Digital BW, The Print

All,

IÕve been working with a demo of the new StudioPrint v10 that ErgoSoft rece=
ntly made 
available.  In case you didnÕt already know it is a RIP solution, designed =
for users of 
wide format printers and works on a whole fleet of devices.  Among the Epso=
n models 
it supports the 3000 and up, including the newer 7600, 9600 and 10600. It p=
rovides 
monochromatic as well as color RIP functionality, and has built-in profilin=
g and ICC 
generation features.  Monochromatic profiling is, to my knowledge, not ICC =

compliant, so soft proofing is not directly available in Photoshop. StudioP=
rint runs 
only on Windows machines. See AmadouÕs previous post for further details on=
 how it 
works. Following is a summary of what IÕve experienced so far on my Epson 7=
000 and 
9000 printers. I will include a link to my site at the bottom of this post =
with close-ups 
of scans of output and some densitometric info.  Additionally IÕve sent the=
se to 
Antonis for inclusion in the Files section.

The first thing you have to do is define and linearize your inkset. I strug=
gled a little 
with some things that were left out of the rather brief introductory manual=
, such as 
what size paper to insert for the grayscale printouts, and how many patches=
 to 
choose (10, 20 or 40).  After working for a couple hours with 20 I discover=
ed that 40 
is the choice that provides best accuracy and that you need to print the ra=
mps on 24Ó 
wide paper.  Also, though SP claims to be able to utilize the scan function=
 of the 
EyeOne Photo to provide rapid reads of the patches, I kept getting Òwrong n=
umber of 
patchesÓ errors and had to do each one individually.  This only took a few =
minutes, 
however.  Additionally it took me some time to comprehend the way in which =
the 
Print Environments are created and how the density readouts are incorporate=
d.  This 
may all be detailed in the full blown manual, for which a pdf is included, =
but I only 
consulted it in a piecemeal fashion so donÕt really know that yet.  However=
 from what 
I did read, I felt the manual could stand some improvement. After getting m=
y head 
around the process, I was impressed with the way ErgoSoft has made it possi=
ble to 
create the individual Print Environments out of each set of linearizations =
per printer, 
essentially copying them from previous PEÕs. As others have mentioned you c=
an 
mount up any inks you want and put them in any position, SP enables you to =

selectively turn colors on and off as you choose.  This means variable and =
split toning 
are possible. Also there are nice features such as drag-and-drop, the abili=
ty to group 
different images and the ability to tile, position, mirror and rotate image=
s in the 
layout, which are typical of RIPs, but were great to see included.  BTW, th=
is version 
does not offer Postscript, which is apparently why the price is reasonably =
affordable 
as RIPÕs go.

IÕve worked for a couple of years with the Cone ProRIP, and was most concer=
ned with 
how SP compares to that, since the ProRIP has been dead-ended by IJM. The 
proprietary dither on the ProRIP has so far been the best IÕve seen for ren=
dering detail 
in carbon prints and the big question in my mind was whether SP could measu=
re up.  
After trying out the Smart Diffusion dither first with less than impressive=
 results, I 
linearized with the Stochastic option and found it produced much better res=
olution of 
detail and virtually dotless printing. The ProRIPÕs dither has a way of eff=
ectively 
sharpening up image detail while delivering all levels from 0 to 100% gray =
extremely 
well.  Up close the dots have a linear arrangement, like tightly packed row=
s of 
soldiers. SPÕs Stochastic dither has a more random look, like the Epson dri=
vers, and 
very finely arranged.  This created a smoother look to the image when loupe=
d, with 
more apparent graduations of gray, not unlike the comparison of grain in sl=
ow and 
fast silver emulsions. The detail in the SP prints was almost as sharp as t=
hat of the 
ProRIP, but this difference was really only visible under a loupe and may b=
e the result 
of the ProRIPÕs sharpening effect.  At a distance of 12Ó both prints have e=
ssentially the 
same resolution. I have to say I quite like the smooth look of the StudioPr=
int images. I 
considered this issue of dither to be make-or-break for SPÉ

