Digital BW, The Print

Cristian,

I can't imagine what you are doing wrong, buy you must be doing
something! My EAM paper/ VM inks with Paul's curves are better than any
darkroom prints I've ever made. And I was a custom silver printer at the
University of North Dakota for 31 years. You must have a setting wrong somewhere.

Of Course you cannot compare inkjet papers to fiber based papers. Inkjet
prints are NOT the same. The Paper is not the same.  But that doesn't
mean they aren't great prints! I think they are far better, especially
with all the wonderful papers like Photo Rag, Eclipse Satine, and the
Hahnemuhle line.

Behind glass, most people cannot tell a high quality inkjet print from a
silver print.

There is NO inkjet paper that looks exactly like fiber based paper. I
can't understand why, but I've never seen one. 

Jerry

cristianbaitg 

> Now I understand that so many
> galleries don't want inkjet prints. It's not about longevity, it's
> about quality. Pictures with MIS and EAM are drawings not photos.
> Under my point of view they are sooooo far away from Fiber based
> prints.
>

Hi Jerry:

I tried dozen of settings and .......just don't know
the prints look like drawings. They are plane not dimensional. If I 
compare them to Epson Semi Gloss Photo with only black ink the last 
looks 10000 times better. But sadly even using black ink I get 
Metamerism and the prints shift to green under daylight...but the 
resolution is amazing and the feel....same as a good RC Print. Fiber 
prints are another level. But EAM.....I have to miss something 
because the results are so poor. Mis Inks are neutral under every 
lighting condition but tonal transition is much poorer than on Color 
Life,Glossy or Semi Gloss and they lack depth. 

I hope that Lambda will save me. I was also told to try Fuji 
Frontier. I am looking for a well worked traditional RC print. I 
know that fiber gelatine prints have not been emulated yet by any 
process. I hope some day...

But I guess many of you like the Matte look so finally it's related 
to personal taste. Mine is very far away from Matte papers and MIS.

Thanks for your reply



 


<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Cristian,
> 
> I can't imagine what you are doing wrong, buy you must be doing
> something! My EAM paper/ VM inks with Paul's curves are better 
than any
> darkroom prints I've ever made. And I was a custom silver printer 
at the
> University of North Dakota for 31 years. You must have a setting 
wrong somewhere.
> 
> Of Course you cannot compare inkjet papers to fiber based papers. 
Inkjet
> prints are NOT the same. The Paper is not the same.  But that 
doesn't
> mean they aren't great prints! I think they are far better, 
especially
> with all the wonderful papers like Photo Rag, Eclipse Satine, and 
the
> Hahnemuhle line.
> 
> Behind glass, most people cannot tell a high quality inkjet print 
from a
> silver print.
> 
> There is NO inkjet paper that looks exactly like fiber based 
paper. I
> can't understand why, but I've never seen one. 
> 
> Jerry
> 
> cristianbaitg 
> 
> > Now I understand that so many
> > galleries don't want inkjet prints. It's not about longevity, 
it's

> > about quality. Pictures with MIS and EAM are drawings not photos.
> > Under my point of view they are sooooo far away from Fiber based
> > prints.
> >

Cristian,

I believe the photo lustre paper from epson and their inks make a print
indistinguishable from RC photo paper. But I really dislike that look,
myself. Try the Generations 4 Enhanced Black ink. It's the blackest ink
on the market, and rated by wilhelm to 100+ years, according to Media
Streets website.

Jerry

Hello Cristian,

> But sadly even using black ink I get 
> Metamerism and the prints shift to green under daylight

> But EAM.....I have to miss something because the results 
>are so poor. Mis Inks are neutral under every lighting 
>condition but tonal transition is much poorer than on Color 
> Life,Glossy or Semi Gloss and they lack depth. 

Sorry to hear you are having such trouble using your 1290.  I'm using
an 870 (6-ink) and getting really fine results (strong blacks,
excellent tonal gradation, no metamerism, negligible color shifting)
with black-only using MIS ink on EAM and PR.  Makes me think it must
be something in your settings.  

If you would like to see an example please send 2 stamps to me at

 Clayton Jones
 PO Box 7596
 West Palm Beach, FL 33405

and I'll send you a 4x5 print on PhotoRag. 

Here's basically what I do:

- scanned Tri-X neg in PS7 in Gray Scale mode
- assigned profile is Gray Gamma 2.2
- print using Epson driver with these settings
    - Ink = black
    - resolution = Photo 1440 dpi
    - High Speed is checked
    - color control = gamma 2.2
    - contrast/brightness sliders are at 0
    - paper setting is Matte Paper - Heavyweight

With few exceptions I get equally satisfying results on EAM and PR,
without having to change anything.  I hope this helps.

