Digital BW, The Print

ooh.........pretty harsh!

All I ask is:  If you are proven wrong, you will apologize, ok?

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC

pete baydar wrote:

> re:
> >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 05:43:17 -0000
> >From: "Tony Caltabiano" <calpen1@...>
> >Subject: Re: another ink option
> >
> >Todd,
> Yes, these are pure pigments - they are very finely
> ground and are
> >running thorugh Iris printers in testing right now
> from what I understand.
>
> Well this is going too far with us. This type of
> unbelievable statement makes all of your other claims
> seem as doubtful and equally ridiculous. Anyone who
> knows anything about Iris printers knows that Iris
> printers can not pass Epson compatible pigment inks
> for at least 5 reasons= viscosity /conductivity
> /droplet formation /filtration /pump friction.
>
> We may be black and white printers in this group, but
> that doesn't make us stupid or gullible. Would you
> please take your overenthusiastic and indellible hype
> back to the list which you came from.
>
>
> Pete
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pete:
I hope you don't have to eat crow on that statement. If you are proven wrong
I hope you are man enough to jump up and apologize a quickly as you jumped
up and criticized!

Jim Davis
Make Your Site SELL! (MYSS!)
The best art in the world is useless......if you can't sell it.
What's the point of traffic...if no one's buying your art?
Order MYSS! TODAY... increase your sales TOMORROW
http://myss.sitesell.com/artists.html
jarthurdavis@...  voice: 717-566-3794   fax: 561-431-8032
http://www.visual-artists.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "pete baydar" <bpeteb@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 10:08 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] another ink option rumor mill


> re:
> >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 05:43:17 -0000
> >From: "Tony Caltabiano" <calpen1@...>
> >Subject: Re: another ink option
> >
> >Todd,
> Yes, these are pure pigments - they are very finely
> ground and are
> >running thorugh Iris printers in testing right now
> from what I understand.
>
> Well this is going too far with us. This type of
> unbelievable statement makes all of your other claims
> seem as doubtful and equally ridiculous. Anyone who
> knows anything about Iris printers knows that Iris
> printers can not pass Epson compatible pigment inks
> for at least 5 reasons= viscosity /conductivity
> /droplet formation /filtration /pump friction.
>
> We may be black and white printers in this group, but
> that doesn't make us stupid or gullible. Would you
> please take your overenthusiastic and indellible hype
> back to the list which you came from.
>
>
> Pete
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Harvey,

How are things with you and your company up in New York City?  I hope 
you guys are alright!  I can't get through on the phone!  

Jim Robbins
AllSquare


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:

> ooh.........pretty harsh!
> 
> All I ask is:  If you are proven wrong, you will apologize, ok?
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> pete baydar wrote:
> 
> > re:
> > >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 05:43:17 -0000
> > >From: "Tony Caltabiano" <calpen1@a...>
> > >Subject: Re: another ink option
> > >
> > >Todd,
> > Yes, these are pure pigments - they are very finely
> > ground and are
> > >running thorugh Iris printers in testing right now
> > from what I understand.
> >
> > Well this is going too far with us. This type of
> > unbelievable statement makes all of your other claims
> > seem as doubtful and equally ridiculous. Anyone who
> > knows anything about Iris printers knows that Iris
> > printers can not pass Epson compatible pigment inks
> > for at least 5 reasons= viscosity /conductivity
> > /droplet formation /filtration /pump friction.
> >
> > We may be black and white printers in this group, but
> > that doesn't make us stupid or gullible. Would you
> > please take your overenthusiastic and indellible hype
> > back to the list which you came from.
> >
> >
> > Pete
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wrote Harvey this morning, he responded that they were OK.

C

> From: actjimrobbins@...
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:32:16 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Harvey!
> 
> Harvey,
> 
> How are things with you and your company up in New York City?  I hope
> you guys are alright!  I can't get through on the phone!
> 
> Jim Robbins
> AllSquare

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "J. Arthur Davis" <
jarthurdavis@e...> wrote:
> Pete:
> I hope you don't have to eat crow on that statement. If you are
proven wrong
> I hope you are man enough to jump up and apologize a quickly as you
jumped
> up and criticized!
> 
> Jim Davis


No, I wasn't proven wrong. He quickly back-peddled and said that they 
are in testing. Lets see the inks released and I will hail Gary a 
genius for doing something that no one else has been able to do.
Which 
is printing pure pigment ink through an Iris and making a print.
These 
babies are not your average EPSON. Each of the 4 million or so drops
a 
second that pass out of the jets have to be able to take an
electronic 
charge. I went to a seminar given by Graham Nash and heard directly 
from a technical rep from Scitex what would actually happen to the 
various parts of the printer if micro fine pigment was attempted to
be 
printed. It wasn't pretty and the costs of the equipment failures
would 
cost thousands. Hows that? And we cry about clogging our EPSONs. A
few 
bucks compared to clogging an Iris.