One thing you cannot control in ErgoSoftÕs product, nor in the ProRIP for t=
hat matter, 
is how the inks are partitioned.  This doesnÕt seem to be problematic so fa=
r in 
comparing the output of the two, but it is something the tweak-inclined mig=
ht miss.  
One important difference with SP is that it appears to linearize to a gamma=
 that is 
close to monitor gamma, which means your images will initially print very l=
ight and 
with flat midtones as compared to prints from the ProRIP or the Piezo plug-=
in.  I got 
an exact match from my monitor when I went into Color Settings, selected Cu=
stom 
Dot Gain and left the curve in itÕs default state.  This means that straigh=
t prints of 
legacy images in SP will all be way off. A workaround for this is possible,=
 however, 
using the Dot Gain feature in StudioPrintÕs profile generation phase.  By a=
dding Gain 
you effective raise the gamma of the profile, although how much you add can=
 only be 
established through trial and error tests. Cone recommends working with 15-=
20%, 
but I found 20% wasnÕt enough to darken the midtones sufficiently.  One thi=
ng IÕm 
worried about is compression of the darkest levels of the grayscale as I ra=
ise gamma, 
and I think IÕm beginning to see it in some of my prints.  Some of the dens=
itometer 
readings support this as well and there may be a tradeoff at work here.  IÕ=
m 
wondering if StudioPrint needs an adjustable Dot Gain feature, where the us=
er could 
manipulate specific portions of the DG curve, like in Photoshop, instead of=
 just 
specifying one amount overall.  This may mean to get the best separation on=
e would 
have to go back to his scans and redo the curves, then print with less or n=
o Dot Gain 
added in SP.  I have to test further on thisÉ

This is where IÕm at with this at the moment, and will post further results=
 as they are 
ready.  Below is a link to some scans, you can compare the results of the t=
wo RIPs and 
see some density charts showing the effects of adding Dot Gain in SP. I hop=
e this will 
be of some interest to those of you looking at wide format solutions...

http://cirrus-digital.com/RIP.html

Cheers,
Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

Phil,

thanks for taking the time to give us your initial view on StudioPrint. 
I have uploaded your test files in a newly created folder for StudioPrint (in our 
Files section at the group home page). Within that folder is another one with 
your name marked with  today's date.


Antonis

On 6/15/03 7:24 PM, "Phil Bard" <phil@...> wrote:

> One thing you cannot control in ErgoSoft product, nor in the ProRIP for that >
matter, is how the inks are partitioned.

So what you are saying is that Studio print doesn't allow you determine
which channels are used at which part in the grayscale?

This seems like an absolutely critical function for flexibility.  I don't
begin to use standard loadings in my machines.  This would also be
incredibly limiting for those interested in toned solutions such as the MIS
Ultratones or VM inkset.

Just trying to clarify to make sure that I knew what you meant by this
comment.

Robert

Robert,

> > One thing you cannot control in ErgoSoft product, nor in the ProRIP for that >
> matter, is how the inks are partitioned.
> 
> So what you are saying is that Studio print doesn't allow you determine
> which channels are used at which part in the grayscale?
> 

You specify which ink, along with its maximum density, for each position, there is not 
restriction as to order.  Then you turn on or off positions before you linearize to 
control what is printing.  I assume SP computes the mix internally, and so far with the 
PT WN and PT Sel sets the prints I'm getting are beautiful.

You can have multiples of the same ink, as in the PiezoTones, SP seems to handle 
them in the same way as the ProRIP.  I think Bill Bergh confirmed on the Pro list it 
alternates between multiples. For all intents and purposes you could load vegetable 
dyes into your printer and linearize...

Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

On 6/16/03 1:36 PM, "Phil Bard" <phil@...> wrote:

> I assume SP computes the mix internally, and so far with the
> PT WN and PT Sel sets the prints I'm getting are beautiful.

But this approach wouldn't work for using a toner...correct?
 
> You can have multiples of the same ink, as in the PiezoTones, SP seems to
> handle 
> them in the same way as the ProRIP.

My understanding was that the proRIP did not handle multiples this way...it
used all of them at the same time...I believe that Bill told me this at one
point.  Imageprint alternates between multiples and this is an inferior
approach with respect to hiding entry of inks and dealing with printer
issues.

What printer are using studio print with...your 7000?

It sounds like as long as you use a tonerless solution (e.g., piezotones)
this may be a good product...but if you want to use variable toning within a
single inkset...its probably not the best way to go...because you don't have
control over partitioning.

Is there also no way to blend between profiles?

Robert

Robert,

First of all, this product is not the equivalent of IJC/OPM.  There is no feature for 
controlling the how the partitions overlap that I'm aware or.  Nobody claims that as far as 
I know.  There are many features I haven't explored yet, and there may be some 
capability there. I'm not particularly interested in dueling here, perhaps you should get 
yourself a demo and try it out, it's only $4.95 for shipping...

> > I assume SP computes the mix internally, and so far with the
> > PT WN and PT Sel sets the prints I'm getting are beautiful.
> 
> But this approach wouldn't work for using a toner...correct?