Regards, - cj

I like matte much better than glossy / semi-glossy paper. Why? Because I
like to see image detail instead of reflections. The reflections of glossy
paper makes me sick - I definitely don't like to bend/turn the paper or move
my head around to see the whole image.

BTW Cristian, I don't know if it degrades longevity or not, but why don't
you try to coat or laminate your MIS prints? I tried to laminate my prints
once, I loosed both image detail and black density slightly but it was more
like a silver print; in other words a "silver print imitation". But... To
me, a "carbon pigment print" stands by itself, a "laminated carbon pigment
print" is an imitation (I don't know about "coated carbon pigment prints",
so these are out of the scope of the previous statement).

Regards,
Loris.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cristianbaitg [mailto:cristianbaitg@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 12:41 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dissapointed With MIS VM Quadtone inks
>
>
> ...
> But I guess many of you like the Matte look so finally it's related
> to personal taste. Mine is very far away from Matte papers and MIS.

I made a mistake in the previous list of Black-Only settings.  The
assigned profile was wrong.  My apologies for the mistake.  Here is
the correct list, which gives close to true WYSIWYG with EAM and PR. 
This technique seems to require the 6-ink printers with 4 picoliter
ink droplets.

 - scanned neg in PS7 in Gray Scale mode
 - assigned profile is Dot Gain 20%
 - print using Epson driver with these settings
     - Ink = black
     - resolution = Photo 1440 dpi
     - High Speed is checked
     - color control = gamma 2.2
     - contrast/brightness sliders are at 0
     - paper setting is Matte Paper - Heavyweight


Regards, - cj

Hi Jerry:

After lots of proves here comes what I like best until now on Epson 
1290 with original Epson Inks:

Epson Premium Semigloss Paper.(It's a beatiful paper, nice tonal 
transition, not so much reflection, as you said it feels like a 
pearl RC paper).

Settings:

I downloaded the BRONZE Duotone from: 
http://home.attbi.com/~suryasoft/photos/bronze.htm

So I go from Grayscale to this duotone. 
Photoshop Color Managment is:
Document: Duotone
Print Space: Printer Color Managment
Intent: Perceptual
Epson Driver settings
Paper: premium Glossy
Output: 2880 dpi
Epson Calibration,Photorealistic, -5Magenta,-1 Yellow

With this settings I get a slight warm-magenta print under Tungsten 
light and a slight green-neutral under daylight.

If I print with all color adjustments to 0 or if I leave photoshop 
to color manage with Epson Premium Glossy Profile. Epson driver no 
color adjustment on, then I get a sepia-magenta print under tungsten 
and a very nice light brown sepia under daylight. 

Finally I am starting to get on a workflow that it's not perfect but 
I think I like it. If Epson inks where not suffering from metamerism 
I will never enter a lab again but this point is not resolved yet. 

Only black is ok but when you see the print against other that used 
all 6 inks then you say ahaaaa.....much better....

On Matte papers the grain just explodes. There is not enough detail 
if you compare to semi or gloss film. I shoot on a Fuji S2 wich I 
like a lot so far with it's obvious limitations agains my favourite 
Tri-X. I guess that if you shoot with MF or bigger that EAM will be 
great. I just see too much difference in resolution and smooth 
transitions between EAM and SGloss. Matter of personal taste.

But the big dissapointment to me has been MIS Quadtones. I even 
think that succ a poor quality is not possible and that or I was 
doing something wrong, or the inks where defective or they are the 
way they are. The prints I got out with Mis VM where ugly. But as so 
many people are getting great results I think the weak point of the 
chain must be on my side.

Anyways I just love the challenge and to get from dissapointment to 
happines when you get closer to your goals. We have such a great 
profession (or hobby).

Best regards 

> Cristian,
> 
> I believe the photo lustre paper from epson and their inks make a 
print
> indistinguishable from RC photo paper. But I really dislike that 
look,
> myself. Try the Generations 4 Enhanced Black ink. It's the 
blackest ink
> on the market, and rated by wilhelm to 100+ years, according to 
Media

> Streets website.
> 
> Jerry

What does "assigned profile dot gain 20%" do? I'm new at this. I've
been using the same settings as you for black only on my 1280 with
EAM, except for the "assigned profile" Does this have any impact on
the printed image, or just what you see on the screen? 
Bob Michaels
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:

> I made a mistake in the previous list of Black-Only settings.  The
> assigned profile was wrong.  My apologies for the mistake.  Here is
> the correct list, which gives close to true WYSIWYG with EAM and PR. 
> This technique seems to require the 6-ink printers with 4 picoliter
> ink droplets.
> 
>  - scanned neg in PS7 in Gray Scale mode
>  - assigned profile is Dot Gain 20%
>  - print using Epson driver with these settings
>      - Ink = black
>      - resolution = Photo 1440 dpi
>      - High Speed is checked
>      - color control = gamma 2.2
>      - contrast/brightness sliders are at 0
>      - paper setting is Matte Paper - Heavyweight
> 
> 
> Regards, - cj

Hello Bob,

> What does "assigned profile dot gain 20%" do? I'm new at this. I've
> been using the same settings as you for black only on my 1280 with
> EAM, except for the "assigned profile" Does this have any impact on
> the printed image, or just what you see on the screen? 

Steve K. and I were just discussing this on the phone.  My experience
has been that the the only thing that changes is what you see on the
screen.  If you set it at Gamma 2.2 the screen image is darker.  The
print from each is the same, and most closely matches what you see at
Dot Gain 20%.  

However, Steve found on his PC that it _does_ make a difference in the
print.  What we finally figured out is that in the "Print with
Preview" dialog, I have the picklist set to "Output" and his is set to
"Color Management".  Apparently this is the difference.  So you need
to have the color management turned off.

So I would add this to the Settings list:

 - scanned neg in PS7 in Gray Scale mode
 - assigned profile is Dot Gain 20%
 - select "Output" in the Print preview window
 - print using Epson driver with these settings
     - Ink = black
     - resolution = Photo 1440 dpi
     - High Speed is checked
     - color control = gamma 2.2
     - contrast/brightness sliders are at 0
     - paper setting is Matte Paper - Heavyweight

I hope this helps.

Regards, - cj

Some time ago I ordered the VM inkset for my 1270 and couldn't get anything working.  The tonal range was lacking.  Now I have the VM-S set with revised curves for the 1270, and it is great.  Lots of detail and range, plus some longetity, I hope.  With the Paul Roark curves and the VM-S set, I get a cool sepia all the way to a neutral b&w.  My favorite is the mw curve, pleasingly warm with no green cast.  I suggest you go back through the workflow step by step.  BTW, I'm picky also - my darkroom printing is fiber silver or pt/pd.

  --Ken

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cristianbaitg 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 1:59 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Dissapointed With MIS VM Quadtone inks


  Hi fellows 


  Yes I am frustrated. I have bee searching for the holy Grail for so 
  long and finally I am close to give up. After many tries I am still 
  very far from a decent B&W photo. I have not tried 2200 yet and some 
  people find the result quite good but I don't think I would get rid 
  of the terrible metamerism that ALL printer suffer. 

  Some say That Image Print 5 solves the problem. May be but after 
  spending so much money on printers,inks and papers I think I have to 
  put a limit on my spendings. My girlfriend is already going crazy 
  with all the money that I have pulled out in my holy task. 

  After trying different papers on HP and Epson ( HP designjet 10ps 
  and EPSON 1290 ) I can say that they badly suffer from 
  metamerism...even if I print only black ink. Both printer have a 
  nice resolution and make stuning colour pictures but not in B&W when 
  you have a nice neutral print under tungsten light it get an awful 
  green cast under daylight. This happens also with only black ink. By 
  the way of all the combinations I tried...1290 only black ink with 
  Premium Semigloss Photo Paper gives the best result, second is Color 
  Life and third Premium Glossy photo. But the black ink is not 
  metamerism free so again it's not an option for me. Also with only 
  black ink you get lots of dots on highlight areas.

  With colour ink metamerism is even worse.......but you get better 
  transitions and no dots.

  I also bought MIS Quadtones VM and worked with Paul Roark workflow 
  with Epson Archival Matte and Crane's Museo. I tell you I was never 
  more dissapointed in my life. Now I understand that so many 
  galleries don't want inkjet prints. It's not about longevity, it's 
  about quality. Pictures with MIS and EAM are drawings not photos. 
  Under my point of view they are sooooo far away from Fiber based 
  prints. 

  Tomorrow I will get some photos done on a LAMBDA Laser Lab. With R4 
  photographic process and on a luster paper I cross my hands that 
  finally I will get some decent results (I would be happy if they are 
  decent not even good).

  I know that 2200 with IP5 might be the solution but as I said my 
  wallet is too tired. 

  So....I don't know....may be Epson will come out with great B&W inks 
  some day. The resolution is there, the papers are there......the 
  INKS ARE NOT THERE. 

