Digital BW, The Print

I've searched through untold numbers of Yahoo groups to find one 
that addressed problems I am having with my scanner.  Can't find one 
and this group appears to have the most erudite membership of any 
I've seen.  So--- having to do with B&W negative scanning (color 
negatives too)--- after 11/2 years of using this Epson 2450 the I am 
being presented with very narrow or out of alignment thumbnails and 
scans.  Yes, I've spent the $ to talk to Epson.  The tech read me 
the same materials I'd already gone through online and the final 
input was " sometimes the driver just does this."  I've reloaded the 
software 3 times.  Spent hours trying to finely tune the negs in the 
holder for precise position and all to no avail.  I can scan the 
same group of negatives several times and get several differnt out-
of-alignment thumbnails.  The scanner hasn't been moved or roughed 
up, everything elso works perfectly, transparencies, MF and flatbed 
all scan without a problem.  Anyone had a similar problem?  Any help 
out there.  I was making some progress with my B&W printing when 
this problem slammed me.  Thanks.

Barbara Woolner

> this group appears to have the most erudite membership ...

Aw shucks - you must be talking about those other people.

Many people are happier with Vuescan.  Download it for free
from www.hamrick.com.  It will have a watermark until you spring
for $60, but should still be able to tell if it's a hardware or
software problem.

John

Monday, June 16, 2003, 11:25:07 AM, bfwoolner wrote:

b> I've searched through untold numbers of Yahoo groups to find one 
b> that addressed problems I am having with my scanner.\ufffd Can't find one 
b> and this group appears to have the most erudite membership of any 
b> I've seen.\ufffd So--- having to do with B W negative scanning (color 
b> negatives too)--- after 11/2 years of using this Epson 2450 the I am 
b> being presented with very narrow or out of alignment thumbnails and 
b> scans.\ufffd Yes, I've spent the $ to talk to Epson.\ufffd The tech read me 
b> the same materials I'd already gone through online and the final 
b> input was " sometimes the driver just does this."\ufffd I've reloaded the 
b> software 3 times.\ufffd Spent hours trying to finely tune the negs in the 
b> holder for precise position and all to no avail.\ufffd I can scan the 
b> same group of negatives several times and get several differnt out-
b> of-alignment thumbnails.\ufffd The scanner hasn't been moved or roughed 
b> up, everything elso works perfectly, transparencies, MF and flatbed 
b> all scan without a problem.\ufffd Anyone had a similar problem?\ufffd Any help 
b> out there.\ufffd I was making some progress with my B W printing when 
b> this problem slammed me.\ufffd Thanks.

b> Barbara Woolner

Have you tried to use it with Vuescan to see if you still have the
problem?


Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

L i n k s  t o  m y  g a l l e r i e s:
http://fujirangefinder.com/document.php?id=246

Monday, June 16, 2003, 11:25:07 AM, bfwoolner wrote:
 
> I've searched through untold numbers of Yahoo groups to find one
> that addressed problems I am having with my scanner.  Can't find one
> and this group appears to have the most erudite membership of any
> I've seen.  So--- having to do with B W negative scanning (color
> negatives too)--- after 11/2 years of using this Epson 2450 the I am
> being presented with very narrow or out of alignment thumbnails and
> scans.  Yes, I've spent the $ to talk to Epson.  The tech read me
> the same materials I'd already gone through online and the final
> input was " sometimes the driver just does this."  I've reloaded the
> software 3 times.  Spent hours trying to finely tune the negs in the
> holder for precise position and all to no avail.  I can scan the
> same group of negatives several times and get several differnt out-
> of-alignment thumbnails.  The scanner hasn't been moved or roughed
> up, everything elso works perfectly, transparencies, MF and flatbed
> all scan without a problem.  Anyone had a similar problem?  Any help
> out there.  I was making some progress with my B W printing when
> this problem slammed me.  Thanks.
> 
> Barbara Woolner

Barbara

I've had exactly the same experience with our Epson 2450 Scanner.

The only way you can work around the problem is to switch off the automatic
thumbnail feature in the preferences and set the crop yourself.

If you need more detail contact me off list as I think were have gone off
topic here!
--
Regards
David Prakel

Centre of Britain PhotoWorkshops Partnership
www.photopartners.co.uk

I have a question about the profiling feature in Vuescan.  Does it bypass
the scanning setups, eg. histogram, color, brightness etc. or must one set
them before building the Scanner Profile?

 STEPHEN    JENNINGS
     P h o t o g r a p h e r
        Cambridge, MA
 sgjennin@...
www.stephenjennings.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Jennings 
<sgjennin@i...> wrote:
> I have a question about the profiling feature in Vuescan.  Does it 
bypass
> the scanning setups, eg. histogram, color, brightness etc. or must 
one set
> them before building the Scanner Profile?
> 
>  STEPHEN    JENNINGS
>      P h o t o g r a p h e r
>         Cambridge, MA
>  sgjennin@i...
> www.stephenjennings.com

Stephen:

As I understand it, VueScan creates the scanner profile based on the 
raw scan, therefore all the settings on the Color Tab don't make any 
difference during profile creation.

