Digital BW, The Print

Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and workflows, something interesting comes along to consume 
all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly quoting people, but for those interested in another pigment quad/
hex ink as well as color, check this out-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
Haven't tried it yet.
Tyler

Tyler,

I've been monitoring that list for a week, and so far haven't heard anything
but sales claims. Those claims do sound good, but I'd sure like to hear them
backed up by some users. Have you seen anything along those lines? I found
the follow up questions to that post interesting and hope some answers will
follow. At $50 per 4oz color, testing won't be cheap. Anyway, if you do hear
of anything good from a third party please pass it along.

Todd 

> Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and workflows,
> something interesting comes along to consume
> all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly quoting people,
> but for those interested in another pigment quad/
> hex ink as well as color, check this out-
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> Haven't tried it yet.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

All I know is from the same list Todd, so you know as much as I. I'm waiting for some responces to Jim's questions too. I was 
just suprised they are offering quad and hex mono inks, all previous info has been about color.
We'll see.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:

> Tyler,
> 
> I've been monitoring that list for a week, and so far haven't heard anything
> but sales claims. Those claims do sound good, but I'd sure like to hear them
> backed up by some users. Have you seen anything along those lines? I found
> the follow up questions to that post interesting and hope some answers will
> follow. At $50 per 4oz color, testing won't be cheap. Anyway, if you do hear
> of anything good from a third party please pass it along.
> 
> Todd 
> 
> > Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and workflows,
> > something interesting comes along to consume
> > all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly quoting people,
> > but for those interested in another pigment quad/
> > hex ink as well as color, check this out-
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> > Haven't tried it yet.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >

Tyler, Todd,

I skimmed through briefly and did not find any links to a place to 
purchase. Did I miss it? Also seems like another quad set in search 
of some software. Dashing off a few curves is not quite the minor 
detail one post suggested. The list appears to be owned by the 
manufacturer.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> All I know is from the same list Todd, so you know as much as I. 
I'm waiting for some responces to Jim's questions too. I was 
> just suprised they are offering quad and hex mono inks, all 
previous info has been about color.
> We'll see.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> wrote:
> > Tyler,
> > 
> > I've been monitoring that list for a week, and so far haven't 
heard anything
> > but sales claims. Those claims do sound good, but I'd sure like 
to hear them
> > backed up by some users. Have you seen anything along those 
lines? I found
> > the follow up questions to that post interesting and hope some 
answers will
> > follow. At $50 per 4oz color, testing won't be cheap. Anyway, if 
you do hear
> > of anything good from a third party please pass it along.
> > 
> > Todd 
> > 
> > > Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and 
workflows,
> > > something interesting comes along to consume
> > > all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly 
quoting people,
> > > but for those interested in another pigment quad/
> > > hex ink as well as color, check this out-
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> > > Haven't tried it yet.
> > > Tyler
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > 
> > >

Ha, I hadn't even noticed the part about the mono inks. That is interesting.
I don't even know if any of these inks are dyes or pigs, do you?

Todd

> All I know is from the same list Todd, so you know as much as I. I'm waiting
> for some responces to Jim's questions too. I was
> just suprised they are offering quad and hex mono inks, all previous info has
> been about color.
> We'll see.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
>> Tyler,
>> 
>> I've been monitoring that list for a week, and so far haven't heard anything
>> but sales claims. Those claims do sound good, but I'd sure like to hear them
>> backed up by some users. Have you seen anything along those lines? I found
>> the follow up questions to that post interesting and hope some answers will
>> follow. At $50 per 4oz color, testing won't be cheap. Anyway, if you do hear
>> of anything good from a third party please pass it along.
>> 
>> Todd 
>> 
>>> Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and workflows,
>>> something interesting comes along to consume
>>> all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly quoting people,
>>> but for those interested in another pigment quad/
>>> hex ink as well as color, check this out-
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
>>> Haven't tried it yet.
>>> Tyler

Todd,

They are supposed to be 100% pigment, like the Color Piezo. Actually 
the list owner just sells the inks, and appears totally dependent on 
his information from the manufacturer. I went down that path with the 
Cone Color Piezo inks becoming a paying beta tester as did many 
others. While I don't doubt the Indelible inks work fine in the older 
Epsons like the 1200 and the large format Epsons (for which they were 
originally designed), I want proof from the 12x0 and 2000P line 
before spending the money.

My testing has shown that the variations in these newer Epson 
printers can be substantial from printer to printer. It seems to boil 
down to the voltage output on each given printer at the head. In 
testing many different inks, I have found that many inks that work 
with the 1200 and older lines sometimes will not work in the newer 
versions. Much of this has to do with the split droplet design, as 
well as lower voltages in the two photo colors. Some will band, some 
will mist, some will do both. The lower voltage output of the two 
photo colors seems to be where the most problems stem from, as I 
usually see little in the way of problems from the K,C,M, and Y. Many 
of these inksets will need reformulated for lower viscosity in the Cc 
and Mm positions to prevent problems.

As a result of the testing I have done I have become very cautious 
about compatibility claims. I did offer to beta test the Indelible 
inks in CIS systems on my printers since I was blessed (cursed) with 
2 1270's and a 2000P that will show these problems, but never 
received a reply.

As a side note and good news is that the following inksets all work 
perfectly:

MIS archival color
Enhanced Generations
MIS Variable Tone  

I think it is important for these ink manufacturers to shoot for 
formulations that will work in the bulk of the printer lines they 
advertise compatibility with. What I am finding, is that most only 
test in one printer and if it works they claim compatibility. The 
Color Piezo inks were a perfect example of this - they claimed 
compatibility with the 12x0 and 2000P line with minimal testing (even 
though they had a 2000P that showed the misting problem). They then 
purchased 10 brand new printers and 2 of the 10 showed problems, now 
they don't recommend these inks in cartridges (but claim to be 
developing a high viscosity CIS!?) for the 12x0 or 2000P line.

Just my 2 cents and maybe something for any ink manufacturers 
monitoring the list to consider.

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Ha, I hadn't even noticed the part about the mono inks. That is 
interesting.
> I don't even know if any of these inks are dyes or pigs, do you?
> 
> Todd
> 
> > All I know is from the same list Todd, so you know as much as I. 
I'm waiting
> > for some responces to Jim's questions too. I was
> > just suprised they are offering quad and hex mono inks, all 
previous info has
> > been about color.
> > We'll see.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> wrote:
> >> Tyler,
> >> 
> >> I've been monitoring that list for a week, and so far haven't 
heard anything
> >> but sales claims. Those claims do sound good, but I'd sure like 
to hear them
> >> backed up by some users. Have you seen anything along those 
lines? I found
> >> the follow up questions to that post interesting and hope some 
answers will
> >> follow. At $50 per 4oz color, testing won't be cheap. Anyway, if 
you do hear
> >> of anything good from a third party please pass it along.
> >> 
> >> Todd 
> >> 
> >>> Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and 
workflows,
> >>> something interesting comes along to consume
> >>> all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly 
quoting people,

> >>> but for those interested in another pigment quad/
> >>> hex ink as well as color, check this out-
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> >>> Haven't tried it yet.
> >>> Tyler

They said that they are pigments.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC

Todd Flashner wrote:

> Ha, I hadn't even noticed the part about the mono inks. That is interesting.
> I don't even know if any of these inks are dyes or pigs, do you?
>
> Todd
>
> > All I know is from the same list Todd, so you know as much as I. I'm waiting
> > for some responces to Jim's questions too. I was
> > just suprised they are offering quad and hex mono inks, all previous info has
> > been about color.
> > We'll see.
> > Tyler
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
> >> Tyler,
> >>
> >> I've been monitoring that list for a week, and so far haven't heard anything
> >> but sales claims. Those claims do sound good, but I'd sure like to hear them
> >> backed up by some users. Have you seen anything along those lines? I found
> >> the follow up questions to that post interesting and hope some answers will
> >> follow. At $50 per 4oz color, testing won't be cheap. Anyway, if you do hear
> >> of anything good from a third party please pass it along.
> >>
> >> Todd
> >>
> >>> Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and workflows,
> >>> something interesting comes along to consume
> >>> all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly quoting people,
> >>> but for those interested in another pigment quad/
> >>> hex ink as well as color, check this out-
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> >>> Haven't tried it yet.
> >>> Tyler
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT
                         [Click Here!]

>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often
> being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Terry,

Thanks for all the information. It sounds like you have a great deal 
of experience in the area.

One of the biggest issues it that so many of these quad inks are 
being marketed for printers that are no longer in production. Even 
the 3000 is now gone. If they really want to sell their inks they 
need to provide a path that includes printers that are readily 
available.

They also need to provide some basic software even if it is just some 
RGB curves to use with the Epson driver. Do they honestly think there 
is some mass market out here that will buy inks they have to develop 
their own profiles for? 

At least ConeTech realized this part of the equation and provided 
customer support as well. They still offer the most comfortable path 
for people with little or no experience.