  By the way...I am photojournalist. I have been developing my B&W 
  photo for 6 years now. And I think that a good fiber or even RC is 
  light years ahead of any ink print I have seen so far. That's only 
  my radical point of view. I guess some will support this statement 
  and some will think I am crazy. 

  I can only tell you I am frustrated.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Friday, November 29, 2002, 7:02:06 AM, Bob_Michaels wrote:

B> What does "assigned profile dot gain 20%" do? I'm new at this. I've
B> been using the same settings as you for black only on my 1280 with
B> EAM, except for the "assigned profile" Does this have any impact on
B> the printed image, or just what you see on the screen? 
B> Bob Michaels


Bob,

I believe he means in PS (after converting to grayscale) go to Image
--> Mode --> Assign Profile... then set it for 20% Dot Gain.

BTW, I followed this thread with interest this week and finally just
got around to trying it on my 870. I printed an image I had already
printed out on EAM, PR and Eclipse Satine with my 1160 and FS-N inks
with a Randall curve. Although I am impressed by the results of my 870
with Clayton's BO workflow (as I expected awful) I unfortunately found
it MUCH too grainy and the 1160 quadtone prints blew the 870 BO out of
the water in terms of tonality and smoothness. At arms length and on
letter size paper I guess not too bad but still no comparison to true
quadtone I'm afraid.

I will try it again however with a friend's 1280 and set for 2880 dpi
and see what results.

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

L i n k s  t o  m y  g a l l e r i e s:
http://fujirangefinder.com/document.php?id=246

Hello Richard,

>the 1160 quadtone prints blew the 870 BO out of
>the water in terms of tonality and smoothness. At 
>arms length and on letter size paper I guess not 
>too bad but still no comparison to true quadtone 
>I'm afraid.

I agree and would never suggest otherwise.  The point I have been
making all along is that BO printing can be a good alternative, or
temporary plateau, while the technology continues to evolve.  There
are two important issues in all of this, and I would like to restate
them here in case any new readers come across this.

1) There are still unsolved problems with color shifting and fading
with the full ink sets.  These problems are negligible with BO
printing when using a good ink like the MIS black.  I would not be
comfortable selling a full ink print as it stands today because it
simply is going to change color.  But I would have no hesitation
selling a BO print.  

2) There are many people who, for whatever reason, cannot find success
with all the ink/paper/driver/RIP/curve/workflow issues that one has
to fight through in order to do this.  I went through an incredible
struggle, and the few good prints I managed to make turned an ugly
color in a few months.  Then I found BO printing and am now making
stable prints with relative ease that other people, including
experienced photographers, are dropping their jaw over.  Printing is
now once again pleasurable and fulfilling.  So for me BO printing is
an excellent technique to use until the technology improves.

My motivation for promoting BO printing in the forum is that it is
fairly common to see people in dispair and frustration desperately
begging for help, and I want to offer them an alternative which may
keep them from giving up.

If anyone is in doubt that BO prints can be beautiful, my offer still
stands: send me two 1st class stamps and I will send you a signed 4x5
BO print on PhotoRag paper, and you can see the kind of results I'm
getting.  My address is below.

Thanks, Richard, for your comments.

Regards, - cj


Clayton Jones
PO Box 7596
West Palm Beach, FL 33405

Friday, November 29, 2002, 6:13:36 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

CJ> Hello Richard,

>>the 1160 quadtone prints blew the 870 BO out of
>>the water in terms of tonality and smoothness. At 
>>arms length and on letter size paper I guess not 
>>too bad but still no comparison to true quadtone 
>>I'm afraid.

CJ> I agree and would never suggest otherwise.  The point I have been
CJ> making all along is that BO printing can be a good alternative, or
CJ> temporary plateau, while the technology continues to evolve.  There
CJ> are two important issues in all of this, and I would like to restate
CJ> them here in case any new readers come across this.

CJ> 1) There are still unsolved problems with color shifting and fading
CJ> with the full ink sets.  These problems are negligible with BO
CJ> printing when using a good ink like the MIS black.  I would not be
CJ> comfortable selling a full ink print as it stands today because it
CJ> simply is going to change color.  But I would have no hesitation
CJ> selling a BO print.  

CJ> 2) There are many people who, for whatever reason, cannot find success
CJ> with all the ink/paper/driver/RIP/curve/workflow issues that one has
CJ> to fight through in order to do this.  I went through an incredible
CJ> struggle, and the few good prints I managed to make turned an ugly
CJ> color in a few months.  Then I found BO printing and am now making
CJ> stable prints with relative ease that other people, including
CJ> experienced photographers, are dropping their jaw over.  Printing is
CJ> now once again pleasurable and fulfilling.  So for me BO printing is
CJ> an excellent technique to use until the technology improves.

