curve through the Epson Driver.
> After
> > > letting the printout sit for a couple of days (it does dry down
by the
> way) I
> > > got the following measurements checking all four corners and the
center
> of
> > > each square:
> > >
> > > Piezo driver: 1.80 to 1.82
> > > Epson driver: 1.89 to 1.91
> > >
> > > To see if there was still low end separation with Epson driver I
printed
> out a
> > > step wedge that includes 95% through 100% patches once again
using the
> MIS-VM
> > > workflow. These lower tones gave the following readings:
> > >
> > > 100% - 1.89 - 190
> > > 99% - 1.87 - 1.88
> > > 98% - 1.85 - 1.86
> > > 97% - 1.80
> > > 96% - 1.78
> > > 95% - 1.72
> > >
> > > This is not perfectly linear but the workflow used is not
matched to the
> inks.
> > >
> > > A Dmax of 1.9 is really quite amazing for a matte paper and
brings the
> matte
> > > inkjet prints very close to silver print range.
> > >
> > > It will be interesting to see if the PiezoTone black ink can be
used to
> > > replace the standard black in the MIS-VM and MIS-FS sets. The
black in
> the
> > > MIS-VM set has a Dmax of 1.7 to give you the comparison.
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
Polls and
> other
> > > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
messages to
> keep
> > > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > > "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >
> >
> >

RE: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-10 by Paul Roark

I have a PiezoTone black-ink-only test strip (from Martin) and MIS VM/FS-K
test strip, both on EAM, in the fader now.  We'll have our first look (one
hundred hour mark) at how good the new black ink is at the end of this week.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-10 by Robert Morrison

Paul, What was the initial dmax difference for your test strips?  It would
be great to see a complete test strip faded.  One of the main advantages of
the Piezotones, according to Cone, is there lack of color shift and
non-warming on fade...we won't really get a feel for this unless we see the
whole ink set.  I can print out your step wedge if you like.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 6/10/02 9:09 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> I have a PiezoTone black-ink-only test strip (from Martin) and MIS VM/FS-K
> test strip, both on EAM, in the fader now.  We'll have our first look (one
> hundred hour mark) at how good the new black ink is at the end of this week.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-10 by Paul Roark

Robert,

>... What was the initial dmax difference for your test strips?

The PiezoTone/Piezo driver 100% black on EAM was 1.73.

The VM/FS-K/Epson driver 100% black on EAM was 1.67.

This is a visible difference but not dramatic.

>It would be great to see a complete test strip faded.
>One of the main advantages of
>the Piezotones, according to Cone, is there lack of color shift and
>non-warming on fade...we won't really get a feel for this
>unless we see the whole ink set.
>I can print out your step wedge if you like.

I have some full-inkset PiezoTone test strips also.  However, I was most
eager to see if Jon had found a new and superior black ink or whether the
new K is just Generations Enhanced black.  We might be able to tell that by
Friday.

The non-warming aspect will be interesting also, however, this is not
something that is new for me.  It'll be curious to see how it compares to
FS-N, which was the first non-warming quad, as far as I know.  Standard FS
does warm, although less and slower than the old Piezo ink.  It may be that
MIS will want a non-warming version of it's standard FS if the PiezoTone is
clearly better.

I'll test the full set as soon as possible.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_______________________________________________


On 6/10/02 9:09 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> I have a PiezoTone black-ink-only test strip (from Martin) and MIS VM/FS-K
> test strip, both on EAM, in the fader now.  We'll have our first look (one
> hundred hour mark) at how good the new black ink is at the end of this
week.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-11 by Todd Flashner

> I have some full-inkset PiezoTone test strips also.  However, I was most
> eager to see if Jon had found a new and superior black ink or whether the
> new K is just Generations Enhanced black.  We might be able to tell that by
> Friday.


I asked Jon on the piezo list if the Piezotones were pure pigments or
contained dyes, and whether they would outlast the original Piezo inks in an
absolute sense (fading vs warming) but got no reply. Do any of you beta
users know anything about the makeup of these inks?

