Digital BW, The Print

3000 Users,

As I have mentioned before I have been planning to buy a second 1280 
when the Piezo software is available and add the "selenium" Piezo 
inks when they come out. After the all the nice things the Piezo 
users have had to say I am thinking in terms of Piezo on a 3000.

I did not do well with Piezo on my 1200 in terms of being able to 
eliminate micro and sub-micro banding and overnight clogging was a 
real nuisance. However, I have seen so many Piezo prints that do not 
suffer from this and have reports of Piezo users that have never had 
banding or clogging, that I may simply have gotten a not so good 
printer and should give it another try. I am thinking of using the 
Piezo driver with the MIS Full Spectrum inks until the selenium Piezo 
arrives.

The 3000 is fast vanishing at this point but is highly praised by 
people whose work and experience I respect. Paul Roark, Tyler Boley, 
Steve Meyers and many others speak of it as having qualities that 
other printers don't match. I would greatly appreciate some feedback 
on my concerns to help me reach a decision.

Banding was a major issue with the 3000 at one time. Is this still 
the case? Did the Piezo driver upgrade eliminate this?

If I buy one, probably a refurb at this point, what are the chances I 
will get a good one? How likely am I to get into a cycle of trying to 
exchange printers in hopes of getting a better one?

With the Piezo or MIS inks am I likely to have to modify the printer 
by removing pizza wheels, etc.?

I don't hear much about the 1520. Is this a viable alternative to the 
3000?

How difficult is it to fill your own virgin cartridges for the 3000? 
How is it done?

How important is it to have the Epson warranty? Would a used one be a 
reasonably safe bet?

Thanks in advance,

Martin Wesley

Martin,

You probably already know this, but: although it's able to handle the larger
paper size (A2 from meory) the same as the 3000... my understanding is that
the 1520 can not actually print anything like the width of that paper. I
struggle to imagine why Epson thought that was a great design idea! The 1520
is also reputed to be harder to fit with a CIS, for various reasons
including a suggestion that perhaps the head was not powerful enough to pull
ink through one, and with hassles over fooling the printer that you have
'changed cart's. Having said all that, I've seen a recent resurgence of
posts on the Epson list about 1520's, and people are clearly still using
them.

My guess is that the 3000 is the more 'business like' of the two... though I
have seen more posts than you can shake a stick at about how the
paper-feeding is unreliable etc (and that is _colour_ users of <no
particular inkset>). I suspect they were users expecting a printer they
wouldn't even have to hand-load sheets - it just seems to be one of those
learning-curve things. But it seems like the later Piezo driver upgrades did
do really good stuff for most 3000 users.

Not the hands on reply you wanted, but a reasonably useful compilation of
information, I hope.

Nij



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
<snip>
>
> I don't hear much about the 1520. Is this a viable alternative to the
> 3000?
>
<snip>

Martin,

> I don't hear much about the 1520. Is this a viable alternative to 
the 3000?

http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/ provided the following - 

"Epson Stylus 1520 -- Technically, this is also a 13" wide printer 
(in printable width), even though this printer will take a 17" wide 
sheet. However, I've decided to eliminate this printer from the 
comparison, for sake of simplicity. It's a great old 4-color printer 
(very solidly built), but the age of this printer puts the technology 
and the image quality of the 1160 at a much superior advantage. The 
1160 has variable ink droplet sizing technology (producing cleaner 
and more "separated" highlights) and the 1520 does not. The 1160 has 
a 4 picoliters minimum ink droplet size, vs. the 1520's fixed droplet 
size of 20 picoliters."

At the time I bought my 3000 the major differences were a little bit 
in print width and the larger, individual ink cartriges for the 3000.

> How difficult is it to fill your own virgin cartridges for the 
3000? How is it done?

Again from Inkjetart "Epson 3000/5000/9000 - All these printers use 
large individual cartridges that hold 110 to 220 ml of ink per 
color.  A CIS system is not necessary for the vast majority of users. 

To support that.  I was printing out a full page 8.5x11 stock chart 
daily for what must have been a year before I ran out of ink.  It was 
nice enough to be equally low on all the cartriges.  Between the size 
of the ink holders and ability to replace them individually...just 
buy and swap 'em out.

Cleavis

Martin asked:

> Banding was a major issue with the 3000 at one time. Is this still
> the case? Did the Piezo driver upgrade eliminate this?

No. Yes it did.
The beta 5.13 and v6 software do a very very nice job
of both separating the ink channels and using a new dithering
pattern which disguises the banding of the original "hardcore piezo" driver.

> If I buy one, probably a refurb at this point, what are the chances I
> will get a good one? How likely am I to get into a cycle of trying to
> exchange printers in hopes of getting a better one?

This (and all the anecdotal stuff) is like the blindmen
and the elephant...

My part of the elephant:
I have 2 3000's that are terrible at paper handling
and piezo inks clog frequently.

> With the Piezo or MIS inks am I likely to have to modify the printer
> by removing pizza wheels, etc.?

Likely, particularly if you can get thicker papers to feed.

> I don't hear much about the 1520. Is this a viable alternative to the
> 3000?

Only prints 13'' wide.

> How difficult is it to fill your own virgin cartridges for the 3000?
> How is it done?

Fairly easy. Just gotta be methodical.
see the MIS site for step by step instuctions



Thanks
Bob

Nij,

For some reason I was thinking that it was a 17" printer. I haven't 
looked at the specs in a long. I would certainly rather have the 
17x??? capabilty.

I never see anything on the 1520 so I figured there was probably a 
good or actually bad reason.

I am not a volume printer and don't mind hand loading sheets one at a 
time so that would be okay for me on the 3000.

Thanks for the info.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> You probably already know this, but: although it's able to handle 
the larger
> paper size (A2 from meory) the same as the 3000... my understanding 
is that
> the 1520 can not actually print anything like the width of that 
paper. I
> struggle to imagine why Epson thought that was a great design idea! 
The 1520
> is also reputed to be harder to fit with a CIS, for various reasons
> including a suggestion that perhaps the head was not powerful 
enough to pull
> ink through one, and with hassles over fooling the printer that you 
have
> 'changed cart's. Having said all that, I've seen a recent 
resurgence of
> posts on the Epson list about 1520's, and people are clearly still 
using
> them.
> 
> My guess is that the 3000 is the more 'business like' of the two... 
though I
> have seen more posts than you can shake a stick at about how the
> paper-feeding is unreliable etc (and that is _colour_ users of <no
> particular inkset>). I suspect they were users expecting a printer 
they
> wouldn't even have to hand-load sheets - it just seems to be one of 
those
> learning-curve things. But it seems like the later Piezo driver 
upgrades did
> do really good stuff for most 3000 users.
> 
> Not the hands on reply you wanted, but a reasonably useful 
compilation of
> information, I hope.
> 
> Nij
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@e...]
> <snip>
> >
> > I don't hear much about the 1520. Is this a viable alternative to 
the

> > 3000?
> >
> <snip>

Cleasvis,

Well I will drop the 1520 out of consideration. With the 3000 I would 
need to fill cartridges since the ink I want to use only comes in 
bulk. But if it lasts so long at least this would not have to be done 
very often.

Thanks,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., lyonscox@m... wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> > I don't hear much about the 1520. Is this a viable alternative to 
> the 3000?
> 
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/13_comp/ provided the following -
 
> 
> "Epson Stylus 1520 -- Technically, this is also a 13" wide printer 
> (in printable width), even though this printer will take a 17" wide 
> sheet. However, I've decided to eliminate this printer from the 
> comparison, for sake of simplicity. It's a great old 4-color 
printer 
> (very solidly built), but the age of this printer puts the 
technology 
> and the image quality of the 1160 at a much superior advantage. The 
> 1160 has variable ink droplet sizing technology (producing cleaner 
> and more "separated" highlights) and the 1520 does not. The 1160 
has 
> a 4 picoliters minimum ink droplet size, vs. the 1520's fixed 
droplet 
> size of 20 picoliters."
> 
> At the time I bought my 3000 the major differences were a little 
bit 
> in print width and the larger, individual ink cartriges for the 
3000.
> 
> > How difficult is it to fill your own virgin cartridges for the 
> 3000? How is it done?
> 
> Again from Inkjetart "Epson 3000/5000/9000 - All these printers use 
> large individual cartridges that hold 110 to 220 ml of ink per 
> color.  A CIS system is not necessary for the vast majority of 
users. 
> 
> To support that.  I was printing out a full page 8.5x11 stock chart 
> daily for what must have been a year before I ran out of ink.  It 
was 
> nice enough to be equally low on all the cartriges.  Between the 
size 

> of the ink holders and ability to replace them individually...just 
> buy and swap 'em out.
> 
> Cleavis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" 
<bobenland@m...> wrote:

(snip)
> 
> > If I buy one, probably a refurb at this point, what are the 
chances I
> > will get a good one? How likely am I to get into a cycle of 
trying to
> > exchange printers in hopes of getting a better one?
> 
> This (and all the anecdotal stuff) is like the blindmen
> and the elephant...
> 
> My part of the elephant:
> I have 2 3000's that are terrible at paper handling
> and piezo inks clog frequently.

