Digital BW, The Print

janherma wrote:

>Hello B&W Group,
>
>I have a second printer (Epson 1290) available now for printing B&W 
>(glossy prints) and for me it is still a difficult choice which ink 
>to use, Lyson SG or wait for Mis UltraTone till carts are coming 
>available.
>
>I have Lyson Fotonic running on a Epson 1270 and wich is doing a good 
>job for me on glossy papers.
>
>Can anyone help me making this choice for B&W printing?
>
>
>  
>
Unless you plan on using a CIS/CFS why nail yourself into a position..?

You can use the Lyson SG's now (they profile easily) and change over to 
the Ultratones once there is a knowledge base of their real-world use...

Just remember to run cleaning cartridges if you do switch over to remove 
all traces of ink from the heads..

Keith  

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Keith,

I remember that you were using Lyson SG or QB inks on 1270/90 
printers, are you still using them and and if you do what are your 
comments about them, and what papers do you use?

Thanks for replying.

Jan




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> 
> 
> janherma wrote:
> 
> >Hello B&W Group,
> >
> >I have a second printer (Epson 1290) available now for printing 
B&W 
> >(glossy prints) and for me it is still a difficult choice which 
ink 
> >to use, Lyson SG or wait for Mis UltraTone till carts are coming 
> >available.
> >
> >I have Lyson Fotonic running on a Epson 1270 and wich is doing a 
good 
> >job for me on glossy papers.
> >
> >Can anyone help me making this choice for B&W printing?
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> Unless you plan on using a CIS/CFS why nail yourself into a 
position..?
> 
> You can use the Lyson SG's now (they profile easily) and change 
over to 
> the Ultratones once there is a knowledge base of their real-world 
use...
> 
> Just remember to run cleaning cartridges if you do switch over to 
remove 
> all traces of ink from the heads..
> 
> Keith  
> 
>  
> 
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON 
printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
>  
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks 
together 
> guys"

janherma wrote:

>Keith,
>
>I remember that you were using Lyson SG or QB inks on 1270/90 
>printers, are you still using them and and if you do what are your 
>comments about them, and what papers do you use?
>
>  
>
I use the SG's on the advice of friends at Lyson, the QBs are an older 
and more metameric dyeset,...

I've used them on a host of Glossy and Lustre papers..  My favorite 
lustre paper for them is the Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl..  The Canon 
Pro Photo Glossy tops my list of Glossy options or Red River Polar 
Gloss..  They work well even on things like Red River's Silver (a 
reflective mylar material forget about serious profiling for this paper),,

I did have some noticeable metamerism with ONE coated matte paper, I 
wish I could remember which one (I know it was a Hahnemuhle paper - 210 
gsm "Coarse Felt" I think - no loss as Lyson's Standard Fine Art is 
basically a version of that paper with a coating tweaked by Lyson - no 
problems with the latter) .. Uncoated papers seem fine if you can deal 
with the reduced saturation of course.. I've even printed some really 
neat faux cyano-types on Red River Sheer for Backlighting..

I've had very little clogging and be VERY happy with this inkset.. One 
thing I REALLY like is that I was able to actually profile them using 
Profiler Plus!  That makes it a lot easier to predict my final results..

That said, I have another machine dedicated to MIS inks when I want the 
current ultimate in inklife and/or can just as easily use matte output 
that falls in a traditional B&W print range The SG's offer a much wider 
range of hue options while the MIS inks let me go from warm near sepia 
to nice and cold traditional print tones.

