Digital BW, The Print

Just joined the discussion group and I hate to ask something that's 
probably already been discussed but.....I'm looking at at a digital 
B&W darkroom in the near future and among all the things there are to 
be confused about, I've got questions about the software set-up. 
Piezo has had well documented problems, most seemingly related to 
hardware compatability (banding, etc.)and is expensive. On the other 
hand, MIS (presumably with an Epson driver) looked like Tri-X in 
Rodinal vs. a 4X5 negative compared to the Piezo system in the "blow-
ups" on Cone's website. The MIS website snipes at Piezo - even saying 
one of their workflow authors preferred the Epson workflow to Piezo. 
Who knows what to believe. It would be nice if the MIS inks offered a 
real alternative using Piezo software. I didn't think most people 
were too impressed with any Epson driver. The MIS website also 
mentions a coming B-curve plug-in. Is it a new driver than replaces 
the Epson?

Finally, I saw a website with a program called Icefields that 
predated Piezo and looked like serious stuff but it may have required 
a third party RIP to work at its peak. The website has since 
disappeared. Anyone know anything about it? 

Has anyone used MIS and Piezo together? Icefields? I understand Epson 
may even come out with a dedicated B & W printer so you hate to start 
down the wrong path.....

Thanks.

this is from the 9000 list-

IceFields Is NOT Dead!
Please contact me offlist if IceFields 3.1 interests you.
We have been given authorization to resell this software to any and
all.
- JT

John Thompson
 Alpha Imaging Technologies
(800)282-0017

Tyler

>
>
>Finally, I saw a website with a program called Icefields that
>predated Piezo and looked like serious stuff but it may have required
>a third party RIP to work at its peak. The website has since
>disappeared. Anyone know anything about it?

Thanks for reminding me that I have Icefields gathering dust on my old Mac.

"Making Digital Negatives for Contact Printing"  (ISBN 0-9649638-6-8) 
by Dan Burkholder has a lot of information on using Icefields.

Maybe its time for me to have another look at it.

Jerry.

Could you guys tell us a little more about icefields? What it does and 
any pros/cons.
thanks,

mikeH

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., meander@m... wrote:

> >
> >
> >Finally, I saw a website with a program called Icefields that
> >predated Piezo and looked like serious stuff but it may have required
> >a third party RIP to work at its peak. The website has since
> >disappeared. Anyone know anything about it?
> 
> Thanks for reminding me that I have Icefields gathering dust on my old Mac.
> 
> "Making Digital Negatives for Contact Printing"  (ISBN 0-9649638-6-8) 
> by Dan Burkholder has a lot of information on using Icefields.
> 
> Maybe its time for me to have another look at it.
> 
> Jerry.

>Could you guys tell us a little more about icefields? What it does and
>any pros/cons.
>thanks,
>
>mikeH

Mike,

You are more or less asking for the history of producing Quad tone 
prints from an ink jet printer.

To be very, very brief......

Every discussion that takes place here is a repeat of topics that 
appeared on the Epson / Leben List over two years ago. At that time 
two printers were in use, the 3000 and for those that could not 
afford that the Photo Ex. The only things that have changed are the 
ink sets and papers. The problems still exist. Many of the problems 
were solved by the introduction of Piezography with its plug and play 
capabilities.

Dan Culbertson and Tyler Boley were producing workflows for the 3000 
using MIS Quad tone inks on papers such as Somerset Velvet. A lot of 
people were applying those workflows to the Photo Ex. It must be said 
that the prints produced were quite acceptable.

In tandem with Dan and Tyler, people like Dan Burkholder and Strange 
Ross were developing work flows for more specific uses. Strange Ross 
, http://axp.psi.ku.dk/~ross/  , for his Photogravure and Dan 
Burkholder,  http://www.danburkholder.com  , for enlarged negatives 
for Platinum printing.

Icefields is a software RIP that converts grayscale images into 
stochastic, random dot, images. At that time it was thought Icefields 
might do what the Piezography software does today. However, Jon Cone 
hinted he was planning to introduce a system that would answer all 
our prayers, Piezography was born and Icefields  placed on the shelf.

At the risk of driving you into the depths of paranoia, one of the 
problems that will never be solved is the inconsistency between 
batches of paper. No paper mill can guarantee that the next batch of 
the same paper will be identical to the last. So, all the time spent 
tweaking curves for your currant supply of paper and ink may have to 
be repeated when you re-order. This may be one of the reasons why 
some people are getting poor results with curves that work for 
others. Hence, the hunt for a plug and play solution that would allow 
us to just get on with making prints instead of playing with 
technology.

