Digital BW, The Print

Mark, 
As usual, with your directness and honesty, you hit the nail on the head.  

I agree with your sentiments. I don't think you will find any "hard facts."  But the "one year in the window" test as published at the Inkjetmall.com site regarding PiezoBW inks is good enough for me.  Color inks are another issue.  

Also, archive your files and you could offer a replacement guarantee for some time period...say original purchaser's lifetime for instance.  If the print fades beyond recognition, just print it out again at that time...gratis.  Look them in the eye when you make a commitment like that.... 

I'll join you for that beer.  Nashville must have a good pub.

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Tucker 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:57 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] A Call for Standards (Permanence/Stability)


  (NOTE: This should also probably be labeled a Rant, but I 
  haven't written it yet, but it's early, and I'm hung over, and I just got 
  back from a long road trip and I've been shooting in a 
  MaxSecurity prison, so I'm feeling pretty raw and 
  impatient.-MT)(But not "raw" like "that"...)
  -----

  Road trips are good. Especially road trips away from computers 
  and television. For me, I tend to get back into the big picture, and 
  stop micro-managing so much.

  What's hit me about this list, and about the Epson9000 list, and I 
  guess the Piezo list too -- EVERYBODY just wants to know if their 
  prints are gonna last (not fade). They also want to know if they're 
  gonna shift color.

  How many months (years) have we spent on these lists trying to 
  figure this out? And in my eyes, we still don't have much of an 
  answer. Wilhelm has flown the coop, or he's sitting in a 
  mountain bunker somewhere with a window, a flourescent bulb, 
  a tungsten bulb, and some ozone -- who knows? And what about 
  these supposed tests at RIT? Does anybody have any info on 
  those?

  Personally, I'm ready to get on with it. I'm just at that point in my 
  life where I'd simply like to start making and selling prints, and I'd 
  like to shake a customer's hand and look them squarely in the 
  eye as I receive their check, and send them on their way feeling 
  solid and confident. (Right now, I honestly cannot do that). It 
  seems like for every positive post about a certain paper/ink 
  combination, there's another one a month later refuting those 
  results.

  I understand that quote that Clark Thomas published (4099), but 
  at the same time, there's a point when you've got to stop testing 
  and start printing. That time, for me, is now. I am prepared to buy 
  almost any printer, if I can only be assured with some sound 
  backup that the prints are chemically stable. Hell, I might even 
  take the grandest leap of all, and get a PC machine to run my 
  7000, if it turns out that Piezo is the most stable.

  In my (uninformed) eyes, the two finalists right now are:

  * Piezo inks on (?) paper.
  * Color Pigment inks on (?)

  I may be wrong. If I am, please correct me, and fill in the blanks 
  for the papers. I have tried to start databases on this list, to try to 
  get feedback from people on their success stories. That 
  information never comes -- that leads me to believe that damn 
  near everybody on this list is sitting on the sidelines, with that 
  same puckered-up feeling that I have, wondering to themselves, 
  "will my prints fade in five years?"

  I am looking for hard facts. Solid information. I guess sticking a 
  print in a window is OK, but I'd also like to hear from a chemist 
  also about chemical reactivity between certain inks and certain 
  paper coatings.

  I like this the people on this list and all, but kinda like AA -- at 
  some point, you just feel like you ought to be ready to "graduate" 
  from it, and get on with your life. I'd say our goal, as a group, 
  should be to some time get together for a beer, but NOT to have 
  to talk about anything related to print permanence.

  Restless,

  Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark wrote:

>...
>EVERYBODY just wants to know if their
>prints are gonna last (not fade). They also want to know if they're
>gonna shift color.

That's easy to answer.  They are going to fade and color shift.

Of course, it's all relative.  Depending on the multitude of factors, one
can limit the fading and color shifting significantly.  I'll publish the
fade test results that include my latest attempt at a more stable mix.  (The
test ends Monday.  So look for it Monday evening.)

Of course, my tests just give relative results in my fast, bright florescent
light fader.  I feel that such tests are better than nothing, and they are
about the only way to get results fast enough to have any value in our
lifetimes.  So, I'm going to base what I do on them regardless of the
uncertainties.

>... there's a point when you've got to stop testing
>and start printing. That time, for me, is now....

You know the current batch of pigments will warm shift.  So, just figure
that shift into your strategies and go for it.