I'm not sure about that yet. You can definitely do split toning, and there may be a way to 
control the percentages of inks in the profiles, but I haven't discovered it yet.


> My understanding was that the proRIP did not handle multiples this way...it
> used all of them at the same time...I believe that Bill told me this at one
> point.  Imageprint alternates between multiples and this is an inferior
> approach with respect to hiding entry of inks and dealing with printer
> issues.
> 

Jon once stated that it alternated.  In any event it uses ink from those positions at equal 
rates. Perhaps this is a question for him...

> What printer are using studio print with...your 7000?
> 

7000 and 9000. No limits on paper sizes, you can mix images on layouts, resize by 
dragging corner handles, apply brightness, contrast and loaded curves separately to 
each one.  Lots of RIP-style bells and whistles, the interface is quite superb.

Also, as expected, it linearized both my printers to the exact same output.  Prints from 
either are identical as far as I can see, inkset variances aside.


> Is there also no way to blend between profiles?
> 

Haven't run across that yet.  I'm still trying to figure out how to print my ProRIP legacy 
files. 

Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

On 6/16/03 2:07 PM, "Phil Bard" <phil@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> First of all, this product is not the equivalent of IJC/OPM.  There is no
> feature for 
> controlling the how the partitions overlap that I'm aware or.  Nobody claims
> that as far as 
> I know.  There are many features I haven't explored yet, and there may be some
> capability there. I'm not particularly interested in dueling here, perhaps you
> should get 
> yourself a demo and try it out, it's only $4.95 for shipping...

No windows boxes here.  I'm just trying to get a feel for what the product
can and can't do.  It essentially sounds like imageprint...but with the
capability of doing your own profiles instead of having colorbyte do them
for you.  It is considerably more limited than imageprint, however, with
respect to platform (no Mac support) and printers.

> 
>>> I assume SP computes the mix internally, and so far with the
>>> PT WN and PT Sel sets the prints I'm getting are beautiful.
>> 
>> But this approach wouldn't work for using a toner...correct?
> 
> I'm not sure about that yet. You can definitely do split toning, and there may
> be a way to 
> control the percentages of inks in the profiles, but I haven't discovered it
> yet.
> 
Keep us posted.
 
Robert

> It sounds like as long as you use a tonerless solution (e.g., piezotones)
> this may be a good product...but if you want to use variable toning within a
> single inkset...its probably not the best way to go...because you don't have
> control over partitioning.

You can control, what we call, the crossovers which allows you to define where a 
particular inks begins to cut in.  I suspect that this is what you are calling 
particianing.  I am definitely not the one to describe such a process 
but it is completely open to your personal interpretation.

And yes, this opens up split toning on a device such as the 7600.  By loading, let's 
say, Museum Black plus the highlight and mids from two other sets, they may be 
blended throughout the scale offerring a whole new level in artistic interpretation.  An 
obvious scenario to many traditional photographers would be a Platinum-process 
emualtion using a selenium or cool neutral set plus a carbon sepia or warm neutral 
set, blending the cool highlights into the warm three quarter tones.  It's advanced but 
within the software's capabilities.

Plus, you have a single printer that can print three or more different color stories.

> Is there also no way to blend between profiles?

Let me say that we, or better yet you, can blend color-sets.

It helps tremendously not to think of what we do as being profile-centric.  A profile is 
only a characterization of a device and media's three dimensional color space.  What 
we are talking about here is not a three dimensional color space, therefor we aren't 
generating and applying profiles to control the process.  All StudioPrint is doing is 
bringing the printer to a known, quantifiable and reproducable state while limiting 
the inks to the appropriate levels on a per channel basis optimizing image quality.

This is why what we do can not be softproofed or viewed in Photoshop.  We aren't 
working in RGB which Photoshop is (softproof output to monitor).

I hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,

Robert
-- 
Robert Eversole
President
ErgoSoft U. S. LLC
                       
reversole@...
T     703.464.0876
F     703.783.6201
IM   ergosoft1

On 6/16/03 2:47 PM, "roberteversole" <ergosoftus@...> wrote:

>> It sounds like as long as you use a tonerless solution (e.g., piezotones)
>> this may be a good product...but if you want to use variable toning within a
>> single inkset...its probably not the best way to go...because you don't have
>> control over partitioning.
> 
> You can control, what we call, the crossovers which allows you to define where
> a 
> particular inks begins to cut in.  I suspect that this is what you are calling
> particianing.  I am definitely not the one to describe such a process
> but it is completely open to your personal interpretation.

Are the shapes of the curves also configurable...or these predefined?
 
