Digital BW, The Print

I don't think Stan meant NOT manipulating images necessarily means limiting
your vision, just that if you *wish* to do so and elect not to because of a
self-imposed rule against using such tools, you are limiting your vision. I
may be inferring a bit here on his behalf (as informed by my own feelings on
the matter), but that's my guess.

Cheers,
Matthew Born, who successfully turned a roll of 120 film into a very long
string of suddenly exposed land fill yesterday.

> Stan,
> 
>> Is photography not art?
> 
> Well, yes and no...  Some is, some isn't.
> 
>> Why limit your vision?
> 
> Who said anything about limiting vision?  If YOUR vision requires you to do
> heavy manipulations, then that's your vision, and that, perhaps, works well
> for you.  If mine does not require it, and I achieve my goal without it,
> then why is that a problem?
> 
> Austin

Exactly!
 
Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops

215 751-8320
sshire@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Born [mailto:mborn@...] 
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:02 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Ah, the digital argument...
 
I don't think Stan meant NOT manipulating images necessarily means
limiting
your vision, just that if you *wish* to do so and elect not to because
of a
self-imposed rule against using such tools, you are limiting your
vision. I
may be inferring a bit here on his behalf (as informed by my own
feelings on
the matter), but that's my guess.

Cheers,
Matthew Born, who successfully turned a roll of 120 film into a very
long
string of suddenly exposed land fill yesterday.


> Stan,
> 
>> Is photography not art?
> 
> Well, yes and no...  Some is, some isn't.
> 
>> Why limit your vision?
> 
> Who said anything about limiting vision?  If YOUR vision requires you
to do
> heavy manipulations, then that's your vision, and that, perhaps, works
well
> for you.  If mine does not require it, and I achieve my goal without
it,
> then why is that a problem?
> 
> Austin







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Matthew,

> I don't think Stan meant NOT manipulating images necessarily means
> limiting
> your vision, just that if you *wish* to do so and elect not to because
> of a
> self-imposed rule against using such tools, you are limiting your
> vision.

Self imposing rules is perhaps limiting one's vision, but that is very
circumstantial.  Having discipline/vision/knowledge/experience to acquire
the image one wants on the film, not needing to do any manipulations in PS
to achieve that original vision, isn't limiting one's vision.  In fact, it
is realizing it.

Regards,

Austin

> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: 6 Dec 2002 17:26:49 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Digest Number 1169
> 
> Self imposing rules is perhaps limiting one's vision, but that is very
> circumstantial.  Having discipline/vision/knowledge/experience to acquire
> the image one wants on the film, not needing to do any manipulations in PS
> to achieve that original vision, isn't limiting one's vision.  In fact, it
> is realizing it.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin

Austin:

I would never judge an image based on technique.  A good picture, as Mark
says, looks "right."  I couldn't put it any better than that.

With Photoshop I see ways that I can expand my vision as an extension of the
way I printed b/w in the darkroom, and significantly, use these techniques
on color images also.

I am also interested in animating my images in After Effects.

But thats me....I can appreciate your point of view and do not consider that
yours is any less relevant than mine.  It is very close to the techniques of
shooting slide film we used in the 70's and 80's.


Andy

Hi Andy,

> > Self imposing rules is perhaps limiting one's vision, but that is very
> > circumstantial.  Having discipline/vision/knowledge/experience
> to acquire
> > the image one wants on the film, not needing to do any
> manipulations in PS
> > to achieve that original vision, isn't limiting one's vision.
> In fact, it
> > is realizing it.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Austin
>
> Austin:
>
> I would never judge an image based on technique.

No, nor have I ever said that I would either!  I certainly would judge one's
technique based on one's technique though ;-)

> But thats me....I can appreciate your point of view and do not
> consider that
> yours is any less relevant than mine.  It is very close to the
> techniques of
> shooting slide film we used in the 70's and 80's.

Thanks.  But...I believe getting the image as good as you can on the film,
or with the digital capture is paramount.  What you leave on the table
(information that was in the scene, but wasn't captured on the film/CCD,
like tonality or resolution etc.) is lost forever.  No matter how good you
are with post processing the image...

Regards,

Austin

I find my pursuit of some sort of artistic expression to be in quite a few 
directions at once. My taste is perhaps too varied. But I have also always 
admired those who choose a few methods and tools and thoroughly explore those 
to the fullest, not allowing the apparent "narrowness" to limit creativity.

In my early digital graphics classes one of the exercises was to produce ten 
pleasing pieces using only circles. Nothing else allowed. Rather than 
limiting creativity, the exercise was designed to expand it. When I see 
artists using self imposed "limits" I think of that exercise and realize that 
they have simply decided to channel their creativity in a direction that 
doesn't need many different tools or techniques to excel, a direction that is 
just as free in it's own way. 

For myself, I have chosen to embrace digital methods and tools as legitimate 
means to my creative ends. I also continue to work with those smelly 
chemicals in addition. Whatever path gets me where I want to be. For me there 
is no digital argument, and I'm always mystified by those who need to have 
one. Who knows, maybe watercolorists, oil painters and acrylic artists argue 
over which of their media is the real deal, the Holy Grail of self 
expression.


Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The art of photography is to become the master of the image rather than 
the master of the tools. The master of the tools is a technician, the 
master of the image is the artist.

Truman

knightmaer35@... wrote:

>
>In my early digital graphics classes one of the exercises was to produce ten 
>pleasing pieces using only circles. Nothing else allowed. Rather than 
>limiting creativity, the exercise was designed to expand it. When I see 
>artists using self imposed "limits" I think of that exercise and realize that 
>they have simply decided to channel their creativity in a direction that 
>doesn't need many different tools or techniques to excel, a direction that is 
>just as free in it's own way. 
>  
>

Hi Truman,

> The art of photography is to become the master of the image rather than 
> the master of the tools. The master of the tools is a technician, the 
> master of the image is the artist.

To quote a famous Jerry "it takes both" ;-)

Regards,

Austin

Jerry Garcia?

Truman

Austin Franklin wrote:

>Hi Truman,
>
>  
>
>>The art of photography is to become the master of the image rather than 
>>the master of the tools. The master of the tools is a technician, the 
>>master of the image is the artist.
>>    
>>
>
>To quote a famous Jerry "it takes both" ;-)
>
>Regards,
>
>Austin
>
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Who's Jerry Garcia?  I know who Cherry Garcia is...oh wait, I know who Jerry
Garcia is...he made some of the ties I have ;-)

> Jerry Garcia?
>
> Truman
>
> Austin Franklin wrote:
>
> >Hi Truman,
> >
> >
> >
> >>The art of photography is to become the master of the image rather than
> >>the master of the tools. The master of the tools is a technician, the
> >>master of the image is the artist.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >To quote a famous Jerry "it takes both" ;-)
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Austin

And one hell of a guitar - not to mention banjo picker. Vision and 
technique - the mark of an artist.  However, Dylan did it only with 
vision. Some say Cartier-Bression and Dorthea Lange did it without 
technique. With images as powerful as they captured, does a blocked 
highlight or dumped shadow detail make much difference?

 Ah, the eternal debate. Good for a long cold night.

Truman

Austin Franklin wrote:

>Who's Jerry Garcia?  I know who Cherry Garcia is...oh wait, I know who Jerry
>Garcia is...he made some of the ties I have ;-)
>
>  
>

Amen.

...and on the flip side, I always leave an exhibition of AA's work in 
total awe of his technique, but without a single image burned into my 
brain.

mark

...
> Vision and 
> technique - the mark of an artist.  However, Dylan did it only with 
> vision. Some say Cartier-Bression and Dorthea Lange did it without 
> technique. With images as powerful as they captured, does a blocked 
> highlight or dumped shadow detail make much difference?
...

> With images as powerful as they captured, does a blocked
> highlight or dumped shadow detail make much difference?

It depends on what type of "work" you do, and obviously, your goal.  I take,
at least in my opinion, fantastic images with a Polaroid SX-70, and have fun
doing it.  They are well framed, but blurry (fuzzy), and I'm sure exposed to
block something...but I like them.

Austin

More than a dozen. Took my wife to a Dylan concert in August for her
birthday. She loved it. His live concert actually made his recordings sound
good., well sort of.  Love Pat Garret and Billy the Kid but the rest is for
those of other tastes. And just love much of Ansel Adams work. The large
prints at his grand daughter's resturant at Mono Lake blew me away even
though was a fan of his for decades before. Two summers ago bought a reprint
or special print or whatever they call it from his gallery in Yosemite
(printed from his negatives). And many of his images are technically great
and with no spirit but lots of them speak in both "languages"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ah, the digital argument...


> Am glad I'm not alone. I bet there are dozens of people who actually
> think Dylan
> could sing!
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Austin Franklin wrote:
> >
> > > I just Love some of AA's images, and will never forget them. On the
> > > other hand, Dylan had made some of the worst musisc? I ever heard in
my
> > > life, along with the most obnoxious, terrible singing voice in the
> > > history of man. Different strokes for different folks.... :)
> > >
> > > Jer
> >
> > Ah, Jerry, another set of points you and I see eye to eye on ;-)
> >
> > Austin
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
> >
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keep them short.
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resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>

Always good to get this one running on the list :-))

No doubt the usual suspects will take up their positions... I have respect
for many of the views expressed here, even when I personally think they're
wrong :-))

It's a matter of getting out of your work what you want, sometimes I can go
into techy mode and worry about histograms and density, other times its only
a matter of creating an image that feels right and creates what I wanted
when I first took the picture.  I can live with appreciating the beauty of a
landscape and (as an ex-geologist) understanding rock and soil mechanics.

But not all can...

Recently I was showing a landscape to someone who was very enthusiastic, and
was able to read a depth and significance into the image in a way that had
previously eluded me. All this praise came to a sudden halt when they were
told that it was 'digital'.

The change was abrupt and total. I smiled pleasantly and agreed that yes,
perhaps I should do more to show that it was digital (!)  I then walked
away...


bye for now   

Keith Cooper


http://www.Northlight-images.co.uk
Tel +44 (0)116 291 9092  Mobile +44 (0)780 162 9397

Yes I have always respected AA's work and it will technically knock your 
socks. While I have some of his books and even have a print hanging on 
my wall, they are missing something - maybe passion. Adams was a master 
technician - none better. He gave us some wonderful tools.

