Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----

From: <jharvey@...>
> OK, Some of you have had experience with the Colorbyte software RIP.
> At this point, what do you think its value is for B&W printing with
> the New Epson color Inks as well as the Inks available through MIS,
> Jon Cone, Etc..Is it Definately worth the money?

I've been happy with ImagePrint (IP) for my 2200 simply because it's given
me neutral B&W prints with no noticeable metamerism.  But the prints don't
compare to piezography.  The 2200 through IP looks good, but there are more
noticeable dots in the highlights than what you can do with a quadtone ink
set.

What I'm not happy about is the price.  For desktop printers it's $500 for a
single printer.  To add another desktop, I believe they quoted me an
additional $375.  That gets you 90 days of support and upgrades from them.
It's an additional $500 every year after for support and upgrades, and I
believe the maintenance price is per printer as well!  And, you have to stay
current with your maintenance contract to take advantage of their paper
profiling service.

I think IP would probably perform very well with quadtone inks.  In fact, if
money grew on trees, I'd buy an additional IP license for a 1280 and use it
with the MIS FS or VM inks.  But, I'm not going to put any more money into
this since this is just my hobby.  It's not my profession.

If you can hold off until March, Jon Cone is going to announce new software
for his Piezotone inks at PMA.  I'm curious to see if this will be a custom
version of IP for use with his inks only.  I know he thinks highly of the
software.

If you've never used IP before, be prepared for a sharp learning curve.
There are many aspects of the user interface that are non-intuitive, and
they haven't updated their documentation to include the 2200 yet which
caused me a lot of grief immediately after I installed it.  I don't know if
it's only the 2200 that was left out or if there are other printers not
mentioned in the documentation.  Also, with the desktop "version", don't try
to use any of the color correction tools even though they are active and
appear to work.  It will -- without informing you -- switch into "demo mode"
and you'll only know this once you print and see the word DEMO stamped
across your images.

I wish I could say it is definitely worth the money, but I can't.  I feel
like I just paid 1st class prices for a coach seat, and I'm locked into that
price if I want to book a return flight.  I suspect they're alienating a lot
of potential users off the bat with their pricing and maintenance policy.

I recommend you get the demo version and try it for yourself before you buy.
Call them on the phone to order it though.  I've had problems getting email
through to their tech support in the past, so I recommend dealing with them
over the phone.

I think if ColorByte improved the user interface and brought the pricing
back down to earth, they'd have a fantastic product and would make more
money because more people would buy it.

--Tom

I think if ColorByte improved the user interface and brought the pricing
back down to earth, they'd have a fantastic product and would make more
money because more people would buy it.

--Tom


***************
I wouldn't count on their interface improving much or at all. I have
been using their scanner software (Powercolor) for years and the
interface is still clunky and the documentation is poor.  I will say
that their technical help is first class though.

MZ

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Fors" 
<tom@f...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jharvey@i...>
> > OK, Some of you have had experience with the Colorbyte software 
RIP.
> > At this point, what do you think its value is for B&W printing 
with
> > the New Epson color Inks as well as the Inks available through 
MIS,
> > Jon Cone, Etc..Is it Definately worth the money?
> 
> I've been happy with ImagePrint (IP) for my 2200 simply because it's 
given
> me neutral B&W prints with no noticeable metamerism.  But the prints 
don't
> compare to piezography.  The 2200 through IP looks good, but there 
are more
> noticeable dots in the highlights than what you can do with a 
quadtone ink
> set.


Well, okay maybe, but what magnification are you looking at them with? 
Just eyeballing Paul's enhanced step wedge, the 5% to 0%k look great 
with my 2200 and IP5...

I just compared 5%k  IP5 on photorag with 5%k  MIS VM 1440 on Legion 
Photomat (sorry, the only wedges I have at the ready at the moment), 
and with an 8x loupe there definitely are dots apparent on both, the 
VM dots being a little rougher. The dots on the IP5 photorag tend to 
blend into the the little texture that paper has. FWIW. Photomat is 
smoother though...


My prioity #1 is: get something, anything, that works without killing 
printer, turning green, etc. The old Piezo inks broke down on me, and 
messed up my 1160. So I'm gunshy of Piezo, perhaps now unfairly with 
the PT inks. To be fair, I haven't tried the PT inks, and MIS VM inks 
have given me all kinds of clogging grief in my dry climate. I am 
currently investigating an intermitant banding problem with the 2200, 
but I'm finding that it doesn't show up very often- and Colorbyte 
folks say I probably have a defective printer. It doesn't clog hardly 
at all except for that one day when I ran about 20 prints. MIS VM inks 
in my 1280 clogged every 12 hours-1 1/2 days by comparison.

Comparing  prints w/MIS VM 2880dpi curves ( obtained privately from 
Paul) with IP5 output, well, IP5 just blows it away. Maybe the 
standard finished 1440 dpi curves would work better. There is greater 
detail and at the same time more even transistions across tones. Also, 
there are even steps across the step wedge, no color casts, etc. Only 
thing is from about 96%k to 100%k values are a wee bit compressed. 
Using Eclipse paper I currently have a mottling problem at 100%k which 
I'm working on now with colorbyte. VM inkset has the same issue which 
can be corrected by tweaking curves. Photorag is better.

> 
> What I'm not happy about is the price.  For desktop printers it's 
$500 for a
> single printer.

Agreed. This is a killer.



  To add another desktop, I believe they quoted me an
> additional $375.  That gets you 90 days of support and upgrades from 
them.


Yes the 90 days bother me greatly, esp since they're not done 
re-writing the software! For example, they don't tell you but you 
can't yet print MAT papers at 2880....this capability will be added 
very shortly they say. Photo k papers are supported 2880 now.

OTOH, tech support is great. They need to update their manual though, 
adding tricks like how to REALLY set up a firewire printer in Win2000. 
What is stated now on website is incorrect.

> It's an additional $500 every year after for support and upgrades, 
and I
> believe the maintenance price is per printer as well!

John at colorbyte told me after the first purchase, no maintainance 
agreements for the 2200 could be bought, even for another $500. 7600 
is another story. Seems odd though- you'd think they wouldn't mind 
taking our money...maybe I heard it wrong.

  And, you have 
to stay
> current with your maintenance contract to take advantage of their 
paper
> profiling service.


John at Colorbyte told me even after 90 days runs out, I could always 
send in a target to get a new paper profiled. No time limit on this 
service- and it is planned to be free.

> 
> I think IP would probably perform very well with quadtone inks.  In 
fact, if
> money grew on trees, I'd buy an additional IP license for a 1280 and 
use it
> with the MIS FS or VM inks.

If I lived in Florida instead of 5000 feet above sea level and 20-40% 
humidity I'd consider it...


  But, I'm not going to put any more 
money into
> this since this is just my hobby.  It's not my profession.


Sort of my situation, though I continually show in a co-op gallery.

> 
> If you can hold off until March, Jon Cone is going to announce new 
software
> for his Piezotone inks at PMA.  I'm curious to see if this will be a 
custom
> version of IP for use with his inks only.  I know he thinks highly 
of the
> software.



> 
> If you've never used IP before, be prepared for a sharp learning 
curve.
> There are many aspects of the user interface that are non-intuitive,


Well I learn fast, being one of those that actually WILL read a 600 
page manual (no IP5 manual is not that long<g>) and snarf it down. I 
would phrase it as "too many features built in". You can just bypass a 
lot of stuff. I was up and running in two days, not counting firewire 
problems. I was surprised to find that the most difficult part of the 
interface was determining where to place image in the printing field 
displayed, as it automatically adds borders to edge (left and right 
edge 1/8 inch, top edge 3/16 inch for letter sized). So There's some 
fractional math to go through.

The most important part of IP5 is getting the color management 
settings right.

 
and
> they haven't updated their documentation to include the 2200 yet 
which
> caused me a lot of grief immediately after I installed it.

Yes, I hear you there. Two sentences would have made clear how to set 
up 2200 with firewire...

  I don't 
know if
> it's only the 2200 that was left out or if there are other printers 
not
> mentioned in the documentation.  Also, with the desktop "version", 
don't try
> to use any of the color correction tools even though they are active 
and
> appear to work.  It will -- without informing you -- switch into 
"demo mode"
> and you'll only know this once you print and see the word DEMO 
stamped
> across your images.

And expect to find strange bugs here and there.I tried a step and 
repeat, couldn't get image dupes to show up on monitor, so I just 
printed- and it printed "white" no ink) where  stepped images "were". 
I need to read that part of manual again.

> 
> I wish I could say it is definitely worth the money, but I can't.  I 
feel
> like I just paid 1st class prices for a coach seat, and I'm locked 
into that
> price if I want to book a return flight.  I suspect they're 
alienating a lot
> of potential users off the bat with their pricing and maintenance 
policy.