Still I resent the hype that is overtaking this list. I joined to
read 
more about Quad Blacks in general. This list turns out to be a huge 
marketing arena for MIS and now Indelible. Makes me wonder if it
isn't 
more profitable being one of the gurus for an ink company than being 
the ink company itself. Fact is that this list is actively utilized
by 
the propoganda of ink company gurus. 

I may have been harsh but I was not attacking Tony per se. I just do 
not want to read the hype of color inks on a list for Black and
White. 
I just don't want to be lied to anymore nor hyped to. I am not saying 
Tony is lieing. I really do not believe he knows enough technically 
about what he is selling to be able to lie. I do believe he is
engaging 
in blatant hype. 

Anyone here want to start a discussion list which doesn't allow 
manufacturers? Isn't that what a discussion list is? Can't the 
manufacturers have their own? Am I the only one bothered by this?
Today 
was a tremendous wake up. I don't want to take it anymore. I want to
be 
able to sign on and learn, and to participate when I actually get
this 
curves thing working. Right now it isn't what it was cracked up to be 
either. So excuuuuse me if I appear skeptical. I am.

Pete

To anybody who is interested, Gary Finnoe answered some questions 
about indelible inks on the InkOptions list.  Since color ink can be 
used for black and white (although not that easily) you may read his 
blatant hype there if you like.  

Pete,  what kind of ink are you using?  Which printer?  Maybe some of 
the guys here can offer suggestions.  I know how you feel, I am 
struggling with curves, dots, clogs, and screwed up epsons too.  And 
really, I'm not trying to be patronizing - what have you learned so 
far on you bw printing journey?  Forgive me if I you have posted all 
this already, I just hadn't been familiar with your name personally 
until just recently.

best to all,
Tony 


> Tony is lieing. I really do not believe he knows enough technically 
> about what he is selling to be able to lie. I do believe he is
> engaging 
> in blatant hype. 
> 
> Anyone here want to start a discussion list which doesn't allow 
> manufacturers? Isn't that what a discussion list is? Can't the 
> manufacturers have their own? Am I the only one bothered by this?
> Today 
> was a tremendous wake up. I don't want to take it anymore. I want to
> be 
> able to sign on and learn, and to participate when I actually get
> this 
> curves thing working. Right now it isn't what it was cracked up to 
be 
> either. So excuuuuse me if I appear skeptical. I am.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., bpeteb@y... wrote:
I just do 
> not want to read the hype of color inks on a list for Black and
> White.

Hey Pete,

Many people, including myself, attempt to print B/W images all 
the time with color inks. With a carefully created profile, it can be 
done, and without color crossover. Given, it probably is harder, 
but still, the point is that it's certainly appropriate to this list.

In addition, the only reason that there's a lot of talk about MIS is 
simply that many on this list are currently using their products. I 
know for a fact that Martin and Antonis intended this group to be 
free of manufacturer/retailer hype; that was the main goal of 
starting this group. This group is about as pure as you're gonna 
get for having a "power to the user" mentality. We're all learning, 
so whatever degree, and everything is changing so quickly, we're 
all trying to keep up.

Also, with all these  events of this morning, your timing is a 
bit ill-timed when you come on so strong. My bet is that you're not 
gonna gather many supporters with that approach; I've learned 
that personally. When you micro-obsess over dpi, and 
resolution, and microbanding, and DMax levels, like I do, and 
then something happens like what happened today, it's gotta 
make you take a step back and take a deep breath, and keep 
things in perspective. My sense is that everyone in this group is 
in it for the same reason: to make quality, long-lasting B/W 
prints. We're all on the same side.

-Mark Tucker, ex-resident of New York City, with good friends still 
there...

C,

Thanks for the response.  I was getting a little worried. I wasn't sure which 
building in NY Harvey was in!