To describe Icefield in detail would mean plagiarizing Dan 
Burkholder´s book and I don´t think that would be right. Anyway, from 
Tyler´s post it looks like Icefield has been updated, perhaps he has 
more information about that.

Regards,

Jerry.

BTW, there were two Icefields, a "big" version for a number of 
different processes and Icefields LT (for Lite?) for inkjects only. 
It looked extremely sophisticated but was anything but plug and play. 
I don't believe what you saw on your screen bore any resemblance to 
the output. The website info didn't say anything about whether the 
RIP increased native printer resolution.

I know the Icefields thing was more interesting but any comments on 
the rest of the questions? Sorry if it's been asked before.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., meander@m... wrote:
> You are more or less asking for the history of producing Quad tone 
> prints from an ink jet printer.

Martin and I were recently discussing how interesting it would be for someo=
ne to compile, there are certainly
many gaps in my knowledge of it. What an excellent 
post Jerry, I just have a few footnotes.

snip
> Dan Culbertson and Tyler Boley were producing workflows for the
3000 
> using MIS Quad tone inks on papers such as Somerset Velvet.

Dan was way ahead of me, and I was essentially trying to grasp all
the info he kept posting and make it work for me. I was 
so captivated and excited by what I was learning I tended to post a
lot, but I was definitely a follower. At this point, Dan and 
others reported less than satisfactory results with Icefields, so
though it was still available I never tried it.

A lot of 
> people were applying those workflows to the Photo Ex. It must be
said 
> that the prints produced were quite acceptable.

Really? It worked for somebody?!
> 
> In tandem with Dan and Tyler, people like Dan Burkholder and
Strange 
> Ross were developing work flows for more specific uses. ...

I think there are others that were working independently but quietly.
One was Jon Cone, he was developing and teaching 
similar techniques at his workshops. Obviously he is a leading quad
expert, culminating in Piezography and it's continued 
development. I'm sure there were other expert printers out there
perfecting similar workflows for there own purposes.

> At the risk of driving you into the depths of paranoia, one of the 
> problems that will never be solved is the inconsistency between 
> batches of paper. ..

This is a very good point. Another issue cropping up is that the
newest generation of Epsons have manufacturing 
tolerances (voltages, etc.) that are possibly too loose for the non
OEM materials and workflows we work with.

> Tyler´s post it looks like Icefield has been updated, perhaps he
has 
> more information about that.

There was an inquiry about it on the 9000 list, and I was interested
that there was the reply I mentioned. I don't know if it's 
actually been updated or simply still available. My lacking
understanding of it is that it created a 4 channel pre-screened 
(stochastic, as you mentioned) file, separated to work with the then
standard MIS set, postscript I would think.
A postscript RIP driver was then required to print it, no one was
happy with what was available at the time. I wonder what 
PressReady would do with it?
Tyler

THM,

I realized you got some answers to your Icefield question but not the 
others.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., thm@b... wrote:
> Just joined the discussion group and I hate to ask something that's 
> probably already been discussed but.....I'm looking at at a digital 
> B&W darkroom in the near future and among all the things there are 
to 
> be confused about, I've got questions about the software set-up. 
> Piezo has had well documented problems, most seemingly related to 
> hardware compatability (banding, etc.)and is expensive. On the 
other 
> hand, MIS (presumably with an Epson driver) looked like Tri-X in 
> Rodinal vs. a 4X5 negative compared to the Piezo system in 
the "blow-
> ups" on Cone's website.

I had the same reaction to this comparison and it was a very big 
deciding factor in my starting with Piezo. I now have the MIS VM in a 
1280 and Piezo in a 1200, and I just don't see anything looking like 
that kind of difference they show in that comparison. I have to say 
that I find it extremely misleading.

My own opinion on the two, and I am sure there are many others, is 
that the Piezo driver pushes the Epson printers to the limit in order 
to obtain maximum dpi, sharpness and smooth tone. I have seen some 
wonderful Piezo prints off of different 1160's that were entirely 
free of dots, bands or any kind of pattern under magnification. My 
1200 has never come close. Despite all my effort there is some 
microscopic banding and window screen pattern.

