Digital BW, The Print

Hi,

Nicholas Hartmann was kind enough to send me a print that he made 
using only black ink by setting the Epson driver to "Black Only". He 
printed with the black from the MIS VM ink set.

In all honesty I am amazed. Stunned. Everything I think I know tells 
me this should not work but it does. The print, on top of being a 
wonderful shot, is great. I think I had visions of something like my 
first efforts to print a photo using my 300 dpi laser printer. It may 
be that this method works because of the excellent dither pattern in 
the Epson driver.

As an exercise I took a 4000 dpi scan from a Tmax 400 35mm negative 
and printed it out using the Mono-Ink method and as a MIS VM quad-
tone. Are they different? Yes, but the differences are purely 
aesthetic. The Mono-Ink print has a very nice crisp feel to it. The 
quad-tone has smoother tonal transitions but looks less sharp in 
comparison. Two equally valid interpretations of the image.

Can you see the dot pattern in the Mono-Ink print? With my print and 
Nick's under normal viewing distances you would take it to be image 
grain in the low to mid tones. In the highlights it is there but is 
not visible without magnification.

As far as I am concerned Mono-Ink printing is a fully legitimate 
medium for producing B&W prints. Might be a good place for beginners 
to start with their color inkjet printers.

Please give this a try. Pick an image with some grain. In your 
histogram make sure that you are not bunched up on either end. This 
method will be more impacted by this than others.

I hope that Nick is out there and will post his full workflow from 
film to scan to Photoshop to print. I hope he joins the print 
exchange and sends out a Mono-Ink print.

Thanks,

Martin Wesley

-==???gitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Nicholas Hartmann was kind enough to send me a print that 
he made 
> using only black ink by setting the Epson driver to "Black Only". 
He 
> printed with the black from the MIS VM ink set.
> 
> In all honesty I am amazed. Stunned.

Martin, 

I did that same thing once using the Epson dyes in my 7000. I 
think I just printed one out as a "quick proof", with the Epson 
driver set to "Black Only", but at 1440. I certainly didn't expect too 
much from the print; I was just looking at some of the details; not 
really going for a "final print". But I too was shocked at how good 
it was, and also how neutral. There's a certain look of perfect 
neutrality, and when you see it, you know it. The black-only nailed 
it. It made me want to pursue getting more richness out of it; that 
might have been the only thing lacking. -Mark Tucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:

(snip)
> 
> Martin, 
> 
> I did that same thing once using the Epson dyes in my 7000. I 
> think I just printed one out as a "quick proof", with the Epson 
> driver set to "Black Only", but at 1440. I certainly didn't expect 
too 
> much from the print; I was just looking at some of the details; not 
> really going for a "final print". But I too was shocked at how good 
> it was, and also how neutral. There's a certain look of perfect 
> neutrality, and when you see it, you know it. The black-only nailed 
> it. It made me want to pursue getting more richness out of it; that 
> might have been the only thing lacking. -Mark Tucker

Mark,

What really startled me is not the differences but how close they 
were. I suspect that if you mixed a couple of mono-ink prints in an 
exhibit with some quad-ink prints most people would be hard pressed 
to pick them out and those would have to be people who have worked 
with this stuff.

Your point about the neutral tone of the images is something I forgot 
to mention. I have a terrible time with my reaction to the various 
colorcasts the different quad-ink sets produce. The only tone to the 
mono-ink print is the tone of the paper since the MIS VM black looks 
to be dead neutral. This quality says "B&W Photo" pretty strongly.

I am guessing that with the mono-ink and the good Epson driver the 
print may be close to a full 256 shades of gray. By going to a quad 
set you are probably moving up to somewhere between 512 and 1024. You 
can see this in the prints but it is not as big a difference as I 
expected.

This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink system. Use 
the black and a 50% dilution of the black. All this strongly supports 
the people who have said you really only need three inks to get a 
full tone print.

I hope someone will read this stuff, play with it and let us know.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink 
system. Use 
> the black and a 50% dilution of the black.

In commercial offset printing, there is a technique known as 
"double-dot black" printing. I did a poster in that method years 
ago. I don't know any of the details about it, but my guess is that 
it's a "budget" way to pump up the richness of the blacks, while 
still running one color of black only. (If I'm wrong, someone 
correct me here). So this would be similar to what you're 
suggesting.

I just shot a calendar this week for a liquor company. They're 
known to print only b/w in their ads, and I mean one hit of black 
only. The designer is nudging them to try to get them to at least 
spring for a double-dot black, to add as much depth as possible.

Also in commercial printing, there is general acceptance that you 
get more richness if you print at least a duotone, a tritone, or 
even CMYK-neutral to get the most richness out of a B/W image. 
It makes sense, since you're stacking up all those layers of ink. 
But wasn't it pretty stunning to see what just ONE hit of black-only 
could do with the Epson? I totally agree with you about the look of 
a "B/W photograph". I wish there was a way to run the Black 
channel at full strength, but then be able to back down all the 
other five inks in my 7000 to about quarter-strength, to add some 
richness, but also to eliminate that pesky color crossover.

-http://marktucker.com

Mark,

The double hit of black your referring to is accomplished by running 
two printers (ie. ink rollers) both loaded with black ink.  In areas of 
solid black, the additional printer lays down another layer of black 
ink (actually beneath the main ink layer).  This effectively increases 
the DMax by further blocking light to the sheet, and produces better 
depth.  This method also works well when running a duotone with, say, 
black and a PMS gray ink.  As with Piezography, the tonal range is 
divided up between the 2 inks, the gray handles the highs, black the 
lows with some mixing in the midtones.  Again, the gray, which goes 
onto the sheet first, underlays the blacks in the deep shadows, 
allowing better maximum black as in the above scenario.  The ultimate 
print is achieved by adding still more printers with additional grays 
to continue to divide the tonal range, and perhaps a gloss varnish for 
the silver print look.  This is where the idea for quad black printing 
initially came from.