I recently say a W Eugene Smith exhibit and there are many images burned 
in my mind from that day. The man caught the passion with his camera. 
The photos reach out and grab you. Not the greatest of all technicians, 
but good enough.

It would have been interesting to see how either of these master would 
have approached the digital age.

Truman

Mark Hahn wrote:

>Amen.
>
>...and on the flip side, I always leave an exhibition of AA's work in 
>total awe of his technique, but without a single image burned into my 
>brain.
>
>mark
>
>...
>  
>
>>Vision and 
>>technique - the mark of an artist.  However, Dylan did it only with 
>>vision. Some say Cartier-Bression and Dorthea Lange did it without 
>>technique. With images as powerful as they captured, does a blocked 
>>highlight or dumped shadow detail make much difference?
>>    
>>
>...
>
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In his bio, AA alluded to future generations using techniques to print his negs better than he (or his assistants) could.  My guess is that Gene Smith would have traded in his ferracyanide for Photoshop in a New York minute.  We'd probably have Richard Nixon looking down on Dr. Schweitzer by now...

  --Ken

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Truman Prevatt 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 9:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ah, the digital argument...


  Yes I have always respected AA's work and it will technically knock your 
  socks. While I have some of his books and even have a print hanging on 
  my wall, they are missing something - maybe passion. Adams was a master 
  technician - none better. He gave us some wonderful tools.

  I recently say a W Eugene Smith exhibit and there are many images burned 
  in my mind from that day. The man caught the passion with his camera. 
  The photos reach out and grab you. Not the greatest of all technicians, 
  but good enough.

  It would have been interesting to see how either of these master would 
  have approached the digital age.

  Truman

  Mark Hahn wrote:

  >Amen.
  >
  >...and on the flip side, I always leave an exhibition of AA's work in 
  >total awe of his technique, but without a single image burned into my 
  >brain.
  >
  >mark
  >
  >...
  >  
  >
  >>Vision and 
  >>technique - the mark of an artist.  However, Dylan did it only with 
  >>vision. Some say Cartier-Bression and Dorthea Lange did it without 
  >>technique. With images as powerful as they captured, does a blocked 
  >>highlight or dumped shadow detail make much difference?
  >>    
  >>
  >...
  >
  >
  >  
  >



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just Love some of AA's images, and will never forget them. On the
other hand, Dylan had made some of the worst musisc? I ever heard in my
life, along with the most obnoxious, terrible singing voice in the
history of man. Different strokes for different folks.... :)

Jer



"Mark Hahn " wrote:

> 
> Amen.
> 
> ...and on the flip side, I always leave an exhibition of AA's work in
> total awe of his technique, but without a single image burned into my
> brain.

> I just Love some of AA's images, and will never forget them. On the
> other hand, Dylan had made some of the worst musisc? I ever heard in my
> life, along with the most obnoxious, terrible singing voice in the
> history of man. Different strokes for different folks.... :)
> 
> Jer

Ah, Jerry, another set of points you and I see eye to eye on ;-)

Austin

Am glad I'm not alone. I bet there are dozens of people who actually
think Dylan 
could sing!

Jerry


Austin Franklin wrote:

> 
> > I just Love some of AA's images, and will never forget them. On the
> > other hand, Dylan had made some of the worst musisc? I ever heard in my
> > life, along with the most obnoxious, terrible singing voice in the
> > history of man. Different strokes for different folks.... :)
> >
> > Jer
> 
> Ah, Jerry, another set of points you and I see eye to eye on ;-)
> 
> Austin
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
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> 
> 
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No Dylan couldn't sing worth a damn. He had a message to get across and 
a generation longing for socal change to address - which he did.  To 
some extent that's what art is about. After he had is motorcycle 
accident, broke his neck, went through rehab, met Johney Cash (speaking 
of not being able to sing) went to Nashville, took singing lessons he 
wasn't bad.

Don't know if it was the broken neck, Johney Cash, singing lessons or 
Nashville that was the reason on his album "Nashville Skyline" he 
actually had a decent (not great but decent) voice.

Truman

Jerry Olson wrote:

>Am glad I'm not alone. I bet there are dozens of people who actually
>think Dylan 
>could sing!
>
>Jerry
>
>
>  
>

> More than a dozen. Took my wife to a Dylan concert in August for her
> birthday. She loved it.

Hum.  Either tone deaf, or quite inebriated I'd venture to guess ;-)

Well, I don't know.  Whenever some else sings one of his songs all the energy evaporates, sort of like Pat Boone or somebody.  And, if you watch the Pennybaker documentary, Don't Look Back, you'll hear Uncle Bob say he could hit every note that Caruso could.  So I guess that settles that.  Back OT a little, hooked up my MIS CFS today with the VM-S inkset.  The instructions need a little work, but it's set up and working.  The new Paul Roark curves work great.  The nw curve works great for my New Mexico photos, and the warm curve prints a great neutral b&w.  Plus some consistency at last with the big ink bottles.  The prints don't seem to move around that much (metamerism) in different lights.  Happy Happy.

  --Ken  

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Austin Franklin 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 2:16 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Ah, the digital argument...