I'll use the Ultratones for my MIS dedicated machine if/when they have 
sets that  can go as warm as the current MIS VM-Sepia and as cold as the 
MIS-VM. Until then, I'm still using the MIS VM sets.. Even so, I will 
keep the SGs in the workflow, as IMHO they offer tonal options no other 
inkset can match.
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG or wait for Mis UltraTone


> I did have some noticeable metamerism with ONE coated matte
paper, I
> wish I could remember which one (I know it was a Hahnemuhle
paper - 210
> gsm "Coarse Felt" I think - no loss as Lyson's Standard Fine
Art is
> basically a version of that paper with a coating tweaked by
Lyson - no
> problems with the latter)

The Hahnemuhle coating was once a result of cooperation between
Lyson and HM. That paper was sold on the Iris market by Lyson.
When the Epson piezo (Epson, Mutoh,Roland, Mimaki) revolution
started HM went on the market themselves, no longer bound by the
agreement for the Iris market. Lyson still sold the same
rebranded paper as before and it had a disastrous test with
Fotonic dyes at Wilhelm's test facilities.
The Iris technology of CMYK dye inks with multiple droplets
frequencies with lots of ink was quite different from the
Epson/Fotonic CcMmYK and that was shown in the fade properties.
Shortly after that happened the rumour started that Lyson
developed a new coating for their papers. I'm not convinced that
Lyson ever introduced a new coating for HM papers.

It would be nice if someone with a dye printer could print both
varieties and do a fade test, so that tale can be proven right or
wrong.

Ernst

In answer to the original question, my strong advice is avoid Lyson
SG 
at all costs. 

If you follow a thread of mine from a few weeks ago ("Lyson Small 
Gamut - Shifting Green") you'll see why. With a pit in my stomach, I 
have been busy recalling 120 prints of mine - both sold and given
away 
- from around the country - in the last two weeks - and ALL of them 
have shifted green from their original sepia hue. I now have to 
reprint all of them. Some were over a year old, some were only six 
months old. All were framed under glass, printed on either Lyson 
Standard fine art, or Hahnemuhle German Etching. (The lead chemist at 
Lyson in the UK told me that they DID amend the coating for the 
Standard Fine Art).

A couple of friends using SG have had the exact same problem.

Just stick with MIS over Lyson whatever you do. Yes, you have far
less 
range in the tinting, the foolish reason I went with SG to begin with 
- but with the metamerism and shifting tones, so what. 

Also, the Epson Ultrachromes on the 2200 using OPM/IJC works 
fantastically too. No metamerism like MIS and real-looking sepia.

In my opinion, Lyson should be run out of business. I've even noticed 
my large-format Iris prints done with Lyson quadtones are a touch 
greener a year and a half after being printed (my large format prints 
are now done sing MIS on a 7500 and look fantastic.)

I'm even worried about using Lyson Print Guard still - has anyone had 
bad experience with that affecting the prints furhter down the line?

Nick


.

----- Original Message -----

From: "nick90290" <NickBrandt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG or wait for Mis UltraTone


> In answer to the original question, my strong advice is avoid
Lyson
> SG
> at all costs.
>
> If you follow a thread of mine from a few weeks ago ("Lyson
Small
> Gamut - Shifting Green") you'll see why. With a pit in my
stomach, I
> have been busy recalling 120 prints of mine - both sold and
given
> away
> - from around the country - in the last two weeks - and ALL of
them
> have shifted green from their original sepia hue. I now have to
> reprint all of them. Some were over a year old, some were only
six
> months old. All were framed under glass, printed on either
Lyson
> Standard fine art, or Hahnemuhle German Etching. (The lead
chemist at
> Lyson in the UK told me that they DID amend the coating for the
> Standard Fine Art).

And are there any fading differences of the inks between the two
papers?

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst Dinkla" 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:

> And are there any fading differences of the inks between the two
> papers?
> 
> Ernst

Hi Ernst

You know, I wish I could answer that question because I would love to 
know too. Unfortunately, at the time, I did not keep a record of
which 
prints were done on the Hahnemule German Etching and which were done 
on the Lyson Standard Fine Art (as at that time I had been told they 
were the exact one and same paper). Additionally, many of the photos 
were done on Lumijet Classic Velour, which is also supposed to be 
"identical".

I will tell you, however, that the worst shifts to green were on 
Concord Rag, which I stopped using some time ago.

