Digital BW, The Print

I've installed the UltraTone carts in my 2200 yesterday,
and after letting it sit for ~ 5 hours and doing about
10 cleaning cycles, I started getting good nozzle checks.

I've installed Carl's 2200 UT curves after commenting 
out the linearization data.

Now, when I print 21Step.tif, using any of the profiles
that mention toner-curve.raw, the output alternates between
gray steps and varying levels of blue toner rather than being
a smooth ramp. (When I print using the warm curve, which 
does not use toner-curve.raw, the output is fine.)

Is this the result of the Mac/IBM bit-order problem in
toner-curve.raw mentioned in other posts? If so, how do I
correct that file? The instructions I found were a little
cryptic, and had to do with opening the gray16 file, not 
the toner-curve.raw file. That confuses me. What program are
you using to do this correction?

And once corrected, do I need to reprocess the .txt files 
and reinstall the curves?

Thanks,
David

Hi David,

I had the same thing happen with my 860 and the VM-sepia inkset. The
toner-curve-raw supplied with the Linux version of QTR is for the Mac and
has a different bit order than does the IBM-Linux version. If you wish I'll
send you the Linux version. Essentially to make it you open the gray16.psd
file in postscript, Open the curve function, load  toner-curve.acv then save
the file as toner-curve.raw and choose the IBM bit order.

Roger

 . -----Original Message-----

From: David Wroblewski [mailto:dawroblewski@...]
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 6:28 AM
To: DigitalBWThePrint
Subject: [Digital BW] QTR - grayscale ramp scrambled w/Ultratone curves


  I've installed the UltraTone carts in my 2200 yesterday,
  and after letting it sit for ~ 5 hours and doing about
  10 cleaning cycles, I started getting good nozzle checks.

  I've installed Carl's 2200 UT curves after commenting
  out the linearization data.

  Now, when I print 21Step.tif, using any of the profiles
  that mention toner-curve.raw, the output alternates between
  gray steps and varying levels of blue toner rather than being
  a smooth ramp. (When I print using the warm curve, which
  does not use toner-curve.raw, the output is fine.)

  Is this the result of the Mac/IBM bit-order problem in
  toner-curve.raw mentioned in other posts? If so, how do I
  correct that file? The instructions I found were a little
  cryptic, and had to do with opening the gray16 file, not
  the toner-curve.raw file. That confuses me. What program are
  you using to do this correction?

  And once corrected, do I need to reprocess the .txt files
  and reinstall the curves?

  Thanks,
  David


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Looks like Hahnem\ufffdhle Germany will be listening in to our concerns...

they have just popped up on another group to answer some questions and
listed the groups they listen to. They missed this one... so I put them on
to it. (BTW they say they have fixed the William Turner flaking)

tim

Friday, November 14, 2003, 7:48:34 AM, you wrote:

TA> Looks like Hahnem\ufffdhle Germany will be listening in to our concerns...

TA> they have just popped up on another group to answer some questions and
TA> listed the groups they listen to. They missed this one... so I put them on
TA> to it. (BTW they say they have fixed the William Turner flaking)

TA> tim

Which group did they pop up on?

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

Epson Wide Format

They were answering a specific question about non archival tape in the
packaging damaging large format sheets

tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Sintchak [mailto:richcontaxg@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:56 AM
> To: Tim Atherton
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnem\ufffdhle will be listening in
>
>
>
> Friday, November 14, 2003, 7:48:34 AM, you wrote:
>
> TA> Looks like Hahnem\ufffdhle Germany will be listening in to our concerns...
>
> TA> they have just popped up on another group to answer some questions and
> TA> listed the groups they listen to. They missed this one... so
> I put them on
> TA> to it. (BTW they say they have fixed the William Turner flaking)
>
> TA> tim
>
> Which group did they pop up on?
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Richard                            mailto:richard@...
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
> visiting this same page.
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"thinking out loud".... why is Hahnemuhle  photorag 188  approximately  
5 times the price of Epson EEM ?

On Friday, November 14, 2003, at 11:00 AM, Tim Atherton wrote:

> Epson Wide Format
>
> They were answering a specific question about non archival tape in the
> packaging damaging large format sheets
>
> tim
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richard Sintchak [mailto:richcontaxg@...]
>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:56 AM
>> To: Tim Atherton
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemühle will be listening in
>>
>>
>>
>> Friday, November 14, 2003, 7:48:34 AM, you wrote:
>>
>> TA> Looks like Hahnemühle Germany will be listening in to our  
>> concerns...
>>
>> TA> they have just popped up on another group to answer some  
>> questions and
>> TA> listed the groups they listen to. They missed this one... so
>> I put them on
>> TA> to it. (BTW they say they have fixed the William Turner flaking)
>>
>> TA> tim
>>
>> Which group did they pop up on?
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>>  Richard                            mailto:richard@...
>>
>>
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page  
>> is at:
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
>> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
>> visiting this same page.
>>
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>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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>> messages to keep them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject  
>> header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
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Friday, November 14, 2003, 8:00:26 AM, you wrote:

TA> Epson Wide Format

TA> They were answering a specific question about non archival tape in the
TA> packaging damaging large format sheets

TA> tim

Thanks.