>...I'd also like to hear from a chemist
>also about chemical reactivity between certain inks and certain
>paper coatings.

Don't hold your breath.  Epson is your best shot with this, and you can see
what we got with the EAM "response" (almost none).

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:> Don't hold your breath.  Epson is your 
best shot with this, and you can see
> what we got with the EAM "response" (almost none).


If I had money on the table (which I do), I'd venture a guess that 
these are the most stable (at least on watercolor paper, which 
seems to rule out Nollendorf's dyes, which work well on those 
Ilford papers):

* Piezo B/W
* Piezo Color Pigments
* Epson Pigments in the 10000

Like Tyler says, I think I've gotta stick with color inks, due to the 
nature of my toning. So that rules out PiezoB/W. The pigments in 
the 10000 have supposed "reduced" metamerism. Jon's have 
supposed "no" metamerism. I don't know who to look for to try to 
determine print life; you sure couldn't trust the company who 
makes them to tell you the truth. But I think I'd trust Jon before I'd 
trust Epson.

At this point, I'd even settle for any amount of metamerism, and 
just learn to live with it, and profile for it. 

I'd almost feel better selling a print to someone and telling them 
that the print was made for indoor, subdued tungsten lighting, 
rather than telling them that the print might (read: will) fade. The 
whole subdued lighting thing is commonplace and already 
accepted in the gallery world, so I think I could deal with 
metamerism easier than fading.

The whole approach of upfront-offering them a free replacement 
print just makes me weak in the knees. Somehow I feel like a 
Yugo Dealer; "We build them out of aluminum cans, but we'll fix it 
for free, EVERY single time it breaks!" That really inspires 
confidence, huh...? Makes me wanna go shopping for a cheap 
suit.

-M.Tucker

On 10/13/01 10:38 AM, "Mark Tucker" <mark@...> wrote:

> you sure couldn't trust the company who
> makes them to tell you the truth. But I think I'd trust Jon before I'd
> trust Epson.

You can say that again.  I have an Epson 1270 print (you know "the archival
dyes") printed on their Epson Heavyweight Matte paper...was that 50...or was
it 100 years...well the print is about half its original intensity and it
has been 1 year in a very dark studio!  I have another 1270 print that was
output on concord rag...that print was made in April and has been in a
slightly brighter bedroom...the image is almost completely invisible.
That's why we need pigments AND someone to test them.

Robert


----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Mark,

If you use a 100% Cotton rag paper that is acid free and pH neutral, and
archival pigment inks, you are very 
likely to make prints that won't fade or shift in your lifetime under
NORMAL low light viewing conditions.

If a customer ever comes back to you and says the print faded, it
wouldn't cost you but a very few dollars to reprint it for him. Build
this possible scenario into the cost of the print when you sell it. I
think that is about as good as we can do at the present time.

But I WOULD be wary of any paper that flaked off within a few hours of
printing. This indicates a faulty coating, and the print just might
flake off all by itself, even under glass. If you use such a paper, I'd
spray it with some acrylic coating. I've used the Krylon Acrylic spray
for oil and acrylic paintings for about 30 years and none have changed
color in the least. I don't use it to keep the print from fading, but to
protect it a little bit in case of handling or shuffling. I don't know
if it helps fading any.

Jerry





Mark Tucker wrote:

> 
> (NOTE: This should also probably be labeled a Rant, but I
> haven't written it yet, but it's early, and I'm hung over, and I just got
> back from a long road trip and I've been shooting in a
> MaxSecurity prison, so I'm feeling pretty raw and
> impatient.-MT)(But not "raw" like "that"...)
> -----
> 
> Road trips are good. Especially road trips away from computers
> and television. For me, I tend to get back into the big picture, and
> stop micro-managing so much.
> 
> What's hit me about this list, and about the Epson9000 list, and I
> guess the Piezo list too -- EVERYBODY just wants to know if their
> prints are gonna last (not fade). They also want to know if they're
> gonna shift color.
> 
> How many months (years) have we spent on these lists trying to
> figure this out? And in my eyes, we still don't have much of an
> answer. Wilhelm has flown the coop, or he's sitting in a
> mountain bunker somewhere with a window, a flourescent bulb,
> a tungsten bulb, and some ozone -- who knows? And what about
> these supposed tests at RIT? Does anybody have any info on
> those?
> 
> Personally, I'm ready to get on with it. I'm just at that point in my
> life where I'd simply like to start making and selling prints, and I'd
> like to shake a customer's hand and look them squarely in the
> eye as I receive their check, and send them on their way feeling
> solid and confident. (Right now, I honestly cannot do that). It
> seems like for every positive post about a certain paper/ink
> combination, there's another one a month later refuting those
> results.
> 
> I understand that quote that Clark Thomas published (4099), but
> at the same time, there's a point when you've got to stop testing
> and start printing. That time, for me, is now. I am prepared to buy
> almost any printer, if I can only be assured with some sound
> backup that the prints are chemically stable. Hell, I might even
> take the grandest leap of all, and get a PC machine to run my
> 7000, if it turns out that Piezo is the most stable.
> 
> In my (uninformed) eyes, the two finalists right now are:
> 
> * Piezo inks on (?) paper.
> * Color Pigment inks on (?)
> 
> I may be wrong. If I am, please correct me, and fill in the blanks
> for the papers. I have tried to start databases on this list, to try to
> get feedback from people on their success stories. That
> information never comes -- that leads me to believe that damn
> near everybody on this list is sitting on the sidelines, with that
> same puckered-up feeling that I have, wondering to themselves,
> "will my prints fade in five years?"
> 
> I am looking for hard facts. Solid information. I guess sticking a
> print in a window is OK, but I'd also like to hear from a chemist
> also about chemical reactivity between certain inks and certain
> paper coatings.
> 
> I like this the people on this list and all, but kinda like AA -- at
> some point, you just feel like you ought to be ready to "graduate"
> from it, and get on with your life. I'd say our goal, as a group,
> should be to some time get together for a beer, but NOT to have
> to talk about anything related to print permanence.
> 
> Restless,
> 
> Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
> 
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Well what do you do when a customer buys a chromogenic or R print? Do
they ask if the colors will fade, how long they will last before fading,
or anything like that? Isn't it ONLY us inkjet people who even THINK of this?

Jerry




Tyler Boley wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
> Couple of quick comments-
> snip
> ...I'd
> > like to shake a customer's hand and look them squarely in the
> > eye as I receive their check, and send them on their way feeling
> > solid and confident. (Right now, I honestly cannot do that)
> 
> And you haven't been able to do that ever, I don't think it's gonna haapen anytime soon. I'd make a commitment now to
> something anyway, and get on with it.
> 
> Snip...
> I am prepared to buy
> > almost any printer, if I can only be assured with some sound
> > backup that the prints are chemically stable.
> 
> I just don't think there's anyone out there willing to assure anyone of any particular longevity.
> 
> > In my (uninformed) eyes, the two finalists right now are:
> >
> > * Piezo inks on (?) paper.
> > * Color Pigment inks on (?)
> >
> For the toned monochromatic look of the images on your site, it seems to me you're stuck with color inks. If you switch to
> pigments like generations you'll be back into the metamerism problem, though people who insist you get on board with
> pigments will be happy. Cone's pigs supposedly don't have the problem, but do have others. The Indelible inks just never
> seem to actually come out, or no one is buying them and reporting, or their results aren't very good and they aren't
> posting, and we don't know if they have metamerism or clogging. The only post I've seen says the black is only slightly
> denser than Piezocolor black. Someone said they dipped a Royal Plush print in saltwater and hung it out in the hot sun for a
> long time before any fading showed up, so they might last, but you still don't have any  hard info.
> 
> > ...that
> > same puckered-up feeling
> 
> I've had that since I first got a computer, or did Mom do it?
> >
> > I am looking for hard facts. Solid information.
> 
> It's not there.
> 
> > I like this the people on this list and all, but kinda like AA -- at
> > some point, you just feel like you ought to be ready to "graduate"
> > from it, and get on with your life.
> 
> And your printing. At a certain point when everything starts working, I do tend to just get on with my work and post less. I
> think it's only natural. I see issues come up I may have an opinion to offer, but someone will ask the same question again in
> a week, or some post will be made that indicates the same info needs to be restated. I think or hope new "old" people will
> help new people, etc..
> I honestly think, you have to make the best choice you can and get on with it and simply tell your customers what you can,
> keeping your eyes open for something new to come along. You'll keep changing inks and paper with testing, it becomes
> totally comsuming, and you have a worldwide group of people affirming that behaviour right here on the net.
> What threw you off, I thought you were happy with the prints you were getting?
> Tyler
> on the road, but unfortunately with a computer
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mark,  

  Here is a case where I completely disagree with you.  