> And yes, this opens up split toning on a device such as the 7600.  By loading,
> let's 
> say, Museum Black plus the highlight and mids from two other sets, they may be
> blended throughout the scale offerring a whole new level in artistic
> interpretation. 

Right, similar to what you can do with the blender in IJC or the R9
software.  This is definitely a limitation of Imageprint...unless you are
using the Epson OEM inks in Ultrachrome Epson printer.
> 

That's very helpful, Robert, thanks.

Robert Morrison

> Are the shapes of the curves also configurable...or these predefined?

Predefined for most, configurable for the sadisitic.

Don't take that the wrong way.  I went to Corcoran School of Fine Art in Washington 
DC so I have a pretty personal take on The Artist having spent most of my life either 
as an artist, wanting to be an artist, promoting other artists, selling to artists and now 
helping artist expand their craft.

Generating your owns curves it sadistic but the only way to ensure that your art is 
yours and not out-of-the-box stuff.

On 6/16/03 3:19 PM, "roberteversole" <ergosoftus@...> wrote:

>> Are the shapes of the curves also configurable...or these predefined?
> 
> Predefined for most, configurable for the sadisitic.
> 
> Don't take that the wrong way.  I went to Corcoran School of Fine Art in
> Washington 
> DC so I have a pretty personal take on The Artist having spent most of my life
> either 
> as an artist, wanting to be an artist, promoting other artists, selling to
> artists and now 
> helping artist expand their craft.
> 
> Generating your owns curves it sadistic but the only way to ensure that your
> art is 
> yours and not out-of-the-box stuff.
> 
I understand that all too well, I've generated my own curves for Ink Jet
Control...so realize that it is work...but it also affords a lot of other
possibilities as well.

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert 
Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 6/16/03 3:19 PM, "roberteversole" <ergosoftus@e...> wrote:
> 
> >> Are the shapes of the curves also configurable...or these 
predefined?
> > 
> > Predefined for most, configurable for the sadisitic.
> > 
> > Don't take that the wrong way.  I went to Corcoran School of 
Fine Art in
> > Washington 
> > DC so I have a pretty personal take on The Artist having 
spent most of my life
> > either 
> > as an artist, wanting to be an artist, promoting other artists, 
selling to
> > artists and now 
> > helping artist expand their craft.
> > 
> > Generating your owns curves it sadistic but the only way to 
ensure that your
> > art is 
> > yours and not out-of-the-box stuff.
> > 
> I understand that all too well, I've generated my own curves for 
Ink Jet
> Control...so realize that it is work...but it also affords a lot of 
other
> possibilities as well.
> 
> Robert

Robert & Robert,

With QuadToneRIP you get the best of both worlds:  automatic
creation of curves to transition through multiple gray inks,
but complete manual control for toner inks where you can
put your own "personal touch" into split toning or whatever
you like.

Roy

On 6/16/03 5:45 PM, "Roy Harrington" <roy@...> wrote:


> 
> Robert & Robert,
> 
> With QuadToneRIP you get the best of both worlds:  automatic
> creation of curves to transition through multiple gray inks,
> but complete manual control for toner inks where you can
> put your own "personal touch" into split toning or whatever
> you like.
> 
> Roy

But, correct me if I'm wrong, without single channel control.  You are
limited to a CYMK approach?...meaning if I wanted six (or seven) different
inks or toners in the printer I wouldn't be able to control them
individually, because, for example, cyan and photo cyan channels would be
coupled?

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert 
Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 6/16/03 5:45 PM, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Robert & Robert,
> > 
> > With QuadToneRIP you get the best of both worlds:  
automatic
> > creation of curves to transition through multiple gray inks,
> > but complete manual control for toner inks where you can
> > put your own "personal touch" into split toning or whatever
> > you like.
> > 
> > Roy
> 
> But, correct me if I'm wrong, without single channel control.  
You are
> limited to a CYMK approach?...meaning if I wanted six (or 
seven) different
> inks or toners in the printer I wouldn't be able to control them
> individually, because, for example, cyan and photo cyan 
channels would be
> coupled?
> 
> Robert

Yes, the 1.1 version that I think you tried was limited to
CMYK, but the new 2.0 version controls 4,6, or 7 inks and
uses full 16bit curves.  I think the best thing is that I've
got automatic partitioning that works very well -- no need 
to work on going from light grays to dark grays.  You do
get to shape the final overall curve if you like though.

I did post about it a couple of weeks ago, but you may have 
missed it.  I'm still doing little tweaks but the guts works
just fine.