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...> 
wrote:
> Todd,
> 
> They are supposed to be 100% pigment, like the Color Piezo. 
Actually 
> the list owner just sells the inks, and appears totally dependent 
on 
> his information from the manufacturer. I went down that path with 
the 
> Cone Color Piezo inks becoming a paying beta tester as did many 
> others. While I don't doubt the Indelible inks work fine in the 
older 
> Epsons like the 1200 and the large format Epsons (for which they 
were 
> originally designed), I want proof from the 12x0 and 2000P line 
> before spending the money.
> 
> My testing has shown that the variations in these newer Epson 
> printers can be substantial from printer to printer. It seems to 
boil 
> down to the voltage output on each given printer at the head. In 
> testing many different inks, I have found that many inks that work 
> with the 1200 and older lines sometimes will not work in the newer 
> versions. Much of this has to do with the split droplet design, as 
> well as lower voltages in the two photo colors. Some will band, 
some 
> will mist, some will do both. The lower voltage output of the two 
> photo colors seems to be where the most problems stem from, as I 
> usually see little in the way of problems from the K,C,M, and Y. 
Many 
> of these inksets will need reformulated for lower viscosity in the 
Cc 
> and Mm positions to prevent problems.
> 
> As a result of the testing I have done I have become very cautious 
> about compatibility claims. I did offer to beta test the Indelible 
> inks in CIS systems on my printers since I was blessed (cursed) 
with 
> 2 1270's and a 2000P that will show these problems, but never 
> received a reply.
> 
> As a side note and good news is that the following inksets all work 
> perfectly:
> 
> MIS archival color
> Enhanced Generations
> MIS Variable Tone  
> 
> I think it is important for these ink manufacturers to shoot for 
> formulations that will work in the bulk of the printer lines they 
> advertise compatibility with. What I am finding, is that most only 
> test in one printer and if it works they claim compatibility. The 
> Color Piezo inks were a perfect example of this - they claimed 
> compatibility with the 12x0 and 2000P line with minimal testing 
(even 
> though they had a 2000P that showed the misting problem). They then 
> purchased 10 brand new printers and 2 of the 10 showed problems, 
now 
> they don't recommend these inks in cartridges (but claim to be 
> developing a high viscosity CIS!?) for the 12x0 or 2000P line.
> 
> Just my 2 cents and maybe something for any ink manufacturers 
> monitoring the list to consider.
> 
> Terry
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> 
> wrote:
> > Ha, I hadn't even noticed the part about the mono inks. That is 
> interesting.
> > I don't even know if any of these inks are dyes or pigs, do you?
> > 
> > Todd
> > 
> > > All I know is from the same list Todd, so you know as much as 
I. 
> I'm waiting
> > > for some responces to Jim's questions too. I was
> > > just suprised they are offering quad and hex mono inks, all 
> previous info has
> > > been about color.
> > > We'll see.
> > > Tyler
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
> <tflash@e...> wrote:
> > >> Tyler,
> > >> 
> > >> I've been monitoring that list for a week, and so far haven't 
> heard anything
> > >> but sales claims. Those claims do sound good, but I'd sure 
like 
> to hear them
> > >> backed up by some users. Have you seen anything along those 
> lines? I found
> > >> the follow up questions to that post interesting and hope some 
> answers will
> > >> follow. At $50 per 4oz color, testing won't be cheap. Anyway, 
if 

> you do hear
> > >> of anything good from a third party please pass it along.
> > >> 
> > >> Todd 
> > >> 
> > >>> Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and 
> workflows,
> > >>> something interesting comes along to consume
> > >>> all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly 
> quoting people,
> > >>> but for those interested in another pigment quad/
> > >>> hex ink as well as color, check this out-
> > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> > >>> Haven't tried it yet.
> > >>> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
check this out-
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> Haven't tried it yet.


Haven't we established the clear fact that it's best to have loyalty 
to groups that aren't run/managed by manufacturers? There may 
be merit in this system, but I am the eternal skeptic. I just have 
an immediate red flag when sales and money seem to be the 
main motivator. Maybe it's early yet, and they just don't have their 
act together, but when the Welcome Message and the Summary 
have no moderator name or mission statement listed anywhere, 
my interest wanes. I unsubscribed immediately.

-Mark Tucker

"My Paranoia" Quote of the Day: "Social documentary 
photography offers the future a view of the past and a voice to the 
dispossessed. It bears witness in an age when publications 
turn toward entertainment and celebrity photography and when 
individual expression is often drowned out by huge media 
companies. It amazes me that an individual with a camera and a 
few rolls of film still has a powerful and enduring voice." - Ken 
Light, in the Afterword to "Witness to Our Time: The Working 
Lives of Documentary Photographers".

Martin,

Actually, I am the list moderator but not the manufacturer.  I was contacted 
by Gary Finnoe and Robert Rex of Crane about 6months ago to discuss the 
release of this new ink product!

At first I posted a message to the "color-piezography" group but was rejected 
because that list was designed to explore Jon Cones color set!  So after 
apologizing to the group, I simply started my own called "InkOptions".  On my 
list, I am not singleing out the discussion of the Indelible Inks but it is 
open to discussion of any pertaining aspect of this industry(inkjet 
printing).  

I have also been asked to join this group and move the discussion here, 
however, the amount of questions and concerns users will have in the 
beginning would over compensate for joining the Digital BW list.  I don't 
want the Indelible Ink discussions to wear out the welcome on any list, so I 
created a new list!  

The Indelible Inks are still what some would classify as "ground level" but 
are slowly but surely making their way to the top of many users lists!  At 
the present, those interested will have to rely on other users input and 
comments until we have established a website or literature!  

Jim Robbins
AllSquare
(888) 286-8801




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Actually, I am the list moderator but not the manufacturer.  ...At 
the present, those interested will have to rely on other users input 
and comments until we have established a website or literature!" 

Jim Robbins, AllSquare (888) 286-8801


We?

> Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and workflows,
> something interesting comes along to consume
> all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly quoting people,
> but for those interested in another pigment quad/
> hex ink as well as color, check this out-
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> Haven't tried it yet.
> Tyler

Very interesting!  I had very good luck with experiments using a Red Green
and Blue inkset to get easy neutral grays through a conventional RGB driver
but I was worried about the stability of those colors since I mixed them
from Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow inks rather than true ink pigment colors.
Using RGB colors causes less color drift since they have a much smaller
gamut when printed together in equal amounts but still leave the ability to
do some serious tinting/toning with a curve or two.  Looks like those RGB
inks might be good grayscale inks for small droplet four color printers (the
3000 does better with a ink tone partitioning approach rather than a low
gamut approach so the multi-tone set would still be best for that).  I also
*love* the idea of a blue and violet ink for color printers -- might
actually get a darn decent purple out of it for a change!  Not sure how to
use those in conventional printers though so I anxiously await that next
generation of 8 channel printers (with two blacks they may well approach the
CcMmYKkk perfect printer I've been waiting for).  Possibly that will mean a
choice of CcMmYyKk or CMYOGBVK printer setups depending on desire for a
photo results or high saturation graphics results. Since I'm still up to my
ears in experiments I will probably wait for the new printers rather than
try another inkset in the old ones.  But more options has to be good for
fine art variety in the overall sense.

Dan Culbertson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
> wrote:
> check this out-
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> > Haven't tried it yet.
> 
> 
> Haven't we established the clear fact that it's best to have loyalty 
> to groups that aren't run/managed by manufacturers?

Mark, all,
I tend to think another ink possibility for quads is "news" since none of them do exactly what I want yet. I'll take 
information anywhere I can get it.
I was just saying there's another ink out there, ya know? 
?
Tyler

Hap Mullenneaux wrote:

> "Actually, I am the list moderator but not the manufacturer.  ...At
> the present, those interested will have to rely on other users input
> and comments until we have established a website or literature!"
>
> Jim Robbins, AllSquare (888) 286-8801
>
>
> We?

Aw, come on guys.........

'We', I assume is Jim's Company, 'All Square', not the manufacturer of the inks.

We are not talking about Microsoft or Epson here.  If people don't want new, independent ink sources, so be
it.  But if they do, then there has to be at least a little trust about the possibility that someone might
come up with a new inking system.  Without that, there will never be change.  If the big guys are not
challenged by outsiders, they have no reason to improve.

And I agree with Jim, when he stated that the Jon Cone lists did not want to discuss other ink
possibilities...That is the reason I joined *this* list, as it is *not* owned by a manufacturer (but is only
dedicated to B&W output).

All this sniping seems to be a fear of change, or a fear of a broken heart, if the claims turn out to be
false.  I for one, *am* waiting for the proofs to be published, but also consider it very exciting to watch
the birthing process.  With all of our *constructive* questions, we can assure ourselves a better final
product.

Finally, nobody is forcing anyone to actually *buy* this product (Indelible Inks), so why not just put forth
the questions, and wait for the answers?  From what I have seen, the manufacturer seem very willing to
consider changing pricing policies etc.  I no longer remember remember if it was on this list, or the 'Ink
Options' list, where they talked about a 'new buyer incentive' (or something like that).

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography NYC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark,

I agree and, while additional choices are always welcome, I don't see 
much organization, focus, software or customer support.

Great quote!