I believe that the problem is that, if the specs of an individual 
Epson printer is not dead on or start to drift, the Piezo driver 
reveals the flaws and those flaws can show up on your prints. I think 
the Epson driver is perhaps a more realistic driver that better takes 
into account the printer-to-printer variation of the mechanical 
capabilities of the Epson desktop printers.

With everything working properly and at normal viewing distances, I 
do not find that one is better than the other. Under magnification a 
good Piezo is slightly better, a Piezo with microscopic banding is 
worse. I will take the dots over the banding myself. This in not to 
say the Epson drive is perfect in regards to banding. Close 
examination of a print will show you the direction of print travel in 
very smooth areas. With the Epson driver I see this in the 75% tones 
as a dark linear texture and with the Piezo in the 25 to 50% tones as 
light lines.

I have not yet tried the new Piezo software so perhaps there have 
been some improvements.

> The MIS website snipes at Piezo - even saying 
> one of their workflow authors preferred the Epson workflow to 
Piezo. 
> Who knows what to believe. It would be nice if the MIS inks offered 
a 
> real alternative using Piezo software.

I agree but that does not seem likely at this point. The end users 
seem to be building up a pretty good set of workflows and curves for 
the MIS VM and the workflow is pretty simple if not as elegant as the 
Piezo.

> I didn't think most people 
> were too impressed with any Epson driver.

I think it is pretty good myself and well matched to the hardware.

> The MIS website also 
> mentions a coming B-curve plug-in. Is it a new driver than replaces 
> the Epson?

I am not familiar with this and was not able to find it on their 
site. Can you point me to where you found it?
> 
> Finally, I saw a website with a program called Icefields that 
> predated Piezo and looked like serious stuff but it may have 
required 
> a third party RIP to work at its peak. The website has since 
> disappeared. Anyone know anything about it? 
> 
> Has anyone used MIS and Piezo together? 

I have seen prints made using the MIS Full Spectrum ink set and the 
Piezo driver on an 1160 in prime condition. There was some small 
differences in brightness/contrast but the quality was equal to the 
print with Piezo inks. Two big problems here are the fact that MIS 
only sells the FS set in quad and not hex. Since there are no longer 
any new 1160 or 3000's available in the U.S. this is limiting. The 
other issue is that ConeTech does not sell the software without a set 
of cartridges or a CIS. 

Piezo is a very good way to go especially if you have not experience 
in quad printing. I would still be using it if I liked the color of 
the ink set but I don't. I think this is one of the main motivations 
for some people to move to other ink sets. Other people love the 
color of Piezo inks. It is a very individual decision and the number 
of choices is growing. 

Martin Wesley

I believe you may be thinking of John Woolf saying something about
'preferring the qualities of the Epson driver'. To my mind this is akin to
saying "I invented a system which is great and the best system, yes, better
than other systems". Equally, I suspect things (printers) have moved on a
little since Inkjetmall did a comparison between MIS and Piezograpy... in
that non-Piezo quad-workflows and curves will benefit from smaller dots that
the Piezo program does not particularly (to my knowledge).

I suspect John Woolf prefers his workflow because he presumably developed it
for himself, and at some stage he was kind enough to publish it. I found it
interesting that there was no longer a link to his workflow on the MIS site
(unless I missed it - I do apologise if this is so). Whichever way, I
imagine a quad approach that involves curves in the manner of MIS workflows
_will_ give you massive flexibility, but probably also a great deal of
opportunity to screw things up, or get caught up in artistic expression at
the print-curve stage, or...   There are some people out there that are
having GREAT success with them, but others are not, it would seem, even
using the exact same set of curves. I have heard that some find that even a
curve that 'works' will not necessarily work for all images. In this regard,
Piezography seems to have a very good 'hit ratio' - you should be able to
print what you see on-screen... with no dots :)

For me personally, Piezography has been a way to click 'Print' and get a
great picture very quickly... For me, I have little enough time to
concentrate on image-making. Piezo is therefore right up my street! I am
interested in alternatives, but so far they are sitting in bottles and
waiting for a time when I can reasonably dedicate 'quite some time' to some
trials and errors and so on. In the end, time may be a factor that keeps me
solely, and happily, with Piezo... even though I do like the sound
_personally_ of the Variable Mix advocated / developed by Paul Roark.