Nick


..........

As my printing aesthetics lean much more toward "straight" 
black-and-white, I've simply stuck to Lyson's Quad Black Neutral 
for use in my 1160 (all prints fine thus far over the last year and a 
half, printing on EAM/EEM and HPR). I' *have* wondered idly 
about their SG inks, however, regarding their mid-to-long-term 
efficacy. I guess I'll be scratching SG of the list of "just for the
hell of it" inks to try out.

- Barrett

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"nick90290" <NickBrandt@a...> wrote:

>In answer to the original question, my strong advice is avoid 
>Lyson SG at all costs. 
> 
>If you follow a thread of mine from a few weeks ago ("Lyson 
>Small Gamut - Shifting Green") you'll see why. With a pit in my 
>stomach, I have been busy recalling 120 prints of mine - both 
>sold and given away  - from around the country - in the last two 
>weeks - and ALL of them have shifted green from their original 
>sepia hue. I now have to reprint all of them. Some were over a 
>year old, some were only six months old. All were framed under 
>glass, printed on either Lyson Standard fine art, or 
>Hahnemuhle German Etching. (The lead chemist at Lyson in 
>the UK told me that they DID amend the coating for the 
>Standard Fine Art).
> 
> A couple of friends using SG have had the exact same 
>problem.
> 
>Just stick with MIS over Lyson whatever you do. Yes, you have 
>far less range in the tinting, the foolish reason I went with SG to 
>begin with  - but with the metamerism and shifting tones, so 
>what. 
> 
>Also, the Epson Ultrachromes on the 2200 using OPM/IJC 
>works fantastically too. No metamerism like MIS and 
>real-looking sepia.
> 
>In my opinion, Lyson should be run out of business. I've even 
>noticed my large-format Iris prints done with Lyson quadtones 
>are a touch greener a year and a half after being printed (my 
>large format prints are now done sing MIS on a 7500 and look 
>fantastic.)
> 
>I'm even worried about using Lyson Print Guard still - has 
>anyone had bad experience with that affecting the prints furhter 
>down the line?
> 
> Nick

----- Original Message -----

From: "nick90290" <NickBrandt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG or wait for Mis UltraTone


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst
Dinkla"
> <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
>
> > And are there any fading differences of the inks between the
two
> > papers?
> >
> > Ernst
>
> Hi Ernst
>
> You know, I wish I could answer that question because I would
love to
> know too. Unfortunately, at the time, I did not keep a record
of
> which
> prints were done on the Hahnemule German Etching and which were
done
> on the Lyson Standard Fine Art (as at that time I had been told
they
> were the exact one and same paper). Additionally, many of the
photos
> were done on Lumijet Classic Velour, which is also supposed to
be
> "identical".
>
> I will tell you, however, that the worst shifts to green were
on
> Concord Rag, which I stopped using some time ago.
>
> Nick

There are still production batch differences in HM's papers so it
will not be easy to detect what could be a different coating or a
different batch.
Lyson is getting their pigment ink varieties ready, I hope these
discussions are a thing of the past. Not that I will become a
Lyson customer again
after the experience and the service I got 3 years ago.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst Dinkla" 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "nick90290" <NickBrandt@a...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG or wait for Mis UltraTone
> 
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst
> Dinkla"
> > <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> >
> Lyson is getting their pigment ink varieties ready, I hope these
> discussions are a thing of the past. Not that I will become a
> Lyson customer again after the experience and the service I got 3 
years ago.
> 
> Ernst

Ernst - 

And then my experience has been, when I called them repeatedly about 
my problem, is that they say they've practically never had anyone
call 
them about their SG inks shifting in tone. And yet the briefest of 
calls around and posting on a couple of forum websites elicited 
similar experiences to mine. 
When MIS have got their inks working so well, my opinion is why even 
bother with Lyson. I would imagine the reason they're moving into 
pigment inks is because they realise more and more people know that 
dyes are a liability (something it took me way too long to realize, 
but then I believed them when they have repeatedly told me that the
SG 
inks have 65-75 years longevity.)