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

Friday, November 14, 2003, 8:07:53 AM, you wrote:

JM> "thinking out loud".... why is Hahnemuhle  photorag 188  approximately
JM> 5 times the price of Epson EEM ?

While I lament the price of PR the results I get on my 2200, 870 and
1160 vs the EEM have me using it exclusively for any B&W prints I
sell.  Sharper, deeper blacks and better shadow details.

I wish my EEM results were as good as others report.  But then again
the HUGE price difference has me cringing all the time and certainly
limits my use to only the most special of prints.  Even at 20% cheaper
I'd probably use it all the time.

Hahnemuhle, are you listening?  Drop the price 20% get 2x the
usage from me!

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

errr.. he may not actually be listening yet.. :-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Sintchak [mailto:richcontaxg@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 9:32 AM
> To: Jeff Magidson
> Subject: Re[2]: [Digital BW] Hahnem\ufffdhle will be listening in
>
>
>
> Friday, November 14, 2003, 8:07:53 AM, you wrote:
>
> JM> "thinking out loud".... why is Hahnemuhle  photorag 188  approximately
> JM> 5 times the price of Epson EEM ?
>
> While I lament the price of PR the results I get on my 2200, 870 and
> 1160 vs the EEM have me using it exclusively for any B&W prints I
> sell.  Sharper, deeper blacks and better shadow details.
>
> I wish my EEM results were as good as others report.  But then again
> the HUGE price difference has me cringing all the time and certainly
> limits my use to only the most special of prints.  Even at 20% cheaper
> I'd probably use it all the time.
>
> Hahnemuhle, are you listening?  Drop the price 20% get 2x the
> usage from me!
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Richard                            mailto:richard@...
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
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>
>

David,

If you are using a Mac, I don't think the toner curve would be that far  
off to require any adjustment.  Do you get a similar effect with the  
sepia curve (orange)?  Are you sure all of the gray inks are firing  
(nozzle checks OK)?

Carl

On Friday, November 14, 2003, at 08:27  AM, David Wroblewski wrote:

> I've installed the UltraTone carts in my 2200 yesterday,
> and after letting it sit for ~ 5 hours and doing about
> 10 cleaning cycles, I started getting good nozzle checks.
>
> I've installed Carl's 2200 UT curves after commenting
> out the linearization data.
>
> Now, when I print 21Step.tif, using any of the profiles
> that mention toner-curve.raw, the output alternates between
> gray steps and varying levels of blue toner rather than being
> a smooth ramp. (When I print using the warm curve, which
> does not use toner-curve.raw, the output is fine.)
>
> Is this the result of the Mac/IBM bit-order problem in
> toner-curve.raw mentioned in other posts? If so, how do I
> correct that file? The instructions I found were a little
> cryptic, and had to do with opening the gray16 file, not
> the toner-curve.raw file. That confuses me. What program are
> you using to do this correction?
>
> And once corrected, do I need to reprocess the .txt files
> and reinstall the curves?
>
> Thanks,
> David
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> ---------------------~-->
> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &  
> Canada.
> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ~->
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls  
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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>
>

>"thinking out loud"....
>why is Hahnemuhle  photorag 188  approximately
>5 times the price of Epson EEM ?

One of the issues is cotton/acid-free v. wood-based paper.  Wood it cheap
and may have some other advantages.  The people who want archival products,
however, are willing to pay more for the acid-free cotton paper.

Wood-based paper can also be "acid-free" and "archival," but it costs more
money to remove the lignin (the acid reserve) from the wood pulp.  (Cotton
has no lignin, so it is inherently more stable.)

From what I can tell, if the lignin in wood-based paper is reduced to 1% or
less, and if the alkaline buffer is 2% - 3%, then wood paper can stay acid
free and be archival.

Here is an ironic potential twist --

While acid has long been considered the main threat to long paper life,
atmospheric pollutants are now also one of the largest threats to our
prints.  There is some evidence that lignin absorbs a disproportionate
volume of atmospheric pollutants and might act something like a "pollution
buffer" for the paper.

"The wider the spot of light, the larger the circumference of darkness."