During use of the profile, the profile is applied and then any Color 
Tab settings are applied.

Remember that the VueScan profile is a "matrix" type profile, that is 
it only specifies the white point,RGB primaries, and RGB gammas.  It 
does not create a CLUT (color lookup table) that get loaded into your 
video card like typical commerical profiling packages do.

Jeff Randall

Personally I'm not sure about view scan. Perhaps I'm not using it 
right but it's 50/50 for me whether I get a better scan using it or 
from just using the FS4000 by itself. When I scan my holga 2 1/4's 
with my Epson 1200U they usually look better with Vuescan but not 
always.

Do others of you find these same inconsistancies?

Tim

At 01:12 PM 6/18/2003, you wrote:
>Personally I'm not sure about view scan. Perhaps I'm not using it
>right but it's 50/50 for me whether I get a better scan using it or
>from just using the FS4000 by itself. When I scan my holga 2 1/4's
>with my Epson 1200U they usually look better with Vuescan but not
>always.
>
>Do others of you find these same inconsistancies?
>
>Tim

Nope. I use Vuescan almost 100% of the time because I have found I get 
better scans with it than with almost anything else on virtually all of my 
images. Maybe you're expecting the scan to look great as it comes in from 
the scanner. Rather than that, I set Vuescan to capture all of the tonal 
range of the image, which makes the image somewhat low contrast initially, 
then I make curve adjustments in Photoshop. This way, I know I'm getting 
all the image has to offer. Other software I have used made the initial 
scan look better than Vuescan, but I found that usually one or the other or 
both ends of the tonal range were getting clipped, so I wasn't getting all 
the information. I also do no sharpening or filtering in the scanning 
software. I do all this in Photoshop.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

Stan,

Can you please explain how you set Vuescan to capture all the tonal range of the 
image? Also, if it's not too complicated, how do you adjust the curves in Photoshop?

I use Vuescan with a Polaroid SS4000, and I've been about ready to give up on 
Vuescan lately, because I do get very inconsistent scans, especially with color slides 
(media type set to Image). I get one nearly perfect one, then 
one too yellow, too green, or much too contrasty, or more than one of those. I can't 
figure out how to tweak what I see in the histograms, other than changing the 
selected Image Curve on the Color tab. The various Brightness and Black & White 
Point adjustments are a mystery to me.

I thought maybe the problem was a scanner calibration issue... I was thinking of 
going back to Silverfast, which came with an IT-8 calibration slide. The problems 
have really made me frustrated with the whole process of scanning. And the 
inconsistency seems to mean that I can't really do batch scans, even from the same 
roll of film.

Peter


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stan McQueen <stan@s...> 
wrote:

> I use Vuescan almost 100% of the time because I have found I get 
> better scans with it than with almost anything else on virtually all of my 
> images. Maybe you're expecting the scan to look great as it comes in from 
> the scanner. Rather than that, I set Vuescan to capture all of the tonal 
> range of the image, which makes the image somewhat low contrast initially, 
> then I make curve adjustments in Photoshop. This way, I know I'm getting 
> all the image has to offer. Other software I have used made the initial 
> scan look better than Vuescan, but I found that usually one or the other or 
> both ends of the tonal range were getting clipped, so I wasn't getting all 
> the information. I also do no sharpening or filtering in the scanning 
> software. I do all this in Photoshop.
> 
> Stan

Peter, if you are scanning colour slides you should set the media type to
';slide film', not image as the image tab gives you an uncorrected scan.
Just make sure that the endpoints are slightly outside the data in the histo
and away you go. Colour correct in PS.


Julian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "peter_in_seattle" <lists@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:20 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Vuescan Profiles


> Stan,
>
> Can you please explain how you set Vuescan to capture all the tonal range
of the
> image? Also, if it's not too complicated, how do you adjust the curves in
Photoshop?
>
> I use Vuescan with a Polaroid SS4000, and I've been about ready to give up
on
> Vuescan lately, because I do get very inconsistent scans, especially with
color slides
> (media type set to Image). I get one nearly perfect one, then
> one too yellow, too green, or much too contrasty, or more than one of
those. I can't
> figure out how to tweak what I see in the histograms, other than changing
the
> selected Image Curve on the Color tab. The various Brightness and Black &
White
> Point adjustments are a mystery to me.
>
> I thought maybe the problem was a scanner calibration issue... I was
thinking of
> going back to Silverfast, which came with an IT-8 calibration slide. The
problems
> have really made me frustrated with the whole process of scanning. And the
> inconsistency seems to mean that I can't really do batch scans, even from
the same
> roll of film.
>
> Peter
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stan McQueen
<stan@s...>
> wrote:
> > I use Vuescan almost 100% of the time because I have found I get
> > better scans with it than with almost anything else on virtually all of
my
> > images. Maybe you're expecting the scan to look great as it comes in
from
> > the scanner. Rather than that, I set Vuescan to capture all of the tonal
> > range of the image, which makes the image somewhat low contrast
initially,
> > then I make curve adjustments in Photoshop. This way, I know I'm getting
> > all the image has to offer. Other software I have used made the initial
> > scan look better than Vuescan, but I found that usually one or the other
or
> > both ends of the tonal range were getting clipped, so I wasn't getting
all
> > the information. I also do no sharpening or filtering in the scanning
> > software. I do all this in Photoshop.
> >
> > Stan
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "peter_in_seattle" <lists@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:20 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Vuescan Profiles