Cheers,
Phil
http://philbard.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink 
> system. Use 
> > the black and a 50% dilution of the black.
> 
> In commercial offset printing, there is a technique known as 
> "double-dot black" printing. I did a poster in that method years 
> ago. I don't know any of the details about it, but my guess is that 
> it's a "budget" way to pump up the richness of the blacks, while 
> still running one color of black only. (If I'm wrong, someone 
> correct me here). So this would be similar to what you're 
> suggesting.
> 
> I just shot a calendar this week for a liquor company. They're 
> known to print only b/w in their ads, and I mean one hit of black 
> only. The designer is nudging them to try to get them to at least 
> spring for a double-dot black, to add as much depth as possible.
> 
> Also in commercial printing, there is general acceptance that you 
> get more richness if you print at least a duotone, a tritone, or 
> even CMYK-neutral to get the most richness out of a B/W image. 
> It makes sense, since you're stacking up all those layers of ink. 
> But wasn't it pretty stunning to see what just ONE hit of black-only 
> could do with the Epson? I totally agree with you about the look of 
> a "B/W photograph". I wish there was a way to run the Black 
> channel at full strength, but then be able to back down all the 
> other five inks in my 7000 to about quarter-strength, to add some 
> richness, but also to eliminate that pesky color crossover.
> 
> -http://marktucker.com

> 
> This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink system. Use
> the black and a 50% dilution of the black. All this strongly supports
> the people who have said you really only need three inks to get a
> full tone print.
> 
> I hope someone will read this stuff, play with it and let us know.
> 
> Martin

Is this possible? I mean, I always believed (I had never made any research;
I just assumed) that the 4-ink sets were done with 1 black and 3 different
additions of white ink onto black ink. If the 3 other inks are simply
dillutions, why bother to buy the sets? Just dillute them yourself, with a
little trial-and-error dillutions, to find the match that works fine for you
- is this (me) too dumb? Or too much of work for a not-so-good result?
Regards,

-- 
Rodolpho Pajuaba
www.pajuaba.com.br

Regarding multiple passes of the same sheet on a press, I did try running a
print through my 1160 twice to try to lay down a denser black. First I ran
the print through as normal, then I made a mask which allowed for printing
only of the lower values of the print. I wanted to leave the mid tones and
highlights alone on the 2nd pass, but double up the blacks. Good news and
bad. Good: perfect registration (if anyone is going to try this I recommend
you do immediately successive passes on the same printer, so that the paper
guide and everything is exactly as it was on the first pass. Bad: no visible
density difference. Now if I did two passes over the entirety of the print
it'd double the density, and the whole print would be (was) a stop darker,
but by just doubling up the blacks *I* did not see the benefit.

Oh well...

Now, if you could/can get exact registration on two printers you could do
some very interesting toning effects by printing colors over quads, for
instance. Not that any one should want to, but it does make for some
interesting possibilities.

Todd

> Mark,
> The double hit of black your referring to is accomplished by running
> two printers (ie. ink rollers) both loaded with black ink.  In areas of
> solid black, the additional printer lays down another layer of black
> ink (actually beneath the main ink layer).  This effectively increases
> the DMax by further blocking light to the sheet, and produces better
> depth.  This method also works well when running a duotone with, say,
> black and a PMS gray ink.  As with Piezography, the tonal range is
> divided up between the 2 inks, the gray handles the highs, black the
> lows with some mixing in the midtones.  Again, the gray, which goes
> onto the sheet first, underlays the blacks in the deep shadows,
> allowing better maximum black as in the above scenario.  The ultimate
> print is achieved by adding still more printers with additional grays
> to continue to divide the tonal range, and perhaps a gloss varnish for
> the silver print look.  This is where the idea for quad black printing
> initially came from.
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil
> http://philbard.com
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...>
> wrote:
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
>> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>>> This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink
>> system. Use 
>>> the black and a 50% dilution of the black.
>> 
>> In commercial offset printing, there is a technique known as
>> "double-dot black" printing. I did a poster in that method years
>> ago. I don't know any of the details about it, but my guess is that
>> it's a "budget" way to pump up the richness of the blacks, while
>> still running one color of black only. (If I'm wrong, someone
>> correct me here). So this would be similar to what you're
>> suggesting.
>> 
>> I just shot a calendar this week for a liquor company. They're
>> known to print only b/w in their ads, and I mean one hit of black
>> only. The designer is nudging them to try to get them to at least
>> spring for a double-dot black, to add as much depth as possible.
>> 
>> Also in commercial printing, there is general acceptance that you
>> get more richness if you print at least a duotone, a tritone, or
>> even CMYK-neutral to get the most richness out of a B/W image.
>> It makes sense, since you're stacking up all those layers of ink.
>> But wasn't it pretty stunning to see what just ONE hit of black-only
>> could do with the Epson? I totally agree with you about the look of
>> a "B/W photograph". I wish there was a way to run the Black
>> channel at full strength, but then be able to back down all the
>> other five inks in my 7000 to about quarter-strength, to add some
>> richness, but also to eliminate that pesky color crossover.
>> 
>> -http://marktucker.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Todd, I've also noticed that SOME times you can indeed get a perfect registration. I couldn't hardly believe it. It sure is odd you didn't
get any denser blacks with a second pass. Guess the ink was really black, no?

J








Todd Flashner wrote:

> Regarding multiple passes of the same sheet on a press, I did try running a
> print through my 1160 twice to try to lay down a denser black. First I ran
> the print through as normal, then I made a mask which allowed for printing
> only of the lower values of the print. I wanted to leave the mid tones and
> highlights alone on the 2nd pass, but double up the blacks. Good news and
> bad. Good: perfect registration (if anyone is going to try this I recommend
> you do immediately successive passes on the same printer, so that the paper
> guide and everything is exactly as it was on the first pass. Bad: no visible
> density difference. Now if I did two passes over the entirety of the print
> it'd double the density, and the whole print would be (was) a stop darker,
> but by just doubling up the blacks *I* did not see the benefit.
>
> Oh well...
>
> Now, if you could/can get exact registration on two printers you could do
> some very interesting toning effects by printing colors over quads, for
> instance. Not that any one should want to, but it does make for some
> interesting possibilities.
>
> Todd
>
> > Mark,
> > The double hit of black your referring to is accomplished by running
> > two printers (ie. ink rollers) both loaded with black ink.  In areas of
> > solid black, the additional printer lays down another layer of black
> > ink (actually beneath the main ink layer).  This effectively increases
> > the DMax by further blocking light to the sheet, and produces better
> > depth.  This method also works well when running a duotone with, say,
> > black and a PMS gray ink.  As with Piezography, the tonal range is
> > divided up between the 2 inks, the gray handles the highs, black the
> > lows with some mixing in the midtones.  Again, the gray, which goes
> > onto the sheet first, underlays the blacks in the deep shadows,
> > allowing better maximum black as in the above scenario.  The ultimate
> > print is achieved by adding still more printers with additional grays
> > to continue to divide the tonal range, and perhaps a gloss varnish for
> > the silver print look.  This is where the idea for quad black printing
> > initially came from.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Phil
> > http://philbard.com
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...>
> > wrote:
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> >> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >>> This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink
> >> system. Use
> >>> the black and a 50% dilution of the black.
> >>
> >> In commercial offset printing, there is a technique known as
> >> "double-dot black" printing. I did a poster in that method years
> >> ago. I don't know any of the details about it, but my guess is that
> >> it's a "budget" way to pump up the richness of the blacks, while
> >> still running one color of black only. (If I'm wrong, someone
> >> correct me here). So this would be similar to what you're
> >> suggesting.
> >>
> >> I just shot a calendar this week for a liquor company. They're
> >> known to print only b/w in their ads, and I mean one hit of black
> >> only. The designer is nudging them to try to get them to at least
> >> spring for a double-dot black, to add as much depth as possible.
> >>
> >> Also in commercial printing, there is general acceptance that you
> >> get more richness if you print at least a duotone, a tritone, or
> >> even CMYK-neutral to get the most richness out of a B/W image.
> >> It makes sense, since you're stacking up all those layers of ink.
> >> But wasn't it pretty stunning to see what just ONE hit of black-only
> >> could do with the Epson? I totally agree with you about the look of
> >> a "B/W photograph". I wish there was a way to run the Black
> >> channel at full strength, but then be able to back down all the
> >> other five inks in my 7000 to about quarter-strength, to add some
> >> richness, but also to eliminate that pesky color crossover.
> >>
> >> -http://marktucker.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Phil Bard" <phil@p...> 
wrote:
> Mark,
> The double hit of black your referring to is accomplished by 
running 
> two printers (ie. ink rollers) both loaded with black ink.


For some reason, I thought the double-dot black was done in the 
engraving film somehow. So that a client could save money by 
running the job on a one-color press, with a single hit of black. 
But somehow the film "tricked" it into getting more density. (But 
reading this, it sounds kinda fishy doesn't it.).

Maybe it WAS done with two passes of black. Maybe the money 
savings was running the job on a two-color press, rather than a 
four or six-color press. Maybe that was it.

But that was probably eighteen years ago when I did that job that 
way. (Way before anybody had even thought about a 
Macintosh....).

-Mark

"Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

>Nicholas Hartmann was kind enough to send me a print that he made 
>using only black ink by setting the Epson driver to "Black Only". He 
>printed with the black from the MIS VM ink set.

[big snip]

>I hope that Nick is out there and will post his full workflow from 
>film to scan to Photoshop to print. ...

And I hope so too. Incidentally, I think one or two early adopters of 
Epson's 5500 have been enthusiatic about the black-and-white prints 
they got with Epson inks on, I believe, a 2880 black-only setting. 
Not that I remember them saying that they did less well at 1440.

Sam

Rodolpho,

First the quads appear to be dilutions but may also have a slight 
shift in tints to increase tonal differences. If you want to mix your 
own then MIS sells the necessary inks and base. Go to:

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/quadtone.html

Check out their Custom Tinting Inks. With this approach you can get 
exactly what you want but the price is the need to create custom 
curves to translate the correct information to the printer driver. 
This can and has been done, but be prepared to invest some serious 
time in the process.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Rodolpho Pajuaba 
<rodolpho@p...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink system. 
Use
> > the black and a 50% dilution of the black. All this strongly 
supports
> > the people who have said you really only need three inks to get a
> > full tone print.
> > 
> > I hope someone will read this stuff, play with it and let us know.
> > 
> > Martin
> 
> Is this possible? I mean, I always believed (I had never made any 
research;
> I just assumed) that the 4-ink sets were done with 1 black and 3 
different
> additions of white ink onto black ink. If the 3 other inks are 
simply
> dillutions, why bother to buy the sets? Just dillute them yourself, 
with a
> little trial-and-error dillutions, to find the match that works 
fine for you
> - is this (me) too dumb? Or too much of work for a not-so-good 
result?

> Regards,
> 
> -- 
> Rodolpho Pajuaba
> www.pajuaba.com.br

Well, I got the feeling if the print were being back-lit the extra density
would have made a difference, but once enough is put down to be opaque over
the paper, the only way at that point to increase depth would be to add
gloss, to change it's reflectivity. What was happening in my case was that
the more tones of "black" I included in my image, the more they blocked up,
and detail was lost, yet just hitting the true blacks with a second pass was
too minimal to matter.

> Todd, I've also noticed that SOME times you can indeed get a perfect
> registration. I couldn't hardly believe it. It sure is odd you didn't
> get any denser blacks with a second pass. Guess the ink was really black, no?
> 
> J
 
> 
> Todd Flashner wrote:
> 
>> Regarding multiple passes of the same sheet on a press, I did try running a
>> print through my 1160 twice to try to lay down a denser black. First I ran
>> the print through as normal, then I made a mask which allowed for printing
>> only of the lower values of the print. I wanted to leave the mid tones and
>> highlights alone on the 2nd pass, but double up the blacks. Good news and
>> bad. Good: perfect registration (if anyone is going to try this I recommend
>> you do immediately successive passes on the same printer, so that the paper
>> guide and everything is exactly as it was on the first pass. Bad: no visible
>> density difference. Now if I did two passes over the entirety of the print
>> it'd double the density, and the whole print would be (was) a stop darker,
>> but by just doubling up the blacks *I* did not see the benefit.
>> 
>> Oh well...
>> 
>> Now, if you could/can get exact registration on two printers you could do
>> some very interesting toning effects by printing colors over quads, for
>> instance. Not that any one should want to, but it does make for some
>> interesting possibilities.
>> 
>> Todd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Phil Bard" <phil@p...> 
> wrote:
> > Mark,
> > The double hit of black your referring to is accomplished by 
> running 
> > two printers (ie. ink rollers) both loaded with black ink.
> 
> 
> For some reason, I thought the double-dot black was done in the 
> engraving film somehow. So that a client could save money by 
> running the job on a one-color press, with a single hit of black. 
> But somehow the film "tricked" it into getting more density. (But 
> reading this, it sounds kinda fishy doesn't it.).
> 
> Maybe it WAS done with two passes of black. Maybe the money 
> savings was running the job on a two-color press, rather than a 
> four or six-color press. Maybe that was it.
> 
> But that was probably eighteen years ago when I did that job that 
> way. (Way before anybody had even thought about a 
> Macintosh....).
> 
> -Mark

Mark,

Every technology seems to have it's own vocabulary which is rapidly 
changing in meaning as technology increases. I also thought it 
referred to a way to increase black with a single plate and pass 
through the press. It's the plates and passes that control the cost. 
Maybe you run the same plate twice with different ink loading to 
punch up the blacks. You pay for the double pass but not the extra 
plate. Just a thought.