CJ> My motivation for promoting BO printing in the forum is that it is
CJ> fairly common to see people in dispair and frustration desperately
CJ> begging for help, and I want to offer them an alternative which may
CJ> keep them from giving up.

CJ> If anyone is in doubt that BO prints can be beautiful, my offer still
CJ> stands: send me two 1st class stamps and I will send you a signed 4x5
CJ> BO print on PhotoRag paper, and you can see the kind of results I'm
CJ> getting.  My address is below.

CJ> Thanks, Richard, for your comments.

CJ> Regards, - cj


CJ> Clayton Jones
CJ> PO Box 7596
CJ> West Palm Beach, FL 33405


Clayton,

And thanks for your points in reply.  I hope I was not seeming to
disparage your BO workflow ;-)

I agree you make some excellent points and using that workflow with
just MIS black could be an excellent and "safer" alternative, color-
and fade-shift-wise.

I am very happy with my 1160 and quadtone set-up. However a friend of
mine, who recently purchased a 1280 for color and B&W (and how no
desire right now to get a 2nd printer of quadtones going) has been
quite dissatisfied with the green and magenta toned B&W prints she's
getting from her 1280. I will be seeing her tomorrow and will
definitely be trying out your BO workflow as an excellent,
viewing-distance alternative that I'm sure she'll be quite pleased
with.

Thanks again.  I think I may just take you up on your offer....

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

L i n k s  t o  m y  g a l l e r i e s:
http://fujirangefinder.com/document.php?id=246

I am using the VM inks in my 1160 and have to say that I get great 
tonality in my prints.  Yes, the prints are not as sharp as a glazed 
fiber print, but I feel that in most cases that the control of 
tonality makes up for it.  

Sorry to say it, but you must be doing something wrong if your prints 
look like a "drawing"... unfortunately I don't know what it is, but I 
can suggest that you confirm that your monitor and printer are 
reasonably well calibrated (which they obviously are not).  I started 
with stepwedges and got it close with adjustment curves and then 
worked with representative images and added more adjustment curves... 
and still it isn't perfect, but I do have a good feel for how an 
image will print by looking at my screen and am very happy with my 
results.

I have gotten solarization/drawing type output when I lose a color, 
are you sure you are getting ink from all nozzles?  

mark

...
>   Yes I am frustrated. I have bee searching for the holy Grail 
...
>   I also bought MIS Quadtones VM and worked with Paul Roark 
workflow 
>   with Epson Archival Matte and Crane's Museo. I tell you I was 
never 
>   more dissapointed in my life. Now I understand that so many 
>   galleries don't want inkjet prints. It's not about longevity, 
it's 
>   about quality. Pictures with MIS and EAM are drawings not photos. 
>   Under my point of view they are sooooo far away from Fiber based 
>   prints. 
...
>   By the way...I am photojournalist. I have been developing my B&W 
>   photo for 6 years now. And I think that a good fiber or even RC 
is 
>   light years ahead of any ink print I have seen so far. That's 
only 
>   my radical point of view. I guess some will support this 
statement 
>   and some will think I am crazy. 
> 
>   I can only tell you I am frustrated.
...

Hello Richard,

Thanks for your reply.  

>...recently purchased a 1280 for color and B&W (and has no
>desire right now to get a 2nd printer of quadtones going) 
>has been quite dissatisfied with the green and magenta toned 
>B&W prints she's getting... I will be seeing her tomorrow and 
>will definitely be trying out your BO workflow

This works very nicely.  I currently have a color cartridge in my 870
and can switch between color and BO prints any time, without any
difficulties.

BTW, I visited your web site and really like the Mt. Diablo series. 
What great light!  Must have been very exciting.  

Regards, - cj

I just recieved my 1280 a few months ago and loaded it with MIS VM and 
down loaded the curves off the DigitalBW files and the MIS site. I've 
started with EAM. While I am not a big fan of mat paper - I never used 
the mat format in the wet darkroom, MIS VM and EAM do produce very nice 
highlights. Prints made with this combination give the same "glow" in 
the highlights as silver prints. Prints of images that are about the 
highlights do as well as the silver printed version ( what I've been 
doing is scanning my 4x5 negs so I have prints in both formats ). But 
prints of images about shadows and darks don't fair as well in the ink 
jet world as they do in the silver print world - at least I can't seem 
to make them.

Where I am disapointed is in the shadows. While the shadow details are 
very nice, there are no deep shadows.  I may try the Gen 4 black as 
someone suggested. I've got a few different papers on order to try, but 
I wanted to get good results on one paper that was pretty standard 
before I started experimenting.