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> 
> wrote:
> check this out-
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> > Haven't tried it yet.
> 
> 
> Haven't we established the clear fact that it's best to have 
loyalty 
> to groups that aren't run/managed by manufacturers? There may 
> be merit in this system, but I am the eternal skeptic. I just have 
> an immediate red flag when sales and money seem to be the 
> main motivator. Maybe it's early yet, and they just don't have 
their 

> act together, but when the Welcome Message and the Summary 
> have no moderator name or mission statement listed anywhere, 
> my interest wanes. I unsubscribed immediately.
> 
> -Mark Tucker
> 
> "My Paranoia" Quote of the Day: "Social documentary 
> photography offers the future a view of the past and a voice to the 
> dispossessed. It bears witness in an age when publications 
> turn toward entertainment and celebrity photography and when 
> individual expression is often drowned out by huge media 
> companies. It amazes me that an individual with a camera and a 
> few rolls of film still has a powerful and enduring voice." - Ken 
> Light, in the Afterword to "Witness to Our Time: The Working 
> Lives of Documentary Photographers".

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Dan Culbertson 
<danculb@b...> wrote:
> > Well, as always when I get settled into certain materials and 
workflows,
> > something interesting comes along to consume
> > all my time with testing. I don't feel comfortable directly 
quoting people,
> > but for those interested in another pigment quad/
> > hex ink as well as color, check this out-
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> > Haven't tried it yet.
> > Tyler
> 
> Very interesting!  I had very good luck with experiments using a 
Red Green
> and Blue inkset to get easy neutral grays through a conventional 
RGB driver
> but I was worried about the stability of those colors since I mixed 
them
> from Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow inks rather than true ink pigment 
colors.
> Using RGB colors causes less color drift since they have a much 
smaller
> gamut when printed together in equal amounts but still leave the 
ability to
> do some serious tinting/toning with a curve or two.  Looks like 
those RGB
> inks might be good grayscale inks for small droplet four color 
printers (the
> 3000 does better with a ink tone partitioning approach rather than 
a low
> gamut approach so the multi-tone set would still be best for 
that).  I also
> *love* the idea of a blue and violet ink for color printers -- might
> actually get a darn decent purple out of it for a change!  Not sure 
how to
> use those in conventional printers though so I anxiously await that 
next
> generation of 8 channel printers (with two blacks they may well 
approach the
> CcMmYKkk perfect printer I've been waiting for).  Possibly that 
will mean a
> choice of CcMmYyKk or CMYOGBVK printer setups depending on desire 
for a
> photo results or high saturation graphics results. Since I'm still 
up to my
> ears in experiments I will probably wait for the new printers 
rather than
> try another inkset in the old ones.  But more options has to be 
good for
> fine art variety in the overall sense.
> 
> Dan Culbertson

Dan,

Does this mean we get to work in CMYOGBVK space? <g>

You're an expert at this kind of stuff, do you feel like developing 
some free curves and profiles for these guys so they can sell their 
ink?

Theroy sounds good but where's the desktop printers and user 
interface?

Martine

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., actjimrobbins@a... wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> Actually, I am the list moderator but not the manufacturer.  I was 
contacted 
> by Gary Finnoe and Robert Rex of Crane about 6months ago to discuss 
the 
> release of this new ink product!

Jim,

So All Square will not be selling or marketing these inks? I guess I 
misunderstood and thought that was your intent. I didn't realize you 
had no commercial involvement with the manufacturer.
 
> 
> At first I posted a message to the "color-piezography" group but 
was rejected 
> because that list was designed to explore Jon Cones color set!  So 
after 
> apologizing to the group, I simply started my own 
called "InkOptions".  

Sounds familiar. Still guarding that group are they?

> On my 
> list, I am not singleing out the discussion of the Indelible Inks 
but it is 
> open to discussion of any pertaining aspect of this industry(inkjet 
> printing).  
> 
> I have also been asked to join this group and move the discussion 
here, 
> however, the amount of questions and concerns users will have in 
the 
> beginning would over compensate for joining the Digital BW list.  I 
don't 
> want the Indelible Ink discussions to wear out the welcome on any 
list, so I 
> created a new list! 

Posting here is fine if it is focused on B&W printing.
 
> 
> The Indelible Inks are still what some would classify as "ground 
level" but 
> are slowly but surely making their way to the top of many users 
lists!  At 
> the present, those interested will have to rely on other users 
input and 
> comments until we have established a website or literature!  

 
So is this stuff actually for sale right now? And if so where can you 
buy it?

Most importantly what software comes with it? If the ink company is 
not going to supply software for the quad inks I really am not 
interested. I'm a desktop user and my goal is to make prints not try 
and figure out curves and profiles. If the manufacturer is hoping the 
expert users will be so enthralled by the new product they will 
develop this part for free, I think that is pretty low.

Old adage in the computer business. Software sells hardware. Take a 
look at ConeTech.

Martin

Tyler,

I completely agree with you. The more options we have the better. For 
someone with your experience a new ink set is all in a day's work so 
to speak. I know that it is a tremendous amount of work to build all 
the profiles and curves, but you do have the ability to do this.

Most of us do not. So when I read that it is another set of inks 
without software support, I am finding it more annoying. I don't want 
to see another MIS situation where people like Paul have to design 
all the curves with no support from the manufacturer and then 
distribute them for free.

I would like to see a change in the way these companies do business 
so that they don't even bother to announce the inks until the are 
willing to provide printer profiles or drivers as well.

My 2 cents.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> 
> > wrote:
> > check this out-
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
> > > Haven't tried it yet.
> > 
> > 
> > Haven't we established the clear fact that it's best to have 
loyalty 
> > to groups that aren't run/managed by manufacturers?
> 
> Mark, all,
> I tend to think another ink possibility for quads is "news" since 
none of them do exactly what I want yet. I'll take 

> information anywhere I can get it.
> I was just saying there's another ink out there, ya know? 
> ?
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Dan Culbertson <danculb@b...> wrote:
I anxiously await that next
> generation of 8 channel printers (with two blacks they may well approach the
> CcMmYKkk perfect printer I've been waiting for).  Possibly that will mean a
> choice of CcMmYyKk or CMYOGBVK printer setups depending on desire for a
> photo results or high saturation graphics results. 

Dan, I'm always intrigued by these ideas. I keep wondering what sort of "mode" we'd need in Photoshop. Some sort of 
multichannel mode that has custom ink setups? Then a multichannel RIP?
Tyler

"Actually, I am the list moderator but not the manufacturer.  ...At
the present, those interested will have to rely on other users input
and comments until we have established a website or literature!"
Jim Robbins, AllSquare (888) 286-8801

"why not just put forth the questions, and wait for the answers?" 
Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography NYC

Harvey,
I thought that's what I did.  Jim identifies himself as a list 
moderator, then concludes with words that indicate he will be 
involved in creating a website and literature for this new product.  
This needs to be clarified.  I'm very open to, as in desperately 
seeking, a monochrome print solution.  From past experience I try not 
to assume anything about anyone's backround or agenda.
Hap Mullenneaux
Fairfield, Iowa

Martin,

Don't MIS, Generations, and all the cheapo refillables companies do the
same-- put their product on the market for the buyers to do as they see fit,
and sell profiling kits down the road? Not saying it's a good practice, but
lets not single these guys out either.

I'm rather surprised some smart, enterprising, individuals (several persons
on this list come to mind), don't create profiles for some of these
inks/printers/papers, and sell them at Shareware prices. I'd think they
could get a link on the ink/paper dealer sites, and generate a tidy little
income. For instance, if I were buying a set of Generations inks for my
Epson 1200, I'd gladly place my order with Mediastreet, then click the link
to JoesPROfiles.com to pay $30 for a set of 10 paper profiles for that
ink/printer combo. Heck, between you and me, I'd pay more than that, but you
get the idea. 

Now I'm not the clever type, so the time/cost of making these things is
probably eluding me, but I'm assuming these profiles might be generated in
the course of an individual making profiles for his own use, and thus they'd
be capitalizing on an investment already made.

Todd

> Tyler,
> 
> I completely agree with you. The more options we have the better. For
> someone with your experience a new ink set is all in a day's work so
> to speak. I know that it is a tremendous amount of work to build all
> the profiles and curves, but you do have the ability to do this.
> 
> Most of us do not. So when I read that it is another set of inks
> without software support, I am finding it more annoying. I don't want
> to see another MIS situation where people like Paul have to design
> all the curves with no support from the manufacturer and then
> distribute them for free.
> 
> I would like to see a change in the way these companies do business
> so that they don't even bother to announce the inks until the are
> willing to provide printer profiles or drivers as well.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...>
> wrote:
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...>
> wrote:
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@t...> 
>>> wrote:
>>> check this out-
>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InkOptions/message/62
>>>> Haven't tried it yet.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Haven't we established the clear fact that it's best to have
> loyalty 
>>> to groups that aren't run/managed by manufacturers?
>> 
>> Mark, all,
>> I tend to think another ink possibility for quads is "news" since
> none of them do exactly what I want yet. I'll take
>> information anywhere I can get it.
>> I was just saying there's another ink out there, ya know?
>> ?
>> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> Don't MIS, Generations, and all the cheapo refillables companies do 
the
> same-- put their product on the market for the buyers to do as they 
see fit,
> and sell profiling kits down the road? Not saying it's a good 
practice, but
> lets not single these guys out either.