Disclosure: I am a Cone reseller :)

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thm@... [mailto:thm@...]
<snip>

> The MIS website snipes at Piezo - even saying
> one of their workflow authors preferred the Epson workflow to Piezo.
> Who knows what to believe. It would be nice if the MIS inks offered a
> real alternative using Piezo software. I didn't think most people
> were too impressed with any Epson driver. The MIS website also
> mentions a coming B-curve plug-in. Is it a new driver than replaces
> the Epson?

Nij,

Actually John Woolf's statement isn't quite that strong and presents 
what appears to be an honest opinion about the two. You can find it 
at:

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/woolf_comment.html

His workflow is for the MIS Full Spectrum set for the 3000 and 1160 
and is still on the MIS site. This is the set people are also using 
with the Piezo driver.

Both ConeTech and MIS could greatly benefit from an overhaul of their 
websites BTW. Finding things on either of them is extremely 
problematic. (I know a really, really great site designer if anybody 
needs one. :)

To my mind the value of the MIS VM set is not that I will produce 
prints in multiple tones but that I will get the one tone I want to 
use for all my prints. I am extremely sensitive to print color. This 
is NOT a blessing. It is a curse and is an issue for me in silver 
printing as well as inkjet.

I see three forces at work on the quad ink set situation over the 
next few months. The MIS VM will get much easier to use on a wide 
range of printers due to a lot of activity in producing more curves 
that will put users in a position to simply use standard Photoshop 
tools to get the results they want. Secondly, ConeTech will release 
the "Selenium" ink set which will remove some of the drive to seek 
elsewhere for those who are not satisfied with the color of the 
current Piezo inks. Cost is still a factor here and if MIS releases a 
hex version of the Full Spectrum that will add another wrinkle.

Finally the arrival of the Epson C80 ($179 - $30 rebate) with the 
DuraBrite pigmented inks (advertised print life 70 years) and 
individual CMYK cartridges is a forerunner of the next generation of 
Epson printers which may shortly spawn a replacement for the 1280 and 
1290. I realize the technical challenges but ConeTech may finally 
release Piezo for the 1280 only a few months before it disappears 
from production. I would say that the odds are good that the new C80 
generation has different chips on the cartridges so Epson will be 
really motivated to replace the 1280 now that 3rd party chipped 
cartridges are out.

In any case the whole area is likely to remain in flux for the 
foreseeable future. Then there are the rumors of the Epson grayscale 
printer and the RGBCMYKk printers....

We live in interesting times.

Martin




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> I believe you may be thinking of John Woolf saying something about
> 'preferring the qualities of the Epson driver'. To my mind this is 
akin to
> saying "I invented a system which is great and the best system, 
yes, better
> than other systems". Equally, I suspect things (printers) have 
moved on a
> little since Inkjetmall did a comparison between MIS and 
Piezograpy... in
> that non-Piezo quad-workflows and curves will benefit from smaller 
dots that
> the Piezo program does not particularly (to my knowledge).
> 
> I suspect John Woolf prefers his workflow because he presumably 
developed it
> for himself, and at some stage he was kind enough to publish it. I 
found it
> interesting that there was no longer a link to his workflow on the 
MIS site
> (unless I missed it - I do apologise if this is so). Whichever way, 
I
> imagine a quad approach that involves curves in the manner of MIS 
workflows
> _will_ give you massive flexibility, but probably also a great deal 
of
> opportunity to screw things up, or get caught up in artistic 
expression at
> the print-curve stage, or...   There are some people out there that 
are
> having GREAT success with them, but others are not, it would seem, 
even
> using the exact same set of curves. I have heard that some find 
that even a
> curve that 'works' will not necessarily work for all images. In 
this regard,
> Piezography seems to have a very good 'hit ratio' - you should be 
able to
> print what you see on-screen... with no dots :)
> 
> For me personally, Piezography has been a way to click 'Print' and 
get a
> great picture very quickly... For me, I have little enough time to
> concentrate on image-making. Piezo is therefore right up my street! 
I am
> interested in alternatives, but so far they are sitting in bottles 
and
> waiting for a time when I can reasonably dedicate 'quite some time' 
to some
> trials and errors and so on. In the end, time may be a factor that 
keeps me
> solely, and happily, with Piezo... even though I do like the sound
> _personally_ of the Variable Mix advocated / developed by Paul 
Roark.
> 
> Disclosure: I am a Cone reseller :)
> 
> Nij
> 
(snip)

> In any case the whole area is likely to remain in flux for the
> foreseeable future. Then there are the rumors of the Epson grayscale
> printer and the RGBCMYKk printers....
> 
> We live in interesting times.
> 
> Martin

Nice summary Martin, You make me very happy I got an 1160 when I did....