Following the chatter on this list this problem seems to be more of an 
issue with the papers than any other single factor. But I'm pleased 
enough that I'm going to keep plugging.

Truman

>  Hi fellows 
>
>
>  Yes I am frustrated. I have bee searching for the holy Grail for so 
>  long and finally I am close to give up. After many tries I am still 
>  very far from a decent B&W photo. I have not tried 2200 yet and some 
>  people find the result quite good but I don't think I would get rid 
>  of the terrible metamerism that ALL printer suffer. 
>
>  Some say That Image Print 5 solves the problem. May be but after 
>  spending so much money on printers,inks and papers I think I have to 
>  put a limit on my spendings. My girlfriend is already going crazy 
>  with all the money that I have pulled out in my holy task. 
>
>  After trying different papers on HP and Epson ( HP designjet 10ps 
>  and EPSON 1290 ) I can say that they badly suffer from 
>  metamerism...even if I print only black ink. Both printer have a 
>  nice resolution and make stuning colour pictures but not in B&W when 
>  you have a nice neutral print under tungsten light it get an awful 
>  green cast under daylight. This happens also with only black ink. By 
>  the way of all the combinations I tried...1290 only black ink with 
>  Premium Semigloss Photo Paper gives the best result, second is Color 
>  Life and third Premium Glossy photo. But the black ink is not 
>  metamerism free so again it's not an option for me. Also with only 
>  black ink you get lots of dots on highlight areas.
>
>  With colour ink metamerism is even worse.......but you get better 
>  transitions and no dots.
>
>  I also bought MIS Quadtones VM and worked with Paul Roark workflow 
>  with Epson Archival Matte and Crane's Museo. I tell you I was never 
>  more dissapointed in my life. Now I understand that so many 
>  galleries don't want inkjet prints. It's not about longevity, it's 
>  about quality. Pictures with MIS and EAM are drawings not photos. 
>  Under my point of view they are sooooo far away from Fiber based 
>  prints. 
>
>  Tomorrow I will get some photos done on a LAMBDA Laser Lab. With R4 
>  photographic process and on a luster paper I cross my hands that 
>  finally I will get some decent results (I would be happy if they are 
>  decent not even good).
>
>  I know that 2200 with IP5 might be the solution but as I said my 
>  wallet is too tired. 
>
>  So....I don't know....may be Epson will come out with great B&W inks 
>  some day. The resolution is there, the papers are there......the 
>  INKS ARE NOT THERE. 
>
>  By the way...I am photojournalist. I have been developing my B&W 
>  photo for 6 years now. And I think that a good fiber or even RC is 
>  light years ahead of any ink print I have seen so far. That's only 
>  my radical point of view. I guess some will support this statement 
>  and some will think I am crazy. 
>
>  I can only tell you I am frustrated.
>
>
>
>
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>

A  business associate had some of my prints mounted on a rigid substrate at 
Costco.  She doesn't know how it was done, but I must say that I was 
impressed with the overall look.  The finished product is about 3/8ths 
thick and the image is overlaid with a tough plastic coating.  It appears 
to be an excellent alternative to framing gift prints.

Does anybody have any further information on this process?  How large a 
size can they deal with, for example.

Peter McLennan

Bob,

Not to jump in for Clayton, but it means to set your gray working space
(Edit|Color Settings) to Dot Gain 20%, or convert
to this profile just prior to printing. I was getting very poor results on
my 1160 using a Gray Gamma 2.2 profile, but, now that
I'm using DG 20, I'm getting WYSIWYG results.

Alan Huntley

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bob_Michaels" <Bob@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:02 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black-Only Settings Correction


> What does "assigned profile dot gain 20%" do? I'm new at this. I've
> been using the same settings as you for black only on my 1280 with
> EAM, except for the "assigned profile" Does this have any impact on
> the printed image, or just what you see on the screen?
> Bob Michaels
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:
> > I made a mistake in the previous list of Black-Only settings.  The
> > assigned profile was wrong.  My apologies for the mistake.  Here is
> > the correct list, which gives close to true WYSIWYG with EAM and PR.
> > This technique seems to require the 6-ink printers with 4 picoliter
> > ink droplets.
> >
> >  - scanned neg in PS7 in Gray Scale mode
> >  - assigned profile is Dot Gain 20%
> >  - print using Epson driver with these settings
> >      - Ink = black
> >      - resolution = Photo 1440 dpi
> >      - High Speed is checked
> >      - color control = gamma 2.2
> >      - contrast/brightness sliders are at 0
> >      - paper setting is Matte Paper - Heavyweight
> >
> >
> > Regards, - cj

Richard,

If I may respectfully add my $.02...