Martin

Sam, I just tried printing with black only ink MIS Variable Hextone black, on Epson Archival matte paper.

The image was full of bizzare little artifacts, grain, windowscreen like cross hatches, and something that looked like banding on a toot.
All mixed together. MOST unpleasant.

But, the TONE was beautiful, the Contrast was wonderful, and except for all the artifacts, looked great, from about 12 to 15 inches. But up
close you can see it all.

Jerry






"Sam A. McCandless" wrote:

> "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
> >Nicholas Hartmann was kind enough to send me a print that he made
> >using only black ink by setting the Epson driver to "Black Only". He
> >printed with the black from the MIS VM ink set.
>
> [big snip]
>
> >I hope that Nick is out there and will post his full workflow from
> >film to scan to Photoshop to print. ...
>
> And I hope so too. Incidentally, I think one or two early adopters of
> Epson's 5500 have been enthusiatic about the black-and-white prints
> they got with Epson inks on, I believe, a 2880 black-only setting.
> Not that I remember them saying that they did less well at 1440.
>
> Sam
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

For the type of work you are doing, and myself for that matter, I 
don't see the mono-ink method as the way to go. I mostly work with 
4x5 or medium format striving for as little grain as possible.

Where the mono-ink gets interesting and the differences are reduced, 
is when you take that 35mm Tri-X type negative and the grain pattern 
is on a scale with the printer dot pattern. Then I think all Nick's 
comments were on the money and for the look he wants the trade offs 
are legit. 

There are definitely problems but I sure expected a much larger 
difference in quality than what I am seeing. Some of the texture in 
the fine detail takes on a real crispness that is played down by the 
quad print.

Martin




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Sam, I just tried printing with black only ink MIS Variable Hextone 
black, on Epson Archival matte paper.
> 
> The image was full of bizzare little artifacts, grain, windowscreen 
like cross hatches, and something that looked like banding on a toot.
> All mixed together. MOST unpleasant.
> 
> But, the TONE was beautiful, the Contrast was wonderful, and except 
for all the artifacts, looked great, from about 12 to 15 inches. But 
up
> close you can see it all.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Sam A. McCandless" wrote:
> 
> > "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
> > >Nicholas Hartmann was kind enough to send me a print that he made
> > >using only black ink by setting the Epson driver to "Black 
Only". He
> > >printed with the black from the MIS VM ink set.
> >
> > [big snip]
> >
> > >I hope that Nick is out there and will post his full workflow 
from
> > >film to scan to Photoshop to print. ...
> >
> > And I hope so too. Incidentally, I think one or two early 
adopters of
> > Epson's 5500 have been enthusiatic about the black-and-white 
prints
> > they got with Epson inks on, I believe, a 2880 black-only setting.
> > Not that I remember them saying that they did less well at 1440.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Todd, I printed the somersets. Here's the results:

They all printed identically, with the same blacks. Not quite as good as Epson archival. If you didn't have a lot of large black areas in
your print, they would be quite nice. I don't think these papers are the same as the original. The thicker one is a very nice paper.

Jerry


Todd Flashner wrote:

> Well, I got the feeling if the print were being back-lit the extra density
> would have made a difference, but once enough is put down to be opaque over
> the paper, the only way at that point to increase depth would be to add
> gloss, to change it's reflectivity. What was happening in my case was that
> the more tones of "black" I included in my image, the more they blocked up,
> and detail was lost, yet just hitting the true blacks with a second pass was
> too minimal to matter.
>
> > Todd, I've also noticed that SOME times you can indeed get a perfect
> > registration. I couldn't hardly believe it. It sure is odd you didn't
> > get any denser blacks with a second pass. Guess the ink was really black, no?
> >
> > J
>
> >
> > Todd Flashner wrote:
> >
> >> Regarding multiple passes of the same sheet on a press, I did try running a
> >> print through my 1160 twice to try to lay down a denser black. First I ran
> >> the print through as normal, then I made a mask which allowed for printing
> >> only of the lower values of the print. I wanted to leave the mid tones and
> >> highlights alone on the 2nd pass, but double up the blacks. Good news and
> >> bad. Good: perfect registration (if anyone is going to try this I recommend
> >> you do immediately successive passes on the same printer, so that the paper
> >> guide and everything is exactly as it was on the first pass. Bad: no visible
> >> density difference. Now if I did two passes over the entirety of the print
> >> it'd double the density, and the whole print would be (was) a stop darker,
> >> but by just doubling up the blacks *I* did not see the benefit.
> >>
> >> Oh well...
> >>
> >> Now, if you could/can get exact registration on two printers you could do
> >> some very interesting toning effects by printing colors over quads, for
> >> instance. Not that any one should want to, but it does make for some
> >> interesting possibilities.
> >>
> >> Todd
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

What paper, Martin?

On the Epson matte, the little artifacts/banding/screendoor patterns, etc were not good looking. It didn't look at all like a nice even film
grain. Maybe on a different paper it would look entirely different. Also, I didn't use grainy 35mm film, so it looks as though the prints
would never look like Nick's. Sometime I'll try this with a grainy 35mm neg. Might be pleasantly surprised!

Jerry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Nicholas Hartmann was kind enough to send me a print that he made 
> using only black ink by setting the Epson driver to "Black Only". He 
> printed with the black from the MIS VM ink set.

Martin, he sent me one too, I have it in front of me.
> 
> ...The print, on top of being a 
> wonderful shot, is great.

Yup, as Nick was trying to tell us, for the type of image, and image structure, it works really well.
There are many print esthetics, and many possible ways to get there.