Todd

Todd,

We should get Nij to sell 1160's (The are still being sold new in the 
EU the last I checked) through MWORDS. We could order a brand new one 
and just add an adapeter plug and a 120-240 transformer and you are 
all set. Unless you want some Epson support. ;-)

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> > In any case the whole area is likely to remain in flux for the
> > foreseeable future. Then there are the rumors of the Epson 
grayscale
> > printer and the RGBCMYKk printers....
> > 
> > We live in interesting times.
> > 
> > Martin
> 
> Nice summary Martin, You make me very happy I got an 1160 when I 
did....
> 
> Todd

Here, Here for the 1160...may my fleet last for ever!

On 9/18/01 9:58 PM, "Todd Flashner" <tflash@...> wrote:

> 
> 
>> In any case the whole area is likely to remain in flux for the
>> foreseeable future. Then there are the rumors of the Epson grayscale
>> printer and the RGBCMYKk printers....
>> 
>> We live in interesting times.
>> 
>> Martin
> 
> Nice summary Martin, You make me very happy I got an 1160 when I did....
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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> 
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> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Hi Martin,

interjected replies!

> Actually John Woolf's statement isn't quite that strong and presents
> what appears to be an honest opinion about the two. You can find it
> at:
>
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/woolf_comment.html

His review seems quite balanced. MIS say on their quadtones page:
""""""""""""""""""
John says, "These inks when used with the Epson driver, produce the finest
black and white prints I have ever seen". He also has told us that he has
tried them with the Cone driver, and they work great. However, he prefers
using the Epson driver, due to its superior qualities.
""""""""""""""""""
As I could not find what you found, I <ahem> assumed that the comment about
'...due to it's superior qualities' was being referred to by the previous
poster. I was intending to convey that MIS was not unbiased, Inkjetmall may
not be unbiased, and equally, John Woolf may not be unbiased about what he
has done! Please - this is not a criticism of John Woolf AT ALL. I'm just
saying that sometimes there are commercial reasons to always look on the
bright side :) and sometimes pride, personal taste, <whatever> can come into
the frame aswell.

> Both ConeTech and MIS could greatly benefit from an overhaul of their
> websites BTW. Finding things on either of them is extremely
> problematic. (I know a really, really great site designer if anybody
> needs one. :)

Agreed entirely.

> To my mind the value of the MIS VM set is not that I will produce
> prints in multiple tones but that I will get the one tone I want to
> use for all my prints. I am extremely sensitive to print color. This
> is NOT a blessing. It is a curse and is an issue for me in silver
> printing as well as inkjet.
Yes, I can see how that could be bad ;)


Your assessment of moves forward in the next few months was interesting -
the C80 sounds annoying!

Nij

Michael,

Many thanks for the information and experiences you have posted. I hope I
did not give the impression I was doing VM and Roark workflow down :) - I
just appreciate it is different!

The only puzzle I have from your comments is that of the build up you
mention for Piezo on the pads - I know what you mean and see exactly the
same on my 1160, 7000 and 1160 running Cone color pigs (as an aside... Clog
free :). It is perhaps less of a problem withg the Color, but it's difficult
for me to say with reliability... as I have done less Color printing.

What I am asking here is... wouldn't you expect that with a pigment /
particulate based ink? Or, put another way, can anyone explain why MIS VM
does not do this? Perhaps a lower pigment concentration... or?

I'm just an amateur scientist(!) so please forgive if overall, this question
is irrelevant!

Best regards, and once again, thank you for the informative posting...

Nij


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael J. Kravit [mailto:kravit@...]
> Nij,
>
> I have just completed 2 months of testing and working with Paul
> Roark to develop curves for the MIS Variables on the 7000 (PC). I
> believe you are right when you say that there is a great amount
> of flexibility with this system. I just wanted to give you me
> opinions now that I have had a substantial amount of time to work
> with and compare the two systems.
>
> 1. The dreaded DOT.
<snip>

With respect to the comaprision I made to Nij in my last post I feel 
it only fair to say that after using both systems for 2 months I have 
decided to use the Piezography BW24Pro RIP as my primary system of 
choice. 

This is for two primary reasons.
1. The WYSIWYG advantage
2. I like the "platinum like" feel that I get with Piezo.
3. The perceived or real sharpness advantage of the Piezo RIP over 
the Epson driver.