Hear hear. I think $300 might be reasonable. OR, extend the warranty 
out to 1 year. Oh well, it IS a good product.

> 
> I recommend you get the demo version and try it for yourself before 
you buy.

Good idea.

> Call them on the phone to order it though.  I've had problems 
getting email
> through to their tech support in the past, so I recommend dealing 
with them
> over the phone.
>

I've had luck with e-mail too. When you phone (tech support), you have 
to leave a number for a call back. So have your cell phone on to 
intercept the return call when it comes...<g> The sales number (and 
the number on site) is different, and 50% of time I have found a real 
human on the other side of the line.
 
> I think if ColorByte improved the user interface and brought the 
pricing
> back down to earth, they'd have a fantastic product and would make 
more
> money because more people would buy it.

Agreed. I'd add that as is, I am satisfied with it's performance. I 
just wish Santa had bought it for me<g>.
Jim H.

> 
> --Tom

----- Original Message -----

From: <jimhayes@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions


>
> Well, okay maybe, but what magnification are you looking at them with?
> Just eyeballing Paul's enhanced step wedge, the 5% to 0%k look great
> with my 2200 and IP5...

I'm looking at it with no additional magnification.  Granted though, my nose
is about 12 inches from the print.  When printing Paul's step wedge with the
Epson driver, I can see no dots in the highlights, but even using the gray
balancer, I get noticable metamerism for B&W prints.  With IP, even though I
notice more dots in the highlights, I didn't mean to imply it was a
show-stopper.  It is very good, and I'm very happy with the neutral prints
that exhibit no noticeable metamerism.  If there were septone gray inks
available for the 2200, or even some kind of color/gray hybrid ink set, I
think the 2200 would make the ultimate B&W desktop machine.  I asked
colorbyte about support for 3rd party inks and the answer I got from Daniel
in tech support was:

# We do plan to keep updating our support for the quadtones and MIS,
although
# its tough to say positively which ones and when.  As they come out, we
# usually fit them into our schedule as soon as possible.

> I am currently investigating an intermitant banding problem with the
> 2200, but I'm finding that it doesn't show up very often- and
> Colorbyte folks say I probably have a defective printer.

That's interesting.  There was only once I noticed banding with my 2200 and
that was immediately after I switched from matte black to photo black.
After a second print, it went away and hasn't come back.

I don't print with photo black anymore.  The bronzing I saw on the premium
lustre paper was very annoying.

>
> OTOH, tech support is great. They need to update their manual though,
> adding tricks like how to REALLY set up a firewire printer in Win2000.
> What is stated now on website is incorrect.

Yes, I had problems with both USB and Firewire initially.  I was following
their instructions.  Another customer of theirs saw my post and helped me
get it installed properly.  Their tech support has been really helpful
though for other issues I had.  They even sent me the unfinished section on
the 2200 from the new manual.  Although, they claimed the new manual would
be done in about a week and they'd send it to me.  That was Dec. 5 and I
haven't heard from them.

> John at colorbyte told me after the first purchase, no maintainance
> agreements for the 2200 could be bought, even for another $500. 7600
> is another story. Seems odd though- you'd think they wouldn't mind
> taking our money...maybe I heard it wrong.

Yes, that does seem odd.  Jane was the one that told me about the
maintenance at $495 a year.  I hope they're not going to make us pay another
$500 once they finish rewriting the software.

> John at Colorbyte told me even after 90 days runs out, I could always
> send in a target to get a new paper profiled. No time limit on this
> service- and it is planned to be free.

That's good to know.  Again, I got a slightly different story from Jane.
John Pannozzo is the president though, so his answers are probably more
accurate.  In fact, Daniel in tech support told me, "Technically, yes, the
support contracts are per printer.  I don't set the prices, but the man to
talk to (or email) here is John Pannozzo about pricing issues
(johnp@...)."

> Well I learn fast, being one of those that actually WILL read a 600
> page manual (no IP5 manual is not that long<g>) and snarf it down. I
> would phrase it as "too many features built in". You can just bypass a
> lot of stuff. I was up and running in two days, not counting firewire
> problems. I was surprised to find that the most difficult part of the
> interface was determining where to place image in the printing field
> displayed, as it automatically adds borders to edge (left and right
> edge 1/8 inch, top edge 3/16 inch for letter sized). So There's some
> fractional math to go through.

Yes, the assymetrical borders threw me initially as well.  The biggest
problems I had were:
1. USB and Firewire installation.  -- I was following the instructions and
they didn't work.
2. Using a gray profile with the wrong inkset selected.  -- The
documentation made no mention of inksets for the 2200, and by using the
wrong one, my step wedges were coming out red!
3. When you want to sheet feed paper, you have to check the box which wasn't
on by default or you get out of paper errors.  The Epson driver just assumed
you were sheet feeding unless you told it you weren't.
4. Using a color correction tool in IP and having it switch silently to DEMO
mode.

> The most important part of IP5 is getting the color management
> settings right.

I agree.  I followed their documentation closely on this, but unless you use
an inkset compatible with the profile you've selected, you get weird results
like red ink where it should be paper white.  One email from colorbyte with
an explanation of their ink settings and their purpose was all it took to
clarify this.

> And expect to find strange bugs here and there.I tried a step and
> repeat, couldn't get image dupes to show up on monitor, so I just
> printed- and it printed "white" no ink) where  stepped images "were".
> I need to read that part of manual again.

I never got step and repeat to work either.  I figured it was another one of
those features that was not supported in the desktop version.  On second
though though, if that were the case, it would work, but would stamp DEMO on
the prints.  Have you talked to their tech support on this yet?  I also
haven't tried using templates or AutoPrint yet, so I have no idea what
surprises await me there.

> Hear hear. I think $300 might be reasonable. OR, extend the warranty
> out to 1 year. Oh well, it IS a good product.

I agree.  It is a good product that could be better, and it's priced wrong.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Fors [mailto:tom@...] 
> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions
> ...
> metamerism.  If there were septone gray inks available for 
> the 2200, or even some kind of color/gray hybrid ink set, I 
> think the 2200 would make the ultimate B&W desktop machine.  
> ...

That's a good idea! Having a total of 7 ink positions - 1 black + 3
grays (75%, 50%, 25%) + 3 colours (C, M, Y) - this printer seems like a
perfect candidate for a "full ink hybrid bw+colour" system.

Regards,
Loris.

I have a couple or 3 questions for you Imageprint 5 Desktop version
owners. Like you, I am put off by the ridiculous pricing strategy being
employed for desktop printers. I'm deciding on upgrading my printing
system with either a 2200 or 2 1280's. To date, I have exclusively used
3rd party inks and CIS's. Fiddling with the tiny and expensive 2200
carts would only be tolerated if there was a clear and present
improvement in print quality. I'm wondering if using IP with 2 1280's,
one quad and one Gen4 or 5, is a viable option. I think to have to pay
$375 to add a duplicate of the same printer model just with different
inks is outrageous. Does IP5 just key into the model and port of the
registered printer, or does it get some serial number info from the
printer itself? IOW, I would put up with swapping the 2 printers into
the same USB port (having only 1 connected at a time) to avoid what
amounts to extortion by Colorbyte. Do you think that would work?
(Surely, that doesn't violate the license. What if a printer died and
you had to replace it?)

I realize Colorbyte has said that they would not support 3rd party color
inks. But, if you bought IP5 and sent them a 1280 color target printed
with Gen4, they'd have to profile it for you, right?

Second, I read the find print on Colobyte's site which stated that Auto
print, print tiling, and color correction is disabled on the desktop
version of IP. The first two features are clearly explained and I could
do without them. But it's unclear just exactly what is meant by disabled
color correction. That sounds ominous. I would certainly want
clarification of exactly what limitation that imposes because that could
be a deal-killer. Can y'all elaborate on what is meant by that on the
web page?

Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: jim hayes <jimhayes@...> [mailto:jimhayes@...] 
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:11 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Fors" 
<tom@f...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jharvey@i...>
> > OK, Some of you have had experience with the Colorbyte software
RIP.
> > At this point, what do you think its value is for B&W printing
with
> > the New Epson color Inks as well as the Inks available through
MIS,
> > Jon Cone, Etc..Is it Definately worth the money?
> 
> I've been happy with ImagePrint (IP) for my 2200 simply because it's
given
> me neutral B&W prints with no noticeable metamerism.  But the prints
don't
> compare to piezography.  The 2200 through IP looks good, but there
are more
> noticeable dots in the highlights than what you can do with a
quadtone ink
> set.


Well, okay maybe, but what magnification are you looking at them with? 
Just eyeballing Paul's enhanced step wedge, the 5% to 0%k look great 
with my 2200 and IP5...