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_____________________________________



On Friday, November 14, 2003, at 11:00 AM, Tim Atherton wrote:

> Epson Wide Format
>
> They were answering a specific question about non archival tape in the
> packaging damaging large format sheets
>
> tim
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richard Sintchak [mailto:richcontaxg@...]
>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:56 AM
>> To: Tim Atherton
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnem\ufffdhle will be listening in
>>
>>
>>
>> Friday, November 14, 2003, 7:48:34 AM, you wrote:
>>
>> TA> Looks like Hahnem\ufffdhle Germany will be listening in to our
>> concerns...
>>
>> TA> they have just popped up on another group to answer some
>> questions and
>> TA> listed the groups they listen to. They missed this one... so
>> I put them on
>> TA> to it. (BTW they say they have fixed the William Turner flaking)
>>
>> TA> tim
>>
>> Which group did they pop up on?
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>>  Richard                            mailto:richard@...
>>
>>
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page
>> is at:
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
>> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
>> visiting this same page.
>>
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
>> messages to keep them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>> header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
>> various resources on the homepage.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-->
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> Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
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>



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Because it's about 10 times better?
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Magidson
<jef.jef@v...> wrote:
> "thinking out loud".... why is Hahnemuhle  photorag 188  approximately  
> 5 times the price of Epson EEM ?
> 
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 14, 2003, at 11:00 AM, Tim Atherton wrote:
> 
> > Epson Wide Format
> >
> > They were answering a specific question about non archival tape in the
> > packaging damaging large format sheets
> >
> > tim
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Richard Sintchak [mailto:richcontaxg@s...]
> >> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:56 AM
> >> To: Tim Atherton
> >> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemühle will be listening in
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Friday, November 14, 2003, 7:48:34 AM, you wrote:
> >>
> >> TA> Looks like Hahnemühle Germany will be listening in to our  
> >> concerns...
> >>
> >> TA> they have just popped up on another group to answer some  
> >> questions and
> >> TA> listed the groups they listen to. They missed this one... so
> >> I put them on
> >> TA> to it. (BTW they say they have fixed the William Turner flaking)
> >>
> >> TA> tim
> >>
> >> Which group did they pop up on?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Best regards,
> >>  Richard                            mailto:richard@c...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> >> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page  
> >> is at:
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> >> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
> >> visiting this same page.
> >>
> >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >> - Include your full name with your message.
> >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> >> messages to keep them short.
> >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject  
> >> header.
> >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames
> >> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> >> various resources on the homepage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  
> >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &  
> > Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> > ~->
> >
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> >
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> >
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> > this same page.
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to  

> > keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject  
> > header.
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> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the  
> > various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Roger, the toner-curve.raw you sent me offline worked great,
that was definitely the problem I was having, but two things 
about this message confused me.

1. You said "open the file in postscript"--you meant photoshop,
right? 

2. Once I've loaded the curve into the Curves dialog box, if I 
save it, it never prompts me for bit order, nor is "raw" a 
file format option in the Save dialog.

I'm running Photoshop 6... could that be why I don't have the 
option of saving raw etc?

david

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L 
Sopher" <rlsopher@c...> wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> I had the same thing happen with my 860 and the VM-sepia inkset. 
The
> toner-curve-raw supplied with the Linux version of QTR is for the 
Mac and
> has a different bit order than does the IBM-Linux version. If you 
wish I'll
> send you the Linux version. Essentially to make it you open the 
gray16.psd
> file in postscript, Open the curve function, load  toner-curve.acv 
then save

> the file as toner-curve.raw and choose the IBM bit order.
> 
> Roger
>

Whoops, I should have specified that I was on Linux. Sorry about
that. Roger sent me the toner-curve.raw that has the IBM bit
order and that solved the problem.

Thanks,
david

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
> David,
> 
> If you are using a Mac, I don't think the toner curve would be 
that far  
> off to require any adjustment.  Do you get a similar effect with 
the  
> sepia curve (orange)?  Are you sure all of the gray inks are 
firing  
> (nozzle checks OK)?
> 
> Carl
> On Friday, November 14, 2003, at 08:27  AM, David Wroblewski wrote:
> 
> > I've installed the UltraTone carts in my 2200 yesterday,
> > and after letting it sit for ~ 5 hours and doing about
> > 10 cleaning cycles, I started getting good nozzle checks.
> >
> > I've installed Carl's 2200 UT curves after commenting
> > out the linearization data.
> >
> > Now, when I print 21Step.tif, using any of the profiles
> > that mention toner-curve.raw, the output alternates between
> > gray steps and varying levels of blue toner rather than being
> > a smooth ramp. (When I print using the warm curve, which
> > does not use toner-curve.raw, the output is fine.)
> >
> > Is this the result of the Mac/IBM bit-order problem in
> > toner-curve.raw mentioned in other posts? If so, how do I
> > correct that file? The instructions I found were a little
> > cryptic, and had to do with opening the gray16 file, not
> > the toner-curve.raw file. That confuses me. What program are
> > you using to do this correction?
> >
> > And once corrected, do I need to reprocess the .txt files
> > and reinstall the curves?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > David
> >
> >
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Hi David,

I don't know about the differences between PS6 and PS7. Yes, I did mean
Photoshop - another senile moment I fear....