> Stan,
>
> Can you please explain how you set Vuescan to capture all the
tonal range of the
> image? Also, if it's not too complicated, how do you adjust the
curves in Photoshop?
>
> I use Vuescan with a Polaroid SS4000, and I've been about ready
to give up on
> Vuescan lately, because I do get very inconsistent scans,
especially with color slides
> (media type set to Image). I get one nearly perfect one, then
> one too yellow, too green, or much too contrasty, or more than
one of those. I can't
> figure out how to tweak what I see in the histograms, other
than changing the
> selected Image Curve on the Color tab. The various Brightness
and Black & White
> Point adjustments are a mystery to me.
>
> I thought maybe the problem was a scanner calibration issue...
I was thinking of
> going back to Silverfast, which came with an IT-8 calibration
slide. The problems
> have really made me frustrated with the whole process of
scanning. And the
> inconsistency seems to mean that I can't really do batch scans,
even from the same
> roll of film.
>
> Peter

Peter,

One other cause could be that your setting of "buffer" in the
"crop" menu doesn't correspond with the way you normally crop. In
default it is set at 15% meaning that at a border of 15% of the
cropsize there's no measurement done for the exposure etc. I
usually scan beyond the frame so that setting is alright for me.
If you however crop more, then it could influence the
exposure,especially with important colour information at the
edges. You should then lock the preview exposure of the total in
the "input" menu and/or set the buffer percentage lower.

Vuescan has features for scanner profile creation so with the IT8
target you already have it is quite easy to profile the scanner.

Ernst

Thanks Jeff,

I was wondering if this feature would replace my other profiling software.
I didn't think so, but your answer confirmed it.  What prompted my question
was the clipping apparent on the Q60 in the Preview Display.  Am I correct
in assuming that the clipping indicators are linked to the Color Tabs and
can be disregarded?

Stephen

> 
> Stephen:
> 
> As I understand it, VueScan creates the scanner profile based on the
> raw scan, therefore all the settings on the Color Tab don't make any
> difference during profile creation.
> 
> During use of the profile, the profile is applied and then any Color
> Tab settings are applied.
> 
> Remember that the VueScan profile is a "matrix" type profile, that is
> it only specifies the white point,RGB primaries, and RGB gammas.  It
> does not create a CLUT (color lookup table) that get loaded into your
> video card like typical commerical profiling packages do.
> 
> Jeff Randall

Peter,

There's another thing you should check. Ed Hamrick did change the
upgrading/versions/pricing of Vuescan. It hasn't been clear (to
me) so far how that affects existing licenses. My copy isn't a
year old and I paid the old (low) price then, it still shows all
the pro version features and they work AFAIK. But others have
tried to use the pro features and they didn't work without
anything shown in the menus that they didn't work (greyed out for
example).

Ernst

Stephen:

Yes you can disregard the clipping during profile creation.  However 
clipping in a "real" image after profile application will be part of 
your saved image.  You can experiment with various color tab settings 
during profile creation to confirm.  Create the profile and then open 
it in a profile viewer, you should see that the white point, RGB 
primaries and RGB gammas are the same regardless of the color tab 
settings.

Jeff Randall

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Jennings 
<sgjennin@i...> wrote:
> Thanks Jeff,
> 
> I was wondering if this feature would replace my other profiling 
software.
> I didn't think so, but your answer confirmed it.  What prompted my 
question
> was the clipping apparent on the Q60 in the Preview Display.  Am I 
correct
> in assuming that the clipping indicators are linked to the Color 
Tabs and
> can be disregarded?
> 
> Stephen
> 
> > 
> > Stephen:
> > 
> > As I understand it, VueScan creates the scanner profile based on 
the
> > raw scan, therefore all the settings on the Color Tab don't make 
any
> > difference during profile creation.
> > 
> > During use of the profile, the profile is applied and then any 
Color
> > Tab settings are applied.
> > 
> > Remember that the VueScan profile is a "matrix" type profile, 
that is
> > it only specifies the white point,RGB primaries, and RGB gammas.  
It
> > does not create a CLUT (color lookup table) that get loaded into 
your

> > video card like typical commerical profiling packages do.
> > 
> > Jeff Randall

Tim,

    I use Vuescan exclusively with my Polaroid Sprintscan 4000.  I scan to
capture all of the data, which results in a low contrast image.  I then
tweak the 16 bit file in Photoshop.  It's a 'little' more work, but
definitely worth it.