  Quality products usually cost more. And quality providers generally offer some type of guarantee or warranty or commitment to quality.  The type of "warranty" I am speaking of reminds me more of a Mercedes than a Yugo. 

  If an artist sells a piece of artwork, that is what the buyer is buying.  The image, the form, the creativity expressed.  

  If there is any questions on the part of the buyer about longevity,  I think the photographer who does not "back up" his print (if sold as archival) is the one to suspect and not buy from. ON the other hand if a photographer told me he used the best, most expensive archival materials available (for the medium) and...AND...told me that he was satisfied that the print/image would last my lifetime...I would have increased confidence.  If this photographer also told me that if the image faded to oblivion (not necessarily the same as tone or color shift or even yellowing of paper in sunlight) and that he would replace the print for me during my lifetime...a lifetime warranty...I would have "no argument" and would buy the print with his assurance.  

  I cannot think of a better way to "warranty" the image/print than to offer to replace it if needed.  That is standing behind your work.  I see nothing "cheap suit" about that.  

  Of course the buyer should consider the source too.  If buying at a sidewalk art fair from a guy that looks "fly by night" I would not have a great sense of security.  IF on the other hand the photographer was an established professional (as you are) or a "local" artist, I would feel more secure in the transaction.  If the guy is traveling from town to town in a RV selling prints...it may be a harder  judgement call on the buyers part.

  Regards but Disagreement with your position. 

  Steadman

  Mark Wrote: (SNIP)


  The whole approach of upfront-offering them a free replacement 
  print just makes me weak in the knees. Somehow I feel like a 
  Yugo Dealer; "We build them out of aluminum cans, but we'll fix it 
  for free, EVERY single time it breaks!" That really inspires 
  confidence, huh...? Makes me wanna go shopping for a cheap 
  suit.

  -M.Tucker





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark Tucker wrote:

>[snip] If I had money on the table (which I do), I'd venture a guess that
>these are the most stable (at least on watercolor paper, which
>seems to rule out Nollendorf's dyes, which work well on those
>Ilford papers):
>
>* Piezo B/W
>* Piezo Color Pigments
>* Epson Pigments in the 10000
>
>Like Tyler says, I think I've gotta stick with color inks, due to the
>nature of my toning. So that rules out PiezoB/W. The pigments in
>the 10000 have supposed "reduced" metamerism. [snip]

Aren't they also supposed to have less in the 5500? And isn't it 
supposed to be due to revisions in the driver? (I thought instead of, 
rather than in addition to, changes in the inks?)

Incidentally, I think it's also been said on the other lists that the 
5500 prints well in BW at 2880 dpi.

Sam

Good Afternoon All,

I have been in the photography business for over 35 years.  Very seldom do
people ask how long a print will last.  In fact if the conversation does
mention longevity, I say yes this color, "B & W", print will fade. We
explain that it depends upon how, where, etc. it is displayed. When, I don't
know, we are doing all that we know how to do and using the best process and
materials that are available.  Will I replace it if it does, of course I
will. When I started in this family business, all we did was B& W. When we
started offering color prints, which looked horrible, I begged them to buy a
B & W print so they would have a print that would last. I don't think they
would have taken a B & W print if  I had given it to them. They would say
that color looks so much better than B & W.
We have a responsibly to do the best we can with what we have. We can't make
the paper, ink etc, and I will advise you of this, if you keep waiting for
perfection, you will not be around to sell anything in this business.
There was a photographer in this city, who with his wife produced some of
the best B & W and oil tinted B & W prints that I have ever seen. He felt
that he was doing his clients a disservice to offer a medium that was not up
to his standards. His clients were the more wealthy in this town, they
deserted him and he went BROKE!
Every thing fades, your auto, the drapes, the carpet, even the Sistine
Chapel. Now I ask you, when the aforementioned items faded, do you think
they were replaced at no cost to the owner?
Most of us in this business realize the importance, "emotions", of what we
do, that is why we try to replace the photograph that we produced at no
charge.
I realize that most of you are producing art and not every day portraits.
But from a business standpoint we are all in the same boat. If this is to
far off topic I apologize.