Nick

..

nick90290 wrote:

>
>And then my experience has been, when I called them repeatedly about 
>my problem, is that they say they've practically never had anyone
>call 
>them about their SG inks shifting in tone.
>
Nick, one thing I hate in politics or art is someone who tells only part 
of the story...

1)    Correct me if I am mistaken, but after you  reported these 
problems to Lyson, did they or did they not eventually send you  media 
to help you recoup some of the costs?

2)    Have you sent Lyson any of these "returned & shifted" prints, so 
they can try and figure out what had happened? Did you even send them 
any of the cartridges so they could see if the inks themselves had been 
subjected to some kind of environmental or temperature extremes  by the 
vendor, shipper, or distributor...?

It would seem to me the responsible thing to do would be to have done 
the preceding..  As an example, when we started dealing with EEM/EAM 
differences, I went to my contacts at EPSON and gave them the 
opportunity to address it.. People even sent them samples... That's the 
responsible path..
  

> And yet the briefest of 
>calls around and posting on a couple of forum websites elicited 
>similar experiences to mine. 
>
Let's see, I run the single biggest EPSON printer forum, and yours is 
the ONLY reported case of a color shift in these inks that I am aware 
of  that is NOT directly attributable to metamerism.. You, yourself, I 
believe, noted some of the prints were done on German Etching I 
believe..  But you KNOW that paper's coating will cause enhanced 
metamerism.. That's why Lyson tells people to use the Standard Fine Art 
paper instead to reduce metamerism.... The coating is tweaked to avoid 
that problem..

Then there's the small matter of this list and your report being the 
ONLY documented one of this green shift..  Yes, there have been reports 
of greenish metamerism on certain media.. But if you cannot produce 
these supposed green prints and show it isn't simple metamerism, you are 
just trying to build yourself a soapbox..  I was at the heart of those 
researching the "orange shift" and we caught hell over on the Leben list 
even with strict reporting and reproducibility.  They would have handed 
you your head for this kind of  irresponsible commentary.. (not to 
mention that Lyson admits to the metamerism on certain papers, while for 
a long time EPSON completely denied the existence of an "orange shift.")

Without presenting proof, you sound like McCarthy and his damn "I have 
here a list of Communists at the State Department..."  If you recall, 
all he had was a sheaf of blank papers...  

I can understand you being pissed off at the metamerism, but IMHO it's 
irresponsible for any printer not to check for basic metamerism before 
putting prints up for sale..

>When MIS have got their inks working so well, my opinion is why even 
>bother with Lyson. I would imagine the reason they're moving into 
>pigment inks is because they realise more and more people know that 
>dyes are a liability (something it took me way too long to realize, 
>but then I believed them when they have repeatedly told me that the
>SG 
>inks have 65-75 years longevity.)
>  
>
Funny, I've had NO green shifts other than the metameric issues with 
certain media I noted earlier.. BUT, I checked my prints under Tungsten 
and Daylight BEFORE releasing them..  In those cases, I simply reprinted 
the final prints on a different media..

Dyes and inks are complementary products..  Each has their own strengths 
and weaknesses..

All in all you sound like a pissed off man with an axe to grind..  I 
deal with enough people like that in politics, I expect better of 
 people engaged in "professional" print production..  As far as I am 
personally concerned, you have the same credibility I would have given 
to that OTHER McCarthy, not Eugene, but Charlie McCarthy... That is... 
very little, at the moment..

HOWEVER, I am more than willing to listen to your side of this, should 
you forthrightly and completely answer the questions I posed above.. 
 I'm not taking sides here, but I don't enjoy listening to ranting 
without the audience being given the complete story...
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One important thing Nick.. I take issue with the way you characterize 
Lyson..  Every problem I have ever had with any product from them they 
have immediately addressed to my complete satisfaction and more (as they 
have for other consumers).. Just as MIS has...