I'd doubt it's Gen enhanced purely because Jon implies Piezotones are
chemically incompatible with the old inks while we know Gen inks are not.
Though, now that I think about it, he really just recommended flushing the
lines and changing carts, but that could surely be for reasons of
consistency rather than compatibility...

Well, I certainly hope it's an advancement, new inks have been hitting the
market. OTOH, we do seem to see that most brands are ultimately quite common
to each other. Speaking of which, could they possibly be based on the Epson
Ultrachrome K?

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-11 by johnvphoto

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> wrote:
> Do any of you beta
> users know anything about the makeup of these inks?

HI Todd,

From what we were told there are no dyes in this inkset! RIT is 
doing a longevity test. In terms of fading don't know how the 
PiezoTone compares to the original inks.

Best,

John V.

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-11 by Jerry Olson

I think I read in Cone's newsletter that piezotone inks and regular
piezo ink are NOT compatible.

Jerry

sherer_stan wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I am very interested in trying the piezotone black along with the MIS
> FS inks. Please post your results if you do try this.
> My two concerns are:
> 1. Will the Cone profiles still be accurate?
> 2. Stability. Jon Cone warns about mixing ink bases. Does anyone know
> if the Piezotone and MIS ink bases are compatible?
> 
> I'm more concerned about issue #1.
> 
> Thanks,
> Stan
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Robert,
> >
> > I do agree with your assessment but the prospect of using the new
> PiezoTone
> > black with the current MIS sets is still appealing. Since we would be
> > pushing the Dmax up from 1.7 to 1.9 we should still see some improvement
> > even if we have to give some density back in order to keep things
> linear.
> >
> > The other issue is that we are reaching a level where it becomes
> harder and
> > harder for the human eye to distinguish differences in tone. I find the
> > visible difference between 1.8 and 1.9 to be pretty small myself but
> I can
> > clearly see the difference between 1.7 and 1.9. At the white end of the
> > scale the difference between 0.08 and 0.06 is quite noticeable.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> 
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@p...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:52 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax
> >
> >
> > > Very interesting Martin, however I would be surprised if you can
> maintain
> > > the dmax when you linearize the 80-100% section of the curve.
> Invariably
> > > any adjustment up in this region seems to bring dmax down.  I've been
> > > working with an experimental 3rd party rip.  I'm capable of
> getting 1.88
> > > with the Piezotones and photorag...but when I linearize the shadow
> region
> > > the dmax comes down to 1.84.  Remember Jon's focus with the piezo
> driver
> > is
> > > to have a driver that can really show off shadow detail...I've studied
> > many
> > > of his profiles and this is almost always the characteristic.  From my
> > > experience this will always limit dmax somewhat...but it give you
> room to
> > > show off the 90-100% shadow detail...its a tradeoff in my experience.
> > >
> > > Robert
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/7/02 10:06 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > With the original Piezo inks I and others have noted that the Epson
> > driver
> > > > with the same ink produces a deeper black than the Piezo drive. I
> > rechecked
> > > > this with the new Piezo tone inks. I printed a 1" 100% black
> square on
> > the
> > > > same piece of Photo Rag paper. First with the Piezo driver and
> then with
> > the
> > > > MIS-VM workflow and a RGB separation curve through the Epson Driver.
> > After
> > > > letting the printout sit for a couple of days (it does dry down
> by the
> > way) I
> > > > got the following measurements checking all four corners and the
> center
> > of
> > > > each square:
> > > >
> > > > Piezo driver: 1.80 to 1.82
> > > > Epson driver: 1.89 to 1.91
> > > >
> > > > To see if there was still low end separation with Epson driver I
> printed
> > out a
> > > > step wedge that includes 95% through 100% patches once again
> using the
> > MIS-VM
> > > > workflow. These lower tones gave the following readings:
> > > >
> > > > 100% - 1.89 - 190
> > > > 99% - 1.87 - 1.88
> > > > 98% - 1.85 - 1.86
> > > > 97% - 1.80
> > > > 96% - 1.78
> > > > 95% - 1.72
> > > >
> > > > This is not perfectly linear but the workflow used is not
> matched to the
> > inks.
> > > >
> > > > A Dmax of 1.9 is really quite amazing for a matte paper and
> brings the
> > matte
> > > > inkjet prints very close to silver print range.
> > > >
> > > > It will be interesting to see if the PiezoTone black ink can be
> used to
> > > > replace the standard black in the MIS-VM and MIS-FS sets. The
> black in
> > the
> > > > MIS-VM set has a Dmax of 1.7 to give you the comparison.
> > > >
> > > > Martin Wesley
> > > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other
> > > > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > >
> > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to
> > keep
> > > > them short.
> > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > > > "flames."
> > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > > > resources on the homepage.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
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> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to keep
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-11 by Jerry Olson