I've been playing around with BO printing for a few weeks now and getting
very acceptable results on my 1160 with VM black. I had
a rather bumpy start due to the use of Gray Gamma 2.2 in PS which, quite
honestly, produced awful prints. Now that I'm using Dot Gain 20%,
I am able to produce prints on EAM that are nearly indistinguishable from my
full scale VM prints. Are dots visible? Sure. But, to my
aging eyes only with a magnifying glass or loupe. My teenage daughter can
see the dots with an unaided eye, but only with her nose nearly
touching the paper! <g> I will be experimenting with BO printing on PR
within the next week. I believe, also, that another unexpected benefit
from BO printing comes from the actual paper "showing through" the higher
values. This gives the print a unique look not seen in the usual
full scale VM prints.

In my short experience with BO printing, so far, I see it fitting in to my
personal printing repertoire as yet another option to be used when
the image demands the unique capabilities of this style of printing. It will
not replace my typical VM quads, but I will be using it when appropriate.

Also, I fully agree with Clayton that BO printing is a very viable
alternative for any newcomer to B&W digital printing, or for anyone who just
doesn't want the "fuss, muss, and headaches" of quadtone printing...at
least, initially.

Alan Huntley

----- Original Message -----

From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:13 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black-Only Settings Correction


> Hello Richard,
>
> >the 1160 quadtone prints blew the 870 BO out of
> >the water in terms of tonality and smoothness. At
> >arms length and on letter size paper I guess not
> >too bad but still no comparison to true quadtone
> >I'm afraid.
>
> I agree and would never suggest otherwise.  The point I have been
> making all along is that BO printing can be a good alternative, or
> temporary plateau, while the technology continues to evolve.  There
> are two important issues in all of this, and I would like to restate
> them here in case any new readers come across this.
>
> 1) There are still unsolved problems with color shifting and fading
> with the full ink sets.  These problems are negligible with BO
> printing when using a good ink like the MIS black.  I would not be
> comfortable selling a full ink print as it stands today because it
> simply is going to change color.  But I would have no hesitation
> selling a BO print.
>
> 2) There are many people who, for whatever reason, cannot find success
> with all the ink/paper/driver/RIP/curve/workflow issues that one has
> to fight through in order to do this.  I went through an incredible
> struggle, and the few good prints I managed to make turned an ugly
> color in a few months.  Then I found BO printing and am now making
> stable prints with relative ease that other people, including
> experienced photographers, are dropping their jaw over.  Printing is
> now once again pleasurable and fulfilling.  So for me BO printing is
> an excellent technique to use until the technology improves.
>
> My motivation for promoting BO printing in the forum is that it is
> fairly common to see people in dispair and frustration desperately
> begging for help, and I want to offer them an alternative which may
> keep them from giving up.
>
> If anyone is in doubt that BO prints can be beautiful, my offer still
> stands: send me two 1st class stamps and I will send you a signed 4x5
> BO print on PhotoRag paper, and you can see the kind of results I'm
> getting.  My address is below.
>
> Thanks, Richard, for your comments.
>
> Regards, - cj

Alan:

Thanks. I tried the DG 20% and can't tell much difference in my 1280
but really can't tell much difference except the prints are darker.
I'm new at this was was pretty happy with my BO prints before. I just
mentally compensated for the fact that the printer was lighter than
the monitor showed. 

Is anyone aware of where to find simple explanations of what DG 20%,
Gamma 2.2, and things like that actually do? Somehow they cause the
computer to manipulate dots, I just want to know in what manner. I do
much better when I have some conceptual grasp of what I'm doing. 

Bob Michaels

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "A. Huntley" <leicam6@a...>
wrote:
> Bob,
> 
> Not to jump in for Clayton, but it means to set your gray working space
> (Edit|Color Settings) to Dot Gain 20%, or convert
> to this profile just prior to printing. I was getting very poor
results on

> my 1160 using a Gray Gamma 2.2 profile, but, now that
> I'm using DG 20, I'm getting WYSIWYG results.
> 
> Alan Huntley
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob_Michaels" <Bob@B...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:02 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black-Only Settings Correction
> 
> 
> > What does "assigned profile dot gain 20%" do? I'm new at this. I've
> > been using the same settings as you for black only on my 1280 with
> > EAM, except for the "assigned profile" Does this have any impact on
> > the printed image, or just what you see on the screen?
> > Bob Michaels

Bob,

Take a look at the book Real World Photoshop. It demystifies 
most of this stuff (even if you don't use Photoshop). At least, 
it did for me.