  > I just Love some of AA's images, and will never forget them. On the
  > other hand, Dylan had made some of the worst musisc? I ever heard in my
  > life, along with the most obnoxious, terrible singing voice in the
  > history of man. Different strokes for different folks.... :)
  > 
  > Jer

  Ah, Jerry, another set of points you and I see eye to eye on ;-)

  Austin


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I bet there are dozens of people who actually think Dylan 
> could sing!

Many years ago I was among those who thought Dylan "sounded like a dog
with his hind leg caught in barbed wire", but in those days I never
really listened closely.  Later I came to have a real appreciation for
what he _did_ with his voice.  He used what he had with great
effectiveness, and communicated with a tremendous amount of
expression.

To me it is related to my current feelings about photography.  I have
been to Mark Tucker's web site several times to enjoy and study his
work.  I have for some years felt a tug to break out of the mode that
"good" photographs have to look like 
AA/Westons/Strand/Sexton/Bond/Tice, et al, all of which I love.  But
looking at the works of Ralph Gibson, Edward Boubat, Marc Riboud,
Imogen Cunningham, Laura Gilpen and many others reminds me there is
another world out there.  Yet when I go out "cruizin for snaps" (Fred
Picker quote) I find myself, sometimes unconsciously evaluating what
to stop for in the former mode.

I recently came across a photo web site filled with the most gorgeous
work, yet I had almost a feeling of dispair as I looked because it was
the same old acceptable subject matter

- Falls and mountains in Yosmite and other Sierra areas  
- Dunes at Death Valley
- Wagon wheel at Bodie
- Old church doors
- White clapboard siding in stark sunlight
- rivers winding into the sunset with Tetons in background

I understand it.  You can be so in love with a style that you,
consciously or unconsciously, try to emulate it.  It doesn't mean
you're evil.  But there's other life out there...

I don't think Mark Tucker has broken out of the mold - I don't think
he was ever in it (Mark, correct me if I'm wrong).  I really like his
work - very refreshing.  I love doing landscape work, among other
things, and probaby will continue.  But I hope I can bring something
unique to it.  And if I ever find myself in Bodie I promise I will not
photograph the wagon wheel.

One hope I have for the upcoming generation of full-frame digi cams
like the 14n and Ds1 (I'm assuming that someday I'll use something
like this) is that in getting away from film I'll escape the fetters
which always lurk in my mind about how many pics I'm shooting and
what's it going to cost in time, effort and money.   I want to feel
free to shoot like crazy whenever I feel moved to, without evaluating
whether it is worth the investment.  I feel like I'm on the cusp of a
big change in how I photograph, and certainly getting into digital
printing is part of it.  I am eagerly looking forward to
the changes.  Bring it on.

Regards, - cj

I one course I had, I took a very good photograph, it was extremely well 
composed, the exposure was correct and the lighting was wonderful.  I 
took it with a 6x7 so had good tonality to work with and spend hours 
making a fantistic 8x10 print. I also took some other stuff, some really 
off the wall stuff. Some stuff I really thought was cool. I worked up 
one of those but not as hard.

Then I hang both on the wall in class and the instructor looks at my 
waterfall and says - that's not yours. Someone else took that. If you 
want to retake the photos of others, you need to show or say something 
unique - otherwise you are wasting your time. He looked at my off the 
wall photograph and said this showed more emotion and expression than I 
could ever get out of the waterfall because it was mine and it showed it 
was mine. 

The harderst thing in art may be to become your own person, express 
yourself - not express what you think is safe. Retaking AA or Weston is 
safe - moving out on our owns is scary.

Truman

Clayton Jones wrote:

>
>I recently came across a photo web site filled with the most gorgeous
>work, yet I had almost a feeling of dispair as I looked because it was
>the same old acceptable subject matter
>
>- Falls and mountains in Yosmite and other Sierra areas  
>- Dunes at Death Valley
>- Wagon wheel at Bodie
>- Old church doors
>- White clapboard siding in stark sunlight
>- rivers winding into the sunset with Tetons in background
>
>I understand it.  You can be so in love with a style that you,
>consciously or unconsciously, try to emulate it.  It doesn't mean
>you're evil.  But there's other life out there...
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clayton, this reminds me of what Professor Bogie said at our first print
critique 
at Brooks.  "Don't ever bring me a print of a wagon wheel". Ever. I
don't care how great the quality is, I don't want to see it. 

Sure enough, the last day of class someone brought in a fairly nice
picture of a wagon wheel, all mounted on a nice board. Bogie walked over
to it, picked it up, and tore it into little bits, threw it in the waste
basket, and went on with the class like nothing had happened. He just
hated wagon wheels.

Jerry

Jerry,

>...picked it up, and tore it into little bits, threw it in the waste
>basket, and went on with the class like nothing had happened. He
>just hated wagon wheels.

Good story.  BTW, I forgot to add something to the list of what I saw
at that web site:  cypress roots and kelp at Pt Lobos.  