EPSON blew it on the "orange shift" for a long while.. Some chose to 
characterize EPSON as "bad guys" for that..  I thought that was wrong 
then, and I think your tone on Lyson is similarly wrong now..  Just as I 
had issues with some attacking the Ultratones early on and calling them 
faulty - causing clogs - BEFORE they were sure that was the cause... As 
it turned out, it was the pigments and carrier reacting badly to 
residual dyes in the printer(s) in question, NOT the inkset in and of 
itself..

Sometimes products have unexpected problems.. That isn't an indictment 
of that company...  How they react to rectify the problem or compensate 
consumers  is often more important..  As a user/consumer, 
professionalism comes in trying to fully identify the cause BEFORE 
jumping to conclusions and unfairly lambasting ANY company...

I still use EPSON products, I still use Lyson products, AND I use MIS 
products as well..    They are all tools meant for the right job.  No 
product will ever fit every need for every user.. Try and keep that in 
mind..

Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Keith-

In response to your reply -

1) Lyson sent me some new 4oz bottles of the SG inks, and 20 sheets 
of Fine Art paper. Whoop de doo. I've printed close to a thousand 
prints prior to that. 

2) Of course I sent Lyson samples of prints - green-shifted ones, 6 
months old, and fresh, still-sepia ones printed that day as
comparison 
reference. They didn't ask for any inks back.  

3) Many of the prints that shifted green were done on Lyson Standard 
Fine Art paper, and sprayed with Lyson Print Guard.

4) You jump the gun - of course I comprehend the difference between 
metamerism and an OVERALL across-the-board shift to green in the 
prints. It is the latter I'm referring to. Yes, you get metamerism 
with SG in a way you never do with MIS pigments, but that was always 
evident from the outset. Prints turning green was
not. 
Nor was it in my two friends' prints who have also seen their prints 
turn green with SG inks.

5) Now it's you who are jumping the gun again, presuming stuff with
an 
angry, vaguely abusive rant before hearing the complete story.
Perhaps you should practice what you preach. 

The point is I am NOT pissed off at metamerism, but I am pissed off
at my prints turning green. And I did present proof. I have dozens of 
prints as proof. I don't want to build a soapbox, but I do consider 
Lyson to be irresponsible in their marketing of these inks, and I am 
far from alone in this opinion.

And if you had checked my first e-mails on the subject, not just the 
brief exchanges with Ernst, you would have found what I consider to
be the full picture you say you want to hear.

Nick

.................

SG inks do shift. The same is happening to me and with prints that 
have not been printed long ago ( 4 months). And yes they shift to 
green.
SG have metamerism. Much less than epson inks but still visible 
metamerism. I went to this option because I like gloss or pearl 
papers. I also think that metamerism is acceptable if it is not so 
bad but that green shift in such a short time is not.

I am waiting to the new piezo to se if I go this way. I tried vm 
mis ... no metamerism but I just don't like matte paper. I also 
might try the new mis inksets.

Regards

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "cristianbaitg" 
<cristianbaitg@h...> wrote:
> SG inks do shift. The same is happening to me and with prints that 
> have not been printed long ago ( 4 months). And yes they shift to 
> green.
> SG have metamerism. Much less than epson inks but still visible 
> metamerism. I went to this option because I like gloss or pearl 
> papers. I also think that metamerism is acceptable if it is not so 
> bad but that green shift in such a short time is not.
> 
> I am waiting to the new piezo to se if I go this way. I tried vm 
> mis ... no metamerism but I just don't like matte paper. I also 
> might try the new mis inksets.
> 
> Regards

Hi Christian(?)

Sorry to hear you've had the same problem as I (and others) have had, 
but thank you for endorsing my viewpoint. I just wonder if they reach 
a certain point of green-ness and then stop...or just keep on going 
and going and going.......