Regarding double strike printing, I found it important to let it dry very thoroughly before the second strike. There is a 
definite increase in density. More than using a rich black with a RIP. That's as far as I took it.
Dan, and I think David Stock, were experimenting with this way back when...
Tyler

Here I go, answering myself, as usual. Okay, after I wrote the stuff below I
happened two print two grayscales which overlapped, and sure enough, max
black was denser where the two overlapped. So I tried it on an image that
has some large black expanses - the one I used for the first piezo exchange
in fact. Yes, rather noticeable difference.

Ya hearin' me Jerry? BLACKER BLACKS! Perfect registration on my 1160 with
the paper guide set just snug.

It's all in the right mask. Where you allow the overprint to cut off, and
curtail spill-over into unwanted areas. I happen to like masks, but for
those who don't, but like good blacks, this might be reason enough to pull
that PS book off the shelf for review. ;-)

Todd

> Well, I got the feeling if the print were being back-lit the extra density
> would have made a difference, but once enough is put down to be opaque over
> the paper, the only way at that point to increase depth would be to add
> gloss, to change it's reflectivity. What was happening in my case was that
> the more tones of "black" I included in my image, the more they blocked up,
> and detail was lost, yet just hitting the true blacks with a second pass was
> too minimal to matter.
> 
> 
>> Todd, I've also noticed that SOME times you can indeed get a perfect
>> registration. I couldn't hardly believe it. It sure is odd you didn't
>> get any denser blacks with a second pass. Guess the ink was really black, no?
>> 
>> J
> 
>> 
>> Todd Flashner wrote:
>> 
>>> Regarding multiple passes of the same sheet on a press, I did try running a
>>> print through my 1160 twice to try to lay down a denser black. First I ran
>>> the print through as normal, then I made a mask which allowed for printing
>>> only of the lower values of the print. I wanted to leave the mid tones and
>>> highlights alone on the 2nd pass, but double up the blacks. Good news and
>>> bad. Good: perfect registration (if anyone is going to try this I recommend
>>> you do immediately successive passes on the same printer, so that the paper
>>> guide and everything is exactly as it was on the first pass. Bad: no visible
>>> density difference. Now if I did two passes over the entirety of the print
>>> it'd double the density, and the whole print would be (was) a stop darker,
>>> but by just doubling up the blacks *I* did not see the benefit.
>>> 
>>> Oh well...
>>> 
>>> Now, if you could/can get exact registration on two printers you could do
>>> some very interesting toning effects by printing colors over quads, for
>>> instance. Not that any one should want to, but it does make for some
>>> interesting possibilities.
>>> 
>>> Todd

One more thing. This means some of those old papers, which failed on the
blacks, might have new life.

Todd

> Here I go, answering myself, as usual. Okay, after I wrote the stuff below I
> happened two print two grayscales which overlapped, and sure enough, max
> black was denser where the two overlapped. So I tried it on an image that
> has some large black expanses - the one I used for the first piezo exchange
> in fact. Yes, rather noticeable difference.
> 
> Ya hearin' me Jerry? BLACKER BLACKS! Perfect registration on my 1160 with
> the paper guide set just snug.
> 
> It's all in the right mask. Where you allow the overprint to cut off, and
> curtail spill-over into unwanted areas. I happen to like masks, but for
> those who don't, but like good blacks, this might be reason enough to pull
> that PS book off the shelf for review. ;-)
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
>> Well, I got the feeling if the print were being back-lit the extra density
>> would have made a difference, but once enough is put down to be opaque over
>> the paper, the only way at that point to increase depth would be to add
>> gloss, to change it's reflectivity. What was happening in my case was that
>> the more tones of "black" I included in my image, the more they blocked up,
>> and detail was lost, yet just hitting the true blacks with a second pass was
>> too minimal to matter.
>> 
>> 
>>> Todd, I've also noticed that SOME times you can indeed get a perfect
>>> registration. I couldn't hardly believe it. It sure is odd you didn't
>>> get any denser blacks with a second pass. Guess the ink was really black,
>>> no?
>>> 
>>> J
>> 
>>> 
>>> Todd Flashner wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Regarding multiple passes of the same sheet on a press, I did try running a
>>>> print through my 1160 twice to try to lay down a denser black. First I ran
>>>> the print through as normal, then I made a mask which allowed for printing
>>>> only of the lower values of the print. I wanted to leave the mid tones and
>>>> highlights alone on the 2nd pass, but double up the blacks. Good news and
>>>> bad. Good: perfect registration (if anyone is going to try this I recommend
>>>> you do immediately successive passes on the same printer, so that the paper
>>>> guide and everything is exactly as it was on the first pass. Bad: no
>>>> visible
>>>> density difference. Now if I did two passes over the entirety of the print
>>>> it'd double the density, and the whole print would be (was) a stop darker,
>>>> but by just doubling up the blacks *I* did not see the benefit.
>>>> 
>>>> Oh well...
>>>> 
>>>> Now, if you could/can get exact registration on two printers you could do
>>>> some very interesting toning effects by printing colors over quads, for
>>>> instance. Not that any one should want to, but it does make for some
>>>> interesting possibilities.
>>>> 
>>>> Todd

Jerry,

Nick's was on Heavy Weight Matte and I did mine on EAM. Both Nick's 
image and my image contain a lot of stone, stucco, brick, etc. 
surfaces. In the "Custom" settings of the Epson driver I used a 1440 
dpi printer setting and picked "Matte Paper - Heavy Weight" Printed 
on the Epson 1280. I don't see any banding or window screen. A hint 
of artifacts in a small patch of sky but only if I magnify.

I think this is a very image dependent method and, at a guess, there 
needs to be little or no bunching of tones at either end of the 
histogram.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> What paper, Martin?
> 
> On the Epson matte, the little artifacts/banding/screendoor 
patterns, etc were not good looking. It didn't look at all like a 
nice even film
> grain. Maybe on a different paper it would look entirely different. 
Also, I didn't use grainy 35mm film, so it looks as though the prints
> would never look like Nick's. Sometime I'll try this with a grainy 
35mm neg. Might be pleasantly surprised!
> 
> Jerry

In my experience, I've simply found that printers charge by the number 
of colors running.  It's more work to register the dot from 2 printers, 
and of course 2 uses more ink.  Plus there is the need for a second 
plate.  It may still run on a 4 or 6 color press, but the other 
printers will be turned off.  The other option for them is to run twice 
on a single color press, but this doubles the time required, and that's 
another issue/problem.