Todd,

I don't intend to single them out, although I guess I have. They are 
just one more company who seems to think that the market for quads 
consists purely of experienced users. If that were the case it would 
be nice to say up front that these are not meant for the novice or 
average users rather than to make light of the lack of software.

Everyone else has done the same thing except for ConeTech. Piezo got 
me started with quads because there was software I could use right 
out of the box without knowing anything about curves, RGB printer 
profiles, CMYK separations or RIP's. I would never have considered 
trying the MIS VM inks if Paul did not already have some curves in 
place. If those two things weren't true we would not be having this 
conversation and I would be putting my silver prints on the drying 
screens right now.

It is not that their business model is different from MIS, Lysonic or 
others; it is that they are following the same old poor business 
model. I am giving them a rough time in hopes of pushing them to do 
something that is more beneficial to users at large and profitable 
for themselves. My statements apply to everyone except ConeTech. 
Consider it a wake-up call along the lines of, "Excuse me please take 
a look around. Why do you think that Piezo is coming out on top? What 
do they have that you don't? Do you think it is just about the inks?"

> 
> I'm rather surprised some smart, enterprising, individuals (several 
persons
> on this list come to mind), don't create profiles for some of these
> inks/printers/papers, and sell them at Shareware prices. I'd think 
they
> could get a link on the ink/paper dealer sites, and generate a tidy 
little
> income. For instance, if I were buying a set of Generations inks 
for my
> Epson 1200, I'd gladly place my order with Mediastreet, then click 
the link
> to JoesPROfiles.com to pay $30 for a set of 10 paper profiles for 
that
> ink/printer combo. Heck, between you and me, I'd pay more than 
that, but you
> get the idea. 

I agree completely. If you know what you are doing and have the tools 
this does not seem so hard. I have suggested to Paul that he sell his 
curves as shareware. He is stubbornly altruistic and believes in open 
systems. I would be happy to pay for quad profiles for my printers. A 
package of generic profiles for MIS VM on my 1280 for about 10 
different papers. With that to work with I can tweak images to fit on 
other papers.

Without a starting point, I personally don't want to play and could 
not recommend it to new comers. There are others who will play but I 
bet that the ink manufacturers, in the face of Piezo's easy to use 
front end or Paul's MIS VM curves, will miss 95% of the desktop 
market. Maybe they don't care about that market.

> 
> Now I'm not the clever type, so the time/cost of making these 
things is
> probably eluding me, but I'm assuming these profiles might be 
generated in
> the course of an individual making profiles for his own use, and 
thus they'd
> be capitalizing on an investment already made.

Once again I agree but I don't see why the ink manufacturers don't do 
this. Hire Dan for $200 an hour for a few months and spread the cost 
over the price of the ink. People will buy. They are buying Piezo.

Martin
(snip)

The recent discussions on the merits of single-ink printing, coupled with 
my experience of some beautiful mono-ink prints at a friend's studio got me 
thinking some blue sky thoughts.  Moreno's mono-ink prints were nearly 
indistinguishable from his quads, reinforcing the opinions of others on the 
list that one ink prints can look just fine.

Since one ink is nearly enough to print many monochrome images, two inks 
should be more than enough for the resolution limits of current "consumer" 
inkjet printers.  Two inks theoretically allows for 512 discrete shades of 
grey, doesn't it?  Duotones rule!

This leaves us with the possibility of (in four-ink printers) using *two* 
toner inks, not just one.  The use of two, coloured toner inks, layered 
with a high quality monochrome image could present a whole spectrum of new 
creative controls.  For instance, one toner ink could be warm, the other 
cool.  We might be able to simulate the look of some of the early colour 
systems, like autochrome, or we might come up with completely new looks 
never before available.

What if one of the toner inks was metallic or pearlescent?  I'll bet it 
won't be long before we can simulate that wonderful metallic look of a 
Cibachrome, but in a monochrome, tinted image.

Paul's probably already thought of this and is knee deep in experiments 
already.  : )

Peter McLennan

on 9/9/01 5:16 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> Why do you think that Piezo is coming out on top? What
> do they have that you don't?

<snip>

> Without a starting point, I personally don't want to play and could
> not recommend it to new comers. There are others who will play but I
> bet that the ink manufacturers, in the face of Piezo's easy to use
> front end or Paul's MIS VM curves, will miss 95% of the desktop
> market. Maybe they don't care about that market.

<snip>

> Once again I agree but I don't see why the ink manufacturers don't do
> this. Hire Dan for $200 an hour for a few months and spread the cost
> over the price of the ink. People will buy. They are buying Piezo.

Ditto, ditto, ditto!

Todd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> I tend to think another ink possibility for quads is "news" since 
none of them do exactly what I want yet. I'll take 
> information anywhere I can get it.


1. I have seen some retailers/manufacturers come into these 
lists and begin the soft-spam behavior, and to me, it really 
begins to dilute the quality of these lists. It's not really quite 
spam, but it can get very heavy on sales and pricing. And this 
B/W list I feel is particularly good, and free of commercial ties; so 
maybe I'm a bit touchy and protective about any perceived 
invasion from people who sell this stuff, rather than the people 
who actually USE this stuff. 

Robert Rex, for example, is bragging on his papers, but at the 
same time, he's also providing hard-core, substantive 
information about the papers as well. He balances out his 
salesmanship with cold, hard facts that are useful in the real 
world, to the users.

2. And speaking of people who use the stuff: I'm probably a bit 
touchy too about companies who just bring products to market, 
tout its greatnesses, and ease-of-use, and then the user buys it 
and realizes that it's not really ready for prime-time. The user 
pays full price to be, basically, the final beta-tester. I'm in for 
thousands of dollars in recent past for software/hardware that 
wasn't quite what it was promised, or at least, did not perform 
properly right out of the box. So maybe I'm a bit touchy about that 
too.

3. I too wondered about Paul Roark's relationship with MIS. 
Could he really be writing all these curves and transfers for free? 
I guess he is, and if he is, I compliment his spirit of community 
involvement. I would contribute something to this valued 
community as well, if I knew what to do. 

But I also agree with Todd, I think, who asked about MIS. I have a 
good friend with (I think) a 1200 and variable quads from MIS, 
and he's pretty bummed for buying the inks, but for having no 
curve to go with his printer. I do not know if he bought the inks 
knowing that there was no curve, but it kinda makes sense to not 
even sell something until it's finished. All I knows right now is 
that he's pretty miffed about anything related to MIS, and that 
makes for bad customer relations.

----

So, that's just the way I feel. I'm not trying to be negative or 
argumentative. I just feel like, on quality lists like these, which 
are rare, retailers need to be kept on a short leash, and they 
need to hear the full truth about what the experience is of buying 
a product.

-http://marktucker.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
> 1. I have seen some retailers/manufacturers come into these 
> lists and begin the soft-spam behavior...

Mark, I strongly agree with everything you said. I'm not associated with these people, or trying to attract attention to 
another list. If something else came out, I'd probably bring it up here too, unless I get chased out of here first. Did you take 
my post as soft-spam? I think we're on the same page here, am I'm missing something?
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
Did you take 
> my post as soft-spam? 
> Tyler

Abosutely not. Absolutely not. I should have made that more 
clear. I just replied to your post because it was the first one in 
the thread. We need a hundred more like you on this list; people 
who are forthcoming, and sharing, and care about quality 
printing. 

I was just commenting (read: venting) in general. I completely 
apologize about any miscommunication. (See why I'm single? I 
failed "communication skills" in school).

Or... maybe I'm petrified right now because I'm about 30 minutes 
away from emptying my 7000 of color ink, and installing not only 
the hextone variables, but also a CIS as well. Can you say 
"taking on too much at once"? Or maybe it's weird to know that I 
won't be able to print any other color images on this printer. I 
guess this is what commitment is all about. Or... maybe 
because the Titans are playing the Dolphins about a five-minute 
drive from where I sit, and here I am in front of the computer...

-Mark

Martin,


I really think the only reason that Inkjetmall offered the free 
profiles was to generate interest in the ink prior to developing the 
software that they intended to sell. Some manufacturers will offer 
profiles usually with their brand of paper along with the ink, but 
most choose not to for a good reason. Many potential buyers do not 
yet understand how to utilize and apply the profiles which results in 
great expense to support the profiles. The Enhanced Generations and 
MIS archival inks have done exceptionally well even though there are 
no profiles available.

Curves are a whole different ball of wax, even Cone makes you pay for 
them with the Piezo B/W software. Paul Roark has probably done more 
than anyone out there to help promote and generate interest in a 
product that he does not even sell. I think that maybe with the 
quads, many manufacturers treat the inks as paints if you will, 
allowing the artist to utilize them in the way that they see fit. The 
quad market is still relatively small and the attitude is that the 
users that are interested are much more advanced.