Bob,

Great analogy for this whole business! Hell of way to operate in a 
visual art medium!

I hope that by using the MIS FS inks to side step the clog issues and 
to get a print color closer to what I prefer. Is the handling 
problems you are seeing causing prints to get messed up during 
printing or is it just a problem getting the paper started? 

I generally do not present any work that has not been window matted 
so I don't need to do anything like 300-400gsm and can get by with 
papers in the 200gsm range. Do you think these would work reasonably 
well?

Thank you for all the information!

Martin

(snip)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 3000 Users,

I'd take Bob O's advise seriously, I think he's been putting both of his through heavier use than mine, and seems to have 
had more trouble. Sorry Bob, I didn't know you had clog problems.
I'd buy a refurb with a warranty. The first thing you should do is get the thickest 17x22 Epson paper there is and print a 
large box, say 16x20, on it with the Epson inks, through the back. If it is not square, or is not the correct dimensions (a little 
short, or long), imediately send it back or in for warranty. Don't accept whacky nozzle patterns or alignment problems, just 
keep bugging them until it's right with the OEM ink. Epson is very good, and fast, about 3000 repairs.
Once that part is ok most of the problems are behind you, except for the thickest of papers. It will pass very thick paper, but 
can't control the advance acurately. So you'll get incorrect dimensions and banding. How thick varies, I can use papers up 
to around 250gsm ok, Steve has actually had luck with 310gsm paper, and I think Bob told me he couldn't even get Wells 
River 190gsm through without a problem. I used to get Concorde Rag?gsm through the front, the others have to go through 
the back but it makes no performance difference as far as I can tell despite the additional roller contact.
Pizza wheels are an individual thing, they help my paper stay square, but for others leave marks on some papers. The new 
Piezo driver does solve banding if the printer needs it, but is very slow. Who knows if the the current version is going to 
work with the new ink you're waiting for? Certainly there will be new profiles at the least.
I have no idea about the chances of getting a good one. I think IJM used to say 1 of 5 was bad.
Tyler

Martin,

>...After the all the nice things the Piezo
>users have had to say I am thinking in terms of Piezo on a 3000.

When you get the print exchange package, you'll be able to see what my 3000
prints look like with the MIS VM inkset.

Last night I decided to enter a print in a juried show that required
submission this morning.  The image I chose was in a Genuine Fractals file
that is about one year old.  I had made it for/with Piezo inks then.  I
increased resolution to what is needed for a 16x20 at 360 dpi and printed it
unaltered through the 3000 with MIS VM inks and the neutral curve.  I let
the print dry over night, and this morning I taped it into a Light
Impressions pre-cut matte, put that into a frame, and entered it into the
show.

It was really as simple as that.  One piece of paper, a year-old file that
was done when I was using Piezo inks, and bingo, a perfect 16x20 out of the
3000.  I love that old clunker.  (People I talk to on the phone when the
3000 is running think I'm in a newspaper printing room:  Ker-Chunk,
Ker-Chunk ....)

But, the 3000 clearly has its weaknesses. Even front feeding EAM took three
tries last night before it worked.  Also, I'm not a thick paper guy, so I
don't have all of those problems.  I just front feed EAM that I cut from a
24" roll.  (I tried Museo front-fed, which the company says works.  It fed,
but looked terrible -- mottled.)

Also, I am not expert on 3000's.  I have not had it long, and I've basically
just followed what appeared to be the consensus of users, mostly on the
Piezo group, who were not reporting problems.  For me it's just been a very
easy and relatively cheap way to get what I consider excellent 16x20s.

So, the experts like Tyler are going to know a lot more about the machine
than I do.

>...I am thinking of using the
>Piezo driver with the MIS Full Spectrum inks until the selenium Piezo
>arrives.

I wonder if there is enough demand for a non-warming, neutral version of the
FS inkset for me to bother with it.  I think the 4-ink version would be an
easy modification of the next-generation variable-tone I'm working on.
(Don't worry, it uses the same curves.)  My feeling is that a lot of people
want either warmer or cooler than the current FS inkset.

>The 3000 is fast vanishing at this point ...

I see it is still on the Epson website.  Have they stopped selling it?

>With the Piezo or MIS inks am I likely to have to modify the printer
>by removing pizza wheels, etc.?

I have seen some wheel marks on a couple of prints with EAM.  I have not
removed the offending ones yet, however.  On most EAM prints it's not a
problem.

>I don't hear much about the 1520. Is this a viable
>alternative to the 3000?

No.

>How difficult is it to fill your own virgin cartridges for the 3000?

No problem.  Follow MIS instructions.  Get their clamps to hold the carts
upright.  (The clamps seemed like they could break the carts, but being
careful, it all worked perfectly the first time.)

>How is it done?

Big syringes with special needles -- I was a bit afraid I'd wrecked the seal
by pushing the syringe through, but it all worked out.  Getting the air out
sounds tricky, but it was really no big deal.

>How important is it to have the Epson warranty? Would a used one be a
>reasonably safe bet?

After the Piezo list, I was afraid to get one without that warranty and
until I was fairly convinced that the Epson driver was an alternative. I
also waited until EAM was available.  I understand it'll now be called
"Endurance" in rolls and sold in November.

If you want 16x20s and can't justify a 7000, go for it -- there really
aren't any alternatives.  To me the 16x20 size is really important, as that
is what I've been printing for years in the darkroom.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Martin,

The Epson site still lists new ones for $995.00, but they have none 
available. They do have refurbs available for $899.00 that have the 
same 2 year warranty, and you won't have any problems returning one 
for replacement or service since it was purchased from them. Of the 
multitudes of printers that are surrounding me (8 at the moment, I 
think - probably missed a few somewhere), 3 are Epson refurbs that I 
haven't had any trouble with to date. Also if you were looking for a 
Piezo setup for it, there is one on eBay at this link (cut and paste 
as usual if it splits:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1281120357

Just thought of the fact that you already have the software, sorry.

There is also a 7000 that is at $2075.00 at his moment on the west 
coast that ends in 6 1/2 hours from the time I made this post:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1642077427

I know, but it is tempting!<g>

Terry

Tyler,

Thank you for all the good info on the 3000. Especially the tip on 
checking for proper print dimensions. I guess a 80% chance of getting 
a good one first time is something I can live with if I go into 
knowing the problems.

A couple of more questions if I may. I went back and checked the 
dimensions and the 3000 is BIG and heavy. 32" wide, 22" deep and 
50lbs. In order to use the straight through paper feed path, how much 
room do you need behind the printer? Does the paper feed in at an 
angle like all the other back loading Epson's?

How slow is the Piezo driver with the 3000? Right now my 1200 does an 
8x10 in about 7 minutes with the new Piezo driver set to "Best" which 
I believe corresponds to 1440 dpi.

You saw the coated work prints I sent around. These were all made on 
my 1200 and all show some micro or microscopic banding in the smooth 
sky areas of the print. Do you thing that I could get better 
performance from a properly working 3000?

Thanks,
Martin




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > 3000 Users,
> 
> I'd take Bob O's advise seriously, I think he's been putting both 
of his through heavier use than mine, and seems to have 
> had more trouble. Sorry Bob, I didn't know you had clog problems.
> I'd buy a refurb with a warranty. The first thing you should do is 
get the thickest 17x22 Epson paper there is and print a 
> large box, say 16x20, on it with the Epson inks, through the back. 
If it is not square, or is not the correct dimensions (a little 
> short, or long), imediately send it back or in for warranty. Don't 
accept whacky nozzle patterns or alignment problems, just 
> keep bugging them until it's right with the OEM ink. Epson is very 
good, and fast, about 3000 repairs.
> Once that part is ok most of the problems are behind you, except 
for the thickest of papers. It will pass very thick paper, but 
> can't control the advance acurately. So you'll get incorrect 
dimensions and banding. How thick varies, I can use papers up 
> to around 250gsm ok, Steve has actually had luck with 310gsm paper, 
and I think Bob told me he couldn't even get Wells 
> River 190gsm through without a problem. I used to get Concorde Rag?
gsm through the front, the others have to go through 
> the back but it makes no performance difference as far as I can 
tell despite the additional roller contact.
> Pizza wheels are an individual thing, they help my paper stay 
square, but for others leave marks on some papers. The new 
> Piezo driver does solve banding if the printer needs it, but is 
very slow. Who knows if the the current version is going to 
> work with the new ink you're waiting for? Certainly there will be 
new profiles at the least.
> I have no idea about the chances of getting a good one. I think IJM 
used to say 1 of 5 was bad.
> Tyler

Paul,

Appreciate the feedback. One of the things that is a draw for the 
3000 is that it will take any of the ink sets and with the cartridge 
loading option it isn't as big an expense or hassle as changing over 
a CIS. I haven't printed 16X20 in years but mostly because I didn't 
have the capability. I would be nice to see some of my 4x5 and 6x7 
work at that size.