As far as gettting better blacks with Piezo, it's unlikely double 
passes of solid black will add much to the DMax, since a nearly solid 
blanket of carbon is being laid down on just a single pass, and the 
DMax can't exceed the carbon's reflectivity/absorbtion.  Adding more 
won't contribute much, I don't think.  In the printing business, they 
are dealing with inks as opposed to pigment, and inks are transparent.  
Therefore getting thicker layers on the sheet produces visibly darker 
tones.

Phil
http://philbard.com

> 
> Every technology seems to have it's own vocabulary which is rapidly 
> changing in meaning as technology increases. I also thought it 
> referred to a way to increase black with a single plate and pass 
> through the press. It's the plates and passes that control the cost. 
> Maybe you run the same plate twice with different ink loading to 
> punch up the blacks. You pay for the double pass but not the extra 
> plate. Just a thought.
> 
> Martin

>I did that same thing once using the Epson dyes in my 7000. I
>think I just printed one out as a "quick proof", with the Epson
>driver set to "Black Only", but at 1440. I certainly didn't expect too
>much from the print; I was just looking at some of the details; not
>really going for a "final print". But I too was shocked at how good
>it was, and also how neutral. There's a certain look of perfect
>neutrality, and when you see it, you know it. The black-only nailed
>it. It made me want to pursue getting more richness out of it; that
>might have been the only thing lacking. -Mark Tucker

Mark -

That "look of perfect neutrality" is exactly what I was after. _All_ the
quadtone prints I have seen have at least a subliminal look of being
polychromatic. What I am used to from a B&W print is a single tone,
distributed in various (very finely-grained) ways on a piece of white
paper; the K-only method reproduces or simulates that appearance. It's also
a physically and conceptually simple approach: black ink on white paper is
a very, very old way of creating images, and I like putting myself in the
way of that tradition.

-- Nick

NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@...

Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English

>Nicholas Hartmann was kind enough to send me a print that he made
>using only black ink by setting the Epson driver to "Black Only". He
>printed with the black from the MIS VM ink set.
>
>I hope that Nick is out there and will post his full workflow from
>film to scan to Photoshop to print. I hope he joins the print
>exchange and sends out a Mono-Ink print.

Thanks to Martin (and Tyler and Todd) for their kind words on the
black-only printing method. The bottom line is that it works for me and my
negatives and my perceptions; others have (I hope) very different aesthetic
expectations for their own work.

I won't be able to join the print exchange this time around because a) it's
closed and b) I am not quite ready to go into production. If there is
another exchange, I'll do my best to get in line early.

As far as the workflow is concerned, here is everything I can think of from
start to finish:

Camera: Leica M6
Lens: 50/2 Summicron
Aperture: somewhere between f/4 and f/11

Film: Kodak TMax 400 (TMY)
Developer: Kodak TMax, one-shot, 65 ml of concentrate in 500 ml water
(don't ask)
Initial 2-minute water bath; then developed typically 7.5 minutes at 75
degrees F, two quick inversions every 30 seconds.
Stop, fix, PermaWash, water wash, PhotoFlo, hang up to dry.

Scanner: Minolta Dimage Scan Dual II
Resolution: 2820 ppi (max.)
Settings: Automatic, I guess. The prescan histogram usually looks great, so
I haven't been messing with anything.

Import into Photoshop, crop to eliminate white space, resize (to approx.
6x9" for now).
Remove spots using Clone (rubber stamp) tool.

Adjust global contrast with Curves and/or Levels.
Adjust local areas with Burn/Dodge tool <gasp> or (just discovered this)
the Adjust + Snapshot + Undo + History Brush trick (more later).

Monitor settings on my iMac are:
Contrast: maximum
Brightness: centered + 3 clicks
in Adobe Gamma: using Macintosh gamma 1.8 setting, calibrate the
box-within-box target to be as uniform as possible.

I have worked out a very mild Transfer Function curve (in the Page Setup
dialog) that compensates for otherwise slightly blocked-up blacks and
blown-out highlights on paper. I believe I now have a very good match
between what I see on-screen and what appears on the paper; this will need
tweaking if I decide to standardize on a paper other than EHWM.

Ink: MIS VM black
Paper (for now): Epson Heavyweight Matte

Print dialog (Epson 1160):
Paper: Matte Paper-Heavyweight
Color: Black
Mode: Custom
Source Space: Gamma 2.2 (yes, this is different from the monitor gamma)
Print Space: Profile: Same as Source

in the Advanced sub-dialog:
	Print Quality: Photo 1440 dpi
	Halftoning: Error Diffusion
	High Speed: off

Then hit the button and wait...

That's all I can think of. Please post questions if you have them; I will
need to take them home and look stuff up.

Best,

-- Nick

NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@...

Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English

>I think this is a very image dependent method and, at a guess, there
>needs to be little or no bunching of tones at either end of the
>histogram.

Actually there is an awful lot of black and near-black in that image I sent
you. I don't recall the histogram itself, but I would bet it piles up like
crazy toward the dark end...

-- Nick

NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@...

Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English

>Sam, I just tried printing with black only ink MIS Variable Hextone 
>black, on Epson Archival matte paper.
>
>The image was full of bizzare little artifacts, grain, windowscreen 
>like cross hatches, and something that looked like banding on a toot.
>All mixed together. MOST unpleasant.
>
>But, the TONE was beautiful, the Contrast was wonderful, and except 
>for all the artifacts, looked great, from about 12 to 15 inches. But 
>up
>close you can see it all.
>
>Jerry

Thanks Jerry. This was on your 1280 at 2880?

Sam

Todd, how many pixels did you feather your mask for the blacks?

I'll try this!