Stephen


 STEPHEN    JENNINGS
     P h o t o g r a p h e r
        Cambridge, MA
 sgjennin@...
www.stephenjennings.com

> From: "Tim Timmermans" <zenphoto7@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:12:19 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Vuescan Profiles
> 
> 
> Personally I'm not sure about view scan. Perhaps I'm not using it
> right but it's 50/50 for me whether I get a better scan using it or
> from just using the FS4000 by itself. When I scan my holga 2 1/4's
> with my Epson 1200U they usually look better with Vuescan but not
> always.
> 
> Do others of you find these same inconsistancies?
> 
> Tim

Vuescan is not the most intuitive scanning sw I've used, but it is 
easily the most powerful. I'd advise you to read through the help 
section extensively and repeatedly, then experiment with incremental 
adjustments of variables one at a time until you have a good handle 
on the features and exactly how you are manipulating the rgb pixel 
values. You can have vuescan save both a raw scan and an adjusted 
file. You should also be able to apply settings consistently to other 
shots in the same roll, with tweaking to account for exposure 
inconsitancies (as well as different subjects, lighting conditions 
etc). 

The extent to which you are willing to work on each individual shot 
will determine the degree of success you have in extracting all of 
its qualities. If you want to 'set it and forget it', then you will 
have to accept compromises. In that case you may be better off with 
software provided with your scanner that is intended to more easily 
satisfy 'average' consumers, without too much effort. 

I'm having this problem with a friend who I helped build a website to 
sell products. This person wants to be able to make their own scans, 
but lacks experience, and expertise in photoshop, and can barely 
manage the very simple oem scanning package. This person is 
frustrated because their raw, 10-minute scans don't begin to approach 
the quality I can extract from Vuescan + Photoshop in an hour. Go 
figure.


--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "peter_in_seattle" 
<lists@g...> wrote:
> Stan,
> 
> Can you please explain how you set Vuescan to capture all the tonal 
range of the 
> image? Also, if it's not too complicated, how do you adjust the 
curves in Photoshop?
> 
> I use Vuescan with a Polaroid SS4000, and I've been about ready to 
give up on 
> Vuescan lately, because I do get very inconsistent scans, 
especially with color slides 
> (media type set to Image). I get one nearly perfect one, then 
> one too yellow, too green, or much too contrasty, or more than one 
of those. I can't 
> figure out how to tweak what I see in the histograms, other than 
changing the 
> selected Image Curve on the Color tab. The various Brightness and 
Black & White 
> Point adjustments are a mystery to me.
> 
> I thought maybe the problem was a scanner calibration issue... I 
was thinking of 
> going back to Silverfast, which came with an IT-8 calibration 
slide. The problems 
> have really made me frustrated with the whole process of scanning. 
And the 
> inconsistency seems to mean that I can't really do batch scans, 
even from the same 
> roll of film.
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stan McQueen 
<stan@s...> 
> wrote:
> > I use Vuescan almost 100% of the time because I have found I get 
> > better scans with it than with almost anything else on virtually 
all of my 
> > images. Maybe you're expecting the scan to look great as it comes 
in from 
> > the scanner. Rather than that, I set Vuescan to capture all of 
the tonal 
> > range of the image, which makes the image somewhat low contrast 
initially, 
> > then I make curve adjustments in Photoshop. This way, I know I'm 
getting 
> > all the image has to offer. Other software I have used made the 
initial 
> > scan look better than Vuescan, but I found that usually one or 
the other or 
> > both ends of the tonal range were getting clipped, so I wasn't 
getting all 
> > the information. I also do no sharpening or filtering in the 
scanning 

> > software. I do all this in Photoshop.
> > 
> > Stan

At 01:20 AM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
>Stan,
>
>Can you please explain how you set Vuescan to capture all the tonal range 
>of the
>image? Also, if it's not too complicated, how do you adjust the curves in 
>Photoshop?
>
>I use Vuescan with a Polaroid SS4000, and I've been about ready to give up on
>Vuescan lately, because I do get very inconsistent scans, especially with 
>color slides
>(media type set to Image). I get one nearly perfect one, then
>one too yellow, too green, or much too contrasty, or more than one of 
>those. I can't
>figure out how to tweak what I see in the histograms, other than changing the
>selected Image Curve on the Color tab. The various Brightness and Black & 
>White
>Point adjustments are a mystery to me.
>
>I thought maybe the problem was a scanner calibration issue... I was 
>thinking of
>going back to Silverfast, which came with an IT-8 calibration slide. The 
>problems
>have really made me frustrated with the whole process of scanning. And the
>inconsistency seems to mean that I can't really do batch scans, even from 
>the same
>roll of film.
>
>Peter

Scanning color slides, I set media type to "Image" as you said. I don't 
tweak the histogram other than to see that it's not being clipped. My 
typical settings for black and white points are 0 and 1 respectively. This 
usually ensures that I get all the info from the film into the computer.