There are a few companies that sell ink and paper that will offer 
generic curves just to get someone interested in the products. I 
guess that is just the nature of the market so to speak. I believe 
that most companies will shy away from offering free curves, etc... 
until the "novice" user can utilize them with little to no problems. 
The vast majority of desktop users either do not have the tools, 
time, or inclination to want to go that deep. Once there is an easier 
way, maybe even at the O/S level, more interest will be shown by the 
manufacturers.

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Terry,
> 
> Thanks for all the information. It sounds like you have a great 
deal 
> of experience in the area.
> 
> One of the biggest issues it that so many of these quad inks are 
> being marketed for printers that are no longer in production. Even 
> the 3000 is now gone. If they really want to sell their inks they 
> need to provide a path that includes printers that are readily 
> available.
> 
> They also need to provide some basic software even if it is just 
some 
> RGB curves to use with the Epson driver. Do they honestly think 
there 
> is some mass market out here that will buy inks they have to 
develop 
> their own profiles for? 
> 
> At least ConeTech realized this part of the equation and provided 
> customer support as well. They still offer the most comfortable 
path 

> for people with little or no experience.
> 
> Martin Wesley

Mark,

Good points all and I agree 100%.

The rules for the commercial interests on the list are in Post #1 and 
both Robert of Crane and Allen of Lincoln Inks are good examples of 
following the spirit Antonis and I had in mind. They cab let us know 
about your products but should make yourself available to field 
questions about their product and share their expertise in general as 
a member of the group. If done well, this can be a win-win for users 
and manufacturers. Manufactures and dealers should be ready to deal 
with tough questions and forthright opinions.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> 
> wrote:
> > I tend to think another ink possibility for quads is "news" since 
> none of them do exactly what I want yet. I'll take 
> > information anywhere I can get it.
> 
> 
> 1. I have seen some retailers/manufacturers come into these 
> lists and begin the soft-spam behavior, and to me, it really 
> begins to dilute the quality of these lists. It's not really quite 
> spam, but it can get very heavy on sales and pricing. And this 
> B/W list I feel is particularly good, and free of commercial ties; 
so 

> maybe I'm a bit touchy and protective about any perceived 
> invasion from people who sell this stuff, rather than the people 
> who actually USE this stuff. 
> 
> Robert Rex, for example, is bragging on his papers, but at the 
> same time, he's also providing hard-core, substantive 
> information about the papers as well. He balances out his 
> salesmanship with cold, hard facts that are useful in the real 
> world, to the users.
> 
> 2. And speaking of people who use the stuff: I'm probably a bit 
> touchy too about companies who just bring products to market, 
> tout its greatnesses, and ease-of-use, and then the user buys it 
> and realizes that it's not really ready for prime-time. The user 
> pays full price to be, basically, the final beta-tester. I'm in for 
> thousands of dollars in recent past for software/hardware that 
> wasn't quite what it was promised, or at least, did not perform 
> properly right out of the box. So maybe I'm a bit touchy about that 
> too.
> 
> 3. I too wondered about Paul Roark's relationship with MIS. 
> Could he really be writing all these curves and transfers for free? 
> I guess he is, and if he is, I compliment his spirit of community 
> involvement. I would contribute something to this valued 
> community as well, if I knew what to do. 
> 
> But I also agree with Todd, I think, who asked about MIS. I have a 
> good friend with (I think) a 1200 and variable quads from MIS, 
> and he's pretty bummed for buying the inks, but for having no 
> curve to go with his printer. I do not know if he bought the inks 
> knowing that there was no curve, but it kinda makes sense to not 
> even sell something until it's finished. All I knows right now is 
> that he's pretty miffed about anything related to MIS, and that 
> makes for bad customer relations.
> 
> ----
> 
> So, that's just the way I feel. I'm not trying to be negative or 
> argumentative. I just feel like, on quality lists like these, which 
> are rare, retailers need to be kept on a short leash, and they 
> need to hear the full truth about what the experience is of buying 
> a product.
> 
> -http://marktucker.com

> Sometimes, as artists and printmakers, I think we are just too damn picky!
> 
> Jim Davis
> http://www.visual-artists.com

I don't know - I started my art dabbling in the early seventies and I
remember that no *true* artist would ever consider a CMYK offset print to be
suitable for art.  Silkscreen and Lithography on fine art paper yes.  Fiber
backed B&W paper yes, resin no.    Cibachrome - well maybe someday, if it
turns out to last and you can get it to look more like air dried glossy.
But plain old vanilla CMYK was a cheapo thing you did for catalogs and
magazines, not serious work -- except for a small art movement lead by a few
New York art types that made mass production and lack of impermanence the
statement of the art.  So fussiness sure isn't a new phenomenon.

For me - I just like to be picky and fussy 'cause that's my nature and I
don't need or even want art to be a significant source of my income so I can
engage in that luxury. Heck, I probably ought to just paint - but that is so
low tech don't you know.  Whatever turns your crank and/or pays the bills.
:-)

Dan

Terry,

I am afraid you are right. It is a "we sell the materials and it is 
up to you to figure out how to use them" approach. There is nothing 
wrong with that if honestly communicated and given the size of the 
market even understandable.

It sort of comes down to the old chicken or the egg. They don't 
support the software end because the market is too small and the 
market does indeed stay small. It seems like there are a lot of 
questions about how to get started in quad printing from people who 
have very little knowledge in the area and, as Mark Tucker said in an 
earlier post, they are likely to buy something assuming there is some 
support when there isn't. When this occurs it is bad for everyone.

Hopefully as the market and interest does grow someone will take an 
interest in the software side and customize an existing profiling 
package specifically for quad inks.

Thanks,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> 
> I really think the only reason that Inkjetmall offered the free 
> profiles was to generate interest in the ink prior to developing 
the 
> software that they intended to sell. Some manufacturers will offer 
> profiles usually with their brand of paper along with the ink, but 
> most choose not to for a good reason. Many potential buyers do not 
> yet understand how to utilize and apply the profiles which results 
in 
> great expense to support the profiles. The Enhanced Generations and 
> MIS archival inks have done exceptionally well even though there 
are 
> no profiles available.
> 
> Curves are a whole different ball of wax, even Cone makes you pay 
for 
> them with the Piezo B/W software. Paul Roark has probably done more 
> than anyone out there to help promote and generate interest in a 
> product that he does not even sell. I think that maybe with the 
> quads, many manufacturers treat the inks as paints if you will, 
> allowing the artist to utilize them in the way that they see fit. 
The 
> quad market is still relatively small and the attitude is that the 
> users that are interested are much more advanced.
> 
> There are a few companies that sell ink and paper that will offer 
> generic curves just to get someone interested in the products. I 
> guess that is just the nature of the market so to speak. I believe 
> that most companies will shy away from offering free curves, etc... 
> until the "novice" user can utilize them with little to no 
problems. 
> The vast majority of desktop users either do not have the tools, 
> time, or inclination to want to go that deep. Once there is an 
easier 
> way, maybe even at the O/S level, more interest will be shown by 
the 
> manufacturers.
> 
> Terry
> 
(snip)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
> wrote:
> Did you take 
> > my post as soft-spam? 
> > Tyler
> 
> Abosutely not.

Whew! Maybe I've had too much coffee today...

> I was just commenting (read: venting) in general. I completely 
> apologize about any miscommunication. (See why I'm single? I 
> failed "communication skills" in school).

Probably why we make pictures and keep the talking to a minimum
> 
> Or... maybe I'm petrified right now because I'm about 30 minutes 
> away from emptying my 7000 of color ink, and installing not only 
> the hextone variables, but also a CIS as well.

You have my deepest and sincerest sympathies! Have you prepared a will?
Tyler

Martin,


My hope is that through the efforts of Paul, Dan, and the many others 
that I have not mentioned from this list, that these alternative inks 
will gain popularity and thus increase the market to the point that 
the manufacturers are willing to invest the time and money to offer 
these curves. I thought of the Piezo B/W but shyed away due to the 
cost, the banding problems, the tone of the inks, nozzle plugging, 
etc... 

The Piezo system is the way to go for someone looking at getting into 
this, but you do pay for it, both in the cost of the inks, as well as 
the software, and as Henry said (with a little modification on my 
part) "Any tone you want as long as it is warm". 

My thinking when I first came across the curves and inks that Paul 
helped develop was "at this price, I wouldn't be out much if it 
didn't work" - that is when I took the plunge. I am no expert, but 
felt confident that I could apply some curves and print. I am now 
glad that I did.

Maybe at this point it would help to think of yourself as one of the 
great pioneers that will help make it possible for the masses <g> 
after all, you are the co list owner that has already helped get much 
of this info out there!