See QuadToneRIP  info at
www.harrington.com

Roy

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 5:37 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: StudioPrint Evaluation


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert
> Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> > On 6/16/03 5:45 PM, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Robert & Robert,
> > >
> > > With QuadToneRIP you get the best of both worlds:
> automatic
> > > creation of curves to transition through multiple gray
inks,
> > > but complete manual control for toner inks where you can
> > > put your own "personal touch" into split toning or whatever
> > > you like.
> > >
> > > Roy
> >
> > But, correct me if I'm wrong, without single channel control.
> You are
> > limited to a CYMK approach?...meaning if I wanted six (or
> seven) different
> > inks or toners in the printer I wouldn't be able to control
them
> > individually, because, for example, cyan and photo cyan
> channels would be
> > coupled?
> >
> > Robert
>
> Yes, the 1.1 version that I think you tried was limited to
> CMYK, but the new 2.0 version controls 4,6, or 7 inks and
> uses full 16bit curves.  I think the best thing is that I've
> got automatic partitioning that works very well -- no need
> to work on going from light grays to dark grays.  You do
> get to shape the final overall curve if you like though.
>
> I did post about it a couple of weeks ago, but you may have
> missed it.  I'm still doing little tweaks but the guts works
> just fine.
>
> See QuadToneRIP  info at
> www.harrington.com
>
> Roy

Roy,

Slowly I'm getting convinced that your solution may be a better
answer to my needs then me trying to educate the Wasatch SoftRip.
There's no support on this issue from Wasatchinc. The 9000 is
loaded with Ultratone VM, this is a PC shop with a SpectroCam and
an old Gretag D142-3 that could be ressurected. I could go for
Linux but I also have a chance to get a G4 with OS X cheap.

OS X has the advantage that it also will allow me to print with
Colour Management + Gimp-print to the other 9000 still loaded
with Generations 4 inks. I wouldn't like to have a completely new
software setup for this as editing will be done on the PC.
Photoshop Elements is limited to 8 bits in loading so not the
best choice for a B&W output program. Are there OS X image
(editing) programs with 16 bit support throughout that use the
Colorsync, doesn't have to be anything advanced though a Qimage
alike program would be very nice.

On Linux the choice would be the Gimp. It will be sufficient for
B&W 16 bit but doesn't have colourmanagement. There's a plugin as
I understand it that should give it some CM but I have no
knowledge of the quality. I did read that the Quad Tone Rip has
been used on Debian but not on Suse.

Ernst

Ernst,

you can set up the linux machine as a print server and print to it
directly from Photoshop on yur own PC. That way you don't need any
additional licenses, and you can print comfortably from an environment
you know well.

On linux you need to install the Samba file and print services to share
your printer, while In windows you install the free Adobe Postscript
drivers and point them to the shared Linux printer and its associated
PPD.

It's not perfect, I still have to enter some specific driver settings on
the Linux machine, as it seems to ignore them if I set them in the PPD.
But once you set the settings in Linux they stay that way until you
change them again. Different sets of settings can be saved, so
essentially you would only have to run a single command to change to any
predefined set of settings. 