In Photoshop, I use the curves tool (CTRL-M) to set my black and white 
points. I have the black point tool set to 5,5,5 and the white point tool 
set to 250,250,250. I vary these from time to time, but that's what I'm 
using now. I may also adjust the contrast by dragging the curve into an "S" 
shape. I also have several preset contrast curves that I use, but loading 
these curves undoes the black and white point settings. If the colors are 
really crummy, which does happen occasionally, usually due to a faulty 
exposure in the original slide, I use iCorrect EditLab filter from 
Pictographics to make adjustments. That filter will also take care of black 
and white points, contrast, brightness, saturation, color cast and flesh, 
sky, and foliage colors.

I haven't calibrated my scanner. Opinions differ on the usefulness of doing 
so. I do calibrate my monitor periodically and use paper and ink specific 
printer profiles.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

At 01:31 AM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
>Peter, if you are scanning colour slides you should set the media type to
>';slide film', not image as the image tab gives you an uncorrected scan.
>Just make sure that the endpoints are slightly outside the data in the histo
>and away you go. Colour correct in PS.

Depends on what you want. According to the Vuescan help file, setting to 
"Image" will result in the scan resembling the original slide. Setting to 
"Slide Film" and picking the appropriate film type on the Color Tab will 
result in a scan that resembles the original scene. If you use a saturated 
film like Velvia because you like the way the colors pop, what's the point 
of having the scan remove the saturation to get back to the original scene? 
I want my scans to look like the film, not like the original scene. YMMV.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

If you scan 'image' the scanner MUST be profiled using an IT8 target (or
similar ) on the slide stock you are using. Otherwise the scanner has no
benchmark  to convert the numbers it reads. It is basically uncalibrated -
although I guess Austin will give you the technicalities. Scanning 'image'
in BW gives you great data - this is what I do. But a scanner isn't
intelligent - it is just a tool that transfers data. 'Image' give you the
best 'raw' data VS will provide, but you have to calibrate it by building a
profile. Using the slide setting uses canned profiles, better than none, but
not as good as image with IT8. I said you shouldn't use 'slide' as it didn't
sound as if you were profiling the scanner.

Julian

Julian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stan McQueen" <stan@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Vuescan Profiles


> At 01:31 AM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
> >Peter, if you are scanning colour slides you should set the media type to
> >';slide film', not image as the image tab gives you an uncorrected scan.
> >Just make sure that the endpoints are slightly outside the data in the
histo
> >and away you go. Colour correct in PS.
>
> Depends on what you want. According to the Vuescan help file, setting to
> "Image" will result in the scan resembling the original slide. Setting to
> "Slide Film" and picking the appropriate film type on the Color Tab will
> result in a scan that resembles the original scene. If you use a saturated
> film like Velvia because you like the way the colors pop, what's the point
> of having the scan remove the saturation to get back to the original
scene?
> I want my scans to look like the film, not like the original scene. YMMV.
>
> Stan
>
> ================================
> Photography by Stan McQueen
> http://www.smcqueen.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

At 12:44 PM 6/19/2003, Julian wrote:
>f you scan 'image' the scanner MUST be profiled using an IT8 target (or
>similar ) on the slide stock you are using. Otherwise the scanner has no
>benchmark  to convert the numbers it reads. It is basically uncalibrated -
>although I guess Austin will give you the technicalities. Scanning 'image'
>in BW gives you great data - this is what I do. But a scanner isn't
>intelligent - it is just a tool that transfers data. 'Image' give you the
>best 'raw' data VS will provide, but you have to calibrate it by building a
>profile. Using the slide setting uses canned profiles, better than none, but
>not as good as image with IT8. I said you shouldn't use 'slide' as it didn't
>sound as if you were profiling the scanner.
>
>Julian

Actually you said you shouldn't use "Image." But maybe that was just a 
typo. Anyway, me and my hundreds of slides scanned as "Image" will just 
have to disagree with you. Quoting from the Vuescan user's guide:
If you choose "Image", no film correction is used, so the cropped file will 
be comparable to the image on the film. If you choose "Negative film" or 
"Slide film", the cropped image will comparable to the original scene that 
was photographed. When you use either film option, options on the Color tab 
lets you choose the film manufacturer, the film brand, and the film type to 
further refine how VueScan processes the result.
The difference between "Image" and "Slide film" is subtle. If you take a 
picture of the same scene with Kodachrome and Ektachrome film and scan them 
with the "Slide film" setting, VueScan tries to make the resulting scan 
look the same (i.e. to resemble the original scene). If you use the "Image" 
setting, the resulting scans will look different and will reflect the 
slightly different color characteristics of Kodachrome and Ektachrome film.
If you then took a picture of this same scene with Kodak Gold color 
negative film and scanned it using the "Negative film" setting, the 
resulting scan should look close to the scan you get from using the "Slide 
film" setting and scanning the Kodachrome and Ektachrome slides (i.e. all 
three should look like the original scene).
Again, I want my scans to look like my slides, not like the original scene 
(see paragraph 2 of the quoted material above). If you use the "Slide Film" 
setting, Vuescan applies a film profile to convert the image; if you use 
"Image" it does not.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

Julian:

I think you are confusing Vuescan's built in profile (that Ed created 
on his scanner) or the IT8 profile (created on your scanner) with 
Vuescan's film sensometric data that can be also applied (Slide) or 
not (Image).