Regards, - cj

Hi Clayton, 

I know a lot of people are tired of these same old type of subjects, but
I still love them. I only have visited Weston Beach, Point Lobos, and
Big Sur 5 times in my life, and only stayed a few days.  I'd love to
spend months at each place. Believe me the pictures you can get there
are much more artistic (To Me) than the same old North Dakota Landscapes
I always shoot. I'm getting REALLY tired of them. I just happen to love
that type of subject, and so rarely get to shoot it.  Bogie got so many
wagon wheel prints when he first started teaching, he just couldn't take
it any more. 

With me, it would take a DAMN fine North Dakota type landscape to
impress me any more. I have just shot too many of them, and am tired of
them. I have never cared for street photography. Don't know why, I just
felt terribly uncomfortable shoving my camera in a strangers face I guess.

I haven't forgotten about sending you a raw D60 file. I'm waiting for a
warmer, sunny day to shoot something. It's been cold and windy here for
quite a few days, but it's supposed to warm up a bit this week.

Will you be able to open a raw D60 File, or should I open it and save it
untouched in a photoshop file?

Jerry

Well, remember what Edward Weston said:  If you don't know what to photograph, look down at your feet.  Actually, I never could figure out what that meant, but it sounds pretty profound.  I've said that with the right Light, I could make a good picture of our state capitol (Oklahoma). I've since recanted, but the thought is good.  Try northern New Mexico when the Light is good (Spring, before school lets out).  Just stay away from those moradas unless you're carrying some serious heat.

  --Ken

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 9:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ah, the digital argument...


  Hi Clayton, 

  I know a lot of people are tired of these same old type of subjects, but
  I still love them. I only have visited Weston Beach, Point Lobos, and
  Big Sur 5 times in my life, and only stayed a few days.  I'd love to
  spend months at each place. Believe me the pictures you can get there
  are much more artistic (To Me) than the same old North Dakota Landscapes
  I always shoot. I'm getting REALLY tired of them. I just happen to love
  that type of subject, and so rarely get to shoot it.  Bogie got so many
  wagon wheel prints when he first started teaching, he just couldn't take
  it any more. 

  With me, it would take a DAMN fine North Dakota type landscape to
  impress me any more. I have just shot too many of them, and am tired of
  them. I have never cared for street photography. Don't know why, I just
  felt terribly uncomfortable shoving my camera in a strangers face I guess.

  I haven't forgotten about sending you a raw D60 file. I'm waiting for a
  warmer, sunny day to shoot something. It's been cold and windy here for
  quite a few days, but it's supposed to warm up a bit this week.

  Will you be able to open a raw D60 File, or should I open it and save it
  untouched in a photoshop file?

  Jerry

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jerry:

I've ridden my bicycle from San Fran down to Santa Barbara twice. Been
down the N CA and Oregon coast by bicycle as well. Just love Point
Lobos, Big Sur, those little farming towns, and eclectic beach
communities. Much more interesting than central FL. It's that
someplace new. But, I knew so many of the photos I took were already
on a postcard in the next little store I came to. I probably would be
just as enthralled by North Dakota. I spent a weekend in West Palm
Beach, where Clayton lives, and found it incredibly full of photo ops.
And I lived on a FL beach for 14 years. But, I bet Clayton finds other
places more interesting. 

I love street shooting. There's always a new face and personality out
there every day. I don't photograph strangers, just short term friends
I met only seconds ago. 

Bob Michaels
Apopka (now metro Orlando) FL

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Hi Clayton, 
> 
> I know a lot of people are tired of these same old type of subjects, but
> I still love them. I only have visited Weston Beach, Point Lobos, and
> Big Sur 5 times in my life, and only stayed a few days.  I'd love to
> spend months at each place. Believe me the pictures you can get there
> are much more artistic (To Me) than the same old North Dakota Landscapes
> I always shoot. I'm getting REALLY tired of them. I just happen to love
> that type of subject, and so rarely get to shoot it.  Bogie got so many
> wagon wheel prints when he first started teaching, he just couldn't take
> it any more. 
> 
> With me, it would take a DAMN fine North Dakota type landscape to
> impress me any more. I have just shot too many of them, and am tired of
> them. I have never cared for street photography. Don't know why, I just
> felt terribly uncomfortable shoving my camera in a strangers face I
guess.

> 
> I haven't forgotten about sending you a raw D60 file. I'm waiting for a
> warmer, sunny day to shoot something. It's been cold and windy here for
> quite a few days, but it's supposed to warm up a bit this week.
> 
> Will you be able to open a raw D60 File, or should I open it and save it
> untouched in a photoshop file?
> 
> Jerry

Hello Jerry,

>>>
I know a lot of people are tired of these same old type of subjects,
but I still love them. I only have visited Weston Beach, Point Lobos,
and Big Sur 5 times in my life, and only stayed a few days.  I'd love
to spend months at each place. Believe me the pictures you can get
there are much more artistic (To Me) than the same old North Dakota
Landscapes I always shoot. I'm getting REALLY tired of them. I just
happen to love that type of subject, and so rarely get to shoot it.  
>>>

I understand, and I'm the same way (except I think I could resist the
wagon wheel <g>), and I'm pretty well filled up on Florida landscapes.
My thoughts about "cruzin fer snaps" take me out west...I love the
desert.  I've been to the Mojave twice.  Am hoping to visit my brother
in S. CA this spring...