As I stated, both are great systems, but my time is limited. I want 
to spend more time shooting and less time experimenting.

Mike

Michael J. Kravit
Architect/Photographer

Nij,

I have just completed 2 months of testing and working with Paul Roark to develop curves for the MIS Variables on the 7000 (PC). I believe you are right when you say that there is a great amount of flexibility with this system. I just wanted to give you me opinions now that I have had a substantial amount of time to work with and compare the two systems.

1. The dreaded DOT.

With the development of the Roark Curves, the MIS Variables are in fact DOT free for the most part. Paul has solved the problem of the Epson diver intermixing the darker inks in the lighter zones.  With the correct setting, this system will print a continuous tone image. The PiezoBW24 RIP is completely dot free and exhibits a tight dither reminiscent of Iris prints. This is a result of the Pixel Professor program that is incorporated into the RIP.

Advantage:  Piezography

2. Cost

There is no doubt that the Cone Piezography system is costly. The Piezo BW24Pro RIP for the 7000 costs in excess of $2,100.  The replacement ink cartridges cost $450 per set. No provision has been made for the availability of bulk inks.  The MIS inks cost approximately 1/5 of Piezo inks.

Advantage: MIS Variable Tone Inks

3. Sharpness

This one may be subjective and image dependent, but I have found that the Piezograhy BW24Pro RIP produces sharper prints than the  MIS/Epson driver prints. The detail in small areas such as people eyes, fingers, cloth texture, etc. appear to be more defined and real looking with the Piezo RIP.

Advantage: Piezography

4. Tonal Range

There is no question that the Piezo produces deeper blacks. This may be an artificial illusion based upon the shadow compression that Cone does with his higher densities on the curve. None the less, prints appear to have deeper richer blacks. The MIS inks produce greater shadow detail as a result of the linear curves that Paul Roark is writing.  This is a personal choice, but if you look at a fine silver print you will find that great master printers do not rely on very contrasty prints. They have a smooth deep tonal range. 

Advantage:  Draw

5. Ease of Use

"What you see is what you get" has a lot to be said for it. Being able to scan and load a grayscale image, manipulate it, and print on a calibrated system without having to convert to RGB and load a colorization curve is a significant advantage.  I found that with the Piezo BW24Pro system, my success rate with getting a final print is much higher than with the MIS Variable tone system. Granted, that as time goes on, I will become more skilled with the MIS inks and hopefully my success rate will increase. But the WYSIWYG ability of the Piezo system is a joy to use.

Advantage: Piezography

6. Customer Support

Jon Cone and Bill Burgh have been a pleasure to deal with. They are deeply concerned with the success of their customers and  have been responsive for the most part. On occasion, questions or telephone calls would go unanswered due to huge business demands. As their system becomes more widely accepted, I would hope that their customer service would become a bit more responsive. I must say that Shelby has been a pleasure to work with when Bill and Jon are off doing what they do.

MIS's Bob Zeis is second to none. Bob responds to Emails, shows concern and is very helpful.  He is honestly concerned and will go that extra mile to help you if he can. He responds to mistakes with an unparallel sense of urgency.

Advantage: Draw

7. Banding Issues

There are definite banding issues with the Piezography software. Whether these are the fault of scans, printer quality or the Piezography software, they are real and become a serious impediment until the end user can solve the issues that cause the banding.  In 2 months of testing, I did not experience any banding problems with the MIS Variable/Epson driver system.

Advantage: MIS Variables

8. Clogging

Piezography inks do clog. Many users report regular clogging problems. I have not experienced significant clogging with the Piezo inks. What I do have is a sludge that builds up on the capping station inside the printer.  This sludge must be removed regularly or it will get on the print head and smear a perfectly good print.  I have had no clogging problems with the MIS Variable Inks.

Advantage: MIS Variables

9. Hayes Syndrome

A number of users have experienced what has become known as the Hayes syndrome with the Piezography inks. Personally I have not. This syndrome results is a loss of print density over time. Eventually prints are printed flat with an overall green tone and a severe lack of density in the blacks. Intensive cleaning of the printer heads is required. In all fairness, I believe that this syndrome occurs more frequently on the 1160 than any other printer. I have mot heard of it happening with the 7000 nor have I experienced it.