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ernst Dinkla [mailto:E.Dinkla@...] 
> Sent: 17. juni 2003 10:21
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: StudioPrint Evaluation
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 5:37 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: StudioPrint Evaluation
> 
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert 
> Morrison 
> > <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> > > On 6/16/03 5:45 PM, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Robert & Robert,
> > > >
> > > > With QuadToneRIP you get the best of both worlds:
> > automatic
> > > > creation of curves to transition through multiple gray
> inks,
> > > > but complete manual control for toner inks where you 
> can put your 
> > > > own "personal touch" into split toning or whatever you like.
> > > >
> > > > Roy
> > >
> > > But, correct me if I'm wrong, without single channel control.
> > You are
> > > limited to a CYMK approach?...meaning if I wanted six (or
> > seven) different
> > > inks or toners in the printer I wouldn't be able to control
> them
> > > individually, because, for example, cyan and photo cyan
> > channels would be
> > > coupled?
> > >
> > > Robert
> >
> > Yes, the 1.1 version that I think you tried was limited to 
> CMYK, but 
> > the new 2.0 version controls 4,6, or 7 inks and uses full 16bit 
> > curves.  I think the best thing is that I've got automatic 
> > partitioning that works very well -- no need to work on going from 
> > light grays to dark grays.  You do get to shape the final overall 
> > curve if you like though.
> >
> > I did post about it a couple of weeks ago, but you may have 
> missed it.  
> > I'm still doing little tweaks but the guts works just fine.
> >
> > See QuadToneRIP  info at
> > www.harrington.com
> >
> > Roy
> 
> Roy,
> 
> Slowly I'm getting convinced that your solution may be a 
> better answer to my needs then me trying to educate the 
> Wasatch SoftRip. There's no support on this issue from 
> Wasatchinc. The 9000 is loaded with Ultratone VM, this is a 
> PC shop with a SpectroCam and an old Gretag D142-3 that could 
> be ressurected. I could go for Linux but I also have a chance 
> to get a G4 with OS X cheap.
> 
> OS X has the advantage that it also will allow me to print 
> with Colour Management + Gimp-print to the other 9000 still 
> loaded with Generations 4 inks. I wouldn't like to have a 
> completely new software setup for this as editing will be 
> done on the PC. Photoshop Elements is limited to 8 bits in 
> loading so not the best choice for a B&W output program. Are 
> there OS X image
> (editing) programs with 16 bit support throughout that use 
> the Colorsync, doesn't have to be anything advanced though a 
> Qimage alike program would be very nice.
> 
> On Linux the choice would be the Gimp. It will be sufficient 
> for B&W 16 bit but doesn't have colourmanagement. There's a 
> plugin as I understand it that should give it some CM but I 
> have no knowledge of the quality. I did read that the Quad 
> Tone Rip has been used on Debian but not on Suse.
> 
> Ernst
> 
> 
> 
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On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 08:37 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
>>
>> But, correct me if I'm wrong, without single channel control.  You are
>> limited to a CYMK approach?...meaning if I wanted six (or seven) 
>> different
>> inks or toners in the printer I wouldn't be able to control them
>> individually, because, for example, cyan and photo cyan channels 
>> would be
>> coupled?
>>
>> Robert
>
> Yes, the 1.1 version that I think you tried was limited to
> CMYK, but the new 2.0 version controls 4,6, or 7 inks and
> uses full 16bit curves.  I think the best thing is that I've
> got automatic partitioning that works very well -- no need
> to work on going from light grays to dark grays.  You do
> get to shape the final overall curve if you like though.
>
> I did post about it a couple of weeks ago, but you may have
> missed it.  I'm still doing little tweaks but the guts works
> just fine.
>
Thanks for the clarification, I must have missed the update.  It seems 
then that only remaining difference between the Quadtone RIP and 
IJC/OPM are then the following:

1. IJC provides expected density values (AIMS) for the profile and 
allows you to enter density values and plot these to see where you are 
at.

2. IJC allows you to linearize final profiles for an algorithmic 
solution to straightening the final profile

3. IJC provides an easy way (within the program) to generate a whole 
variety of test patterns including single channel test wedges

4. OPM provides a blender so that you can simply make two profiles...a 
cool one and a warm one and then use a slider to get anywhere in 
between, instead of using separate profiles for anything.

I'm not sure whether you have actually used IJC...so some of this may 
not make much sense.

Also, can you remind us all what printers the Quadtone RIP supports? 
and whether there are any paper size restrictions, does it support roll 
paper in the wide format printers?

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert 
Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> 
> On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 08:37 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> >>
> >> But, correct me if I'm wrong, without single channel control.  
You are
> >> limited to a CYMK approach?...meaning if I wanted six (or 
seven) 
> >> different
> >> inks or toners in the printer I wouldn't be able to control 
them
> >> individually, because, for example, cyan and photo cyan 
channels 
> >> would be
> >> coupled?
> >>
> >> Robert
> >
> > Yes, the 1.1 version that I think you tried was limited to
> > CMYK, but the new 2.0 version controls 4,6, or 7 inks and
> > uses full 16bit curves.  I think the best thing is that I've
> > got automatic partitioning that works very well -- no need
> > to work on going from light grays to dark grays.  You do
> > get to shape the final overall curve if you like though.
> >
> > I did post about it a couple of weeks ago, but you may have
> > missed it.  I'm still doing little tweaks but the guts works
> > just fine.
> >
> Thanks for the clarification, I must have missed the update.  It 
seems 

Here's my post about QuadToneRIP:

I'm not much for pre-announcing things -- but I guess I've got to 
say
some about QuadToneRIP. In between a bunch of other things 
I've
managed to upgrade to a new version.

First QuadToneRIP 2.0 now has all the obvious stuff:
1) Separate control of all 4, 6, and 7 ink epson printers.
2) All curves are internally 16 bit to match the gimp-print 
internals.
3) blending of two curves for neutral--to--toned ink sets.