- David

= = = Original message = = =
[snip]
Is anyone aware of where to find simple explanations of what 
DG 20%,
Gamma 2.2, and things like that actually do? Somehow they cause 
the
computer to manipulate dots, I just want to know in what manner. 
I do
much better when I have some conceptual grasp of what I'm doing. 


Bob Michaels


___________________________________________________________
Sent by ePrompter, the premier email notification software.
Free download at http://www.ePrompter.com.

Hello Bob,

>Is anyone aware of where to find simple explanations of what DG 20%,
>Gamma 2.2, and things like that actually do? Somehow they cause the
>computer to manipulate dots, I just want to know in what manner. I
>do much better when I have some conceptual grasp of what I'm doing. 

I just posted a new thread with tips for BO Printing with EAM and PR
which distils some of this into an understandable (I hope) scenario. 
It doesn't explain what PS is doing under the hood, but at least gives
a usable technique that makes some sense.


Regards, - cj

Real World Photoshop was also recommended by Richard Sintchak. I guess
I must add it to my library. 
Thanks,
Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., <david_bookbinder@s...> wrote:

> Bob,
> 
> Take a look at the book Real World Photoshop. It demystifies 
> most of this stuff (even if you don't use Photoshop). At least, 
> it did for me.
> 
> - David
> 
> = = = Original message = = =
> [snip]
> Is anyone aware of where to find simple explanations of what 
> DG 20%,
> Gamma 2.2, and things like that actually do? Somehow they cause 
> the
> computer to manipulate dots, I just want to know in what manner. 
> I do
> much better when I have some conceptual grasp of what I'm doing. 
> 
> 
> Bob Michaels

Clayton:
Your post ties a bunch of things together. My short term personal
experience and many other posts resulted in a lot of unrelated data
that I knew somehow should fit into one picture. 
Bob Michaels
Apopka FL

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:

> Hello Bob,
> 
> >Is anyone aware of where to find simple explanations of what DG 20%,
> >Gamma 2.2, and things like that actually do? Somehow they cause the
> >computer to manipulate dots, I just want to know in what manner. I
> >do much better when I have some conceptual grasp of what I'm doing. 
> 
> I just posted a new thread with tips for BO Printing with EAM and PR
> which distils some of this into an understandable (I hope) scenario. 
> It doesn't explain what PS is doing under the hood, but at least gives
> a usable technique that makes some sense.
> 
> 
> Regards, - cj

I had this same problem.  I am using WinXP Pro, Epson 1160 and VM 
inks with Paul R's work flow.  I could not get a good print and they 
looked like drawings.  I finally solved the problem.

The latest Epson driver was not printing correctly.  So I installed 
the driver that came on the original WinXP Pro CD.  That driver 
prints perfectly.  I do not know why the version of the Epson driver 
makes a difference, but it does.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> I am using the VM inks in my 1160 and have to say that I get great 
> tonality in my prints.  Yes, the prints are not as sharp as a 
glazed 
> fiber print, but I feel that in most cases that the control of 
> tonality makes up for it.  
> 
> Sorry to say it, but you must be doing something wrong if your 
prints 
> look like a "drawing"... unfortunately I don't know what it is, but 
I 
> can suggest that you confirm that your monitor and printer are 
> reasonably well calibrated (which they obviously are not).  I 
started 
> with stepwedges and got it close with adjustment curves and then 
> worked with representative images and added more adjustment 
curves... 
> and still it isn't perfect, but I do have a good feel for how an 
> image will print by looking at my screen and am very happy with my 
> results.
> 
> I have gotten solarization/drawing type output when I lose a color, 
> are you sure you are getting ink from all nozzles?  
> 
> mark
> 
> ...
> >   Yes I am frustrated. I have bee searching for the holy Grail 
> ...
> >   I also bought MIS Quadtones VM and worked with Paul Roark 
> workflow 
> >   with Epson Archival Matte and Crane's Museo. I tell you I was 
> never 
> >   more dissapointed in my life. Now I understand that so many 
> >   galleries don't want inkjet prints. It's not about longevity, 
> it's 
> >   about quality. Pictures with MIS and EAM are drawings not 
photos. 
> >   Under my point of view they are sooooo far away from Fiber 
based 
> >   prints. 
> ...
> >   By the way...I am photojournalist. I have been developing my 
B&W 

> >   photo for 6 years now. And I think that a good fiber or even RC 
> is 
> >   light years ahead of any ink print I have seen so far. That's 
> only 
> >   my radical point of view. I guess some will support this 
> statement 
> >   and some will think I am crazy. 
> > 
> >   I can only tell you I am frustrated.
> ...