The possibility of running the MIS VM is in my mind too. As we 
discussed once it is a bit easier to manipulate with 4-inks rather 
than the 6 of the 1280. My taste in ink seems to fall in-between most 
peoples preferred tones of cool and warm so that is an option for me.

As you know I am fond of the Eclipse Satine and the Hahnemule Photo 
Rag. Do you think that those could be front feed?

Thanks,
Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> >...After the all the nice things the Piezo
> >users have had to say I am thinking in terms of Piezo on a 3000.
> 
> When you get the print exchange package, you'll be able to see what 
my 3000
> prints look like with the MIS VM inkset.
> 
> Last night I decided to enter a print in a juried show that required
> submission this morning.  The image I chose was in a Genuine 
Fractals file
> that is about one year old.  I had made it for/with Piezo inks 
then.  I
> increased resolution to what is needed for a 16x20 at 360 dpi and 
printed it
> unaltered through the 3000 with MIS VM inks and the neutral curve.  
I let
> the print dry over night, and this morning I taped it into a Light
> Impressions pre-cut matte, put that into a frame, and entered it 
into the
> show.
> 
> It was really as simple as that.  One piece of paper, a year-old 
file that
> was done when I was using Piezo inks, and bingo, a perfect 16x20 
out of the
> 3000.  I love that old clunker.  (People I talk to on the phone 
when the
> 3000 is running think I'm in a newspaper printing room:  Ker-Chunk,
> Ker-Chunk ....)
> 
> But, the 3000 clearly has its weaknesses. Even front feeding EAM 
took three
> tries last night before it worked.  Also, I'm not a thick paper 
guy, so I
> don't have all of those problems.  I just front feed EAM that I cut 
from a
> 24" roll.  (I tried Museo front-fed, which the company says works.  
It fed,
> but looked terrible -- mottled.)
> 
> Also, I am not expert on 3000's.  I have not had it long, and I've 
basically
> just followed what appeared to be the consensus of users, mostly on 
the
> Piezo group, who were not reporting problems.  For me it's just 
been a very
> easy and relatively cheap way to get what I consider excellent 
16x20s.
> 
> So, the experts like Tyler are going to know a lot more about the 
machine
> than I do.
> 
> >...I am thinking of using the
> >Piezo driver with the MIS Full Spectrum inks until the selenium 
Piezo
> >arrives.
> 
> I wonder if there is enough demand for a non-warming, neutral 
version of the
> FS inkset for me to bother with it.  I think the 4-ink version 
would be an
> easy modification of the next-generation variable-tone I'm working 
on.
> (Don't worry, it uses the same curves.)  My feeling is that a lot 
of people
> want either warmer or cooler than the current FS inkset.
> 
> >The 3000 is fast vanishing at this point ...
> 
> I see it is still on the Epson website.  Have they stopped selling 
it?
> 
> >With the Piezo or MIS inks am I likely to have to modify the 
printer
> >by removing pizza wheels, etc.?
> 
> I have seen some wheel marks on a couple of prints with EAM.  I 
have not
> removed the offending ones yet, however.  On most EAM prints it's 
not a
> problem.
> 
> >I don't hear much about the 1520. Is this a viable
> >alternative to the 3000?
> 
> No.
> 
> >How difficult is it to fill your own virgin cartridges for the 
3000?
> 
> No problem.  Follow MIS instructions.  Get their clamps to hold the 
carts
> upright.  (The clamps seemed like they could break the carts, but 
being
> careful, it all worked perfectly the first time.)
> 
> >How is it done?
> 
> Big syringes with special needles -- I was a bit afraid I'd wrecked 
the seal
> by pushing the syringe through, but it all worked out.  Getting the 
air out
> sounds tricky, but it was really no big deal.
> 
> >How important is it to have the Epson warranty? Would a used one 
be a
> >reasonably safe bet?
> 
> After the Piezo list, I was afraid to get one without that warranty 
and
> until I was fairly convinced that the Epson driver was an 
alternative. I
> also waited until EAM was available.  I understand it'll now be 
called
> "Endurance" in rolls and sold in November.
> 
> If you want 16x20s and can't justify a 7000, go for it -- there 
really
> aren't any alternatives.  To me the 16x20 size is really important, 
as that

> is what I've been printing for years in the darkroom.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Terry,

8 printers? Wow and I thought my workspace was getting crowded. Yeah 
the 3000 is still listed as new but has been "Temporarily Out of 
Stock" since mid July so I am thinking this is the end of the road 
for the model.

I am wondering if I have room for the 3000 much less a 7000 so my 
wallet was save!

Thanks,
Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> The Epson site still lists new ones for $995.00, but they have none 
> available. They do have refurbs available for $899.00 that have the 
> same 2 year warranty, and you won't have any problems returning one 
> for replacement or service since it was purchased from them. Of the 
> multitudes of printers that are surrounding me (8 at the moment, I 
> think - probably missed a few somewhere), 3 are Epson refurbs that 
I 
> haven't had any trouble with to date. Also if you were looking for 
a 
> Piezo setup for it, there is one on eBay at this link (cut and 
paste 

> as usual if it splits:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1281120357
> 
> Just thought of the fact that you already have the software, sorry.
> 
> There is also a 7000 that is at $2075.00 at his moment on the west 
> coast that ends in 6 1/2 hours from the time I made this post:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1642077427
> 
> I know, but it is tempting!<g>
> 
> Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Terry,
> 
> 8 printers? Wow and I thought my workspace was getting crowded. > 

> Martin,

Actually 9 as another new 1280 showed up today! So did the v6 driver 
for the 980, but I can't pick up the 980 until Saturday to play - 
oops guess that will make 10!! Just think of a room with wall to wall 
printers and hundreds of pound of paper stock! I really REALLY need 
to quit tinkering and do some printing <g> 

I haven't looked at the disc yet, is the 1280 driver there yet, or 
will they release another updater for it?

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
...In order to use the straight through paper feed path, how much 
> room do you need behind the printer? Does the paper feed in at an 
> angle like all the other back loading Epson's?

You can feed it in through the top/back at an angle like the desktop models, or straight through the back tractor feed slot. 
Most recommend the tractor feed slot which would require as much room behind the printer as the piece of paper. It never 
helped me to do that, so I use the top slot. My printer's back is almost up against the wall, so the paper just rests against 
the (hopefully clean) wall, works fine. Actually the tray feed like Paul uses is very convenient if it'll work with your paper.
> 
> How slow is the Piezo driver with the 3000? Right now my 1200 does an 
> 8x10 in about 7 minutes with the new Piezo driver set to "Best" which 
> I believe corresponds to 1440 dpi.

Hopefully Steve or another 3000 Piezo user will respond since I use PressReady. I tested the new driver when it came out 
and I think a 16x20 took around 45 minutes! If you are lucky enough to get a really prime 3000, you can use a driver setting 
that doesn't have the pause between passes so it goes much faster with the same quality.
> 
> You saw the coated work prints I sent around. These were all made on 
> my 1200 and all show some micro or microscopic banding in the smooth 
> sky areas of the print. Do you thing that I could get better 
> performance from a properly working 3000?
> 
Sorry Martin, I didn't take a loupe to your prints. All these have some kind of pattern or very faint lines when magnified. But 
a good 3000 with Piezo should show nothing by eye even up close. I'm looking at a small old Zees test I did on EAM, I can't 
see a darn thing in it, even with a loupe I'm only seeing a very small, smooth and tight dot pattern. I'd send you a small 
print but I'm leaving for the mountains for a week or so. Is there an axchange going around with some 3000 prints? Maybe 
when I get back.
Tyler

Where's the best place to buy EAM? I need to restock 13x19 and now that I
have a ESC3000 on the way (it's all your fault Martin!) the 24" rolls Paul
mentioned would be in order.

Thanks,

Larry

Tyler,

The angle feed sounds good. Like you I would have to put it back 
against the wall. It would have to go on the plywood shelf over my 
monitor but as long as the paper goes in at an angle I am sure I 
would have space to work it out.