I just compared 5%k  IP5 on photorag with 5%k  MIS VM 1440 on Legion 
Photomat (sorry, the only wedges I have at the ready at the moment), 
and with an 8x loupe there definitely are dots apparent on both, the 
VM dots being a little rougher. The dots on the IP5 photorag tend to 
blend into the the little texture that paper has. FWIW. Photomat is 
smoother though...


My prioity #1 is: get something, anything, that works without killing 
printer, turning green, etc. The old Piezo inks broke down on me, and 
messed up my 1160. So I'm gunshy of Piezo, perhaps now unfairly with 
the PT inks. To be fair, I haven't tried the PT inks, and MIS VM inks 
have given me all kinds of clogging grief in my dry climate. I am 
currently investigating an intermitant banding problem with the 2200, 
but I'm finding that it doesn't show up very often- and Colorbyte 
folks say I probably have a defective printer. It doesn't clog hardly 
at all except for that one day when I ran about 20 prints. MIS VM inks 
in my 1280 clogged every 12 hours-1 1/2 days by comparison.

Comparing  prints w/MIS VM 2880dpi curves ( obtained privately from 
Paul) with IP5 output, well, IP5 just blows it away. Maybe the 
standard finished 1440 dpi curves would work better. There is greater 
detail and at the same time more even transistions across tones. Also, 
there are even steps across the step wedge, no color casts, etc. Only 
thing is from about 96%k to 100%k values are a wee bit compressed. 
Using Eclipse paper I currently have a mottling problem at 100%k which 
I'm working on now with colorbyte. VM inkset has the same issue which 
can be corrected by tweaking curves. Photorag is better.

> 
> What I'm not happy about is the price.  For desktop printers it's
$500 for a
> single printer.

Agreed. This is a killer.



  To add another desktop, I believe they quoted me an
> additional $375.  That gets you 90 days of support and upgrades from
them.


Yes the 90 days bother me greatly, esp since they're not done 
re-writing the software! For example, they don't tell you but you 
can't yet print MAT papers at 2880....this capability will be added 
very shortly they say. Photo k papers are supported 2880 now.

OTOH, tech support is great. They need to update their manual though, 
adding tricks like how to REALLY set up a firewire printer in Win2000. 
What is stated now on website is incorrect.

> It's an additional $500 every year after for support and upgrades, 
and I
> believe the maintenance price is per printer as well!

John at colorbyte told me after the first purchase, no maintainance 
agreements for the 2200 could be bought, even for another $500. 7600 
is another story. Seems odd though- you'd think they wouldn't mind 
taking our money...maybe I heard it wrong.

  And, you have 
to stay
> current with your maintenance contract to take advantage of their 
paper
> profiling service.


John at Colorbyte told me even after 90 days runs out, I could always 
send in a target to get a new paper profiled. No time limit on this 
service- and it is planned to be free.

> 
> I think IP would probably perform very well with quadtone inks.  In 
fact, if
> money grew on trees, I'd buy an additional IP license for a 1280 and 
use it
> with the MIS FS or VM inks.

If I lived in Florida instead of 5000 feet above sea level and 20-40% 
humidity I'd consider it...


  But, I'm not going to put any more 
money into
> this since this is just my hobby.  It's not my profession.


Sort of my situation, though I continually show in a co-op gallery.

> 
> If you can hold off until March, Jon Cone is going to announce new 
software
> for his Piezotone inks at PMA.  I'm curious to see if this will be a 
custom
> version of IP for use with his inks only.  I know he thinks highly 
of the
> software.



> 
> If you've never used IP before, be prepared for a sharp learning 
curve.
> There are many aspects of the user interface that are non-intuitive,


Well I learn fast, being one of those that actually WILL read a 600 
page manual (no IP5 manual is not that long<g>) and snarf it down. I 
would phrase it as "too many features built in". You can just bypass a 
lot of stuff. I was up and running in two days, not counting firewire 
problems. I was surprised to find that the most difficult part of the 
interface was determining where to place image in the printing field 
displayed, as it automatically adds borders to edge (left and right 
edge 1/8 inch, top edge 3/16 inch for letter sized). So There's some 
fractional math to go through.

The most important part of IP5 is getting the color management 
settings right.

 
and
> they haven't updated their documentation to include the 2200 yet 
which
> caused me a lot of grief immediately after I installed it.

Yes, I hear you there. Two sentences would have made clear how to set 
up 2200 with firewire...

  I don't 
know if
> it's only the 2200 that was left out or if there are other printers 
not
> mentioned in the documentation.  Also, with the desktop "version", 
don't try
> to use any of the color correction tools even though they are active 
and
> appear to work.  It will -- without informing you -- switch into 
"demo mode"
> and you'll only know this once you print and see the word DEMO 
stamped
> across your images.

And expect to find strange bugs here and there.I tried a step and 
repeat, couldn't get image dupes to show up on monitor, so I just 
printed- and it printed "white" no ink) where  stepped images "were". 
I need to read that part of manual again.

> 
> I wish I could say it is definitely worth the money, but I can't.  I 
feel
> like I just paid 1st class prices for a coach seat, and I'm locked 
into that
> price if I want to book a return flight.  I suspect they're 
alienating a lot
> of potential users off the bat with their pricing and maintenance 
policy.

Hear hear. I think $300 might be reasonable. OR, extend the warranty 
out to 1 year. Oh well, it IS a good product.

> 
> I recommend you get the demo version and try it for yourself before 
you buy.

Good idea.

> Call them on the phone to order it though.  I've had problems 
getting email
> through to their tech support in the past, so I recommend dealing 
with them
> over the phone.
>

I've had luck with e-mail too. When you phone (tech support), you have 
to leave a number for a call back. So have your cell phone on to 
intercept the return call when it comes...<g> The sales number (and 
the number on site) is different, and 50% of time I have found a real 
human on the other side of the line.
 
> I think if ColorByte improved the user interface and brought the 
pricing
> back down to earth, they'd have a fantastic product and would make 
more
> money because more people would buy it.

Agreed. I'd add that as is, I am satisfied with it's performance. I 
just wish Santa had bought it for me<g>.
Jim H.

> 
> --Tom


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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd O'Daniel" 
<lodaniel@b...> wrote:
> I have a couple or 3 questions for you Imageprint 5 Desktop version
> owners. Like you, I am put off by the ridiculous pricing strategy 
being
> employed for desktop printers. I'm deciding on upgrading my printing
> system with either a 2200 or 2 1280's. To date, I have exclusively 
used
> 3rd party inks and CIS's. Fiddling with the tiny and expensive 2200
> carts would only be tolerated if there was a clear and present
> improvement in print quality.

Remember my reason is reliability- 3rd party inks clog up my 1280 and 
before that 1160's  terribly. I DO notice a quality improvement over 
MIS VM, but I must again stress that I was using experimental VM 
curves and printing at 2880 dpi where variable dot size is not used. 

 <snip>

> I realize Colorbyte has said that they would not support 3rd party 
color
> inks. But, if you bought IP5 and sent them a 1280 color target 
printed
> with Gen4, they'd have to profile it for you, right?


I just looked over the long list of profiles. I found currently:

1270 COLOR profiles for Archival mat, gloss,luster,melinex.

1280 MIS-FS profiles for BC-Satine, Museo, Orwell, Radient White, 
S.E., S.V.

1280 Piezo profiles for German Etching and Photorag. It's not stated 
whether these are color or greyscale.

There's also a bunch of profiles that just have Cone's name for the 
paper on them (i.e. Well's River, Orwell again) without further 
delination and I don't know what they go with unless it's for the new 
Piezo packaged with IP5.


Other than that, I don't know if they would profile for you or not.
These may be old profiles or new, I just don't know.

> 
> Second, I read the find print on Colobyte's site which stated that 
Auto
> print, print tiling, and color correction is disabled on the desktop
> version of IP. The first two features are clearly explained and I 
could
> do without them. But it's unclear just exactly what is meant by 
disabled
> color correction.

You would get "demo" printed across the image- not on monitor. This 
only happened once to me so I haven't checked it out completely, I've 
gotten other strange funnies but they are livable. One comment is that 
I CAN get the ink reduction section of "color correction" to work, 
which is proving to be important with my ink loading problem on 
Eclipse.
Jim H.



 That sounds ominous. I would certainly want
> clarification of exactly what limitation that imposes because that 
could
> be a deal-killer. Can y'all elaborate on what is meant by that on 
the

> web page?
> 
> Lloyd
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...>


> Fiddling with the tiny and expensive 2200
> carts would only be tolerated if there was a clear and present
> improvement in print quality.

For B&W, I think quad inks will still beat the 2200/IP.

> I'm wondering if using IP with 2 1280's,
> one quad and one Gen4 or 5, is a viable option. I think to have to pay
> $375 to add a duplicate of the same printer model just with different
> inks is outrageous.