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:
> Terry,
> 
> I am afraid you are right. It is a "we sell the materials and it is 
> up to you to figure out how to use them" approach. There is nothing 
> wrong with that if honestly communicated and given the size of the 
> market even understandable.
> 
> It sort of comes down to the old chicken or the egg. They don't 
> support the software end because the market is too small and the 
> market does indeed stay small. It seems like there are a lot of 
> questions about how to get started in quad printing from people who 
> have very little knowledge in the area and, as Mark Tucker said in 
an 
> earlier post, they are likely to buy something assuming there is 
some 
> support when there isn't. When this occurs it is bad for everyone.
> 
> Hopefully as the market and interest does grow someone will take an 
> interest in the software side and customize an existing profiling 
> package specifically for quad inks.
> 
> Thanks,
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" 
<terryr1028@h...> 
> wrote:
> > Martin,
> > 
> > 
> > I really think the only reason that Inkjetmall offered the free 
> > profiles was to generate interest in the ink prior to developing 
> the 
> > software that they intended to sell. Some manufacturers will 
offer 
> > profiles usually with their brand of paper along with the ink, 
but 
> > most choose not to for a good reason. Many potential buyers do 
not 
> > yet understand how to utilize and apply the profiles which 
results 
> in 
> > great expense to support the profiles. The Enhanced Generations 
and 
> > MIS archival inks have done exceptionally well even though there 
> are 
> > no profiles available.
> > 
> > Curves are a whole different ball of wax, even Cone makes you pay 
> for 
> > them with the Piezo B/W software. Paul Roark has probably done 
more 
> > than anyone out there to help promote and generate interest in a 
> > product that he does not even sell. I think that maybe with the 
> > quads, many manufacturers treat the inks as paints if you will, 
> > allowing the artist to utilize them in the way that they see fit. 
> The 
> > quad market is still relatively small and the attitude is that 
the 
> > users that are interested are much more advanced.
> > 
> > There are a few companies that sell ink and paper that will offer 
> > generic curves just to get someone interested in the products. I 
> > guess that is just the nature of the market so to speak. I 
believe 
> > that most companies will shy away from offering free curves, 
etc... 

> > until the "novice" user can utilize them with little to no 
> problems. 
> > The vast majority of desktop users either do not have the tools, 
> > time, or inclination to want to go that deep. Once there is an 
> easier 
> > way, maybe even at the O/S level, more interest will be shown by 
> the 
> > manufacturers.
> > 
> > Terry
> > 
> (snip)

> Dan, I'm always intrigued by these ideas. I keep wondering what sort of "mode"
> we'd need in Photoshop. Some sort of
> multichannel mode that has custom ink setups? Then a multichannel RIP?
> Tyler

Presuming you are crazy enough (see last post) to want to do the separations
in Photoshop what you would need is a RIP that prints spot channels.  One
RIP manufacturer (Best RIP I think) told me that his RIP already took each
channel as it came and printed it to each head for as many channels as you
make and/or the printer has heads.  There are already Photoshop plugins
that take RGB files and separate them into hex channels and other plugins
that allow you to craft a set of "bump plates" to lay in non-CMYK inks such
as extra blues etc. into CMYK files as spot channels.  These are made for
six ink presses where you can print a couple of extra inks (any inks) at a
premium price. The pieces are probably already there for desktop printers if
you want to spend enough.  But I question if there will be enough people who
like separating their own channels to make any such solution cheap enough to
use with a cheap desktop printer.

On the grayscale front - Red, Green, and Blue inks with three grays is
already doable with the old Yarc 7000 Xtreme.  Not totally sure how to
softproof profile it but I have some ideas.  That is an experiment I will
probably try when 7000s are cheap enough for me to buy a couple.

Dan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> My hope is that through the efforts of Paul, Dan, and the many 
others 
> that I have not mentioned from this list, that these alternative 
inks 
> will gain popularity and thus increase the market to the point that 
> the manufacturers are willing to invest the time and money to offer 
> these curves. 

Terry,

I believe that you are right on this. I think that we get so intent, 
it is easy to lose sight of just how small the market really is but I 
think there is a growing interest.

> I thought of the Piezo B/W but shyed away due to the 
> cost, the banding problems, the tone of the inks, nozzle plugging, 
> etc... 

I started with Piezo but was never really happy with the color, 
strictly a matter of personal taste, and I could never quite 
eliminate the microscopic banding on my 1200. However I have seen 
Piezo prints that were flawless.
> 
> The Piezo system is the way to go for someone looking at getting 
into 
> this, but you do pay for it, both in the cost of the inks, as well 
as 
> the software, and as Henry said (with a little modification on my 
> part) "Any tone you want as long as it is warm".

The current "buy in" with a refurbished 1200 from Epson and CIS is 
about $1,000. I hate to send people off hunting for 1160's anymore. 
When Piezo comes out for the 1280 that will be the way to go but I 
bet the total cost with the printer will be $1,200 to $1,300.

Even my 1280, CIS and MIS VM setup cost me $850. 
> 
> My thinking when I first came across the curves and inks that Paul 
> helped develop was "at this price, I wouldn't be out much if it 
> didn't work" - that is when I took the plunge. I am no expert, but 
> felt confident that I could apply some curves and print. I am now 
> glad that I did.

My feelings are the same. Yesterday I worked out a simple adjustment 
curve to take my files that were adjusted to print with Piezo to 
apply when I want to print them with the Neutral MIS VM curve. Now I 
would really like to develop my knowledge and skills to be able to do 
my own ink/paper profiles. I think that this may be necessary given 
the printer-to-printer variations in the 1270-90 family you discussed 
elsewhere.
> 
> Maybe at this point it would help to think of yourself as one of 
the 
> great pioneers that will help make it possible for the masses <g> 
> after all, you are the co list owner that has already helped get 
much 
> of this info out there!

Well one of the motivations to get this list going was to get 
information for myself and boy has it worked! I may just be suffering 
from information over load at this point, which is making it 
difficult to settle into a workflow and start turning out prints.

Martin

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:
> > Terry,
> > 
> > I am afraid you are right. It is a "we sell the materials and it 
is 
> > up to you to figure out how to use them" approach. There is 
nothing 
> > wrong with that if honestly communicated and given the size of 
the 
> > market even understandable.
> > 
> > It sort of comes down to the old chicken or the egg. They don't 
> > support the software end because the market is too small and the 
> > market does indeed stay small. It seems like there are a lot of 
> > questions about how to get started in quad printing from people 
who 
> > have very little knowledge in the area and, as Mark Tucker said 
in 
> an 
> > earlier post, they are likely to buy something assuming there is 
> some 
> > support when there isn't. When this occurs it is bad for everyone.
> > 
> > Hopefully as the market and interest does grow someone will take 
an 
> > interest in the software side and customize an existing profiling 
> > package specifically for quad inks.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Martin
> > 
(snip)

Thanks for your support Harvey!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Hap Mullenneaux wrote:
>
> > "Actually, I am the list moderator but not the manufacturer.  ...At
> > the present, those interested will have to rely on other users input
> > and comments until we have established a website or literature!"
> >
> > Jim Robbins, AllSquare (888) 286-8801
> >
> >
> > We?
>
> Aw, come on guys.........
>
> 'We', I assume is Jim's Company, 'All Square', not the manufacturer of the
inks.
>
> We are not talking about Microsoft or Epson here.  If people don't want
new, independent ink sources, so be
> it.  But if they do, then there has to be at least a little trust about
the possibility that someone might
> come up with a new inking system.  Without that, there will never be
change.  If the big guys are not
> challenged by outsiders, they have no reason to improve.

It is not a case of not trusting. There are now at least 10 manufacturers of
papers and probably as many ink manufacturers all after our business.

In the past it was probably quite ok to run out and buy new papers and new
inks at a drop of the hat. We were all looking for the holy grail. We were
all paying beta sites for these companies. From a manufacturer stand point
that was great. All these customers doing research and development for them
and paying good money on top of it. Man I like that concept.

As users of these products we have become better educated and now we want to
see some solid facts, on new products, before we jump into the swamp.

I for one want to know if there are any alligators hiding under the water
before I jump.

Jim Davis
Make Your Site SELL! (MYSS!)
The best art in the world is useless......if you can't sell it.
What's the point of traffic...if no one's buying your art?
Order MYSS! TODAY... increase your sales TOMORROW
http://myss.sitesell.com/artists.html
jarthurdavis@...  voice: 717-566-3794   fax: 561-431-8032
http://www.visual-artists.com

Hey Guys and Gals,

Again,  I am not the ink manufacturer, yet I am heading up the marketing of 
this product.  When I say "we", I mean Indelible and AllSquare along with 
Mike Welch of M&M Studios in Florida, Tony Caltabiano from Higher Place 
Studios in Corona CA will be working together to spreading the word and info 
about this product.  

We are not forcing anyone to do anything at all.  We simply saw a great 
opportunity to offer a nice ink formulation and thought others would like to 
know.  We would love to get to all of your questions as quick as possible.  
This might be a slow process and one saying comes to mind "Good things come 
to those who wait!"

To clear one other thing up, I am selling the ink as of right now, but we are 
not forcing it on anyone.  We have simply stated that many testers have found 
great results.  I am speaking of the color set, not the B&W.  My main 
responsibility was to offer those consumers who use the Epson Stylus Pro 7000 
or 9000 a longer lasting ink with a better gamut than Epson own pigment ink.  
When I realized there was such a huge market for the smaller format(desktop) 
units out there, we decided to also target them.  This ink is not bundled 
with any software or drivers.  We have users that will be profiling the 
Indelibles with certain papers but as of right now, we are like I said 
"Ground Level"  

I hope I was able to clear any other questions or concerns up and I will be 
redirecting the rest of my posts to the InkOptions group.  I will however 
still monitor this group and continue to put in my 2 cents.  Good Luck!!!