If you don't use an IT8 profile you created specifically for your 
scanner, then you can (should) use the built in profile.  Then the 
choice is to scan as an Image without film specific data or as a 
Slide with film specific data.

Jeff Randall

or --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian 
Thomas" <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> If you scan 'image' the scanner MUST be profiled using an IT8 
target (or
> similar ) on the slide stock you are using. Otherwise the scanner 
has no
> benchmark  to convert the numbers it reads. It is basically 
uncalibrated -
> although I guess Austin will give you the technicalities. 
Scanning 'image'
> in BW gives you great data - this is what I do. But a scanner isn't
> intelligent - it is just a tool that transfers data. 'Image' give 
you the
> best 'raw' data VS will provide, but you have to calibrate it by 
building a
> profile. Using the slide setting uses canned profiles, better than 
none, but
> not as good as image with IT8. I said you shouldn't use 'slide' as 
it didn't
> sound as if you were profiling the scanner.
> 
> Julian
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Stan McQueen" <stan@s...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Vuescan Profiles
> 
> 
> > At 01:31 AM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
> > >Peter, if you are scanning colour slides you should set the 
media type to
> > >';slide film', not image as the image tab gives you an 
uncorrected scan.
> > >Just make sure that the endpoints are slightly outside the data 
in the
> histo
> > >and away you go. Colour correct in PS.
> >
> > Depends on what you want. According to the Vuescan help file, 
setting to
> > "Image" will result in the scan resembling the original slide. 
Setting to
> > "Slide Film" and picking the appropriate film type on the Color 
Tab will
> > result in a scan that resembles the original scene. If you use a 
saturated
> > film like Velvia because you like the way the colors pop, what's 
the point
> > of having the scan remove the saturation to get back to the 
original
> scene?
> > I want my scans to look like the film, not like the original 
scene. YMMV.
> >
> > Stan
> >
> > ================================
> > Photography by Stan McQueen
> > http://www.smcqueen.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

OK, well I was only trying to help. Didn't you say you weren't getting
accurate results? Now are you REALLY trying to say that you shouldn't
profile your scanner? If you are,  I suggest a quick course in Bruce
Fraser's Real World Colour Management. But if you aren't profiling and like
your results that is ok too.

Julian



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stan McQueen" <stan@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Vuescan Profiles


> At 12:44 PM 6/19/2003, Julian wrote:
> >f you scan 'image' the scanner MUST be profiled using an IT8 target (or
> >similar ) on the slide stock you are using. Otherwise the scanner has no
> >benchmark  to convert the numbers it reads. It is basically
uncalibrated -
> >although I guess Austin will give you the technicalities. Scanning
'image'
> >in BW gives you great data - this is what I do. But a scanner isn't
> >intelligent - it is just a tool that transfers data. 'Image' give you the
> >best 'raw' data VS will provide, but you have to calibrate it by building
a
> >profile. Using the slide setting uses canned profiles, better than none,
but
> >not as good as image with IT8. I said you shouldn't use 'slide' as it
didn't
> >sound as if you were profiling the scanner.
> >
> >Julian
>
> Actually you said you shouldn't use "Image." But maybe that was just a
> typo. Anyway, me and my hundreds of slides scanned as "Image" will just
> have to disagree with you. Quoting from the Vuescan user's guide:
> If you choose "Image", no film correction is used, so the cropped file
will
> be comparable to the image on the film. If you choose "Negative film" or
> "Slide film", the cropped image will comparable to the original scene that
> was photographed. When you use either film option, options on the Color
tab
> lets you choose the film manufacturer, the film brand, and the film type
to
> further refine how VueScan processes the result.
> The difference between "Image" and "Slide film" is subtle. If you take a
> picture of the same scene with Kodachrome and Ektachrome film and scan
them
> with the "Slide film" setting, VueScan tries to make the resulting scan
> look the same (i.e. to resemble the original scene). If you use the
"Image"
> setting, the resulting scans will look different and will reflect the
> slightly different color characteristics of Kodachrome and Ektachrome
film.
> If you then took a picture of this same scene with Kodak Gold color
> negative film and scanned it using the "Negative film" setting, the
> resulting scan should look close to the scan you get from using the "Slide
> film" setting and scanning the Kodachrome and Ektachrome slides (i.e. all
> three should look like the original scene).
> Again, I want my scans to look like my slides, not like the original scene
> (see paragraph 2 of the quoted material above). If you use the "Slide
Film"
> setting, Vuescan applies a film profile to convert the image; if you use
> "Image" it does not.
>
> Stan
>
> ================================
> Photography by Stan McQueen
> http://www.smcqueen.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

OK, I stand corrected.