I was mistaken.  The price for additional desktop printers is $200.
Although, I did get a reply from John at Colorbyte regarding pricing.  He
said they realize desktop printers need to be supported at a reasonable
price and that they're working on that now.

> Does IP5 just key into the model and port of the
> registered printer, or does it get some serial number info from the
> printer itself? IOW, I would put up with swapping the 2 printers into
> the same USB port (having only 1 connected at a time) to avoid what
> amounts to extortion by Colorbyte. Do you think that would work?
> (Surely, that doesn't violate the license. What if a printer died and
> you had to replace it?)

I can't see why swapping identical printers out on the same port wouldn't
work, but I can't say for certain.  When you purchase the software you get a
USB dongle and an encryption code.  You have to use their install program to
setup a printer/port combination with your encryption code.  Unless it
obtains some unique ID from your printer (which I doubt), I can't see how
swapping identical printers on the same port wouldn't work.  You can
uninstall and reinstall the printer/port whenever you want -- which I did
several times while I was trying to get my 2200 working, so if a printer
dies, you're covered.  I'm pretty sure that the encryption code you get is
only good for a particular printer model though.  My understanding is if you
add a second printer, they give you another encryption code for you to
install it.

> I realize Colorbyte has said that they would not support 3rd party color
> inks. But, if you bought IP5 and sent them a 1280 color target printed
> with Gen4, they'd have to profile it for you, right?

I don't know that they would.  My impression was the profiling service was
only for papers that they hadn't profiled yet.  Daniel in tech support did
tell me that you can generate your own color profiles and use them with IP.
Their color profiles appear to be standard icc files, but their gray
profiles are not.

> Second, I read the find print on Colobyte's site which stated that Auto
> print, print tiling, and color correction is disabled on the desktop
> version of IP. The first two features are clearly explained and I could
> do without them. But it's unclear just exactly what is meant by disabled
> color correction. That sounds ominous. I would certainly want
> clarification of exactly what limitation that imposes because that could
> be a deal-killer. Can y'all elaborate on what is meant by that on the
> web page?

Color correction refers to the tools they provide within IP such as
tone/cast, histogram adjustment, and overall color adjustments that you can
(can't) make to your images.  An alternative is to make your color
adjustments in photoshop before you go to IP.  You can still use the various
profiles that are tuned to daylight, tungsten, or flourescent when you
print, and if you are using the 2200, the tint picker is still available
when printing B&W prints.

Page tiling allows you to print a large image across multiple pages.  An
alternative is to slice your image in photoshop and print each slice
individually.

Package printing is another name for templates.  According to their
documentation, "Using templates, you can create professional packages that
mix wallet sized images, 4x5s, 8x10s, or any custom size you specify."  An
alternative on the PC is to use Qimage Pro for $40.

Auto Print is a tool that allows you to create a "hot folder" that anyone on
a network can drop images into and they will automatically print according
to templates that you specify.

--Tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Fors" 
<tom@f...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@b...>
> 
> 
> > Fiddling with the tiny and expensive 2200
> > carts would only be tolerated if there was a clear and present
> > improvement in print quality.
> 
> For B&W, I think quad inks will still beat the 2200/IP.

I can't really give it a fair comparison since I was using 
non-standard MIS VM curves at 2880, and since I don't have any "good" 
non-green old piezo prints left hanging around.
But in one respect it beats the quads hands down, at least so far: 
reliability; less  (probably not zero)down time due to bad ink, clogs, 
etc- important in my dry climate at alititude.

<snip>

> 
> I was mistaken.  The price for additional desktop printers is $200.
> Although, I did get a reply from John at Colorbyte regarding 
pricing.  He
> said they realize desktop printers need to be supported at a 
reasonable
> price and that they're working on that now.


Can you tell more about this at this point? I suppose they won't give 
me a rebate since I already bought it, but will they extend tech 
support or something other?
<snip>

> > I realize Colorbyte has said that they would not support 3rd party 
color
> > inks. But, if you bought IP5 and sent them a 1280 color target 
printed
> > with Gen4, they'd have to profile it for you, right?
> 
> I don't know that they would.  My impression was the profiling 
service was
> only for papers that they hadn't profiled yet.


After a paper was profiled for a particular printer/ink/dpi/%ink 
reduction (optional), why would you reprofile it exactly with same 
parameters? Perhaps I misunderstand your answer...

There are many, many examples of paper that have been profiled more 
than once for different printers say. For example Eclipse paper was 
profiled for the 7600 but not the 2200. I have been working with 
Colorbyte to fix mottling at 100%k in the new 2200 Eclipse curves I 
got from them last week by sending them targets. I think they will 
then generate a 95%k reduction curve in the next two weeks, so Eclipse 
on the 2200 will actually have two profiles for the 2200.

  Daniel in tech 
support did
> tell me that you can generate your own color profiles and use them 
with IP.
> Their color profiles appear to be standard icc files, but their gray
> profiles are not.

If you open a color image in Imageprint while a "grey" profile is 
selected in "color corection" menu, it views as greyscale! You can 
then choose a color profile and all will be well. The tint picker goes 
inactive with a color profile selected.There does seem to be a 
different reaction between the color and grey profiles, yet they have 
the same file extensions. 

> 
> > Second, I read the find print on Colobyte's site which stated that 
Auto
> > print, print tiling, and color correction is disabled on the 
desktop
> > version of IP. The first two features are clearly explained and I 
could
> > do without them. But it's unclear just exactly what is meant by 
disabled
> > color correction. That sounds ominous. I would certainly want
> > clarification of exactly what limitation that imposes because that 
could
> > be a deal-killer. Can y'all elaborate on what is meant by that on 
the
> > web page?
> 
> Color correction refers to the tools they provide within IP such as
> tone/cast, histogram adjustment, and overall color adjustments that 
you can
> (can't) make to your images.  An alternative is to make your color
> adjustments in photoshop before you go to IP.

Colorbyte says it's a convienent way to make corrections to the image 
just prior to printing and not to be permanent correction to the file. 
 Actually, color correction shouldn't be needed or used if you did 
your work right in pshop. You'd have to redo the color correction in 
IP5 everytime you printed it (you can save the correction settings 
though). If you have to keep correcting for say a cyan tint to all 
your photos coming out of pshop- I'd say you have a problem elsewhere.

Most of the color correction menu is designed to alter color cast in 
COLOR images only. The controls for a change are very intuitive, 
visually showing you if you're adding more CMY or RGB, etc. Greyscale 
only has one option in this menu: ink reduction which I already said 
is not disabled for the 2200.

The best way to find out what the color correction tabs look like and 
do is do the online tour and skip to the color correcting section. 
BTW, "Color correction" and "Color management" are very diferent 
Colorbyte terms: management makes your grey/color prints come out 
WYSIWYG and with even tonal gradation/ no unwanted greyscale casts, 
etc and is definitly enabled. Correction is merely tweaking your color 
"problem" file because it's too cyan, or whatever.

 
 <snip>

> Auto Print is a tool that allows you to create a "hot folder" that 
anyone on
> a network can drop images into and they will automatically print 
according
> to templates that you specify.

On a network it might be a good thing, but I don't want a TSR on my 
computer checking for new prints in the folder every 30 seconds. Since 
you can have a folder for each setting (i.e. one for photorag letter 
at 1440, another for luster 13x19 at 2880 as an extreme example) who 
would be in charge of loading the correct paper/k ink for each job 
that shot through the network?<g>
Jim H.

> 
> --Tom

----- Original Message -----

From: <jimhayes@...>

> >
> > I was mistaken.  The price for additional desktop printers is $200.
> > Although, I did get a reply from John at Colorbyte regarding
> > pricing.  He said they realize desktop printers need to be supported
> > at a reasonable price and that they're working on that now.
> >
>
> Can you tell more about this at this point? I suppose they won't give
> me a rebate since I already bought it, but will they extend tech
> support or something other?
> <snip>
>

Unfortunately, that's all I know.
John (johnp@...) did seem very receptive to criticism
about their pricing strategy though.

> After a paper was profiled for a particular printer/ink/dpi/%ink
> reduction (optional), why would you reprofile it exactly with same
> parameters? Perhaps I misunderstand your answer...

I thought the original question was about printing targets with 3rd party
color inks and passing it off to Colorbyte as if they were OEM inks just to
get them to profile it.  In that case, they might have a problem if their
policy is to not support 3rd party color inks and it looks like you're
duplicating a printer/ink/dpi combo that already exists.

--Tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Fors" 
<tom@f...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jimhayes@f...>
> 
> > >
> > > I was mistaken.  The price for additional desktop printers is 
$200.
> > > Although, I did get a reply from John at Colorbyte regarding
> > > pricing.  He said they realize desktop printers need to be 
supported
> > > at a reasonable price and that they're working on that now.
> > >
> >
> > Can you tell more about this at this point? I suppose they won't 
give
> > me a rebate since I already bought it, but will they extend tech
> > support or something other?
> > <snip>
> >
> 
> Unfortunately, that's all I know.
> John (johnp@c...) did seem very receptive to criticism
> about their pricing strategy though.
>

Thank you. They really should extend my tech support beyond 90 days 
for $500. I have been bugging them a lot lately, but I suspect that I 
will only need it occasionally after my Eclipse woes are solved...
 
> > After a paper was profiled for a particular printer/ink/dpi/%ink
> > reduction (optional), why would you reprofile it exactly with same
> > parameters? Perhaps I misunderstand your answer...
> 
> I thought the original question was about printing targets with 3rd 
party
> color inks and passing it off to Colorbyte as if they were OEM inks 
just to
> get them to profile it.  In that case, they might have a problem if 
their
> policy is to not support 3rd party color inks and it looks like 
you're
> duplicating a printer/ink/dpi combo that already exists.

Oh, okay. I wasn't thinking along that line, since in the drop down 
box for paper profiles, some MIS-FS profiles for 1280 already exist. 
So unless these are obsolete profiles, at least this flavor of 3rd 
party IS supported. A few Piezo varients show up too, but whether old 
piezo or PT or what I don't know.

Hypothetically, if you mislabeled the target when you sent it in with 
the wrong ink, printer, dpi, etc, you would be doing a disservice to 
others, as the profile would be given a name and then given out to 
others as bonafide.<g>
Jim H.

> 
> --Tom

Tom and Jim,

For the record, I wasn't suggesting "passing off" a target printed with
Generations as being OEM ink. Jim's right...that would be a disservice
to others. My thinking is that if I pay $500 for $100 software and
"free" profiling is part of the justification for that, then I damn well
ought to be able to get profiles made with both the inks and papers of
my choosing! IOW, I'd tell them up front it's Gen. I don't see anywhere
on their website that the profiling service is limited to OEM ink.
Refusal to do so after the fact would result in complaint to the
consumer protection authorities.

I'm glad to read that Colorbyte's President hasn't completely lost touch
with reality and plans to update his pricing strategies for the small
printers. I believe he should rethink the ban on 3rd party color ink
sets as well. They do claim to support the 1200 series of printers. Who
in their right mind would buy a $500 RIP for a printer that is only
useable with inks that fade in a year? I also don't see that expense for
quads only. There are surely some of you out there that are so into B&W
that you might do that, but not me. There are good, less expensive
alternatives to IP for quads.

The more I read about the beta-software type problems you are having
with the 2200 version of IP, my feet are getting colder and colder. If
the software is still a work-in-progress, then I would want a guarantee
of free upgrades before I would buy. Heck, from what I've read
lately...the 2200 itself doesn't seem very reliable. Perhaps now is not
the time to upgrade after all.

Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Fors [mailto:tom@...] 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 4:00 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions



I thought the original question was about printing targets with 3rd
party color inks and passing it off to Colorbyte as if they were OEM
inks just to get them to profile it.  In that case, they might have a
problem if their policy is to not support 3rd party color inks and it
looks like you're duplicating a printer/ink/dpi combo that already
exists.

--Tom



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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Fors" 
<tom@f...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jimhayes@f...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions
> 
> 
> >
> > Well, okay maybe, but what magnification are you looking at them 
with?
> > Just eyeballing Paul's enhanced step wedge, the 5% to 0%k look 
great
> > with my 2200 and IP5...
> 
> I'm looking at it with no additional magnification.  Granted though, 
my nose
> is about 12 inches from the print.  When printing Paul's step wedge 
with the
> Epson driver, I can see no dots in the highlights, but even using 
the gray
> balancer, I get noticable metamerism for B&W prints.  With IP, even 
though I
> notice more dots in the highlights, I didn't mean to imply it was a
> show-stopper.  It is very good, and I'm very happy with the neutral 
prints
> that exhibit no noticeable metamerism.

Interesting, I didn't try comparing the 2200 Epson driver output to 
IP5... I compared MIS VM on 1280 done at 1440 dpi on Legion Photomat 
with 2200/IP5 1440 Photorag. Just the differing papers could of thrown 
it off. Nonetheless, no dots were visible without a loupe. My eyes 
might need new glasses tho<g>

Yes, IP5 seems to clear up those funny casts- unless you choose them 
in the tint picker, and then they're smooth across the step wedge. I 
haven't tried the grey balancer, don't have it. 

  If there were septone gray 
inks
> available for the 2200, or even some kind of color/gray hybrid ink 
set, I
> think the 2200 would make the ultimate B&W desktop machine.


Agreed. My main prioity as I have stated before is to be conservative 
and pick a system that has the least compatibility issues with the 
printer (i.e. clogging, ink breakdown, etc). From this viewpoint I 
might be willing to sacrifice some print quality for proven 
reliability. And I can tell Epson I AM using their inks when it goes 
south...

  I asked
> colorbyte about support for 3rd party inks and the answer I got from 
Daniel
> in tech support was:
> 
> # We do plan to keep updating our support for the quadtones and MIS,
> although
> # its tough to say positively which ones and when.  As they come 
out, we
> # usually fit them into our schedule as soon as possible.
> 
> > I am currently investigating an intermitant banding problem with 
the
> > 2200, but I'm finding that it doesn't show up very often- and
> > Colorbyte folks say I probably have a defective printer.
> 
> That's interesting.  There was only once I noticed banding with my 
2200 and
> that was immediately after I switched from matte black to photo 
black.
> After a second print, it went away and hasn't come back.

I can't get it to come back either. Frustrating- when I want it to 
come back so I can study it, it won't. It may have something to do 
with how long I let printer sit idle.

> 
> I don't print with photo black anymore.  The bronzing I saw on the 
premium
> lustre paper was very annoying.
> 
> >
> > OTOH, tech support is great. They need to update their manual 
though,
> > adding tricks like how to REALLY set up a firewire printer in 
Win2000.
> > What is stated now on website is incorrect.
> 
> Yes, I had problems with both USB and Firewire initially.  I was 
following
> their instructions.  Another customer of theirs saw my post and 
helped me
> get it installed properly.  Their tech support has been really 
helpful
> though for other issues I had.  They even sent me the unfinished 
section on
> the 2200 from the new manual.  Although, they claimed the new manual 
would
> be done in about a week and they'd send it to me.  That was Dec. 5 
and I
> haven't heard from them.

I'ld like to get that. I was also told that the online tutorial would 
be put on CD, which would be excellent. I'm still waiting for the 2880 
dpi for mat papers to come out- last I heard it wasn't ready yet.

> 
> > John at colorbyte told me after the first purchase, no 
maintainance
> > agreements for the 2200 could be bought, even for another $500. 
7600
> > is another story. Seems odd though- you'd think they wouldn't mind
> > taking our money...maybe I heard it wrong.
> 
> Yes, that does seem odd.  Jane was the one that told me about the
> maintenance at $495 a year.  I hope they're not going to make us pay 
another
> $500 once they finish rewriting the software.

<groan>

> 
> > John at Colorbyte told me even after 90 days runs out, I could 
always
> > send in a target to get a new paper profiled. No time limit on 
this
> > service- and it is planned to be free.
> 
> That's good to know.  Again, I got a slightly different story from 
Jane.
> John Pannozzo is the president though, so his answers are probably 
more
> accurate.

It did seem clear to me. Check with John again for accuracy, I've 
heard things wrong before<g>.

  In fact, Daniel in tech support told me, "Technically, 
yes, the
> support contracts are per printer.  I don't set the prices, but the 
man to
> talk to (or email) here is John Pannozzo about pricing issues
> (johnp@c...)."
> 
> > Well I learn fast, being one of those that actually WILL read a 
600
> > page manual (no IP5 manual is not that long<g>) and snarf it down. 
I
> > would phrase it as "too many features built in". You can just 
bypass a
> > lot of stuff. I was up and running in two days, not counting 
firewire
> > problems. I was surprised to find that the most difficult part of 
the
> > interface was determining where to place image in the printing 
field
> > displayed, as it automatically adds borders to edge (left and 
right
> > edge 1/8 inch, top edge 3/16 inch for letter sized). So There's 
some
> > fractional math to go through.
> 
> Yes, the assymetrical borders threw me initially as well.

And it is possible to specify a grid that is in 1/16 inch increments 
even though it gives you an error dialogue- just click ok and it sets 
it up. Now snapping to a 1/16 inch grid on even a 22 inch monitor is 
another matter...