Jim Robbins
AllSquare Computer Technologies
(888) 286-8801
www.allsquare.com

BTW, Robert Rex with Museo has seen the Indelibles first hand and actually 
met Gary Finnoe(the creator of the ink).  I was hoping he would add his 
information for the rest of you but I have yet to see that.  Come on Robert, 
tell us what you know!  Help me out here!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "J. Arthur Davis" 
<jarthurdavis@e...> wrote:
> It is not a case of not trusting. There are now at least 10 
manufacturers of
> papers and probably as many ink manufacturers all after our 
business.


It is bigger than just inkjet; it's the whole computer business. I 
agree with Jim here; it's a maturing business now, and we don't 
jump automatically at the next new set of "New and Improved". 
My attitude could probably benefit with a good case of amnesia. 
I'll list of some the things that I talk to with my therapist:

1. The Nikon LS4500: Supposedly "great" medium format 
scanner. I paid, used, about $7500. It made lousy, lousy scans. 
And when it went down I could get no support for it, even from a 
company as large as Nikon. One time that it went in for service, 
they forgot to even open the box, and just sent it right back to me. 
I've never felt so bad as when I sold it; I'm sure that next guy is 
sitting in HIS therapist's office, talking about ME.

2. The Epson 7500 ($5400): I somehow missed the section in 
their marketing materials that advised you not to print B/W 
images with it. They gladly took my money, touting all the way 
how great the printer was. Not only could you not print a 21step 
wedge with all chips the same color, but if you took it to a window 
to view it, it turned green. (I will say, they took the printer back and 
refunded my money).

3. Profiling Software/Hardware: Also an expensive investment. 
The claims are high, until you really want critical results, then you 
start hearing that you can't really get GREAT profiles until you 
invest in software that reads four or five thousand patches; 729 
is just not enough. Also it seems like the Xrite DTP41 is about 
the only reader that'll get close in these "inexpensive" handhelds. 
And it's about two grand.

--------

I just feel a bit like the bait-and-switch thing at a car lot. 
Promises, promises, then you buy, then all you need to do is 
drop another two grand to get REALLY good quality.

Part of why I'm voicing this publicly, Harvey, is that I wished 
someone had said all this publicly to ME. I think then, I would 
have had a bit more realistic expectations about inkjet printing. I 
come out of eighteen years of anal-retentive fiber B/W printing, 
so admittedly, I'm a pretty tough customer. But I also agree with 
what Martin said in an earlier post: if some of the limitations of 
these products are stated up front, in advance, then maybe I 
wouldn't feel kinda burned. But when you're dropping thousands 
at a time, it's hard to keep a good attitude when the prior product 
wasnt' up to snuff. 

I'm sorry and I apologize if my tone got a bit out of hand. But 
sometimes, I think a good stiff dose of honesty is good for a 
reality-check; it can also save in the pocketbook and in the 
frustration factor.

I agree that many of the people in this group probably ARE on the 
cutting edge of quality B/W inkjet printing. I guess it would be 
good for me to remember that. I guess many of these solutions 
are not gonna be perfect right out of the box. I just wish there was 
even the slightest bit of conditional/qualifying language in their 
claims though, BEFORE I write the check.

I've found the guys at Lincoln Inks, MIS, George Coon, and 
Robert Rex to be pretty forthcoming. If you ask them a straight 
question, you'll get a straight answer. (You might have to ask it 
two or three ways, but you'll finally get there!). Also, Tony C 
seems to be a straight shooter, from what I've read. I was just 
concerned to see a whole new list pop up; we've got enough 
work to do on this list to keep us all busy for months! 

-Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
snip...
> I'll list of some the things that I talk to with my therapist:
> 
Oh man, don't stop there!
How about hardware monitor calibration? How many times have you heard about someone investing in that only to have it 
look just like what Adobe Gamma did for free?
Scanner based profiling (if you're just using OEM ink and paper)?
Anybody besides me buy an Orb drive? Yikes!
Luminos Platinum 75 year inks and papers?
Drugstore.com stock?
Women with tattoos?
... or any piercings at all?

I'd better stop...
Tyler

Mark,

I agree with you! But, we have two parallel threads going on here... yours
re: manufacturers and resellers claims. Others, re: failure of resellers to
support new product with software and profiles i.e. one might say... the
_lack_ of claims ???! (or substantiated claims, or claims with backup of
profiles or...)

That's my perception of the threads anyways.

How can one explain the differences between some products, like the
different 'levels' of colour management... or quantify the flatness of a
film held in a film holder? Or the colour stability of a lamp, or the
consistency in grinding of pigment particles in an ink formulation? Or...?
And even if you can explain that eg. a 700-sample profile is better than a
200 profile, how much better is it if you are using a scanner than a
photospectrothiingummy? (Like all those ?100 USB scanners with 19200 dpi
scanning resolution!)

So, do we as consumers really want sales pitches that go like:
"Buy our new scanner, it scans really great 8000dpi at 16bpp, but of course,
it takes an hour to scan a single image, and when you realise how much time
it takes to handle 600MB files you'll be wanting our chunky RAID, new
DVD-writer, a workstation, and new lights to appreciate the colour
management (which is mid-range - buy our super enhanced package for...)"

Or "Profiles for many popular papers, only ?30 each!"

Or "Free profiles!"

I know I prefer honesty in theory... but in practice... ???

Nij


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...]
<snip>
> Part of why I'm voicing this publicly, Harvey, is that I wished
> someone had said all this publicly to ME. I think then, I would
> have had a bit more realistic expectations about inkjet printing. I
> come out of eighteen years of anal-retentive fiber B/W printing,
> so admittedly, I'm a pretty tough customer. But I also agree with
> what Martin said in an earlier post: if some of the limitations of
> these products are stated up front, in advance, then maybe I
> wouldn't feel kinda burned. But when you're dropping thousands
> at a time, it's hard to keep a good attitude when the prior product
> wasnt' up to snuff.
<snip>

That's it the name of this thread needs to change!

Nij,

Points taken but this is a very grey area indeed and not B&W, but I 
guess it is still on topic.<<G>>

In theory, "Let the buyer beware!" But the seller should remember 
that there is very little marketing value in a totally disappointed 
customer and the customers are getting more educated all the time.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> I agree with you! But, we have two parallel threads going on 
here... yours
> re: manufacturers and resellers claims. Others, re: failure of 
resellers to
> support new product with software and profiles i.e. one might 
say... the
> _lack_ of claims ???! (or substantiated claims, or claims with 
backup of
> profiles or...)
> 
> That's my perception of the threads anyways.
> 
> How can one explain the differences between some products, like the
> different 'levels' of colour management... or quantify the flatness 
of a
> film held in a film holder? Or the colour stability of a lamp, or 
the
> consistency in grinding of pigment particles in an ink formulation? 
Or...?
> And even if you can explain that eg. a 700-sample profile is better 
than a
> 200 profile, how much better is it if you are using a scanner than a
> photospectrothiingummy? (Like all those ?100 USB scanners with 
19200 dpi
> scanning resolution!)
> 
> So, do we as consumers really want sales pitches that go like:
> "Buy our new scanner, it scans really great 8000dpi at 16bpp, but 
of course,
> it takes an hour to scan a single image, and when you realise how 
much time
> it takes to handle 600MB files you'll be wanting our chunky RAID, 
new
> DVD-writer, a workstation, and new lights to appreciate the colour
> management (which is mid-range - buy our super enhanced package 
for...)"
> 
> Or "Profiles for many popular papers, only ?30 each!"
> 
> Or "Free profiles!"
> 
> I know I prefer honesty in theory... but in practice... ???
> 
> Nij
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@m...]
> <snip>
> > Part of why I'm voicing this publicly, Harvey, is that I wished
> > someone had said all this publicly to ME. I think then, I would
> > have had a bit more realistic expectations about inkjet printing. 
I
> > come out of eighteen years of anal-retentive fiber B/W printing,
> > so admittedly, I'm a pretty tough customer. But I also agree with
> > what Martin said in an earlier post: if some of the limitations of
> > these products are stated up front, in advance, then maybe I
> > wouldn't feel kinda burned. But when you're dropping thousands
> > at a time, it's hard to keep a good attitude when the prior 
product
> > wasnt' up to snuff.
> <snip>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> 
wrote:
> Mark,
> I know I prefer honesty in theory... but in practice... ???

But Nigel, wouldn't it be SO refreshing to have a company just 
state right up front what to expect? For me, a company like that 
would get my loyalty right off the bat. 

When I watch TV, and I see ads, I make a practice of reading that 
fine print at the bottom of the ad FIRST, in order to see the REAL 
truth about what they're advertising. Because you can almost bet 
nowadays that the big bold type is really a lie. (It makes me 
embarrassed to be in the advertising business sometimes).