Well 45 minutes for a 16x20 would be 12 minute for an 8x10, which is 
what I am getting now with the Epson driver on the 1280. I would 
guess you were running with the Piezo driver quality set to best. If 
it is like the 1280 you could proof at a quality setting of "Good" 
which probably prints much faster and save the slow speed for the 
final prints.

With these print speeds I can see why people wind up with multiple 
printers! This leads me to a question. Do you initially work on an 
image at 8x10 and then move up to 16x20 when you feel you are getting 
close or do you use 16x20 for your work prints too? If you do work 
prints at 8x10, do you have to make many adjustments when you go up 
in size?

I have a couple of 3000 prints from the first Piezo exchange group of 
10. They are both excellent quality. The one on EAM shows a small 
amount of window screen under magnification. This appears to be 
limited to a narrow tonal range and not visible under normal viewing. 
The other is on William Turner 190gsm and is flawless under the 
loupe. I will be seeing some more in the current exchange so please 
don't go to any trouble to send me anything. I assume the 5x7 will be 
journeying with you?

Martin

P.S. It just struck me that we are going in opposite directions. You 
like the Piezo ink but prefer to use your own workflow and I am drawn 
towards the Piezo driver but don't like the ink color. I really do 
hope to get to see some of your prints one of these days.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ...In order to use the straight through paper feed path, how much 
> > room do you need behind the printer? Does the paper feed in at an 
> > angle like all the other back loading Epson's?
> 
> You can feed it in through the top/back at an angle like the 
desktop models, or straight through the back tractor feed slot. 
> Most recommend the tractor feed slot which would require as much 
room behind the printer as the piece of paper. It never 
> helped me to do that, so I use the top slot. My printer's back is 
almost up against the wall, so the paper just rests against 
> the (hopefully clean) wall, works fine. Actually the tray feed like 
Paul uses is very convenient if it'll work with your paper.
> > 
> > How slow is the Piezo driver with the 3000? Right now my 1200 
does an 
> > 8x10 in about 7 minutes with the new Piezo driver set to "Best" 
which 
> > I believe corresponds to 1440 dpi.
> 
> Hopefully Steve or another 3000 Piezo user will respond since I use 
PressReady. I tested the new driver when it came out 
> and I think a 16x20 took around 45 minutes! If you are lucky enough 
to get a really prime 3000, you can use a driver setting 
> that doesn't have the pause between passes so it goes much faster 
with the same quality.
> > 
> > You saw the coated work prints I sent around. These were all made 
on 
> > my 1200 and all show some micro or microscopic banding in the 
smooth 
> > sky areas of the print. Do you thing that I could get better 
> > performance from a properly working 3000?
> > 
> Sorry Martin, I didn't take a loupe to your prints. All these have 
some kind of pattern or very faint lines when magnified. But 
> a good 3000 with Piezo should show nothing by eye even up close. 
I'm looking at a small old Zees test I did on EAM, I can't 
> see a darn thing in it, even with a loupe I'm only seeing a very 
small, smooth and tight dot pattern. I'd send you a small 
> print but I'm leaving for the mountains for a week or so. Is there 
an axchange going around with some 3000 prints? Maybe 
> when I get back.
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
mwesley250@e...> wrote:
snip...
Do you initially work on an 
> image at 8x10 and then move up to 16x20 when you feel you are getting 
> close or do you use 16x20 for your work prints too?

Actually I start even smaller and work up, and often do full image 
size but cropped small prints of areas that need more attention, also 
to evaluate sharpening. After all that I tend to think I'll luck out 
and get a good one at full size and go ahead. Never happens. Sometimes 
I do a 13x19 on EAM since the tonal values with my curves are so 
similar to Wells River, but it feels so different I still can't say 
for sure untill I do a big one on the final paper. You know, you can 
do everything right and the magic still isn't there, assuming it will 
ever be!

  If you do work 
> prints at 8x10, do you have to make many adjustments when you go up 
> in size?

No, I haven't seen any difference.

> don't go to any trouble to send me anything. I assume the 5x7 will be 
> journeying with you?

If I can sneak it into the car behind my girlfriend's back. I think 
she's anticipating spending some time together, even after all these 
years!

> towards the Piezo driver but don't like the ink color. I really do 
> hope to get to see some of your prints one of these days.

My problem is that I tear them up as fast as I make them...
Tyler

Check out www.atlex.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Larry Roohr [mailto:lrryr@...]
  Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 7:38 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Where to buy EAM?



  Where's the best place to buy EAM? I need to restock 13x19 and now that I
  have a ESC3000 on the way (it's all your fault Martin!) the 24" rolls Paul
  mentioned would be in order.
  [Paul Roark]

  I don't know if the "Endurance" matte (EAM in rolls -- guess they're
having second thoughts about the archival character) is out yet.  Some press
release said November release.  I got my roll from the head of the Epson
graphics dept. on a random phone call.

  Paul




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> P.S. It just struck me that we are going in opposite directions. You
> like the Piezo ink but prefer to use your own workflow and I am drawn
> towards the Piezo driver but don't like the ink color. I really do
> hope to get to see some of your prints one of these days.

Have you considered staying with Piezo and just using some of Cones pure
pigment color inks to tint your piezo inks? An equal percentage of color to
each ink location should work, maybe?

Hmm, probably not so easy; you'd want to test with carts, but the 1280 is
chipped....

Todd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:

(snip)
> 
> Actually I start even smaller and work up, and often do full image 
> size but cropped small prints of areas that need more attention, 
also 
> to evaluate sharpening. After all that I tend to think I'll luck 
out 
> and get a good one at full size and go ahead. Never happens. 
Sometimes 
> I do a 13x19 on EAM since the tonal values with my curves are so 
> similar to Wells River, but it feels so different I still can't say 
> for sure untill I do a big one on the final paper. You know, you 
can 
> do everything right and the magic still isn't there, assuming it 
will 
> ever be!

Tyler,

I know exactly what you mean. While the overall adjustments may work 
okay, local contrasts and brightnesses may not work at all. In the 
small print some small area is fine and at a larger size it becomes a 
featureless blob that needs local contrast work. Mostly it is just 
the aesthetics. Things simply do not look the same as the print 
changes size. Works both ways too. An image that looks great as a 
16x20 may not come across well at 8x10.
> 

(snip)

> 
> If I can sneak it into the car behind my girlfriend's back. I think 
> she's anticipating spending some time together, even after all 
these 
> years!

Now this is a common photographic problem that nevers seems to get 
adequate coverage in any of the photo books. Even Ansel failed to 
give us a solution to this one. Maybe he was holding some secrets 
back after all!

Actually I did solve this problem to some extent. I did a very 
dastardly deed and succeeded in getting my wife addicted to 
photography. She is in charge of color with her Canon G1 and I handle 
the B&W. This has resulted in a much greater tolerance for taking 
pictures while vacationing!
> 
> > towards the Piezo driver but don't like the ink color. I really 
do 
> > hope to get to see some of your prints one of these days.
> 
> My problem is that I tear them up as fast as I make them...

I am much worse and never throw any of them away resulting in 
mountains of worthless work prints of unknow origins all over the 
place!

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> I know exactly what you mean. While the overall adjustments may work 
> okay, local contrasts and brightnesses may not work at all. In the 
> small print some small area is fine and at a larger size it becomes a 
> featureless blob that needs local contrast work.

Right. The hard thing is knowing what to do when it just isn't there. Sometimes the smallest overall shift darker or lighter 
can bring everything alive, and you wouldn't have known untill you see it. So does that mean you try every possible version 
just to see it? Yikes. Or you'll jump through all these hoops, only to look at an earlier version and realise it's gorgeous, but 
you didn't see it. It's hard to know when to stop, or just accept that a given image won't yeild an extraordinarily luminous 
print, the image alone will have to carry it. But as Ken Smith put it beautifully one day, you can't print in a way that lies 
about the image, it's a sin :)

 Mostly it is just 
> the aesthetics. Things simply do not look the same as the print 
> changes size. Works both ways too. An image that looks great as a 
> 16x20 may not come across well at 8x10.