Advantage: Inconclusive

10. Profiles

Piezography is dependant upon the paper profiles that Cone provides. They are somewhat flexible. Recently Cone has released a whole bunch of new profiles. One of which will work with almost every paper on the market.  With the MIS system, you must re-write curves or use transfer function in the Epson printer driver to tailor your curves to your paper.

Advantage: Piezography

: Non conclusive

So in conclusion, booth system provide the tools that photographers and printers need to produce expressive fine prints. The choice is yours and like any other x vs. y brand discussion or debate, most probably one system may provide advantages for one person and the other will provide advantages for another.  Try both and make an informed decision as to what works for you.
Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nij 
  For me personally, Piezography has been a way to click 'Print' and get a
  great picture very quickly... 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<kravit@b...> wrote:
> Nij,
>I just wanted to give you me opinions now that I have had a 
>substantial amount of time to work with and compare the two 
>systems.


Martin/Antonis:

Mike Kravit's post is a great one and should be uploaded to 
some Files/Bookmark section. It's a great, objective summary for 
people who are looking to choose.

In addition, I'd add these things too:

* If you are on a 7000, one major difference is that Piezo is PC 
only. If you have a Mac, you much also factor into it a purchase 
and learning curve of running a PC computer to run the printer. 
Not a small detail at all...

* I have had a tough time keeping the lines full on my MIS CFS. I 
have NOT had much success getting emails returned from MIS.

* I too have seen what appears to be not a great black from the 
MIS hextones. But, with time, I think someone could learn to 
manipulate Paul's curves on their own. But it's certainly NOT plug 
n' play, like Piezo seems to be.

-Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com

Nij,

The assumption is that a manufacturer or vendor will always promote 
their products as being superior and the best. Hopefully they also 
believe that is true.

The shaky ground is to move from "My product is great." to "My 
product is better than all others." to "My product is better than 
brand x." to "Brand x is terrible." At some point you cross the line 
into what I call "negative advertising" where you have more to say 
about the deficiencies of the competition than you do about your own 
product's benefits. My impression is that negative advertising is a 
very risky venture and may cut in both directions. The less of this 
the better. I am not saying that ConeTech or MIS have gone there but 
they seem to be pointed in that direction at times.

All the end users pick hardware, software, ink sets, cameras, etc. 
and then tend to be biased in the direction of their choices. (Unless 
of course it didn't go well then they are biased in the opposite 
direction!) Human nature. I find a world of difference between 
saying "..the best I have ever seen." and "..the best that anyone has 
ever seen."

I hope that we will all arrive at a set of artistic tools that will 
allow us to give reality to our different visions. At the same time I 
hope that we will all remember that there are many ways to do the 
same thing and let the other guy do it his way.

You should be excited about the C80! A printer specifically designed 
to use pigmented inks! Maybe it will be great with Piezo. I am 
surprised ConeTech did not add the 2000P to their line of supported 
printers. Why did they choose the 7000 over 7500? What are the head 
differences between the 1160, 1200, 1280, 2000P, C80, 7000 and 7500?

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
(snip earlier)

Mike,

Nicely put and a good summary of the current state of affairs between 
the two ink systems.

My experiences with Piezo on the 1200 and the MIS VM on the 1280 are 
very similar. Mine differ only in the Dmax, which I find to be dead 
equal between the two as far as my eyeballs can tell, and while I see 
the sharpness difference under magnification, I do not see it at 
normal viewing distances but I am working with small prints. 

I would also like to suggest that it may be possible to use the same 
techniques as described in the Piezo manual to get WYSIWYG with the 
MIS VM. Print out at 21 step wedge using a particular VM curve and 
then match the on screen view to the step wedge using a custom Dot 
Gain Curve in Color Settings. Save this as a custom "Color Settings." 
Work with these setting to edit in grayscale then convert the file to 
a Gray Gamma 2.2 prior to the conversion to sRGB prior to printing. 
Not elegant perhaps workable. With a macro this could be simplified.

Thanks,

Martin


 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<kravit@b...> wrote:
> Nij,
> 
> I have just completed 2 months of testing and working with Paul 
Roark to develop curves for the MIS Variables on the 7000 (PC). I 
believe you are right when you say that there is a great amount of 
(snip)

Mark,

Done. Under Files>Ink Data.

Added Mikes second post, your comments and my own.


Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:

(snip)
> 
> Martin/Antonis:
> 
> Mike Kravit's post is a great one and should be uploaded to 
> some Files/Bookmark section. It's a great, objective summary for 
> people who are looking to choose.
> 
(snip)