The thing that bothers me about the subject matter is that I feel a
tug to do other things as well and find it's difficult to get my brain
out of that mode of thinking.  As for my comments about that web site,
it was not only the subject matter but the style.  It seemed like I
was looking at work by someone who had looked at nothing but AA pics,
and that was their concept of what a pic should look like.

It was set up by a husband-wife team, both photogs, with his/her
sections.  The pics were gorgeous, beautifully printed, sensibly
priced, nicely designed web site, all top notch and very professional
- absolutely nothing to criticize.  There were bio pages with shots of
them at work.  They each had their Zone VI view cameras, wooden
tripods, Schneider lenses...all the right stuff.  There was even a
self portrait that was his own shadow on rock of him and his setup,
with hand holding the shutter release cable.

What gave me a sense of dispair was that it was all so utterly
predictable.  I had such a strong reaction to it that I went to back
Mark Tucker's site just balance it out.  What refreshing work (Mark,
my favorite is the kid in the baseball cap holding up the wet cat). 
But I also know that it would be just as defeating for me to try to
imitate his work.  Only Mark could make a plunger-cam and pull it
off.  

Point is, I don't want to imitate anyone, and I realize the danger is
that it's easy to do it unconsciously.  And one cannot just decide
they are going to do something different.  That's just another form of
imitation.  It has to be real and spring up from within.  All I can do
is continue to photograph and try to be aware of my thought processes
and be attuned to the subtle intuitions that come along.  It's easy to
get into a brute force mental mode and miss them.


>Bogie got so many wagon wheel prints when he first started teaching,
>he just couldn't take it any more. 

I understand <g>.


>I haven't forgotten about sending you a raw D60 file. 

That's fine, thanks.  No hurry about it.


>Will you be able to open a raw D60 File, or should I open it 
>and save it untouched in a photoshop file?

I'm not sure, I've never worked with a RAW file.  I have PS7, will
that handle it or must it be converted with software that comes with
the camera?

Regards, - cj

Hello Ken,

>Try northern New Mexico when the Light is good (Spring, before 
>school lets out).  Just stay away from those moradas unless 
>you're carrying some serious heat.

What's a morada?

Regards, - cj

Hello Bob,

>I spent a weekend in West Palm Beach, where Clayton lives, 
>and found it incredibly full of photo ops.
>And I lived on a FL beach for 14 years. But, I bet Clayton 
>finds other places more interesting. 

Yup.  Born and raised here.  See my reply to Jerry.  


Regards, - cj

This is true in any creative field. One of the biggest problems graduate 
students have when they come out is to shake off their teacher's (thesis 
adviser) influence. Your are so ingrained with his approach and his 
insights (while not nearly as honed ) to a problem that you 
unconsciously find yourself approaching it the same way.

You have to set you on a path and develop your own method and style. 
Otherwise you will make no progress. It is very difficult to do - 
especially if your adviser was a giant in the field.

When I was in graduate school, the department chairman invited over to 
dinner every PhD candidate that was finally getting out that year. I 
remember the conversation well, when after dinner he congratulated me 
and over brandy he said - while Phil (Hartman) is the best in his field 
he's not you and it time you find out who you are as a mathematician. It 
was difficult and it did take some time but it was necessary.

The same thing for photography - you have to chart your own course. It's 
not easy. What an ispriation it was for Weston to look in his vegetable 
garden when he got bored. Good photographs are everywhere - you just 
have to know how to find them. That's the hard part.

Truman

Clayton Jones wrote:

>Point is, I don't want to imitate anyone, and I realize the danger is
>that it's easy to do it unconsciously.  And one cannot just decide
>they are going to do something different.  That's just another form of
>imitation.  It has to be real and spring up from within.  All I can do
>is continue to photograph and try to be aware of my thought processes
>and be attuned to the subtle intuitions that come along.  It's easy to
>get into a brute force mental mode and miss them.
>
>  
>
>
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Clayton,

A morada is a chapel/meeting  house of Los Hermanos Penitentes, a religious sect of Northern New Mexico and Colorado. They indulge in flagellation and the like to expiate their sins and don't particularly approve of strangers lurking around their religious activities.

Roger 
(Corrales, New Mexico)

Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Clayton Jones <cj@...> [mailto:cj@...]
  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:51 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ah, the digital argument...


  Hello Ken,

  >Try northern New Mexico when the Light is good (Spring, before 
  >school lets out).  Just stay away from those moradas unless 
  >you're carrying some serious heat.

  What's a morada?

  Regards, - cj


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You unbelievers never understand the spanish faith :-)).
Aitor

El 9/12/02 17:13, "Roger L Sopher" <rlsopher@...> escribió:

> Hi Clayton,
> 
> A morada is a chapel/meeting  house of Los Hermanos Penitentes, a religious
> sect of Northern New Mexico and Colorado. They indulge in flagellation and the
> like to expiate their sins and don't particularly approve of strangers lurking
> around their religious activities.
> 
> Roger 
> (Corrales, New Mexico)
> 
> Roger L Sopher
> rlsopher@...
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...> [mailto:cj@...t]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:51 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ah, the digital argument...
> 
> 
> Hello Ken,
> 
>> Try northern New Mexico when the Light is good (Spring, before
>> school lets out).  Just stay away from those moradas unless
>> you're carrying some serious heat.
> 
> What's a morada?
> 
> Regards, - cj
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Hi Clayton.