Jim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark,

 I am very interested in printing duotones with color inks, selenium-
toned images in particular. What are you using to get your selenium-
toned images and how hard is it? I currently use an Epson 1280 with 
OEM inks on EAM and Eclipse Satine. I was going to switch to MIS 
archival inks until Jerry did his test. Cone apparently is going to 
come out with a selenium-toned inkset sometime and I wonder if I 
should wait for that? Any help is appreciated.

Tim

www.portraitsofnature.net












--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., bpeteb@y... wrote:
> I just do 
> > not want to read the hype of color inks on a list for Black and
> > White.
> 
> Hey Pete,
> 
> Many people, including myself, attempt to print B/W images all 
> the time with color inks. With a carefully created profile, it can 
be 
> done, and without color crossover. Given, it probably is harder, 
> but still, the point is that it's certainly appropriate to this 
list.
> 
> In addition, the only reason that there's a lot of talk about MIS 
is 

> simply that many on this list are currently using their products. I 
> know for a fact that Martin and Antonis intended this group to be 
> free of manufacturer/retailer hype; that was the main goal of 
> starting this group. This group is about as pure as you're gonna 
> get for having a "power to the user" mentality. We're all learning, 
> so whatever degree, and everything is changing so quickly, we're 
> all trying to keep up.
> 
> Also, with all these  events of this morning, your timing is a 
> bit ill-timed when you come on so strong. My bet is that you're not 
> gonna gather many supporters with that approach; I've learned 
> that personally. When you micro-obsess over dpi, and 
> resolution, and microbanding, and DMax levels, like I do, and 
> then something happens like what happened today, it's gotta 
> make you take a step back and take a deep breath, and keep 
> things in perspective. My sense is that everyone in this group is 
> in it for the same reason: to make quality, long-lasting B/W 
> prints. We're all on the same side.
> 
> -Mark Tucker, ex-resident of New York City, with good friends still 
> there...

Pete,

As a list moderator I ask that you please read post #1, which 
outlines the topic, general guidelines and commercial members 
guidelines.

The intent of the list is to have a group that is not run by any 
commercial interest to discuss all of the materials and techniques 
available. As part of idea, we decided to welcome and encourage, 
information and presence from all manufacturers and vendors on an 
equal footing in exchange for their participation answering questions 
and providing links to this list for new users to follow. The thought 
was that this would help the users better understand what was 
available and allow the users to take advantage of the commercial 
members knowledge.

I am very pleased with the way it has worked out so far. 

Regarding topic, the list is not about "quad blacks," it is about all 
technologies to produce a B&W or monochrome print from a digital 
file. This includes using color ink sets among many other methods.

I find it very common in lists for interest in one particular item or 
area to just about totally grab the attention of the list for a while 
and then the list moves on to a new topic. If you don't like the 
threads running at any particular time, start a new thread. Ask a 
question, post some information, etc.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., bpeteb@y... wrote:
(snip)

> 
> Still I resent the hype that is overtaking this list. I joined to
> read 
> more about Quad Blacks in general. This list turns out to be a huge 
> marketing arena for MIS and now Indelible. Makes me wonder if it
> isn't 
> more profitable being one of the gurus for an ink company than 
being 
> the ink company itself. Fact is that this list is actively utilized
> by 
> the propoganda of ink company gurus. 

Really. See above.

> 
> I may have been harsh but I was not attacking Tony per se.

Sure could have fooled me. 

> I just do 
> not want to read the hype of color inks on a list for Black and
> White.

Please see the group topic.
 
> I just don't want to be lied to anymore nor hyped to. I am not 
saying 
> Tony is lieing. I really do not believe he knows enough technically 
> about what he is selling to be able to lie. I do believe he is
> engaging 
> in blatant hype.

Pete, I consider that over the line. You really need to read Post #1.

> 
> Anyone here want to start a discussion list which doesn't allow 
> manufacturers?

Start one. That is what Antonis and I did when we were not satisfied 
with what was out there.

> Isn't that what a discussion list is?

It is whatever its members want to make of it.

> Can't the 
> manufacturers have their own?

Yes they can and they most definitely do!

> Am I the only one bothered by this?

Probably not. The odds that this list will please everyone are 
vanishing small.

> Today 
> was a tremendous wake up. I don't want to take it anymore. I want to
> be 
> able to sign on and learn, and to participate when I actually get
> this 
> curves thing working. Right now it isn't what it was cracked up to 
be 
> either. So excuuuuse me if I appear skeptical. I am.

I am sorry you have found so little to your liking in this group.

Martin Wesley