  The 
biggest
> problems I had were:
> 1. USB and Firewire installation.  -- I was following the 
instructions and
> they didn't work.
> 2. Using a gray profile with the wrong inkset selected.  -- The
> documentation made no mention of inksets for the 2200, and by using 
the
> wrong one, my step wedges were coming out red!


You mean in the printer setup dialogue where you choose grey mat 
instead of cmy pig? Tricky<g>. Fortunately I didn't have to waste ink 
on this because tech support walked me through this when they helped 
me set up firewire connection.

> 3. When you want to sheet feed paper, you have to check the box 
which wasn't
> on by default or you get out of paper errors.

Yes, walked through this as well<g>. They need to update that 
manual...

  The Epson driver just 
assumed
> you were sheet feeding unless you told it you weren't.
> 4. Using a color correction tool in IP and having it switch silently 
to DEMO
> mode.


> 
> > The most important part of IP5 is getting the color management
> > settings right.
> 
> I agree.  I followed their documentation closely on this, but unless 
you use
> an inkset compatible with the profile you've selected, you get weird 
results
> like red ink where it should be paper white.  One email from 
colorbyte with
> an explanation of their ink settings and their purpose was all it 
took to
> clarify this.

It gets easy once you get the hang of it. My toughie here was deciding 
whether to use the embedded profile (I have some odd legacy ones) or 
discard (which then defaults to the gamma 2.2 I chose in Imageprint as 
my greyscale space). Most often  I find dropping the profile is 
better; having a more or less wysiwyg in Imageprint helps with this.

> 
> > And expect to find strange bugs here and there.I tried a step and
> > repeat, couldn't get image dupes to show up on monitor, so I just
> > printed- and it printed "white" no ink) where  stepped images 
"were".
> > I need to read that part of manual again.
> 
> I never got step and repeat to work either.  I figured it was 
another one of
> those features that was not supported in the desktop version.  On 
second
> though though, if that were the case, it would work, but would stamp 
DEMO on
> the prints.  Have you talked to their tech support on this yet?  I 
also
> haven't tried using templates or AutoPrint yet, so I have no idea 
what
> surprises await me there.

No, I should talk to them. My big thing is templates because I think I 
could do custom ones that would place one image correctly on page, 
avoiding math and counting gridlines.
Jim H.

> 
> > Hear hear. I think $300 might be reasonable. OR, extend the 
warranty
> > out to 1 year. Oh well, it IS a good product.
> 
> I agree.  It is a good product that could be better, and it's priced 
wrong.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd O'Daniel" 
<lodaniel@b...> wrote:
> Tom and Jim,
> 
> For the record, I wasn't suggesting "passing off" a target printed 
with
> Generations as being OEM ink. Jim's right...that would be a 
disservice
> to others.

NO no...PLEASE don't think I meant you would do it. Apologies if you 
felt that way. I used the word "hypothetically" in the sense that 
"generically, this is logically what would result if people did this". 
A sort of layman philosopical speculation, if you will.<g> It 
stresses more in my mind the fact that when I send in a profile, I 
need to make sure that I haven't printed on the wrong side, printed at 
the wrong dpi, used unspecified "ink reduction", done a nozzle check 
beforehand, set color management options or print setup options 
wrongly, you get the idea. 



 My thinking is that if I pay $500 for $100 software and
> "free" profiling is part of the justification for that, then I damn 
well
> ought to be able to get profiles made with both the inks and papers 
of
> my choosing!

Agreed. Personally, I think I might pay as much as $300 (tops) 
realistically for what I got. But others will feel differently. Moot 
point though, as I seem to have paid $500<g>


 IOW, I'd tell them up front it's Gen. I don't see 
anywhere
> on their website that the profiling service is limited to OEM ink.

No it's not. There are a few  profiles for MIS-FS for 1280, though of 
course I haven't used them. Also there are some profiles that appear 
to be linked to Piezo papers and ink.

> Refusal to do so after the fact would result in complaint to the
> consumer protection authorities.


John seemed easy going to me on the specific subject of running free 
profiles, even after 90 support period ends. As always check with him 
to be sure.

> 
> I'm glad to read that Colorbyte's President hasn't completely lost 
touch
> with reality and plans to update his pricing strategies for the 
small
> printers. I believe he should rethink the ban on 3rd party color ink
> sets as well.

HHmmmm...I don't recall seeing any COLOR profiles for 3rd party ink 
just off the top of my head. I DID see some for the 1270 OEM inkset 
(of course a dye inkset). I think there was some profiles for the 
2000P, which would be OEM pigment. And of course there are all the 
2200  OEM color profiles. No Generations though.


 They do claim to support the 1200 series of printers. 
Who
> in their right mind would buy a $500 RIP for a printer that is only
> useable with inks that fade in a year? I also don't see that expense 
for
> quads only. There are surely some of you out there that are so into 
B&W
> that you might do that, but not me. There are good, less expensive
> alternatives to IP for quads.

Yes, definitely. I have a special situstion that led me down this 
path. I'm sure Piezo and MIS have very good solutions...I have used 
both in the past. Where I live seems to be harsh on 3rd party pig inks 
in the 1160 and 1280, it's hard for me to keep the printers reliably 
printing. So I am trying out the 2200/IP5. It is a high risk thing for 
me to do. I made the descion that for $1200 total I was going to try a 
new approach, minimizing the number of things bought from different 
sources. In this case the ink and printer were "made" for each other, 
I just had to get software that worked as good as I could get it 
because Epson fell down in that department.

I hope it works. IP5 I am pleased with so far even with it's bugs. The 
 2200- only time will tell.

> 
> The more I read about the beta-software type problems you are having
> with the 2200 version of IP, my feet are getting colder and colder.

Good point. But in fairness I should say that the bugs don't get in 
the way of getting fabulous prints. Most of the stuff is minor or can 
be worked around. I don't have to do a lot of bending (tweaking) over 
backwards either- it is a Piezo like solution more than an MIS 
solution. I wish the manual was better at the point I read it, but 
tech support brought me up to speed really fast in compensation. These 
folks I know work really hard to produce a good product and it shows 
in the output. And they are very nice to talk to.
 
If
> the software is still a work-in-progress, then I would want a 
guarantee
> of free upgrades before I would buy.

I worry about this too. 

 Heck, from what I've read
> lately...the 2200 itself doesn't seem very reliable.

Well, perhaps if I went into a little more detail about my particular 
case:

I heard of one poster on the Epson x7x group that had a complete color 
 go out in a nozzle check after four weeks. And Colorbyte folks told 
me that some 2200 can have intermitant banding issues, but I didn't 
get the full story. I can tell you that one day I got three banding 
problems spring up during a period when I printed off about 20-30 8x10 
equivilents. In all cases one cleaning cycle was the most I had to do 
to clear it. This was after leaving printer off for six days. It 
hasn't returned yet.

I get more than my share of clogs, mainly with MIS VM/ 1280, even with 
non CFS/CIS carts. I had to run the printer every 12 hours just to 
keep it clear. Heck, even now with Epson dye inks back in my 1280 it 
needs to be run about every two or three days just to keep good nozzle 
checks. Don't use me as a yardstick, I am an extreme example of 
clogging issues. I can easily leave 2200 off for two or three days it 
seems, though I am still looking at this.


 Perhaps now is 
not
> the time to upgrade after all.


I think my 2200/IP5 decsion is a "cusp" determination. If you need to 
be on the edge, either because you demand the best prints and have 
money to experiment, or like me, you are spending too much money 
running ink through printers and can't leave the studio for more than 
12 hours in the last year so that your 1280 will be happy- then it's 
worth it.

Otherwise use your best judgement and jump in when your own situation 
best dictates- whatever printer/ink/RIP you go with.
Jim H.

> 
> Lloyd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Fors [mailto:tom@f...] 
> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 4:00 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the original question was about printing targets with 3rd
> party color inks and passing it off to Colorbyte as if they were OEM
> inks just to get them to profile it.  In that case, they might have 
a
> problem if their policy is to not support 3rd party color inks and 
it
> looks like you're duplicating a printer/ink/dpi combo that already
> exists.
> 
> --Tom
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this
> same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various

> resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Greetings everyone. I have been following the IP5 discussion.

I use MIS VM with Roark curves on an 1160 with both a
Windows XP Pro and a Mac OS 10.3 machine. I have been very pleased
with this setup. On the Mac I have to do all my printing through
Photoshop running in Classic. I had also been using a 1270/Gen 4
Enhanced combination with a $100 custom curve to do my color. I had
problems printing out of gamut colors (bright yellows, oranges/dark
reds, and dark greens) with this combo. 

I bought the 2200 about a month ago and wasted a lot of time, paper
and ink trying to get a neutral color image using the Epson profiles
and also a profile that I downloaded from the Lepp site. I tried this
on both my Mac and PC with respective Epson drivers. I could not get
the cast out using the sliders either. I consulted Epson support twice
which was a waste of time. I posted my problem and tried several
suggested courses of action none of which worked.