Jerry



Todd Flashner wrote:

> Here I go, answering myself, as usual. Okay, after I wrote the stuff below I
> happened two print two grayscales which overlapped, and sure enough, max
> black was denser where the two overlapped. So I tried it on an image that
> has some large black expanses - the one I used for the first piezo exchange
> in fact. Yes, rather noticeable difference.
>
> Ya hearin' me Jerry? BLACKER BLACKS! Perfect registration on my 1160 with
> the paper guide set just snug.
>
> It's all in the right mask. Where you allow the overprint to cut off, and
> curtail spill-over into unwanted areas. I happen to like masks, but for
> those who don't, but like good blacks, this might be reason enough to pull
> that PS book off the shelf for review. ;-)
>
> Todd
>
> > Well, I got the feeling if the print were being back-lit the extra density
> > would have made a difference, but once enough is put down to be opaque over
> > the paper, the only way at that point to increase depth would be to add
> > gloss, to change it's reflectivity. What was happening in my case was that
> > the more tones of "black" I included in my image, the more they blocked up,
> > and detail was lost, yet just hitting the true blacks with a second pass was
> > too minimal to matter.
> >
> >
> >> Todd, I've also noticed that SOME times you can indeed get a perfect
> >> registration. I couldn't hardly believe it. It sure is odd you didn't
> >> get any denser blacks with a second pass. Guess the ink was really black, no?
> >>
> >> J
> >
> >>
> >> Todd Flashner wrote:
> >>
> >>> Regarding multiple passes of the same sheet on a press, I did try running a
> >>> print through my 1160 twice to try to lay down a denser black. First I ran
> >>> the print through as normal, then I made a mask which allowed for printing
> >>> only of the lower values of the print. I wanted to leave the mid tones and
> >>> highlights alone on the 2nd pass, but double up the blacks. Good news and
> >>> bad. Good: perfect registration (if anyone is going to try this I recommend
> >>> you do immediately successive passes on the same printer, so that the paper
> >>> guide and everything is exactly as it was on the first pass. Bad: no visible
> >>> density difference. Now if I did two passes over the entirety of the print
> >>> it'd double the density, and the whole print would be (was) a stop darker,
> >>> but by just doubling up the blacks *I* did not see the benefit.
> >>>
> >>> Oh well...
> >>>
> >>> Now, if you could/can get exact registration on two printers you could do
> >>> some very interesting toning effects by printing colors over quads, for
> >>> instance. Not that any one should want to, but it does make for some
> >>> interesting possibilities.
> >>>
> >>> Todd
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Todd, can you get consistently perfectly registered prints if the paper gap is tight enough?

J




Todd Flashner wrote:

> One more thing. This means some of those old papers, which failed on the
> blacks, might have new life.
>
> Todd
>
> > Here I go, answering myself, as usual. Okay, after I wrote the stuff below I
> > happened two print two grayscales which overlapped, and sure enough, max
> > black was denser where the two overlapped. So I tried it on an image that
> > has some large black expanses - the one I used for the first piezo exchange
> > in fact. Yes, rather noticeable difference.
> >
> > Ya hearin' me Jerry? BLACKER BLACKS! Perfect registration on my 1160 with
> > the paper guide set just snug.
> >
> > It's all in the right mask. Where you allow the overprint to cut off, and
> > curtail spill-over into unwanted areas. I happen to like masks, but for
> > those who don't, but like good blacks, this might be reason enough to pull
> > that PS book off the shelf for review. ;-)
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >> Well, I got the feeling if the print were being back-lit the extra density
> >> would have made a difference, but once enough is put down to be opaque over
> >> the paper, the only way at that point to increase depth would be to add
> >> gloss, to change it's reflectivity. What was happening in my case was that
> >> the more tones of "black" I included in my image, the more they blocked up,
> >> and detail was lost, yet just hitting the true blacks with a second pass was
> >> too minimal to matter.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Todd, I've also noticed that SOME times you can indeed get a perfect
> >>> registration. I couldn't hardly believe it. It sure is odd you didn't
> >>> get any denser blacks with a second pass. Guess the ink was really black,
> >>> no?
> >>>
> >>> J
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Todd Flashner wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Regarding multiple passes of the same sheet on a press, I did try running a
> >>>> print through my 1160 twice to try to lay down a denser black. First I ran
> >>>> the print through as normal, then I made a mask which allowed for printing
> >>>> only of the lower values of the print. I wanted to leave the mid tones and
> >>>> highlights alone on the 2nd pass, but double up the blacks. Good news and
> >>>> bad. Good: perfect registration (if anyone is going to try this I recommend
> >>>> you do immediately successive passes on the same printer, so that the paper
> >>>> guide and everything is exactly as it was on the first pass. Bad: no
> >>>> visible
> >>>> density difference. Now if I did two passes over the entirety of the print
> >>>> it'd double the density, and the whole print would be (was) a stop darker,
> >>>> but by just doubling up the blacks *I* did not see the benefit.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh well...
> >>>>
> >>>> Now, if you could/can get exact registration on two printers you could do
> >>>> some very interesting toning effects by printing colors over quads, for
> >>>> instance. Not that any one should want to, but it does make for some
> >>>> interesting possibilities.
> >>>>
> >>>> Todd
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Ah yes. If your images are primarily of stone or other nicely textured things, this method should work VERY well. It sure makes a nicely
Toned print.  The image I tried it on had a lot of smooth sky and water in it, (I wanted to see how bad it looked on smooth areas), and THIS
was not acceptable. But the stone looked great, because of the added sharpness/texture. I will try it on a grainy negative, If I can find
one. I never really used grainy film.

Jerry

Also, I haven't tried the 2880 position yet, as I never use glossy film, and don't think it would work well on matte.





Martin Wesley wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> Nick's was on Heavy Weight Matte and I did mine on EAM. Both Nick's
> image and my image contain a lot of stone, stucco, brick, etc.
> surfaces. In the "Custom" settings of the Epson driver I used a 1440
> dpi printer setting and picked "Matte Paper - Heavy Weight" Printed
> on the Epson 1280. I don't see any banding or window screen. A hint
> of artifacts in a small patch of sky but only if I magnify.
>
> I think this is a very image dependent method and, at a guess, there
> needs to be little or no bunching of tones at either end of the
> histogram.
>
> Martin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > What paper, Martin?
> >
> > On the Epson matte, the little artifacts/banding/screendoor
> patterns, etc were not good looking. It didn't look at all like a
> nice even film
> > grain. Maybe on a different paper it would look entirely different.
> Also, I didn't use grainy 35mm film, so it looks as though the prints
> > would never look like Nick's. Sometime I'll try this with a grainy
> 35mm neg. Might be pleasantly surprised!
> >
> > Jerry
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Ah yes. If your images are primarily of stone or other nicely 
textured things, this method should work VERY well. It sure 
makes a nicely
> Toned print.