Todd, the old piezo inks and Generations inks are compatible, as are the
MIS inks. I used to mix them a couple years back when I first started
looking for cold tones. It's the Generations FIVE inks that aren't compatible.

Jerry



Todd Flashner wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> > I have some full-inkset PiezoTone test strips also.  However, I was most
> > eager to see if Jon had found a new and superior black ink or whether the
> > new K is just Generations Enhanced black.  We might be able to tell that by
> > Friday.
> 
> I asked Jon on the piezo list if the Piezotones were pure pigments or
> contained dyes, and whether they would outlast the original Piezo inks in an
> absolute sense (fading vs warming) but got no reply. Do any of you beta
> users know anything about the makeup of these inks?
> 
> I'd doubt it's Gen enhanced purely because Jon implies Piezotones are
> chemically incompatible with the old inks while we know Gen inks are not.
> Though, now that I think about it, he really just recommended flushing the
> lines and changing carts, but that could surely be for reasons of
> consistency rather than compatibility...
> 
> Well, I certainly hope it's an advancement, new inks have been hitting the
> market. OTOH, we do seem to see that most brands are ultimately quite common
> to each other. Speaking of which, could they possibly be based on the Epson
> Ultrachrome K?
> 
> Todd
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-11 by Todd Flashner

Hi Jerry

Yeah I was trying to say that Gen inks WERE compatible with Piezo inks (I
was a user of Paul's original Piezo/Gen VT formula too) but me English no
good. ;-)

I didn't know the Gen 5 inks were not compatible though! Have you tried them
BTW? What are you using for color work these days, the Epson 1280 dyes?

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Todd, the old piezo inks and Generations inks are compatible, as are the
> MIS inks. I used to mix them a couple years back when I first started
> looking for cold tones. It's the Generations FIVE inks that aren't compatible.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> Todd Flashner wrote:
>> 
>>> I have some full-inkset PiezoTone test strips also.  However, I was most
>>> eager to see if Jon had found a new and superior black ink or whether the
>>> new K is just Generations Enhanced black.  We might be able to tell that by
>>> Friday.
>> 
>> I asked Jon on the piezo list if the Piezotones were pure pigments or
>> contained dyes, and whether they would outlast the original Piezo inks in an
>> absolute sense (fading vs warming) but got no reply. Do any of you beta
>> users know anything about the makeup of these inks?
>> 
>> I'd doubt it's Gen enhanced purely because Jon implies Piezotones are
>> chemically incompatible with the old inks while we know Gen inks are not.
>> Though, now that I think about it, he really just recommended flushing the
>> lines and changing carts, but that could surely be for reasons of
>> consistency rather than compatibility...
>> 
>> Well, I certainly hope it's an advancement, new inks have been hitting the
>> market. OTOH, we do seem to see that most brands are ultimately quite common
>> to each other. Speaking of which, could they possibly be based on the Epson
>> Ultrachrome K?
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>> "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone with Epson Driver Dmax

2002-06-11 by Jerry Olson

Hi Todd,

There seems to be a problem with Generations 5 inks and glossy papers. I
hear they are fine for matte, but no better than Generations 4 in
overall quality.  According to Media street themselves, Generations 5
inks are NOT compatible with any other MIS inkset.  I haven't tried
Generations 5.  In case I didn't like them, then I'd have to flush my
whole CIS system, and that I don't want to do.  I wonder how long
printers are supposed to last? My 1160 is about 2 1/2 years old, and has
had thousands of prints through it. Still going strong, but I suppose it
will give up the ghost soon. I'll replace it with a 1280, if there's no
CIS available for the 2200 when it dies.