This is true for me. I tend to have a lot of textural eye candy over a high percentage of the print, but the underlying overall 
graphic is not bold, pretty subtle. When I started making larger prints, I got a better grasp of what I was up to, and was 
able to revisit some things that never worked smaller, then start to go WITH it. It constantly amazes me what revelations 
still come about, it never really ends. That's why I still think there is art in the craft part as well.
Jeez, I'm rambling. Better get some work done today.
Tyler

Martin,
Interested in going in on a warehouse?
I use the silver work prints for montage/collage and toning experiments.
(good excuse, eh?)
Maybe I will try watercolor wash on piezo prints...
or better yet, have the print tossers spend some time in my studio!
t

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:39:44 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...>
> wrote:
> 
> (snip)
>> 
>> Actually I start even smaller and work up, and often do full image
>> size but cropped small prints of areas that need more attention,
> also 
>> to evaluate sharpening. After all that I tend to think I'll luck
> out 
>> and get a good one at full size and go ahead. Never happens.
> Sometimes 
>> I do a 13x19 on EAM since the tonal values with my curves are so
>> similar to Wells River, but it feels so different I still can't say
>> for sure untill I do a big one on the final paper. You know, you
> can 
>> do everything right and the magic still isn't there, assuming it
> will 
>> ever be!
> 
> Tyler,
> 
> I know exactly what you mean. While the overall adjustments may work
> okay, local contrasts and brightnesses may not work at all. In the
> small print some small area is fine and at a larger size it becomes a
> featureless blob that needs local contrast work. Mostly it is just
> the aesthetics. Things simply do not look the same as the print
> changes size. Works both ways too. An image that looks great as a
> 16x20 may not come across well at 8x10.
>> 
> 
> (snip)
> 
>> 
>> If I can sneak it into the car behind my girlfriend's back. I think
>> she's anticipating spending some time together, even after all
> these 
>> years!
> 
> Now this is a common photographic problem that nevers seems to get
> adequate coverage in any of the photo books. Even Ansel failed to
> give us a solution to this one. Maybe he was holding some secrets
> back after all!
> 
> Actually I did solve this problem to some extent. I did a very
> dastardly deed and succeeded in getting my wife addicted to
> photography. She is in charge of color with her Canon G1 and I handle
> the B&W. This has resulted in a much greater tolerance for taking
> pictures while vacationing!
>> 
>>> towards the Piezo driver but don't like the ink color. I really
> do 
>>> hope to get to see some of your prints one of these days.
>> 
>> My problem is that I tear them up as fast as I make them...
> 
> I am much worse and never throw any of them away resulting in
> mountains of worthless work prints of unknow origins all over the
> place!
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > If I can sneak it into the car behind my girlfriend's back. I think 
> > she's anticipating spending some time together, even after all 
> these 
> > years!
> 
> Now this is a common photographic problem that nevers seems to get 
> adequate coverage in any of the photo books. Even Ansel failed to 
> give us a solution to this one. Maybe he was holding some secrets 
> back after all!

I think the secret is that Virginia Adams made far too many sacrifices in her life for him, not something he's going to write 
much about!
Tyler

http://atlex.com


Jerry





Larry Roohr wrote:

> 
> Where's the best place to buy EAM? I need to restock 13x19 and now that I
> have a ESC3000 on the way (it's all your fault Martin!) the 24" rolls Paul
> mentioned would be in order.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Tyler,

I know I get to the point where I have 3 or 4 full size prints and I 
will ask my wife which she liked best. He reply is often. "The all 
look the same." I could see that one was a little lighter in this 
corner or had more contrast in the top burn but I had gone past the 
point of making meaningful, discernable changes. I found that if I 
put those prints away for a few weeks, I couldn't tell one from 
another either when I took them back out.

I think that this is the way it should be. You need to satisfy 
yourself that you have exhausted all or most of the possibilities. 
This really doesn't work for commercial work where time and cost are 
issues but we should be able to do this for the personal or "fine 
art" prints. If you don't push it past optimum it is difficult to 
know where that point is.

I don't know where you decide to stop. I think maybe you can just 
decide to give it a rest and take it up again the next time you print 
the image. I always loved the story of impressionist painter Bonard
(?) who was caught in a museum making some minor changes to one of 
this paintings hanging on the wall. Perhaps they are never really 
done.

I think that my prints are not truthful about the scene but hopefully 
are truthful about my reaction and feelings to what was in front of 
the camera. Same thing maybe.

I have never been comfortable with artist's statements or 
explanations of a work of art. I think a print is like a joke. If you 
have to explain it, most of the spirit is lost. Once you get to the 
heart of the matter, it seems like all you can do is ramble because 
the truth is in the prints and not in what you can write about them.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > I know exactly what you mean. While the overall adjustments may 
work 
> > okay, local contrasts and brightnesses may not work at all. In 
the 
> > small print some small area is fine and at a larger size it 
becomes a 
> > featureless blob that needs local contrast work.
> 
> Right. The hard thing is knowing what to do when it just isn't 
there. Sometimes the smallest overall shift darker or lighter 
> can bring everything alive, and you wouldn't have known untill you 
see it. So does that mean you try every possible version 
> just to see it? Yikes. Or you'll jump through all these hoops, only 
to look at an earlier version and realise it's gorgeous, but 
> you didn't see it. It's hard to know when to stop, or just accept 
that a given image won't yeild an extraordinarily luminous 
> print, the image alone will have to carry it. But as Ken Smith put 
it beautifully one day, you can't print in a way that lies 
> about the image, it's a sin :)
> 
>  Mostly it is just 
> > the aesthetics. Things simply do not look the same as the print 
> > changes size. Works both ways too. An image that looks great as a 
> > 16x20 may not come across well at 8x10.
> 
> This is true for me. I tend to have a lot of textural eye candy 
over a high percentage of the print, but the underlying overall 
> graphic is not bold, pretty subtle. When I started making larger 
prints, I got a better grasp of what I was up to, and was 
> able to revisit some things that never worked smaller, then start 
to go WITH it. It constantly amazes me what revelations 
> still come about, it never really ends. That's why I still think 
there is art in the craft part as well.
> Jeez, I'm rambling. Better get some work done today.
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> Interested in going in on a warehouse?
> I use the silver work prints for montage/collage and toning 
experiments.
> (good excuse, eh?)
> Maybe I will try watercolor wash on piezo prints...
> or better yet, have the print tossers spend some time in my studio!
> t

Trish,

No way! I'm sure that is a quality print of Half Dome about half way 
down the third stack from the left, or was that half way up from the 
4th p[ile on the right.....?

I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is tearing up!

Martin

> 
> > From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> > Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:39:44 -0000
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...>

> > wrote:
> > 
> > (snip)
> >> 
> >> My problem is that I tear them up as fast as I make them...
> > 
> > I am much worse and never throw any of them away resulting in
> > mountains of worthless work prints of unknow origins all over the
> > place!
> > 
> > Martin
> >

Martin,
You actually have things in piles?
I'm impressed.
t

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 03:58:09 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> wrote:
>> Martin,
>> Interested in going in on a warehouse?
>> I use the silver work prints for montage/collage and toning
> experiments.
>> (good excuse, eh?)
>> Maybe I will try watercolor wash on piezo prints...
>> or better yet, have the print tossers spend some time in my studio!
>> t
> 
> Trish,
> 
> No way! I'm sure that is a quality print of Half Dome about half way
> down the third stack from the left, or was that half way up from the
> 4th p[ile on the right.....?
> 
> I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is tearing up!
> 
> Martin
> 
>> 
>>> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:39:44 -0000
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@t...>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> (snip)
>>>> 
>>>> My problem is that I tear them up as fast as I make them...
>>> 
>>> I am much worse and never throw any of them away resulting in
>>> mountains of worthless work prints of unknow origins all over the
>>> place!
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
mwesley250@e...> wrote:
snip
> point of making meaningful, discernable changes. I found that if I 
> put those prints away for a few weeks, I couldn't tell one from 
> another either when I took them back out.

I get too close to it to see it. Looking at it later definitely helps, 
I don't know how many times I'd look at my dry darkroom prints the 
next morning and wonder what the h*** I was thinking.

> I think that my prints are not truthful about the scene but hopefully 
> are truthful about my reaction and feelings to what was in front of 
> the camera. Same thing maybe.

I think that's what I was trying to say...
> 
> I have never been comfortable with artist's statements or 
> explanations of a work of art.

Right, if I'm asked for an esoteric statement I generally would love 
to say that maybe they should consider another artist.
but we all know about my patience level...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
mwesley250@e...> wrote:
snip
> I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is tearing up!

I guess all this mystique building I've been doing is working!

Martin,
don't you ever get this funny feeling that despite all this dinking 
around we are all doing, most of our prints probably look more or less 
the same?
Tyler

...and I'm probably tearing them up with good reason...

Martin Wesley writes:

>   > "I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is tearing up!"
> 
They are pretty damm nice! I have rescued a couple from the trash bin..
He really does tear them up. I've been over there many times. He runs a 
spotless studio! Very neat, tidy, and organized. No rejects or seconds laying 
around. 
My wife wants to know why I'am not picking up some of those traits. :) 
Steve M.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:

(snip)

> > 
> > Now this is a common photographic problem that nevers seems to 
get 
> > adequate coverage in any of the photo books. Even Ansel failed to 
> > give us a solution to this one. Maybe he was holding some secrets 
> > back after all!
> 
> I think the secret is that Virginia Adams made far too many 
sacrifices in her life for him, not something he's going to write 
> much about!