I decided to try IP5. I bought the Windows version. I have been a
happy camper with what I consider excellent output. Both B&W and color
output are dead neutral as far as I can tell. Far fewer colors fall
out of gamut and if they do they do not look out of gamut on the
print. I use EEM and H.Photo Rag with the supplied IP curves. So far I
have had no problems with banding other than I did briefly have a
problem with the last 3/8" printed being lighter or banded looking. I
never could figure out the reason. I reinstalled the software and it
disappeared and I have been getting perfect prints since. 

Getting going was not smooth. I made it without calling IP tech
support through the good will of Tom Fors who shared his experience.
My son, a software engineer, cannot understand why I paid $500 for
such a confusing combination of software and instructions. Well, all I
can say is that it gets the job done. I had a deadline for a show and
John and Jane at Colorbyte got it to me overnight and it ultimately
lives up to its claims.

The software consists of four separate applications (ImagePrint,
ImagePrint Spooler, AutoPrint, and Printer Installer). ImagePrint
itself sends its output to the IP Spooler. I have managed to freeze
the spooler more than once (by trying to open the Epson 2200 monitor
to check ink levels while the spooler was printing). The print job
within the spooler sticks at whatever percentage is done, shoots the
unfinished print out and then won't let you delete the unfinished job
and won't go on to the next job. I had to reinstall the software
(uninstall, delete all files manually, and empty the trash --
uninstall by itself did not get rid of the unfinished job) each time
this happens.

At the first installation of the printer I had the IP Spooler spooling
to the Windows print spooler. After my first reinstall it no longer
did this and I have not been able to get it to work this way again. I
think it has to do with the name you give the printer when you do the
IP printer install. 

The IP Spooler directly controlling the printer works fine. I run the
2200 and the 1160 and a 980 and work in Photoshop/ surf internet/do
e-mail simultaneously without a problem. The three printers are hooked
to individual USB ports, not a hub. 

I downloaded all the new/extra profiles including new ones for EEM. If
you have to reinstall be sure to drag the Color folder out of the main
IP folder before uninstalling and then drag it back in after reinstall
or you will have to download the extra profiles all over again.

The uneven margins threw me too until I figured out what was going on.
I got used to them actually. I now orient my image so that the wider
margin is at the bottom and use this extra space to sign and name and
date the print. I adjust the other margin so the side margins are
more or less even.

I too think that 1160 / MIS VM with the Roark curves produces superior
B&W prints compared to the 2200 (not to mention that MIS VM with a CIS
system is more economical if many prints are made).

Bill

Hello Bill,

> Greetings everyone. I have been following the IP5 discussion.

What a great summation.  It puts it all together and answers many
questions for those of us following along.  Thanks very much.

Regards, 
Clayton

Jim,

Apologies not necessary. I took no offense at your message. If it seemed
that way, I apologize. :-)


Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: jim hayes <jimhayes@...> [mailto:jimhayes@...] 
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd O'Daniel" 
<lodaniel@b...> wrote:
> Tom and Jim,
> 
> For the record, I wasn't suggesting "passing off" a target printed
with
> Generations as being OEM ink. Jim's right...that would be a
disservice
> to others.

NO no...PLEASE don't think I meant you would do it. Apologies if you 
felt that way. I used the word "hypothetically" in the sense that 
"generically, this is logically what would result if people did this". 
A sort of layman philosopical speculation, if you will.<g> It 
stresses more in my mind the fact that when I send in a profile, I 
need to make sure that I haven't printed on the wrong side, printed at 
the wrong dpi, used unspecified "ink reduction", done a nozzle check 
beforehand, set color management options or print setup options 
wrongly, you get the idea. 



 My thinking is that if I pay $500 for $100 software and
> "free" profiling is part of the justification for that, then I damn
well
> ought to be able to get profiles made with both the inks and papers
of
> my choosing!

Agreed. Personally, I think I might pay as much as $300 (tops) 
realistically for what I got. But others will feel differently. Moot 
point though, as I seem to have paid $500<g>


 IOW, I'd tell them up front it's Gen. I don't see 
anywhere
> on their website that the profiling service is limited to OEM ink.

No it's not. There are a few  profiles for MIS-FS for 1280, though of 
course I haven't used them. Also there are some profiles that appear 
to be linked to Piezo papers and ink.

> Refusal to do so after the fact would result in complaint to the
> consumer protection authorities.


John seemed easy going to me on the specific subject of running free 
profiles, even after 90 support period ends. As always check with him 
to be sure.

> 
> I'm glad to read that Colorbyte's President hasn't completely lost
touch
> with reality and plans to update his pricing strategies for the
small
> printers. I believe he should rethink the ban on 3rd party color ink 
> sets as well.

HHmmmm...I don't recall seeing any COLOR profiles for 3rd party ink 
just off the top of my head. I DID see some for the 1270 OEM inkset 
(of course a dye inkset). I think there was some profiles for the 
2000P, which would be OEM pigment. And of course there are all the 
2200  OEM color profiles. No Generations though.


 They do claim to support the 1200 series of printers. 
Who
> in their right mind would buy a $500 RIP for a printer that is only 
> useable with inks that fade in a year? I also don't see that expense
for
> quads only. There are surely some of you out there that are so into
B&W
> that you might do that, but not me. There are good, less expensive 
> alternatives to IP for quads.

Yes, definitely. I have a special situstion that led me down this 
path. I'm sure Piezo and MIS have very good solutions...I have used 
both in the past. Where I live seems to be harsh on 3rd party pig inks 
in the 1160 and 1280, it's hard for me to keep the printers reliably 
printing. So I am trying out the 2200/IP5. It is a high risk thing for 
me to do. I made the descion that for $1200 total I was going to try a 
new approach, minimizing the number of things bought from different 
sources. In this case the ink and printer were "made" for each other, 
I just had to get software that worked as good as I could get it 
because Epson fell down in that department.

I hope it works. IP5 I am pleased with so far even with it's bugs. The 
 2200- only time will tell.

> 
> The more I read about the beta-software type problems you are having 
> with the 2200 version of IP, my feet are getting colder and colder.

Good point. But in fairness I should say that the bugs don't get in 
the way of getting fabulous prints. Most of the stuff is minor or can 
be worked around. I don't have to do a lot of bending (tweaking) over 
backwards either- it is a Piezo like solution more than an MIS 
solution. I wish the manual was better at the point I read it, but 
tech support brought me up to speed really fast in compensation. These 
folks I know work really hard to produce a good product and it shows 
in the output. And they are very nice to talk to.
 
If
> the software is still a work-in-progress, then I would want a
guarantee
> of free upgrades before I would buy.

I worry about this too. 

 Heck, from what I've read
> lately...the 2200 itself doesn't seem very reliable.

Well, perhaps if I went into a little more detail about my particular 
case:

I heard of one poster on the Epson x7x group that had a complete color 
 go out in a nozzle check after four weeks. And Colorbyte folks told 
me that some 2200 can have intermitant banding issues, but I didn't 
get the full story. I can tell you that one day I got three banding 
problems spring up during a period when I printed off about 20-30 8x10 
equivilents. In all cases one cleaning cycle was the most I had to do 
to clear it. This was after leaving printer off for six days. It 
hasn't returned yet.

I get more than my share of clogs, mainly with MIS VM/ 1280, even with 
non CFS/CIS carts. I had to run the printer every 12 hours just to 
keep it clear. Heck, even now with Epson dye inks back in my 1280 it 
needs to be run about every two or three days just to keep good nozzle 
checks. Don't use me as a yardstick, I am an extreme example of 
clogging issues. I can easily leave 2200 off for two or three days it 
seems, though I am still looking at this.


 Perhaps now is 
not
> the time to upgrade after all.


I think my 2200/IP5 decsion is a "cusp" determination. If you need to 
be on the edge, either because you demand the best prints and have 
money to experiment, or like me, you are spending too much money 
running ink through printers and can't leave the studio for more than 
12 hours in the last year so that your 1280 will be happy- then it's 
worth it.

Otherwise use your best judgement and jump in when your own situation 
best dictates- whatever printer/ink/RIP you go with.
Jim H.

> 
> Lloyd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Fors [mailto:tom@f...]
> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 4:00 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the original question was about printing targets with 3rd 
> party color inks and passing it off to Colorbyte as if they were OEM 
> inks just to get them to profile it.  In that case, they might have
a
> problem if their policy is to not support 3rd party color inks and
it
> looks like you're duplicating a printer/ink/dpi combo that already 
> exists.
> 
> --Tom
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this
> same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

----- Original Message ----- 

From: <billstrong50@...>

> My son, a software engineer, cannot understand why I paid $500 for
> such a confusing combination of software and instructions. Well, all I
> can say is that it gets the job done. 