I just tested an image. A greyscale file, printed 24x30", at 1440, 
using Black Only, and no Color Management. Again, a very 
beautiful neutral color, but with NOTICEABLE "stippling" 
pattern/texture. This must be what Jerry and others are noticing 
too. Oh, to get that color, but with the smooth, creamy transitions 
of the normal Epson driver look...
-MTucker

Jerry,

First off, I really only tried this around four times, so I don't really
recommend it as anything other than something to mess with for now, plus it
makes for a laborious (masking and running through the printer twice)
process which one would hope to avoid for most prints. But it did work for
my tests, so it may be nice once in a while - as needed.

> Todd, can you get consistently perfectly registered prints if the paper gap is
> tight enough?

So far it's been perfect on my 4 tries, using the 1160 with EAM. I didn't
make the gap too tight for fear of paper drag. I went with just snug. Other
papers/printers may be different.

>> One more thing. This means some of those old papers, which failed on the
>> blacks, might have new life.
>> 
>> Todd


> Todd, how many pixels did you feather your mask for the blacks?
> 
> I'll try this!

My down and dirty mask for my image with the large black expanse was to go
to color range, select shadows from the dropdown menu, then I applied curves
to the alpha channel to further define the range, then painted out some
areas which were included but I wanted excluded, then a 1 pixel Gaussian
blur. With this mask loaded as a selection, I loaded my composite channel
image, and did CMD+C to copy the image that was selected by the mask, then
pasted that into it's own layer. Then I just printed that layer (background
turned off) with the VT curves. There's no doubt other ways too.

I'll be off list till tomorrow, but let me know how it goes!

Todd

> 
>> Here I go, answering myself, as usual. Okay, after I wrote the stuff below I
>> happened two print two grayscales which overlapped, and sure enough, max
>> black was denser where the two overlapped. So I tried it on an image that
>> has some large black expanses - the one I used for the first piezo exchange
>> in fact. Yes, rather noticeable difference.
>> 
>> Ya hearin' me Jerry? BLACKER BLACKS! Perfect registration on my 1160 with
>> the paper guide set just snug.
>> 
>> It's all in the right mask. Where you allow the overprint to cut off, and
>> curtail spill-over into unwanted areas. I happen to like masks, but for
>> those who don't, but like good blacks, this might be reason enough to pull
>> that PS book off the shelf for review. ;-)
>> 
>> Todd

No, I've not tried the 2880 YET! and I've had the printer 5 months or so now. You have to set the media on a glossy film or paper setting to
get the 2880. I guess I should try one print, just to see how it looks. I imagine it will print slower than molasses though. In fact, I'll
do that now, just to see what happens. NOW I'm curious!


Jerry





"Sam A. McCandless" wrote:

> >Sam, I just tried printing with black only ink MIS Variable Hextone
> >black, on Epson Archival matte paper.
> >
> >The image was full of bizzare little artifacts, grain, windowscreen
> >like cross hatches, and something that looked like banding on a toot.
> >All mixed together. MOST unpleasant.
> >
> >But, the TONE was beautiful, the Contrast was wonderful, and except
> >for all the artifacts, looked great, from about 12 to 15 inches. But
> >up
> >close you can see it all.
> >
> >Jerry
>
> Thanks Jerry. This was on your 1280 at 2880?
>
> Sam
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mark, what black ink?  I have been using the VM black, and the actual color is magnificent. I'm going to try printing at 2880 right now just
to see if it improves.

Jerry



Mark Tucker wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Ah yes. If your images are primarily of stone or other nicely
> textured things, this method should work VERY well. It sure
> makes a nicely
> > Toned print.
>
> I just tested an image. A greyscale file, printed 24x30", at 1440,
> using Black Only, and no Color Management. Again, a very
> beautiful neutral color, but with NOTICEABLE "stippling"
> pattern/texture. This must be what Jerry and others are noticing
> too. Oh, to get that color, but with the smooth, creamy transitions
> of the normal Epson driver look...
> -MTucker
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Mark, what black ink?  I have been using the VM black, and the 
actual color is magnificent. I'm going to try printing at 2880 right 
now just
> to see if it improves.

Sorry, Jerry. Forgot to specify. I have the MIS 6-color dyes loaded. 
In the Epson print driver, I just selected "Black", instead of my 
standard "Color", at 1440, Hispeed Off, and "Same as Source", 
and Gamma 1.8, and PhotoPaper as MediaType.

Again, the neutrality of the color was beautiful, but when viewed 
at about 12" away, you could readily see that "stippling" look to 
the dots. Very pronounced dots. I have no idea what the Epson 
driver does when you just select BLACK; but it seems to default 
to a coarse dithering pattern.

The scan was very smooth: 22"x18", greyscale, at 240dpi, from 
my Imacon.

------

(For what it's worth, I ordered the CIS system today for my 7000, 
from MIS, with the variable hextone inks. Will be here on Friday. 
Bob seemed to imply that all the kinks have been worked out; 
they're on their fourth version of it for the 7000. No drilling; no 
monkey business...

I just can't leave well enough alone...)

-Mark Tucker

> Dilute them with WHAT?
> 
> water? Nope, it changes the ink colors.
> 
> Jerry


You dilute them with clear base (sold at the MIS site but only for the older
style inks).  This is an ink base with the same viscosity as the inks so it
keeps the pigment particles in suspension, unlike water which would allow
the particles to settle.  The older standard inks were basically dilutions
with some color ink added to provide a neutral balance on Somerset Velvet
(uncoated) when used in the Icefields processor (by Steve Heron).  It is
quite possible to make you own uncolored dilutions with clear base but
getting a set that prints well is not a small matter.

Dan Culbertson

Good day one and all,

Martin has kindly given me permission to announce the formation of 
Euroinkjet, best described as:

"The purpose of the Euro Ink Jet List can be summed up as an attempt 
to provide a forum for Artists and Photographers resident in Europe 
to discuss all matters relating to ink jet printing as a form of art. 
Those living outside Europe, with a particular interest in or 
connection to European Art and Culture will also be welcome to join."

I would like to stress that this is not another Technical List, 
although technical help will be offered off list
for members who are a bit shy of writing in English.

The Group messages are open to the public and you are welcome to have 
a look at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/euroinkjet/

Many thanks,

Jerry.