I gathered that this was the case, although I have not read Mary 
Alinder's biography of Ansel, I seem to recall from reviews that this 
was an issue she covered.

Martin

Uhh...Well...what do you define as a "pile"?

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> You actually have things in piles?
> I'm impressed.
> t
> 
> > From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> > Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 03:58:09 -0000
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> > wrote:
> >> Martin,
> >> Interested in going in on a warehouse?
> >> I use the silver work prints for montage/collage and toning
> > experiments.
> >> (good excuse, eh?)
> >> Maybe I will try watercolor wash on piezo prints...
> >> or better yet, have the print tossers spend some time in my 
studio!
> >> t
> > 
> > Trish,
> > 
> > No way! I'm sure that is a quality print of Half Dome about half 
way
> > down the third stack from the left, or was that half way up from 
the
> > 4th p[ile on the right.....?
> > 
> > I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is tearing 
up!
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> >> 
> >>> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> >>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >>> Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:39:44 -0000
> >>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >>> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> >>> 
> >>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley"
> > <tyler@t...>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> (snip)
> >>>> 
> >>>> My problem is that I tear them up as fast as I make them...
> >>> 
> >>> I am much worse and never throw any of them away resulting in
> >>> mountains of worthless work prints of unknow origins all over 
the
> >>> place!
> >>> 
> >>> Martin
> >>> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:

(snip)

> I get too close to it to see it. Looking at it later definitely 
helps, 
> I don't know how many times I'd look at my dry darkroom prints the 
> next morning and wonder what the h*** I was thinking.

I definately know that sinking feeling of flipping the prints over on 
the drying screens to look at the results of a 8 to 12 hour darkroom 
session! Still feeling lost with the inkjet prints but I know I just 
have to get farther along the learning curve. All the tech and 
material changes don't help either!
> 
(snip)
> > 
> > I have never been comfortable with artist's statements or 
> > explanations of a work of art.
> 
> Right, if I'm asked for an esoteric statement I generally would 
love 
> to say that maybe they should consider another artist.
> but we all know about my patience level...

Which has to be very high to make the images you do!

Martin

stack will do

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 04:54:28 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> Uhh...Well...what do you define as a "pile"?
> 
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> wrote:
>> Martin,
>> You actually have things in piles?
>> I'm impressed.
>> t
>> 
>>> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 03:58:09 -0000
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Martin,
>>>> Interested in going in on a warehouse?
>>>> I use the silver work prints for montage/collage and toning
>>> experiments.
>>>> (good excuse, eh?)
>>>> Maybe I will try watercolor wash on piezo prints...
>>>> or better yet, have the print tossers spend some time in my
> studio!
>>>> t
>>> 
>>> Trish,
>>> 
>>> No way! I'm sure that is a quality print of Half Dome about half
> way
>>> down the third stack from the left, or was that half way up from
> the
>>> 4th p[ile on the right.....?
>>> 
>>> I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is tearing
> up!
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
>>>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>>>> Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:39:44 -0000
>>>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>>>> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
>>>>> 
>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley"
>>> <tyler@t...>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My problem is that I tear them up as fast as I make them...
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am much worse and never throw any of them away resulting in
>>>>> mountains of worthless work prints of unknow origins all over
> the
>>>>> place!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Martin
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> or "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
> mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> snip
> > I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is tearing 
up!
> 
> I guess all this mystique building I've been doing is working!
> 
> Martin,
> don't you ever get this funny feeling that despite all this dinking 
> around we are all doing, most of our prints probably look more or 
less 
> the same?
> Tyler
> 
> ...and I'm probably tearing them up with good reason...

Tyler,

You are absolutely correct. All the agonizing over 4 or 5% brighter 
or the size of the sharpening radius or whether to tone down that 
highlight in the corner may gain us little. Even a major change like 
you using the Piezo driver or my going back to Piezo ink, would go 
unnoticed by people looking at our work. All the dinking around 
probably contributes very little and in the long run may be majorly 
cutting into the amount of significant work that gets produced.

Like you said earlier, you get too close to it. But your reactions 
and sensibilities during the process are as important as the end 
result or at least are connected enough to be critical to the 
personal satisfaction derived from the whole cycle.

I believe that the work we produce is connected to the equipment, 
materials and methods we choose to work with. It feeds back from the 
results to our pre-visualization. So maybe no one else could tell but 
if we aren't satisfied it doesn't matter that they can't see the 
difference.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> 
>    Martin Wesley writes:
> 
> >   > "I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is 
tearing up!"
> > 
> They are pretty damm nice! I have rescued a couple from the trash 
bin..
> He really does tear them up. I've been over there many times. He 
runs a 
> spotless studio! Very neat, tidy, and organized. No rejects or 
seconds laying 
> around. 
> My wife wants to know why I'am not picking up some of those 
traits. :) 
> Steve M.
> 
Steve,

Not surprised. My workspace looks like a...well words sort of 
fail...messy? Nope not even close. Utter, irretrievable, slovenly, 
chaos. That's more like it.

My poor long suffering wife gave up years ago!

Martin

See if you can smuggle some more rejects out! ;-)

Martin,

Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene Smith in his
studio?

t

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 05:41:12 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Tyler Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
>> 
>> Martin Wesley writes:
>> 
>>>> "I bet we would kill to have some of those prints Tyler is
> tearing up!"
>>> 
>> They are pretty damm nice! I have rescued a couple from the trash
> bin..
>> He really does tear them up. I've been over there many times. He
> runs a 
>> spotless studio! Very neat, tidy, and organized. No rejects or
> seconds laying 
>> around. 
>> My wife wants to know why I'am not picking up some of those
> traits. :) 
>> Steve M.
>> 
> Steve,
> 
> Not surprised. My workspace looks like a...well words sort of
> fail...messy? Nope not even close. Utter, irretrievable, slovenly,
> chaos. That's more like it.
> 
> My poor long suffering wife gave up years ago!
> 
> Martin
> 
> See if you can smuggle some more rejects out! ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
snip...
 He runs a 
> spotless studio! Very neat, tidy, and organized. No rejects or seconds laying 
> around.

Hah! Got him fooled! Hey, it's such a mees I clean up when someone's 
comin' over. You know I hide all the crummy prints when another quad 
printer's comin over...
Gotta get my name off these subject headers, pleeeeease
Another 3000 thing Martin, all that attention we gave head alignments 
in early Piezo days are still important for a 3000, if you change the 
paper thickness lever it needs to be rechecked. All the little 
stairsteps in the nozzle check need to be correct too, usually easily 
fixed with a cleaning cucle. And watch your purge count!
Tyler

on 10/6/01 12:19 AM, sdmey4@... at sdmey4@... wrote:

> They are pretty damm nice! I have rescued a couple from the trash bin..
> He really does tear them up. I've been over there many times. He runs a
> spotless studio! Very neat, tidy, and organized. No rejects or seconds laying
> around. 

I tear up my rejects too. Life's too short to store them.
-- 
John Brownlow

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> snip...
>  He runs a 
> > spotless studio! Very neat, tidy, and organized. No rejects or 
seconds laying 
> > around.
> 
> Hah! Got him fooled! Hey, it's such a mees I clean up when 
someone's 
> comin' over. You know I hide all the crummy prints when another 
quad 
> printer's comin over...

Hey if you want to drop by sometime could you give me about a year's 
notice to shovel this place out?

> Gotta get my name off these subject headers, pleeeeease

Are you crazy! Look at all the free publicy your getting!

> Another 3000 thing Martin, all that attention we gave head 
alignments 
> in early Piezo days are still important for a 3000, if you change 
the 
> paper thickness lever it needs to be rechecked. All the little 
> stairsteps in the nozzle check need to be correct too, usually 
easily 
> fixed with a cleaning cucle. And watch your purge count!

Okay, I can handle that but what is a "purge count"?

Thanks,
Martin

Trish,

It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one afflicted! 
How bad was Eugene's?

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...> 
wrote:
> 
> Martin,
> 
> Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene 
Smith in his
> studio?
> 
> t
> 
(snip)

A nice gentleman once told me it is called "creative mess"  ;-)  We all
suffer from this, me thinks...   I'd need ten years and a backhoe :-)

Carolyn

> 
> Hey if you want to drop by sometime could you give me about a year's
> notice to shovel this place out?

I recall his biographer telling me of the floor being lumpy because he just painted (black, of course) over
the cat feces, rather than clean it up.  :- {

That's hard to beat for a 'messy' studio, huh?