This statement precisely sums up my mixed feelings for ImagePrint.

Well put Bill.

--Tom

I too was interested in profiling Gen4 pig inks for use with 
ImagePrint. I use an Epson 9500 with Gen4 inks and IP4. 
Although I can get good WYSIWYG prints using Photoshop and 
Epson engine, its been a bear trying to get colormatched prints 
from IP4.

Someone at Colorbyte told me that they do not support Gen4 
inks and that making a profile might help, but would probably not 
result in WYSIWYG prints because PROFILING is not the same 
as LINEARIZING an inkset for a paper/printer combo. I do not 
fully understand what this means... I can only guess that a profile 
tweaks colors but linearizing is programming in the software that 
tells the driver how much ink to lay out and in what proportions - 
and this must have a profound effect on how colors appear. 
Maybe someone can explain.

At any rate, Colorbyte did agree to profile some Gen 4 targets I 
printed, and true to their word a week later they emailed me a 
Gen4/EEM/Epson 9500 profile. It does not get me in the ballpark, 
however.

I am thinking of upgrading to a 9600 and IP5 solely for ease of 
color management - and also becuase I can then sell both the 
9500 and MIS 7000 (which is GREAT with IP4). But i do like the 
Gen4 colors and pricing!!!

Daniel Smith

This is one of the big plusses of the Posterprint RIP. First you linearise
the RIP for each inkset, then you can tweak the black laydown, then you
profile for each paper/ink combo. So you get a driver that doesn't compress
tonal values and then optimum black flow and then profiles to much the ink
to the paper. A major difference between this and IP IMO - you never wait
for 'support' for an inkset - you just calibrate and go.

Julian



----- Original Message -----
From: <daniel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions


> I too was interested in profiling Gen4 pig inks for use with
> ImagePrint. I use an Epson 9500 with Gen4 inks and IP4.
> Although I can get good WYSIWYG prints using Photoshop and
> Epson engine, its been a bear trying to get colormatched prints
> from IP4.
>
> Someone at Colorbyte told me that they do not support Gen4
> inks and that making a profile might help, but would probably not
> result in WYSIWYG prints because PROFILING is not the same
> as LINEARIZING an inkset for a paper/printer combo. I do not
> fully understand what this means... I can only guess that a profile
> tweaks colors but linearizing is programming in the software that
> tells the driver how much ink to lay out and in what proportions -
> and this must have a profound effect on how colors appear.
> Maybe someone can explain.
>
> At any rate, Colorbyte did agree to profile some Gen 4 targets I
> printed, and true to their word a week later they emailed me a
> Gen4/EEM/Epson 9500 profile. It does not get me in the ballpark,
> however.
>
> I am thinking of upgrading to a 9600 and IP5 solely for ease of
> color management - and also becuase I can then sell both the
> 9500 and MIS 7000 (which is GREAT with IP4). But i do like the
> Gen4 colors and pricing!!!
>
> Daniel Smith
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions


> This is one of the big plusses of the Posterprint RIP. First you linearise
> the RIP for each inkset, then you can tweak the black laydown, then you
> profile for each paper/ink combo. So you get a driver that doesn't
compress
> tonal values and then optimum black flow and then profiles to much the ink
> to the paper. A major difference between this and IP IMO - you never wait
> for 'support' for an inkset - you just calibrate and go.
>
> Julian

It is a big plus of many RIPs. On the other hand it isn't so easy to make
CMYK printer profiles. "RGB" printer profiles are far easier to make. The
Wasatch SoftRip allows the user the usual linearisation (calibration in
fact) per printer/inkset + inklimitation + setting for the Cc/Mm breakpoint.
On top of that you can build CMYK printer profiles that incorporate the
Black Generation percentage and the kind of BG. You need a good profile
generator then.

With version 4.5 there is a choice added to use the printer as an "RGB"
machine, still with the basic calibration aspects but with an extra,
separate Black Generation setting that allows you to use "RGB" printer
profiles instead.
They actually added that to profile the more complex CcMmYKOG printers. With
their normal CMYK channel profile structure it wasn't easy to get the best
from those machines. Another approach would have been to make multiple
channel profiles and a colourengine that can handle that. Profile creation
software for that kind of colour management will be much more expensive. As
I understand it they are also working on that together with Monaco.

For B&W, good calibration and the use of curves in the driver itself should
be an advantage. The Wasatch SoftRip has the last as well. Still not enough
experience with that however. I have ordered the last upgrade and that
allows me some extra support. I wonder whether they could make a monochrome
linearisation for quad and hexatone inksets. A menu structure that allows
the user to set the quad channels from light to dark and a single greystep
for measuring. The measured results can then be translated in curves for the
individual channels. I guess that for a VM set two greysteps for measuring
would be needed. A CcMmYK printer is  linearised as a CMYK printer so in the
calibration curves you will see the usual breakpoint where c goes to C.
Something similar will then be seen in the single calibration curve for a
quad while the individual channels will have odd curves.

Ernst

Thanks for the info Ernst - the more approaches talked about the better or
the lists get dominated by too few brand names!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions
>
>
> > This is one of the big plusses of the Posterprint RIP. First you
linearise
> > the RIP for each inkset, then you can tweak the black laydown, then you
> > profile for each paper/ink combo. So you get a driver that doesn't
> compress
> > tonal values and then optimum black flow and then profiles to much the
ink
> > to the paper. A major difference between this and IP IMO - you never
wait
> > for 'support' for an inkset - you just calibrate and go.
> >
> > Julian
>
> It is a big plus of many RIPs. On the other hand it isn't so easy to make
> CMYK printer profiles. "RGB" printer profiles are far easier to make. The
> Wasatch SoftRip allows the user the usual linearisation (calibration in
> fact) per printer/inkset + inklimitation + setting for the Cc/Mm
breakpoint.
> On top of that you can build CMYK printer profiles that incorporate the
> Black Generation percentage and the kind of BG. You need a good profile
> generator then.
>
> With version 4.5 there is a choice added to use the printer as an "RGB"
> machine, still with the basic calibration aspects but with an extra,
> separate Black Generation setting that allows you to use "RGB" printer
> profiles instead.
> They actually added that to profile the more complex CcMmYKOG printers.
With
> their normal CMYK channel profile structure it wasn't easy to get the best
> from those machines. Another approach would have been to make multiple
> channel profiles and a colourengine that can handle that. Profile creation
> software for that kind of colour management will be much more expensive.
As
> I understand it they are also working on that together with Monaco.
>
> For B&W, good calibration and the use of curves in the driver itself
should
> be an advantage. The Wasatch SoftRip has the last as well. Still not
enough
> experience with that however. I have ordered the last upgrade and that
> allows me some extra support. I wonder whether they could make a
monochrome
> linearisation for quad and hexatone inksets. A menu structure that allows
> the user to set the quad channels from light to dark and a single greystep
> for measuring. The measured results can then be translated in curves for
the
> individual channels. I guess that for a VM set two greysteps for measuring
> would be needed. A CcMmYK printer is  linearised as a CMYK printer so in
the
> calibration curves you will see the usual breakpoint where c goes to C.
> Something similar will then be seen in the single calibration curve for a
> quad while the individual channels will have odd curves.
>
> Ernst
>
>
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> I too think that 1160 / MIS VM with the Roark curves produces 
superior
> B&W prints compared to the 2200 (not to mention that MIS VM with a 
CIS
> system is more economical if many prints are made).
> 


Hello Bill,  


What about IP5 with  1160 and MIS inks? Is the 1160 supported by IP5? 
If yes, what are the results with MIS inks? Have you tried 
PiezographyBW RIP? 

JM Humbert
Paris, France

On 1/7/03 5:52 AM, "Jean-Marc Humbert <humbertjm@...>"
<humbertjm@...> wrote:

> Is the 1160 supported by IP5?

No, but it is supported by the new Inkjet Control driver.

Robert

Robert,

With IJC if, for example, a variable-tone curve were written for one printer
type -- say a 7500 -- would it work just as well on a 1280?  Or, will we
still face the problem that each printer type needs unique curves?

I would assume that quadtone printers and hextone printers would require
different curves, but with the same number of inks in all hextones, then it
might be possible for a driver to use a factor that equalizes the way they
handle the input data from the curve.  To do this equalization, of course,
would take more work for the IJC folks, but it might vastly increase the
usefulness of the software.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_______________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:48 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Colorbyte and Ink questions


  On 1/7/03 5:52 AM, "Jean-Marc Humbert <humbertjm@...>"
  <humbertjm@...> wrote:

  > Is the 1160 supported by IP5?

  No, but it is supported by the new Inkjet Control driver.

  Robert


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