After working for a while with these "raw" 16-bit curves, I found 
that
partitioning at this level is very simple. So the new and exciting
thing is another program I'm calling QuadProfile. With a couple
of very straightforward calibration steps to measure the relative
densities of the various inks, all the partitioning curves are
generated automatically. This works for any set and any number
of inks. The generated curves give a monotonically increasing
density but the exact shape can be customized. Adding toner to
the gray is fairly easy but manual so far.

I'm sure this will raise lots of questions so here's a few answers:

System?
This is a Mac OS X system -- Linux if you do the port.

Printers?
Any Epson printer supported by Gimp-print is possible. I'm
figuring on all the 4-digit model numbers, and several of the
3-digit models (860,870,890,960,980). Others?

When? 
The basic QuadToneRIP code has been running for quite a 
while.
The QuadProfile system is working on my computer, but it's
currently several programs and shell scripts to connect it all
together. I've been working on putting this all in one program
and one descriptor file. I have a lot of printing that I need to
do this month, so work on this is lower priority -- sorry. If
anyone is familar with running shell scripts and the Terminal
program, a beta version with shell scripts can be used. Email 
me at
quadtone <at> harrington <dot> com

Densitometer?
It's certainly a very useful tool, but I've been able to get good
results trying a flatbed scanner for the partitioning. Contrast 
decisions can for the most part be done visually.


> then that only remaining difference between the Quadtone RIP 
and 
> IJC/OPM are then the following:
> 
> 1. IJC provides expected density values (AIMS) for the profile 
and 
> allows you to enter density values and plot these to see where 
you are 
> at.

Good idea.   I should at least provide density goals.
I don't have a fancy graphical interface, but there's much less
trial and error.

> 
> 2. IJC allows you to linearize final profiles for an algorithmic 
> solution to straightening the final profile

I've only read the documentation of IJC.  But with QuadToneRIP
you DON"T linearize individual inks -- the automatic 
partitioning works with the raw ink channels.  The final
profile can be tweaked using a Photoshop Curve if you like.
I've actually gotten great curves without resorting to this.
Builtin is a final curve gamma correction and a fine tuning
highlight versus shadow correction.

> 
> 3. IJC provides an easy way (within the program) to generate a 
whole 
> variety of test patterns including single channel test wedges

I also provide a special .psd file that allows you to print
test patterns that have each ink in a separate 21step wedge.
You can use this for any curve set .  The difference is that you 
print it from Photoshop.

> 
> 4. OPM provides a blender so that you can simply make two 
profiles...a 
> cool one and a warm one and then use a slider to get 
anywhere in 
> between, instead of using separate profiles for anything.

Got that too.  On my 7500 I've got a cold curve and a sepia
curve and print with a 85/15 blend lately.

> 
> I'm not sure whether you have actually used IJC...so some of 
this may 
> not make much sense.
> 
> Also, can you remind us all what printers the Quadtone RIP 
supports? 
> and whether there are any paper size restrictions, does it 
support roll 
> paper in the wide format printers?

I use the ordinary gimp-print interface and it does show
Roll Paper as an option but I've never used it.  The basic
print dialogues allow custom paper sizes.  I created a
17x22 and a 22x17 (horizontal) size and they are working
just fine.

As far as what printers: all the 4 digit epson printers,
plus several of the 3 digit ones.

> 
> Robert

I'm currently printing a whole show of prints for the end
of the month so I've been pretty busy  -- but everything is
being printed on my 7500 with my own custom VM-sepia mix.

One last note,  although I mentioned about shell scripts
above,  you don't need to type a single command line.
Its all editing a text file, double-clicking on scripts, and dragging
the text file onto the script window.

I've had some feedback from the last beta, so I'll be getting
a new version with more documentation asap.

Roy
www.harrington.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Daniel Staver" <daniel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: StudioPrint Evaluation


> Ernst,
>
> you can set up the linux machine as a print server and print to
it
> directly from Photoshop on yur own PC. That way you don't need
any
> additional licenses, and you can print comfortably from an
environment
> you know well.

Then it could be done from Qimage as well I think which would be
a an even better setup.

> On linux you need to install the Samba file and print services
to share
> your printer, while In windows you install the free Adobe
Postscript
> drivers and point them to the shared Linux printer and its
associated
> PPD.