All of the following is for PS7 but give it a whirl in 6.

Ok, After you open the image you go to the toolbar, image, adjustments,
curves. Load the toner-curve.acv and click on Ok. Go back to the toolbar,
file, save as, rename the the file to toner-curve and select raw as the file
type, save - a new box will come up in which you can choose the bit order.
Choose IBM and click OK. It may bitch at you that some data can not be
saved, etc, ignore it and click on OK. That should produce the
toner-curve.raw file for you.

Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: David Wroblewski [mailto:dawroblewski@...]
  Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 2:54 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR - grayscale ramp scrambled w/Ultratone
curves


  Roger, the toner-curve.raw you sent me offline worked great,
  that was definitely the problem I was having, but two things
  about this message confused me.

  1. You said "open the file in postscript"--you meant photoshop,
  right?

  2. Once I've loaded the curve into the Curves dialog box, if I
  save it, it never prompts me for bit order, nor is "raw" a
  file format option in the Save dialog.

  I'm running Photoshop 6... could that be why I don't have the
  option of saving raw etc?

  david

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L
  Sopher" <rlsopher@c...> wrote:
  > Hi David,
  >
  > I had the same thing happen with my 860 and the VM-sepia inkset.
  The
  > toner-curve-raw supplied with the Linux version of QTR is for the
  Mac and
  > has a different bit order than does the IBM-Linux version. If you
  wish I'll
  > send you the Linux version. Essentially to make it you open the
  gray16.psd
  > file in postscript, Open the curve function, load  toner-curve.acv
  then save
  > the file as toner-curve.raw and choose the IBM bit order.
  >
  > Roger
  >



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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ah, great. That explains it. I thought I was supposed to save
a curve file, not an image file in raw mode.
Works fine in PS6.

Dense but persistent is my motto,
david

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L 
Sopher" <rlsopher@c...> wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> I don't know about the differences between PS6 and PS7. Yes, I did 
mean
> Photoshop - another senile moment I fear....
> 
> All of the following is for PS7 but give it a whirl in 6.
> 
> Ok, After you open the image you go to the toolbar, image, 
adjustments,
> curves. Load the toner-curve.acv and click on Ok. Go back to the 
toolbar,
> file, save as, rename the the file to toner-curve and select raw 
as the file
> type, save - a new box will come up in which you can choose the 
bit order.
> Choose IBM and click OK. It may bitch at you that some data can 
not be

> saved, etc, ignore it and click on OK. That should produce the
> toner-curve.raw file for you.
> 
> Roger

thx paul, that are the reasons why Hahnemühle is not cheaper than 
epson. absolutly correct.

But first, hi to all.
I´m Oliver from Hahnemühle Headquater Germany and sales representive 
for Germany.
I read severeal channels here in yahoo newsgroups, but it´s diffucult 
to handle for me. Because most people in here are from the states or 
UK and there we have subsideries. 
If there are any problems, you can contact them direct. 
Here are the contact numbers:

Hahnemühle USA, Inc.
41 Twosome Drive, Unit 6
P.O.Box 875
Moorestown NJ 08057-0865
phone: +1 856 6421410
Fax +1 8566421470
geninfo@...

Hahnemühle UK Ltd
Unit 11, Brunswick Park
Industrial Estate
London N11 1JL
phone: +44 208 2119600
fax     +44 208 368 1331
uksales@...

also your pleased to forward your comments to me or write in the 
channels, i will forward it to the correct persons.
dfa@hahnemuehle.de

!! our correct name is with an "e" after "u". dfa@...

best regards
Hahnemühle FineArt GmbH
Headquater Germany
Oliver Scheithauer

Ave.
Is there a subsidiary in Belgium?
Up to now I've only found rebranded Hahnemuehle's.
Thanks.


-- 
jean.verrept@...



on 17/11/2003 09:42, hahnemuehle_fineart at dfa@... wrote:

thx paul, that are the reasons why Hahnemühle is not cheaper than
epson. absolutly correct.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]