You must have the D60 software to open it.  But I can open it and just
save it to a CD in Photoshop 7 format without making any adjustments.  I
never shoot raw, as I can't tell the difference between the least
compressed JPG file and the Raw file in actual use. Unless you make a
MAJOR curve adjustment.  Then Raw would be better. No difference in
sharpness. Raw files come in as slightly flat and muddy, but you can
make major adjustments with all tools. 

Say, these prints you were sending out for stamps. Were they 1280 and
black ink only?  I must have missed a couple of your posts. If so, what
settings did you use for this?  

Even though Ansel has shot Big Sur to death, I've only seen a dozen or
so of his photos. Mine aren't the same as his.  Also, its a big
seacoast. Except for one area, I don't even think I was at the same
place he was. I never did see his most famous rocks. Just like Yosemite.
I've seen most of his Yosemite pictures. Mine aren't the same. I don't
look for his tripod holes. They are new to me. And I like his subject
matter so much, I don't care if it's been done to death. I'm only
shooting this stuff for myself, as I don't sell many pictures.  Most
people that buy my stuff like the North Dakota Landscape. I did too,
when I first started shooting it.  But now, I don't have much interest
in it any more.

Jerry

> >I haven't forgotten about sending you a raw D60 file.
> 
> That's fine, thanks.  No hurry about it.
> 
> >Will you be able to open a raw D60 File, or should I open it
> >and save it untouched in a photoshop file?
> 
> I'm not sure, I've never worked with a RAW file.  I have PS7, will
> that handle it or must it be converted with software that comes with
> the camera?

Hello Jerry,

> save it to a CD in Photoshop 7 format without making any
adjustments. 

Ok, sounds fine. 

>I never shoot raw, as I can't tell the difference between the least
>compressed JPG file and the Raw file in actual use. 

Understood.

> Say, these prints you were sending out for stamps. Were they 1280
and
> black ink only?  I must have missed a couple of your posts. If so,
>what settings did you use for this?  

It's an 870 with BO.  Here's my basic procedure:

- scan neg into PS7 to Gray Scale mode
- assigned profile is Dot Gain 20%
- select "Output" in the Print preview window (no color management)
- print using Epson driver with these settings
   - Ink = black
   - resolution = Photo 1440 dpi
   - High Speed is checked (slow is more likely to show banding)
   - color control = gamma 2.2
   - contrast/brightness sliders are at 0
   - paper setting is Matte Paper - Heavyweight

This gives me close to WYSIWYG operation.  I don't know if you've done
much BO printing but I can send you the samples if you want to see the
kind of results I'm getting, just email me with your postal address. 
I'm making up a set to take to the PO soon so I could include it today
if you're quick.  

Regards, - cj

Truman Prevatt wrote:

>This is true in any creative field. One of the biggest problems graduate 
>students have when they come out is to shake off their teacher's (thesis 
>adviser) influence. Your are so ingrained with his approach and his 
>insights (while not nearly as honed ) to a problem that you 
>unconsciously find yourself approaching it the same way.
>
>You have to set you on a path and develop your own method and style. 
>Otherwise you will make no progress. It is very difficult to do - 
>especially if your adviser was a giant in the field.
>  
>
Very well said..

>When I was in graduate school, the department chairman invited over to 
>dinner every PhD candidate that was finally getting out that year. I 
>remember the conversation well, when after dinner he congratulated me 
>and over brandy he said - while Phil (Hartman) is the best in his field 
>he's not you and it time you find out who you are as a mathematician. It 
>was difficult and it did take some time but it was necessary.
>
>The same thing for photography - you have to chart your own course. It's 
>not easy. What an inspiration it was for Weston to look in his vegetable 
>garden when he got bored. Good photographs are everywhere - you just 
>have to know how to find them. That's the hard part.
>
>  
>
And anyone who has taught an intro level photo course has heard that 
disheartening refrain (and symptom of mind-numbing conformity/lack of 
imagination) from students: "But I don't have anything [interesting] to 
photograph [around here]...."

Anytime I hear that I simply want to say: "perhaps you should look into 
a course that requires a bit less individual creativity..."

Instead, I have found myself talking of Weston's vegetables or seaweed, 
photos of cracks in sidewalks by others and how it is all about seeing 
what the everyday traveler (through life) ignores.. For most artists, 
the problem is more rarely "nothing to choose from which inspires"  but 
choosing ONE direction from the plethora of alternative the world 
presents.. and then, doing justice to that which originally inspired.