Julian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Randall" <jrandall@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:33 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Vuescan Profiles


> Julian:
>
> I think you are confusing Vuescan's built in profile (that Ed created
> on his scanner) or the IT8 profile (created on your scanner) with
> Vuescan's film sensometric data that can be also applied (Slide) or
> not (Image).
>
> If you don't use an IT8 profile you created specifically for your
> scanner, then you can (should) use the built in profile.  Then the
> choice is to scan as an Image without film specific data or as a
> Slide with film specific data.
>
> Jeff Randall
>
> or --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian
> Thomas" <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > If you scan 'image' the scanner MUST be profiled using an IT8
> target (or
> > similar ) on the slide stock you are using. Otherwise the scanner
> has no
> > benchmark  to convert the numbers it reads. It is basically
> uncalibrated -
> > although I guess Austin will give you the technicalities.
> Scanning 'image'
> > in BW gives you great data - this is what I do. But a scanner isn't
> > intelligent - it is just a tool that transfers data. 'Image' give
> you the
> > best 'raw' data VS will provide, but you have to calibrate it by
> building a
> > profile. Using the slide setting uses canned profiles, better than
> none, but
> > not as good as image with IT8. I said you shouldn't use 'slide' as
> it didn't
> > sound as if you were profiling the scanner.
> >
> > Julian
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Stan McQueen" <stan@s...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 8:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Vuescan Profiles
> >
> >
> > > At 01:31 AM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
> > > >Peter, if you are scanning colour slides you should set the
> media type to
> > > >';slide film', not image as the image tab gives you an
> uncorrected scan.
> > > >Just make sure that the endpoints are slightly outside the data
> in the
> > histo
> > > >and away you go. Colour correct in PS.
> > >
> > > Depends on what you want. According to the Vuescan help file,
> setting to
> > > "Image" will result in the scan resembling the original slide.
> Setting to
> > > "Slide Film" and picking the appropriate film type on the Color
> Tab will
> > > result in a scan that resembles the original scene. If you use a
> saturated
> > > film like Velvia because you like the way the colors pop, what's
> the point
> > > of having the scan remove the saturation to get back to the
> original
> > scene?
> > > I want my scans to look like the film, not like the original
> scene. YMMV.
> > >
> > > Stan
> > >
> > > ================================
> > > Photography by Stan McQueen
> > > http://www.smcqueen.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
> > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

At 02:48 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
>OK, well I was only trying to help. Didn't you say you weren't getting
>accurate results? Now are you REALLY trying to say that you shouldn't
>profile your scanner? If you are,  I suggest a quick course in Bruce
>Fraser's Real World Colour Management. But if you aren't profiling and like
>your results that is ok too.
>
>Julian

No, I'm not saying that anybody should or shouldn't do anything. I have 
Bruce's book, I have read it, and it is very good and I learned a lot from 
it. But there is considerable disagreement among photographers over whether 
profiling of an input device (camera, scanner) is necessary. If profiling 
your scanner helps you get repeatable results, then you should do it. I 
haven't found it necessary. For me, it has been sufficient to profile my 
monitor and printers.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

First of all, thanks to all of you for kindly reponding to my
ignorant questions on this.

I may be getting a bit off-topic here, since the forum is about the
print (and so please  
feel free to respond off-list if you think this is not relevant), but
I'm frustrated in my  
effort to get good prints by my ignorance about all the steps leading
up to the print. I  
don't have a background in computer art, so all this is still fairly
new territory for me,  
and I 
think I've hit a point in my scanning and printing efforts where my
ambitions exceed  
my limited technical know-how, and I realize I need to do a lot of
studying if I want to  
get the kind of results I'm hoping for. Apparently many or most of
the people on this  
list truly understand the finer technical points of scanning,
Photoshop color and  
contrast manipulation (not to mention Curves), histograms, profiling
of scanners,  
monitors, printers, the Zone System and so on. I really haven't
mastered these things  
yet and have been stumbling through, managing to make some good
photos but not  
understanding the key techniques. I realize I should know how to do
all these things,  
but I don't yet -- and would welcome suggestions about what websites
or books to  
read. I will continue 
studying the Vuescan manual, but I think I need some more basic
primers. Hope I  
don't have to start with a calculus course...