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC

Martin Wesley wrote:

> Trish,
>
> It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one afflicted!
> How bad was Eugene's?
>
> Martin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Martin,
> >
> > Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene
> Smith in his
> > studio?
> >
> > t
> >
> (snip)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Okay, I can handle that but what is a "purge count"?
> 
> Thanks,
> Martin

The larger Epsons have large stationary carts with long lines to the heads, kinda like CIS. The lines hold a lot of ink, so you 
have to pull the carts with the printer off, then turn it on, and it'll purge the lines. then you put the cleaning carts in and 
eventually do the same thing again to switch to whatever your final inks are. Even if the inks are compatible it's worth 
doing because the small amount of color ink still hanging in there (coating the inside of the lines or whatever) will effect 
the hue of your quad inks for quite a few prints. It's not worth trying to run the ink out because someone estimated the 
lines hold about 80 8x10's worth of ink, might as well purge.
The printer keeps track of purges, because the sponges where the ink gets dumped from purging and clean cycles will fill 
up. At that point all lights will flash, you can't print, and it has to go in the shop for reset, no option. It happened to me once 
when I was trying to clear the Lyson clog from hell.
The 3000 is not the printer to play with different inks, obviously. Best make your ink decisions on something smaller.
Tyler

Even worse than mine...in addition to prints and mags and books and .....he
had negatives lying all over the place -NAKED-even on top of his desk lamp.
Mostly I manage to keep my negs in sleeves...now slides are another story.

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 01:56:36 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> Trish,
> 
> It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one afflicted!
> How bad was Eugene's?
> 
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> wrote:
>> 
>> Martin,
>> 
>> Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene
> Smith in his
>> studio?
>> 
>> t
>> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

But I have slug trails on the floor...how do they get in here anyway?

I have been away from the computer for 24 hours and must say my stomach
muscles are getting sore from laughing!
We should do this funny stuff more often...I'd be in better shape.
Can you get a six-pac from laughter?
Next, I'll have to put kleenex in here...

> From: SKID Photography <skid@...>
> Organization: SKID Photography
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:14:50 -0400
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> I recall his biographer telling me of the floor being lumpy because he just
> painted (black, of course) over
> the cat feces, rather than clean it up.  :- {
> 
> That's hard to beat for a 'messy' studio, huh?
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
>> Trish,
>> 
>> It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one afflicted!
>> How bad was Eugene's?
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Martin,
>>> 
>>> Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene
>> Smith in his
>>> studio?
>>> 
>>> t
>>> 
>> (snip)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

HA! I win then and have a messier space then you! I occasionally find 
prized negatives sandwiched between botched work prints, overdue 
bills, Post-It notes and packages of printing paper. Which explains 
why I don't dare throw anything away!

I don't think that I measure up to Eugene Smiths standards since I 
don't have any cats to clean up after and would not dream of 
competing against such a venerable master in any case.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...> 
wrote:
> Even worse than mine...in addition to prints and mags and books 
and .....he
> had negatives lying all over the place -NAKED-even on top of his 
desk lamp.
> Mostly I manage to keep my negs in sleeves...now slides are another 
story.
> 
> > From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> > Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 01:56:36 -0000
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> > 
> > Trish,
> > 
> > It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one afflicted!
> > How bad was Eugene's?
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> > wrote:
> >> 
> >> Martin,
> >> 
> >> Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene
> > Smith in his
> >> studio?
> >> 
> >> t
> >> 
> > (snip)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...> 
wrote:
> But I have slug trails on the floor...how do they get in here 
anyway?
> 
> I have been away from the computer for 24 hours and must say my 
stomach
> muscles are getting sore from laughing!
> We should do this funny stuff more often...I'd be in better shape.
> Can you get a six-pac from laughter?
> Next, I'll have to put kleenex in here...

In or out of the box?

Martin

> 
> > From: SKID Photography <skid@b...>
> > Organization: SKID Photography
> > Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:14:50 -0400
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> > 
> > I recall his biographer telling me of the floor being lumpy 
because he just
> > painted (black, of course) over
> > the cat feces, rather than clean it up.  :- {
> > 
> > That's hard to beat for a 'messy' studio, huh?
> > 
> > Harvey Ferdschneider
> > partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> > 
> > Martin Wesley wrote:
> > 
> >> Trish,
> >> 
> >> It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one 
afflicted!
> >> How bad was Eugene's?
> >> 
> >> Martin
> >> 
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan 
<ternahan@s...>
> >> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Martin,
> >>> 
> >>> Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene
> >> Smith in his
> >>> studio?
> >>> 
> >>> t
> >>> 
> >> (snip)
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >

oh no!!!  I forgot about the bills.....
Martin, we will just have to post photos and let the list decide this...
but I'll have to get a wide angle lens first..
Then we can start a creative chaos list...

trish.
p.s. my car isn't much better...

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 05:28:26 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> 
> HA! I win then and have a messier space then you! I occasionally find
> prized negatives sandwiched between botched work prints, overdue
> bills, Post-It notes and packages of printing paper. Which explains
> why I don't dare throw anything away!
> 
> I don't think that I measure up to Eugene Smiths standards since I
> don't have any cats to clean up after and would not dream of
> competing against such a venerable master in any case.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> wrote:
>> Even worse than mine...in addition to prints and mags and books
> and .....he
>> had negatives lying all over the place -NAKED-even on top of his
> desk lamp.
>> Mostly I manage to keep my negs in sleeves...now slides are another
> story.
>> 
>>> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 01:56:36 -0000
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
>>> 
>>> Trish,
>>> 
>>> It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one afflicted!
>>> How bad was Eugene's?
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Martin,
>>>> 
>>>> Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene
>>> Smith in his
>>>> studio?
>>>> 
>>>> t
>>>> 
>>> (snip)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
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> various
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>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
>

p.p.s.
I have a dog, a cat and four birds...and that @#@*! slug.......

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 05:28:26 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> 
> HA! I win then and have a messier space then you! I occasionally find
> prized negatives sandwiched between botched work prints, overdue
> bills, Post-It notes and packages of printing paper. Which explains
> why I don't dare throw anything away!
> 
> I don't think that I measure up to Eugene Smiths standards since I
> don't have any cats to clean up after and would not dream of
> competing against such a venerable master in any case.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> wrote:
>> Even worse than mine...in addition to prints and mags and books
> and .....he
>> had negatives lying all over the place -NAKED-even on top of his
> desk lamp.
>> Mostly I manage to keep my negs in sleeves...now slides are another
> story.
>> 
>>> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 01:56:36 -0000
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
>>> 
>>> Trish,
>>> 
>>> It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one afflicted!
>>> How bad was Eugene's?
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Martin,
>>>> 
>>>> Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene
>>> Smith in his
>>>> studio?
>>>> 
>>>> t
>>>> 
>>> (snip)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
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>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
>>> them short.
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> header.
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> or "flames."
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>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
>

what good would it do in the box?...the best part is my dog LOVES to shred
it every chance she gets.

I changed the subject, Brian. Belatedly

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 05:30:26 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> wrote:
>> But I have slug trails on the floor...how do they get in here
> anyway?
>> 
>> I have been away from the computer for 24 hours and must say my
> stomach
>> muscles are getting sore from laughing!
>> We should do this funny stuff more often...I'd be in better shape.
>> Can you get a six-pac from laughter?
>> Next, I'll have to put kleenex in here...
> 
> In or out of the box?
> 
> Martin
> 
>> 
>>> From: SKID Photography <skid@b...>
>>> Organization: SKID Photography
>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:14:50 -0400
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 4 Ty...  Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
>>> 
>>> I recall his biographer telling me of the floor being lumpy
> because he just
>>> painted (black, of course) over
>>> the cat feces, rather than clean it up.  :- {
>>> 
>>> That's hard to beat for a 'messy' studio, huh?
>>> 
>>> Harvey Ferdschneider
>>> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
>>> 
>>> Martin Wesley wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Trish,
>>>> 
>>>> It is a great relief to know that I am not the only one
> afflicted!
>>>> How bad was Eugene's?
>>>> 
>>>> Martin
>>>> 
>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan
> <ternahan@s...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Martin,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ah yes, but we are in good company...ever see a photo of Eugene
>>>> Smith in his
>>>>> studio?
>>>>> 
>>>>> t
>>>>> 
>>>> (snip)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> messages to keep
>>> them short.
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> or "flames."
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>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
>

Maybe the next print exchange ought to have a theme - images restricted to those of your 
"creative mess". For a further restriction, a diptych or other combination of two images, one of the 
entire mess (within the limits of your widest lens) and one a pertinant detail.

Tim

> A nice gentleman once told me it is called "creative mess"  ;-)  We
> all suffer from this, me thinks...   I'd need ten years and a backhoe
> :-)
> 
> Carolyn
--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

Perfect!... can we give out prizes??  What if our "creative mess" carries
thru two levels of our living spaces??