Does it handle printer files up to 500 MB ? So you also have
Ghostscript or something else in between for the interpretation
of the PS files on the Linux box. It then becomes a long chain,
I'm not so keen about that. I guess part of Qimage's better
interpolation will not survive that translation either. Isn't
there a possibility to throw a raw (tiff) directly from Qimage
that the driver can handle ? Print from Qimage to a hot map or
something like that. Postscript isn't always the best way on
colour management either

> It's not perfect, I still have to enter some specific driver
settings on
> the Linux machine, as it seems to ignore them if I set them in
the PPD.
> But once you set the settings in Linux they stay that way until
you
> change them again. Different sets of settings can be saved, so
> essentially you would only have to run a single command to
change to any
> predefined set of settings.

Wonder whether my friend can add something to Roy's concept so
the whole becomes a bit more "salon faehig". Reading Roy's latest
additions it is at its core better than anything else. But Roy's
time will be limited.

Ernst

> Then it could be done from Qimage as well I think which would 
> be a an even better setup.

Yes, any application that can print from windows would do fine.

> Does it handle printer files up to 500 MB ?

I don't think the size of the print matters - I've printed 300-400mb
files from Photoshop to QTR, but it's very slow compared to printing
locally with the Epson driver. This is partly because I'm running my
Linux server inside a virtual PC on my Windows computer, which is much
slower than a real PC.

> So you also have 
> Ghostscript or something else in between for the 
> interpretation of the PS files on the Linux box.

I think all printing with CUPS is handled by Ghostscript regardless of
where the input is coming from or what type of file you're printing, but
I may be wrong.

> It then 
> becomes a long chain, I'm not so keen about that. I guess 
> part of Qimage's better interpolation will not survive that 
> translation either. Isn't there a possibility to throw a raw 
> (tiff) directly from Qimage that the driver can handle ? 
> Print from Qimage to a hot map or something like that. 

You certainly could set up a Perl script or something that continously
checked a folder for incoming files and processed them once they
arrived, that's easy. The question is how do you want them to be
processed?

> Postscript isn't always the best way on colour management either

In this case I think that's uncharted territory. I haven't read about
anyone who specifically tested printing from a color-managed application
in Windows to CUPS on Linux.

Since you mention color management, are you thinking about using this as
a color RIP? or are you talking about quadtone profiling? If you were to
use QTR I would assume you'd want to switch off all color management and
leave that to the QTR curves/profiles?

> Wonder whether my friend can add something to Roy's concept 
> so the whole becomes a bit more "salon faehig". Reading Roy's 
> latest additions it is at its core better than anything else. 
> But Roy's time will be limited.

Agreed, what's needed is usability, ease-of-use and interface
improvements, other than that it's got pretty much everything we want.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Daniel, you wrote:


> > Does it handle printer files up to 500 MB ?
>
> I don't think the size of the print matters - I've printed
300-400mb
> files from Photoshop to QTR, but it's very slow compared to
printing
> locally with the Epson driver. This is partly because I'm
running my
> Linux server inside a virtual PC on my Windows computer, which
is much
> slower than a real PC.

I've had my share of bad luck with Epson 9000 drivers on 2000 and
XP, the longer the chain, the more spooling done in between makes
the chance that there is something printed less and less. The RIP
being the exception as Windows doesn't get a chance to interfere
in that setup.

> > It then
> > becomes a long chain, I'm not so keen about that. I guess
> > part of Qimage's better interpolation will not survive that
> > translation either. Isn't there a possibility to throw a raw
> > (tiff) directly from Qimage that the driver can handle ?
> > Print from Qimage to a hot map or something like that.
>
> You certainly could set up a Perl script or something that
continously
> checked a folder for incoming files and processed them once
they
> arrived, that's easy. The question is how do you want them to
be
> processed?

The RIP that I have can tag the hot map to a certain printer
and/or printer setting.

> > Postscript isn't always the best way on colour management
either
>
> In this case I think that's uncharted territory. I haven't read
about
> anyone who specifically tested printing from a color-managed
application
> in Windows to CUPS on Linux.
>
> Since you mention color management, are you thinking about
using this as
> a color RIP? or are you talking about quadtone profiling? If
you were to
> use QTR I would assume you'd want to switch off all color
management and
> leave that to the QTR curves/profiles?

If there's a print server I would like it to handle all the
printing that has to be done. 3 systems to do the scanning,
editing, printing work is my limit. As long as Linux doesn't have
more CM than a plugin in the GIMP I would think that loading
Gimp-print with P2P treated Tiffs would be the best way to do it
if it has to be Linux.

> > Wonder whether my friend can add something to Roy's concept
> > so the whole becomes a bit more "salon faehig". Reading Roy's
> > latest additions it is at its core better than anything else.
> > But Roy's time will be limited.
>
> Agreed, what's needed is usability, ease-of-use and interface
> improvements, other than that it's got pretty much everything
we want.


Ernst