Basically what I've been doing until now is scanning 35mm negs and
slides through  
Vuescan on my SprintScan 4000 and then manipulating in VueScan until
I get a  
preview image that looks good on my Powerbook G4 screen (has anyone
successfully  
profiled one of these frustrating puppies? the image changes
depending on viewing  
angle, how long it's been turned on, 
etc.) and then going from there. I understand how to change black and
white points  
on a histogram in PS, but I don't know how to change it in Vuescan so
that the image  
isn't clipped -- as it often is. I had thought it was due to the
limitations of the SS4000  
that the highlights are often blown out and shadows are muddy, since
they're visible  
in my transparencies. Glad to know it's not  the scanner's fault, but
I'm still not totally 
clear on how to change the histogram so  that the various lines don't
run up the side 
(clipping, right?)... I've tried changing the  selection in the Image
Curve pulldown on 
the Color tab, but often that just causes the  values to become even
more bunched up 
to one side, and the image looks terrible.

Also I have been scanning with Media Type set to Image, but some
function  
somewhere is still changing the colors for me so that I'm not getting
colors similar to  
what I see on the slide. Should I avoid using Restore Colors and
Restore Fading? Using  
my ignorant WYSIWYG approach, it seemed to me that turning those off
gave me gray,  
low-contrast images, but I guess only the histogram should matter and
not what I see  
in Vuescan, right?

Anyway, I'm willing to spend an hour to get each image looking right;
I would just like  
to have a method so I'm making good use of that hour.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stan McQueen
<stan@s...> 
wrote:

> Scanning color slides, I set media type to "Image" as you said. I
don't 
> tweak the histogram other than to see that it's not being clipped.
My 
> typical settings for black and white points are 0 and 1
respectively. This 
> usually ensures that I get all the info from the film into the
computer.
> 
. . .
> Stan

Don't use the "Restore Colors" and "Restore Fading" settings unless you are 
scanning old and faded images. That's what is changing the colors from your 
slides. You should expect the preview image to be somewhat low contrast. 
Don't worry about it. You will change that later in Photoshop. The point of 
Vuescan is to get all the information into Photoshop so you can play with 
it. If you make the image look good in the Vuescan preview, chances are you 
are losing a good bit of the information. I typically scan slides with the 
"Image" setting, black point of 0 and white point of 1. When they come into 
Photoshop, they look dull and lifeless, but a look at the histogram reveals 
that there is no information clipped and there is no "combing" indicating 
potential posterization when I print. Then I set the "real" black and white 
points and adjust the contrast curve in Photoshop. I usually do all this 
while viewing the image in my printer profile.

Hope this helps,
Stan
================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

At 02:03 PM 6/20/2003, you wrote:

>First of all, thanks to all of you for kindly reponding to my
>ignorant questions on this.
>
>I may be getting a bit off-topic here, since the forum is about the
>print (and so please
>feel free to respond off-list if you think this is not relevant), but
>I'm frustrated in my
>effort to get good prints by my ignorance about all the steps leading
>up to the print. I
>don't have a background in computer art, so all this is still fairly
>new territory for me,
>and I
>think I've hit a point in my scanning and printing efforts where my
>ambitions exceed
>my limited technical know-how, and I realize I need to do a lot of
>studying if I want to
>get the kind of results I'm hoping for. Apparently many or most of
>the people on this
>list truly understand the finer technical points of scanning,
>Photoshop color and
>contrast manipulation (not to mention Curves), histograms, profiling
>of scanners,
>monitors, printers, the Zone System and so on. I really haven't
>mastered these things
>yet and have been stumbling through, managing to make some good
>photos but not
>understanding the key techniques. I realize I should know how to do
>all these things,
>but I don't yet -- and would welcome suggestions about what websites
>or books to
>read. I will continue
>studying the Vuescan manual, but I think I need some more basic
>primers. Hope I
>don't have to start with a calculus course...
>
>Basically what I've been doing until now is scanning 35mm negs and
>slides through
>Vuescan on my SprintScan 4000 and then manipulating in VueScan until
>I get a
>preview image that looks good on my Powerbook G4 screen (has anyone
>successfully
>profiled one of these frustrating puppies? the image changes
>depending on viewing
>angle, how long it's been turned on,
>etc.) and then going from there. I understand how to change black and
>white points
>on a histogram in PS, but I don't know how to change it in Vuescan so
>that the image
>isn't clipped -- as it often is. I had thought it was due to the
>limitations of the SS4000
>that the highlights are often blown out and shadows are muddy, since
>they're visible
>in my transparencies. Glad to know it's not  the scanner's fault, but
>I'm still not totally
>clear on how to change the histogram so  that the various lines don't
>run up the side
>(clipping, right?)... I've tried changing the  selection in the Image
>Curve pulldown on
>the Color tab, but often that just causes the  values to become even
>more bunched up
>to one side, and the image looks terrible.
>
>Also I have been scanning with Media Type set to Image, but some
>function
>somewhere is still changing the colors for me so that I'm not getting
>colors similar to
>what I see on the slide. Should I avoid using Restore Colors and
>Restore Fading? Using
>my ignorant WYSIWYG approach, it seemed to me that turning those off
>gave me gray,
>low-contrast images, but I guess only the histogram should matter and
>not what I see
>in Vuescan, right?
>
>Anyway, I'm willing to spend an hour to get each image looking right;
>I would just like
>to have a method so I'm making good use of that hour.