Or, why not some kind of "Good/Better/Best" approach to inkjet 
products? "Good" is just a canned profile; nothing custom. You 
print with the inks that come with the printer, and the paper that 
comes with the printer. You get what you get (but I will say, that 
with Epson paper, and Epson ink, and Epson's canned profile 
for my 7000, the prints are VERY nice. Maybe not great, but very 
nice). "Better" would mean you're willing to mess around with 
basic Color Management, and you might want to pay more for a 
more advanced profile; even one done for you by the company, 
after you set up your printer. "Best" would mean that you'd get a 
custom profile, and like ProfileCity does, you'd get some type of 
continuing profile support, where they'd monitor your printer for 
up to two years to watch for printer "drift". And possibly some tech 
support time.

I'm sorta kidding with the above example, but not really. It would 
give you a subtle warning that maybe "Good" wasn't enough for 
picky people, and might give people who bought that level 
reason to just settle for whatever quality it gave, right out of the 
box. (My bet is this is "good enough" for the vast majority of 
people out there). But for more demanding people 
(professionals) you'd get a subtle sign that it might not be plug n 
play, at least to your demands.

-------

I've done profiles, and I've bought profiles, and I'd pay GOOD 
money for one done properly. I always wondered why more 
people weren't doing them as a service, but then I heard about 
that ColorVision clause (and possibly other companies too) that 
barred people from buying the product and then going into 
business selling custom ones done with their software. (Can 
you do this in America, I ask?) Anyway, the KEY is a good profile. 
(Or now for me, a good "curve" from Paul Roark....)

-----------

I made my 31 prints for this exchange on my MIS color inks, just 
in case my hex VM prints are lame, and it takes me forever to get 
it going. This exchange is gonna be like getting photographed 
with your britches down; it's gonna be the real truth! There's no 
talking your way out of it, or giving excuses! But if I get good 
results out of the variables quickly, I guess I'll make a set of 
prints with those too.

-----------

QUOTE OF THE DAY: "I always tell young photographers, 
'Discover the world. Take pictures. Live cheaply'. Some day, I 
want to write a book on love and living from the heart. To show 
things from my early years as a secretary and then as a 
wanderer. I did everything I could just to be able to take pictures. I 
worked on a farm; I traveled like a gypsy. I learned so much and 
had so much fun. Nobody owned me. I didn't have a credit card. I 
lived off the kindness of strangers generous enough to me who 
gave me food to eat and a darkroom to print in".  -- Donna 
Ferrato, from "Witness in Our Time", by Ken Light.

-Mark Tucker

Yes yes yes! (I hope to be that person in time!)
But, I suppose my point was more about exactly what you mention... THE SMALL
PRINT :)

SMALL PRINT is boring! And, as we are learning, there is a LOT of it,
especially if you want to cover every single potential user... and you can
make some of it big type - "Not for gloss papers" perhaps, but that still
leaves a lot of small print!

I like your idea about simplifying to a 'wooly' scale of GOOD BETTER BEST or
similar, and yes, that probably would work for Co*or profiles, or Curves for
B&W (if anyone sold them)!

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...]
>
> But Nigel, wouldn't it be SO refreshing to have a company just
> state right up front what to expect? For me, a company like that
> would get my loyalty right off the bat.
>
<snip>

on 9/10/01 7:01 PM, Mark Tucker wrote:

> I've done profiles, and I've bought profiles, and I'd pay GOOD
> money for one done properly. I always wondered why more
> people weren't doing them as a service, but then I heard about
> that ColorVision clause (and possibly other companies too) that
> barred people from buying the product and then going into
> business selling custom ones done with their software. (Can
> you do this in America, I ask?)


You can use these products to sell profiles, but you must get permission
from the manufacturer for that, probably, but not assuredly, at a price
(Some of the higher priced packages might include such "usage rights").
There is a whole color management consulting industry out there that does
just that. Think of people/companies like, Bruce Fraser, Andrew Rodney, C
David Tobie, Jon Cone, Profile City, and many many more you'll find slacking
on the Colorsync list. ;-)

Todd

> 
> I was just commenting (read: venting) in general. I completely
> apologize about any miscommunication. (See why I'm single? I
> failed "communication skills" in school).

I wouldn't worry about that.  I'm single because I failed sex education in
school.

Dan Culbertson

At 09:16 PM 9/9/2001 +0000, Martin Wesley wrote:


>I don't intend to single them out, although I guess I have. They are
>just one more company who seems to think that the market for quads
>consists purely of experienced users. If that were the case it would
>be nice to say up front that these are not meant for the novice or
>average users rather than to make light of the lack of software.
>
>Everyone else has done the same thing except for ConeTech.


Which likely accounts for the large difference in price between ConeTech 
and the other guys.



****************
James E. Martz
Milan, OH
jemartz@...
*****************

> Why not a flatbed printer, say 3x4 feet, with 2 sets of separate 6 color
> heads. The paper would be vacuum held to the bed. One set of heads would
> make a pass and drop the CMYKLcLm the second head would follow and drop the
> next 6 colors. Engineers are smart enough to build such printers now, the
> alignment of the two set of heads can already be done. The software side of
> it may be a bit of a challange. After reading Dan's post that may also be
> relative simple. The big thing would be the cost. You are not going to be
> able to buy this printer for $5000.00
> 
> Jim Davis

Back when I thought I might be able to get reasonable registration between
two 3000 printers I filled one 3000 with MIS CMYK inks and another with MIS
light cyan and light magenta with the remaining two channels reserved for a
blue and violet whenever they should appear.  I found I could make a profile
based on running the target file the same way I ran the print - make a spot
bump channel for the light cyan and light magenta and suppress the regular
cyan and regular magenta in the highlights.  But that was in Photoshop 5
days and I needed to do it with two profiles and a curve - one profile to
convert the RGB to standard printer RGB space and the other (a faux CMYK
profile) to preview the file as I applied the curve that suppressed the
highlights while I turned on the bump spot channels.  In other words it was
a pain in the rump but showed promise, even with the RGB driver.  But the
lack of registration between two separate 3000s was pretty much the killer
of that idea.  Really it is mostly a matter of some sort of multi-strike
printing with very good registration.  If someone made a printer like you
suggest and it didn't break the bank I'd be stuffing it with multi-hued inks
and spending all my time in experimental bliss - especially since I could
put in multiple grays as well!

Blatner and Fraser describe how to do a bump plate in Real World Photoshop
and reference a plug-in that does it automatically.  Not all that hard to do
actually - at least not hard compared to some manual quad separation methods
- but getting a way to profile and preview the combination of the regular
inks and the added inks is what becomes difficult (or at least complex and
confusing).  The spot channel controls in Photoshop only approximate the
appearance of the resulting print but if you have a large run and can tweak
the file until it prints right that might be a reasonable approach.  In
Photoshop 6 you convert to standard printer RGB space, turn on the RGB
softproof feature with the black ink simulation feature, then lay in a spot
channel and adjust its color and opacity to match a test print.

For experimenters: there is no reason that these bump plates have to be
limited to non-standard inks on a special printer.  If you can roll back a
7000 and reprint or get reasonable double strike capability with some other
printer you can bump any standard ink (including the black in quadtone
printers) by making a spot channel and turning it off on the first strike
then turning it on (and turning the main image off) on the second strike.  I
think someone posted something like that on this list about a month back -
but again, making an *accurate* previewing profile might get pretty nasty.

Dan

James,

That was my point. People are indeed willing to pay for ease of use 
and customer support. It is a very successful way to run a business. 
If some one else wants to offer a complete package similar to 
ConeTech's, then there will be some competition and prices will come 
down.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "James E. Martz" 
<jemartz@e...> wrote:
> At 09:16 PM 9/9/2001 +0000, Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> 
> >I don't intend to single them out, although I guess I have. They 
are
> >just one more company who seems to think that the market for quads
> >consists purely of experienced users. If that were the case it 
would
> >be nice to say up front that these are not meant for the novice or
> >average users rather than to make light of the lack of software.
> >
> >Everyone else has done the same thing except for ConeTech.
> 
> 
> Which likely accounts for the large difference in price between 
ConeTech 

> and the other guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ****************
> James E. Martz
> Milan, OH
> jemartz@e...
> *****************

At 06:26 AM 9/11/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>James,
>
>That was my point. People are indeed willing to pay for ease of use
>and customer support. It is a very successful way to run a business.
>If some one else wants to offer a complete package similar to
>ConeTech's, then there will be some competition and prices will come
>down.
>
>Martin

But I think you were coming down rather hard on those who want to offer the 
cheaper methods which require more work.  And to me, it's been obvious from 
the get go that this was the case.


****************
James E. Martz
Milan, OH
jemartz@...
*****************

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
(snip)
> 
> -----------
> 
> I made my 31 prints for this exchange on my MIS color inks, just 
> in case my hex VM prints are lame, and it takes me forever to get 
> it going. This exchange is gonna be like getting photographed 
> with your britches down; it's gonna be the real truth! There's no 
> talking your way out of it, or giving excuses! But if I get good 
> results out of the variables quickly, I guess I'll make a set of 
> prints with those too.
> 
> -----------

Mark,

I hope you send out your 31 prints with the MIS color ink even if the 
MIS VM prints do come out. I would really like to see what someone is 
doing with the color sets to get monochrome prints! Or at least send 
me one before you put them in the trash!

Martin