Unfortunately, this takes me back to the argument of "realistic 
representation of reality" vs. "subjective interpretive vision"...  In 
my very humble opinion, it's all about what we "see" that others don't 
see.  If we give them unadulterated "pure reality" (IMHO not possible 
unless we simply recreate in 3d the reality we are representing - even 
then we would introduce human inaccuracy and imperfection) viewers will 
simply, once again, be likely to miss the "point" or "theme" we are 
actually struck by... That feature or "thing" which made us want to 
share the image with another person.  We can certainly try to just 
recreate faithfully, without any interpretation, realistic depictions of 
the world as it is..  BUT, how much more exciting it is to recreate in 
another the wonder or other FEELING we felt when viewing something.. In 
the former case we depend upon the viewer having the artist's ability to 
"see", in the latter we enable them to "see" what they may not see 
innately, and create art in translating what we "saw" into something 
appreciable by another as such..
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,
     I just subscribed to this group a few days ago, and up till this
point have been learning a lot and unable to really contribute any
useful information.  But this group (you all) seems to be very
thoughtful about the photographic process, and in this instance,
regarding subject selection, I thought many might all enjoy reading
this:
 
http://www.lenswork.com/obpexc.htm

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com <http://lightandsilver.com/>  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would also say that whenever I go somewhere that I expect to take 
great photos (Sedona... etc. etc.) I bring my best gear and shoot 
almost nothing... when I am out with my kids with just a Kiev 35A or 
S110 digital and expect to shoot nothing I end up taking my most 
interesting shots.

always have a camera with you!

mark

...
> Instead, I have found myself talking of Weston's vegetables or 
seaweed, 
> photos of cracks in sidewalks by others and how it is all about 
seeing 
> what the everyday traveler (through life) ignores.. For most 
artists, 
> the problem is more rarely "nothing to choose from which inspires"  
but 
> choosing ONE direction from the plethora of alternative the world 
> presents.. and then, doing justice to that which originally 
inspired.
> 
> Unfortunately, this takes me back to the argument of "realistic 
> representation of reality" vs. "subjective interpretive vision"...  
...

Thanks CJ.

My address is

3601 11th Avenue North
Grand Forks, North Dakota
58203

And I need your address for the CD files.



> 
> It's an 870 with BO.  Here's my basic procedure:
> 
> - scan neg into PS7 to Gray Scale mode
> - assigned profile is Dot Gain 20%
> - select "Output" in the Print preview window (no color management)
> - print using Epson driver with these settings
>    - Ink = black
>    - resolution = Photo 1440 dpi
>    - High Speed is checked (slow is more likely to show banding)
>    - color control = gamma 2.2
>    - contrast/brightness sliders are at 0
>    - paper setting is Matte Paper - Heavyweight
>

I'll try these settings tomorrow.  I just tried a BO print now, and it
took a fairly detailed cloudy sky, and made it 1 shade of gray. But I
wasn't using your settings. 

I do have a mac, so should I use the 2.2 gamma anyway?

Jerry

Hi, c j.  I saw another post in response explaining the Penitente.  It's an outlawed Catholic sect, and they've been in the area for a couple of hundred years or so -- at least they haven't done the Jim Jones thing yet.  A friend of mine has a great photo of a morada (temple), but he hasn't made a habit of it.  By all accounts, they are people to avoid.  Incidentally, a little caution is called for in many places in NM, esp the pueblos (villages).  I have a portfolio from several visits over the years to the St. Joseph's Mission Church in the Laguna Pueblo (where AA made the photo of the dog in the road at sunup).  They are wonderful people, believe themselves to be descendants of the Anasazi, and will talk with you at length about their background.  Other places, a photo might be a serious problem.  I always talk for a while and ask, and if it's OK hand out some Polaroid proofs (a lot of times the locals want me to sign it!).  The first time I made a trip to Abique to see Georgia O'Keefe's house, I was warned it might be a problem.  Sure enough, when I pulled up the fence had been spray-painted "Tourist Go Home".  Now I think they have a tour once a year.

  --Ken

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Clayton Jones <cj@...> 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ah, the digital argument...


  Hello Ken,

  >Try northern New Mexico when the Light is good (Spring, before 
  >school lets out).  Just stay away from those moradas unless 
  >you're carrying some serious heat.

  What's a morada?

  Regards, - cj


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Jerry,

> My address is

Done.  Will go out in tomorrow's mail.



> And I need your address for the CD files.

PO Box 7596
West Palm Beach, FL 33405


>I do have a mac, so should I use the 2.2 gamma anyway?

Sorry, I don't know.  I'm using PS7 on a PC with an LCD monitor, so
everything could be different.  I recommend to just experiment by
changing one thing at a time and take notes.  

BTW, the prints I'm sending are all on PR with the MIS VM/FS black.

Regards, - cj

Hello Ken,

> Hi, c j.  I saw another post in response explaining the Penitente.  

Ok, thanks very much.  Good stuff to know.


Regards, - cj

Thanks Clayton. I will get your raw images this week. Supposed to be
nice, sunny, and warm for the rest of the week.

Jerry

Ed Mathews wrote:

>Hi,
>     I just subscribed to this group a few days ago, and up till this
>point have been learning a lot and unable to really contribute any
>useful information.  But this group (you all) seems to be very
>thoughtful about the photographic process, and in this instance,
>regarding subject selection, I thought many might all enjoy reading
>this:
> 
>http://www.lenswork.com/obpexc.htm
>
>  
>
Great piece ED, thanks for the link...

If you think that deeply about imaging yourself, be careful, you may get 
drawn into hopeless discussions on here...  LOL

Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jerry,

> Thanks Clayton. I will get your raw images this week. Supposed to be
> nice, sunny, and warm for the rest of the week.

Ok, great.  Prints went out today.

Regards, - cj