 I'm printing all these posts to show my husband... so he'll understand I'm
not alone :-)

Carolyn

> Maybe the next print exchange ought to have a theme - images restricted to
> those of your 
> "creative mess". For a further restriction, a diptych or other combination of
> two images, one of the
> entire mess (within the limits of your widest lens) and one a pertinant
> detail.
> 
> Tim
> 
>> A nice gentleman once told me it is called "creative mess"  ;-)  We
>> all suffer from this, me thinks...   I'd need ten years and a backhoe
>> :-)
>> 
>> Carolyn

Ahhh, I like that... photo-illustration collages are my thing.

I'm thinking coffee table book... "Famous (and not so famous (me)) digital
black and white inkjet printers and their "multilevelled creative
messes""... !! :-)

I'd really be interested to know where the visions of open aired, dove
filled, sunlit streamed, spotless studios come from? Sounds to me that we
are too busy creating to be cleaning and filing!

Carolyn

> 
> I've only got one living level, but the mess is certainly multilevelled. In
> your case, we could allow
> more than two images combined, collage, even.
> 
> Tim
> 
>> Perfect!... can we give out prizes??  What if our "creative mess"
>> carries thru two levels of our living spaces??
>> 
>> I'm printing all these posts to show my husband... so he'll
>> understand
>> I'm
>> not alone :-)
> 
> --
> Tim Spragens
> http://www.borderless-photos.com
> &
> http://www.borderless-photos.de
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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> them short.
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

I've only got one living level, but the mess is certainly multilevelled. In your case, we could allow 
more than two images combined, collage, even.

Tim

> Perfect!... can we give out prizes??  What if our "creative mess"
> carries thru two levels of our living spaces??
> 
>  I'm printing all these posts to show my husband... so he'll
>  understand
> I'm
> not alone :-)

--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

The whole concept that artist work is pristinely clean studios was started by those not in the arts, or by the
artists' middle class mothers who are embarrassed by the reality.  ;- )

Almost every story of artists and their studios shows what a complete mess their spaces are....Why it is so
hard for non creative types to comprehend how artists can hold more than one thought in their head at a time
is beyond me.  The whole point of being an artist is seeing beyond one's personal reality.  Cleanliness does
not connote artistic creativity....Probably just the opposite.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography

Carolyn Frayn wrote:

> <snip>
>
> I'm thinking coffee table book... "Famous (and not so famous (me)) digital
> black and white inkjet printers and their "multilevelled creative
> messes""... !! :-)
>
> I'd really be interested to know where the visions of open aired, dove
> filled, sunlit streamed, spotless studios come from? Sounds to me that we
> are too busy creating to be cleaning and filing!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Manager to slavey: "A cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind!"

Slavey to manager: "What is an empty desk the sign of?"

Tim

> The whole concept that artist work is pristinely clean studios was
> started by those not in the arts, or by the artists' middle class
> mothers who are embarrassed by the reality.  ;- )
> 
> Almost every story of artists and their studios shows what a complete
> mess their spaces are....Why it is so hard for non creative types to
> comprehend how artists can hold more than one thought in their head at
> a time is beyond me.  The whole point of being an artist is seeing
> beyond one's personal reality.  Cleanliness does not connote artistic
> creativity....Probably just the opposite.
> 

--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

> The whole concept that artist work is pristinely clean studios was started by
> those not in the arts, or by the
> artists' middle class mothers who are embarrassed by the reality.  ;- )

I love that! I'm sort of both ;-)... so I have to get after my boys for
having messy rooms, but then ignore the questions raised when they cannot
find their air hockey table under my stuff ...

> Almost every story of artists and their studios shows what a complete mess
> their spaces are....Why it is so
> hard for non creative types to comprehend how artists can hold more than one
> thought in their head at a time

right brain/left brain...

> is beyond me.  The whole point of being an artist is seeing beyond one's
> personal reality.  Cleanliness does
> not connote artistic creativity....Probably just the opposite.

Absolutely, you make perfect sense Harvey...  again.  :-)

Carolyn

LOL!!  Thanks for that Tim!  Cluttered minds bring forth inspiration,
discovery...  genius of human kind... ;-)

> 
> Manager to slavey: "A cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind!"
> 
> Slavey to manager: "What is an empty desk the sign of?"
> 
> Tim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Ahhh, I like that... photo-illustration collages are my thing.
> 
> I'm thinking coffee table book... "Famous (and not so famous (me)) 
digital
> black and white inkjet printers and their "multilevelled creative
> messes""... !! :-)
> 
> I'd really be interested to know where the visions of open aired, 
dove
> filled, sunlit streamed, spotless studios come from? Sounds to me 
that we
> are too busy creating to be cleaning and filing!


Carolyn,

Ah, that comes with success and your four under paid assistants. Who, 
if they are well behaved, get to put down their brooms occassionaly 
and load your camera for you.

Martin

> 
> > 
> > I've only got one living level, but the mess is certainly 
multilevelled. In
> > your case, we could allow
> > more than two images combined, collage, even.
> > 
> > Tim
> > 
> >> Perfect!... can we give out prizes??  What if our "creative mess"
> >> carries thru two levels of our living spaces??
> >> 
> >> I'm printing all these posts to show my husband... so he'll
> >> understand
> >> I'm
> >> not alone :-)
> > 
> > --
> > Tim Spragens
> > http://www.borderless-photos.com
> > &
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >

No, Martin, don't you remember it is the brooms that must put down the
apprentices....
t

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 03:27:57 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Argh!
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn
> <carolyn@u...> wrote:
>> Ahhh, I like that... photo-illustration collages are my thing.
>> 
>> I'm thinking coffee table book... "Famous (and not so famous (me))
> digital
>> black and white inkjet printers and their "multilevelled creative
>> messes""... !! :-)
>> 
>> I'd really be interested to know where the visions of open aired,
> dove
>> filled, sunlit streamed, spotless studios come from? Sounds to me
> that we
>> are too busy creating to be cleaning and filing!
> 
> 
> Carolyn,
> 
> Ah, that comes with success and your four under paid assistants. Who,
> if they are well behaved, get to put down their brooms occassionaly
> and load your camera for you.
> 
> Martin
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> I've only got one living level, but the mess is certainly
> multilevelled. In
>>> your case, we could allow
>>> more than two images combined, collage, even.
>>> 
>>> Tim
>>> 
>>>> Perfect!... can we give out prizes??  What if our "creative mess"
>>>> carries thru two levels of our living spaces??
>>>> 
>>>> I'm printing all these posts to show my husband... so he'll
>>>> understand
>>>> I'm
>>>> not alone :-)
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Tim Spragens
>>> http://www.borderless-photos.com
>>> &
>>> http://www.borderless-photos.de
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> or "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

as any good sorcerer would know!

> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 03:27:57 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Argh!
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn
> <carolyn@u...> wrote:
>> Ahhh, I like that... photo-illustration collages are my thing.
>> 
>> I'm thinking coffee table book... "Famous (and not so famous (me))
> digital
>> black and white inkjet printers and their "multilevelled creative
>> messes""... !! :-)
>> 
>> I'd really be interested to know where the visions of open aired,
> dove
>> filled, sunlit streamed, spotless studios come from? Sounds to me
> that we
>> are too busy creating to be cleaning and filing!
> 
> 
> Carolyn,
> 
> Ah, that comes with success and your four under paid assistants. Who,
> if they are well behaved, get to put down their brooms occassionaly
> and load your camera for you.
> 
> Martin
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> I've only got one living level, but the mess is certainly
> multilevelled. In
>>> your case, we could allow
>>> more than two images combined, collage, even.
>>> 
>>> Tim
>>> 
>>>> Perfect!... can we give out prizes??  What if our "creative mess"
>>>> carries thru two levels of our living spaces??
>>>> 
>>>> I'm printing all these posts to show my husband... so he'll
>>>> understand
>>>> I'm
>>>> not alone :-)
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Tim Spragens
>>> http://www.borderless-photos.com
>>> &
>>> http://www.borderless-photos.de
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> or "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Martin... 

Ok, the key word here being "success"... how about 3 sons and a dog?  The
dog has been know to help me with the floor cleaning, goodness knows the
sons don't.  They would definately be underpaid!

Carolyn

> 
> Carolyn,
> 
> Ah, that comes with success and your four under paid assistants. Who,
> if they are well behaved, get to put down their brooms occassionaly
> and load your camera for you.
> 
> Martin

> No, Martin, don't you remember it is the brooms that must put down the
> apprentices....
> t

> as any good sorcerer would know!

Thanks Trish, now I'm having visions of Mickey Mouse in my sunlit filled
studio with the doves...  :-)

C