I use the MIS hextone inks in my 1280 printer, with Generations
"Enhanced" black in place of the VM black. The generations black is the
deepest black that I've found that is supposed to be archival. I've
never had any print in the last 4 or so years fade even a tiny bit,
under normal display conditions. I'm done testing prints and inks and
papers in south windows. I've settled on a few papers, and the VM MIS
inks with enhanced black as the black and white inkset. For papers, I
like Eclipse Satine, Legion Photo Matte, Epson Archival, Epson
Watercolor, and PhotoRag if I want the very best. The Photo Rag 308 is
beautiful. But I don't use it much, as it's too expensive.  Media street
sells it in 2 weights, one that is about 180 or so GSMS, but it feels
too thin.  Media Street sells it as "Royal Renaissance". All their
papers with "Royal" in their name is made by Hahnemuhle.

For color, I've been using the MIS Archival Color inks in my 1160, and
Enhanced Black in place of the MIS black.  

I was really hoping to get a 2200, but I understand that the individual
ink tanks are very small.  So until a CIS is available, I won't be
getting that printer.

Jerry

Todd Flashner wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Hi Jerry
> 
> Yeah I was trying to say that Gen inks WERE compatible with Piezo inks (I
> was a user of Paul's original Piezo/Gen VT formula too) but me English no
> good. ;-)
> 
> I didn't know the Gen 5 inks were not compatible though! Have you tried them
> BTW? What are you using for color work these days, the Epson 1280 dyes?
> 
> Todd
> 
> > Todd, the old piezo inks and Generations inks are compatible, as are the
> > MIS inks. I used to mix them a couple years back when I first started
> > looking for cold tones. It's the Generations FIVE inks that aren't compatible.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > Todd Flashner wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have some full-inkset PiezoTone test strips also.  However, I was most
> >>> eager to see if Jon had found a new and superior black ink or whether the
> >>> new K is just Generations Enhanced black.  We might be able to tell that by
> >>> Friday.
> >>
> >> I asked Jon on the piezo list if the Piezotones were pure pigments or
> >> contained dyes, and whether they would outlast the original Piezo inks in an
> >> absolute sense (fading vs warming) but got no reply. Do any of you beta
> >> users know anything about the makeup of these inks?
> >>
> >> I'd doubt it's Gen enhanced purely because Jon implies Piezotones are
> >> chemically incompatible with the old inks while we know Gen inks are not.
> >> Though, now that I think about it, he really just recommended flushing the
> >> lines and changing carts, but that could surely be for reasons of
> >> consistency rather than compatibility...
> >>
> >> Well, I certainly hope it's an advancement, new inks have been hitting the
> >> market. OTOH, we do seem to see that most brands are ultimately quite common
> >> to each other. Speaking of which, could they possibly be based on the Epson
> >> Ultrachrome K?
> >>
> >> Todd
> >>
> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> >> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
> >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >> - Include your full name with your message.
> >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> >> them short.
> >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> >> "flames."
> >> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> >> resources on the homepage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

PiezoTone vs. MIS FS warming

2002-06-13 by Robert Morrison

For those that didn't see this on the piezo list, below is a post from Jon
Cone with a URL to get to a scan of a 100 hour Xenon fade of the Piezotones
vs. the MIS FS inks.  You  may need to be a member of the piezo3000 list to
be able to access the URL...I'm not sure.  It shows that the Piezotones warm
much less than the MIS FS set.  It is very difficult to judge from this
image whether there are any density differences at this point.

Robert

------ Forwarded Message
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Jon Cone <piezobw@...>
Reply-To: piezography3000@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:50:06 -0500
To: piezography3000@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [piezoBW] PiezoTone inks and MIS-FS inks in 100 hour Xenon fade
test

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/files/100hr-Xenon-Tests/

In the folder above are images of the results of 100 hours of Xenon Arc
testing on both the new PiezoTone WN inks and the MIS-FS inks on Hahnemuhle
photo rag. The rapid warm fade of the MIS-FS inks is very obvious by
comparison. While I am not trying to stir up any MIS vs Piezography debates,
I did want to demonstrate what we believe is a vast improvement to inks
which Piezography users have the choice of using.

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