Nick

........

nick90290 wrote:

>2) Of course I sent Lyson samples of prints - green-shifted ones, 6 
>months old, and fresh, still-sepia ones printed that day as
>comparison 
>reference. They didn't ask for any inks back.  
>  
>
Well, you did the right thing.. Strange...

>3) Many of the prints that shifted green were done on Lyson Standard 
>Fine Art paper, and sprayed with Lyson Print Guard.
>  
>
OK

>4) You jump the gun - of course I comprehend the difference between 
>metamerism and an OVERALL across-the-board shift to green in the 
>prints. It is the latter I'm referring to. Yes, you get metamerism 
>with SG in a way you never do with MIS pigments, but that was always 
>evident from the outset. Prints turning green was
>not. 
>Nor was it in my two friends' prints who have also seen their prints 
>turn green with SG inks.
>  
>
I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't tel the difference.. I just 
wanted to know the whole story..

>5) Now it's you who are jumping the gun again, presuming stuff with
>an 
>angry, vaguely abusive rant before hearing the complete story.
>Perhaps you should practice what you preach. 
>  
>
Perhaps... Now that I know you sent samples to Lyson I'd have to say 
both you and Lyson responded as well as you might to the problem.. 
However, comments attacking the company are IMHO misplaced and unfair. 
 As unfair as those who wanted to "make EPSON pay" for the "orange shift."
  

>The point is I am NOT pissed off at metamerism, but I am pissed off
>at my prints turning green. And I did present proof. I have dozens of 
>prints as proof. I don't want to build a soapbox, but I do consider 
>Lyson to be irresponsible in their marketing of these inks, and I am 
>far from alone in this opinion.
>  
>
OK, so with three reports on lists of over 5,000 members aggregate, I'd 
say this is not a huge issue.. It may be a significant impact on you 
personally but it isn't as if the printer blows up and injures someone.. 
 In a case like that, if three printers blew up, ok, I'd say it was 
serious.  But,  to show data that three people out of the many users of 
these inks have had problems and therefore the marketing of the inks as 
having long-life is irresponsible is a huge inferential leap..

I'd certainly be interested in seeing two things:

1)    Whether the lot numbers of the inks were the same, or if you and 
your friends got inks via the same vendor or distributor...  (It may 
well have been a case of inks subjected to extremes BEFORE you received 
them)

2)    If you and your two friends live in similar atmospheric areas... 
 It could well be something atmospheric particular to your locations..

Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Keith

Actually, it's been more like a whopping six-eight(!) people 
specifically mentioning SG problems, which is obviously still very 
low, but I think there are two other reasons for this - 1) very few 
people use SG inks any more - most of the people on this website are 
smart and knew to use pigment inks from early on, and 2), and I've 
heard this from quite a few incredibly experienced long-term inkjet 
users not directly through this forum, they didn't believe Lyson's 
claims. "A load of BS" was the most oft-used quote about Lyson's 
claims for SG longevity. My sales guy at Inkjet Art said sales for SG 
have plummeted in the last eight months and everyone's ordering MIS. 
Of course, it could also be because the MIS inks are so much cheaper 
as well.

You wrote - 

> I'd certainly be interested in seeing two things:
> 
> 1)    Whether the lot numbers of the inks were the same, or if you 
and your friends got inks via the same vendor or distributor...  (It 
may well have been a case of inks subjected to extremes BEFORE you 
received them)

We checked, and these were all different batches of inks over the 
course of a year and a half - in cartridge form and in bottle form.
> 
> 2)    If you and your two friends live in similar atmospheric 
areas... 
>  It could well be something atmospheric particular to your 
locations..
> 

Yes, it was one of the first things we considered, and actually we
all 
live in Mediterranean dry Southern California with very low humidity. 

So, in closing, all the possible areas have been covered. At the end 
of the day, you have to come down to the fact that the SG inks are 
dyes, with all attendant problems, and pigment is the only way to go. 
(Although 4 months for a green shift is crazy.)

Nick

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