Regards,

John in Okc

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Permanence/Stability)


:   Mark,
:
:   Here is a case where I completely disagree with you.
:
:   Quality products usually cost more. And quality providers generally
offer some type of guarantee or warranty or commitment to quality.  The type
of "warranty" I am speaking of reminds me more of a Mercedes than a Yugo.
:
:   If an artist sells a piece of artwork, that is what the buyer is buying.
The image, the form, the creativity expressed.
:
:   If there is any questions on the part of the buyer about longevity,  I
think the photographer who does not "back up" his print (if sold as
archival) is the one to suspect and not buy from. ON the other hand if a
photographer told me he used the best, most expensive archival materials
available (for the medium) and...AND...told me that he was satisfied that
the print/image would last my lifetime...I would have increased confidence.
If this photographer also told me that if the image faded to oblivion (not
necessarily the same as tone or color shift or even yellowing of paper in
sunlight) and that he would replace the print for me during my lifetime...a
lifetime warranty...I would have "no argument" and would buy the print with
his assurance.
:
:   I cannot think of a better way to "warranty" the image/print than to
offer to replace it if needed.  That is standing behind your work.  I see
nothing "cheap suit" about that.
:
:   Of course the buyer should consider the source too.  If buying at a
sidewalk art fair from a guy that looks "fly by night" I would not have a
great sense of security.  IF on the other hand the photographer was an
established professional (as you are) or a "local" artist, I would feel more
secure in the transaction.  If the guy is traveling from town to town in a
RV selling prints...it may be a harder  judgement call on the buyers part.
:
:   Regards but Disagreement with your position.
:
:   Steadman
:
:   Mark Wrote: (SNIP)
:
:
:   The whole approach of upfront-offering them a free replacement
:   print just makes me weak in the knees. Somehow I feel like a
:   Yugo Dealer; "We build them out of aluminum cans, but we'll fix it
:   for free, EVERY single time it breaks!" That really inspires
:   confidence, huh...? Makes me wanna go shopping for a cheap
:   suit.
:
:   -M.Tucker
:
:
:
:
:
:         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
:               ADVERTISEMENT
:
:
:
:
:   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
:
:   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
:
:   Please follow these basic guidelines:
:   - Include your full name with your message.
:   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
:   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
:   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
:   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
:   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
:   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
:
:
:
:
:   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
:
:
:
: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
:
:
:
: Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
:
: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
:
: Please follow these basic guidelines:
: - Include your full name with your message.
: - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
: - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
: - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
: - Complete your Yahoo profile.
: - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
:
:
:
:
: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
:
:

John, 
Thanks for posting.  

But I missed your point about the guy with high standards and why his client (wealthy) left him.  Is it because they wanted color and he did not provide color?  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JackG 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:35 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Permanence/Stability)


  Good Afternoon All,

  I have been in the photography business for over 35 years.  Very seldom do
  people ask how long a print will last.  In fact if the conversation does
  mention longevity, I say yes this color, "B & W", print will fade. We
  explain that it depends upon how, where, etc. it is displayed. When, I don't
  know, we are doing all that we know how to do and using the best process and
  materials that are available.  Will I replace it if it does, of course I
  will. When I started in this family business, all we did was B& W. When we
  started offering color prints, which looked horrible, I begged them to buy a
  B & W print so they would have a print that would last. I don't think they
  would have taken a B & W print if  I had given it to them. They would say
  that color looks so much better than B & W.
  We have a responsibly to do the best we can with what we have. We can't make
  the paper, ink etc, and I will advise you of this, if you keep waiting for
  perfection, you will not be around to sell anything in this business.
  There was a photographer in this city, who with his wife produced some of
  the best B & W and oil tinted B & W prints that I have ever seen. He felt
  that he was doing his clients a disservice to offer a medium that was not up
  to his standards. His clients were the more wealthy in this town, they
  deserted him and he went BROKE!
  Every thing fades, your auto, the drapes, the carpet, even the Sistine
  Chapel. Now I ask you, when the aforementioned items faded, do you think
  they were replaced at no cost to the owner?
  Most of us in this business realize the importance, "emotions", of what we
  do, that is why we try to replace the photograph that we produced at no
  charge.
  I realize that most of you are producing art and not every day portraits.
  But from a business standpoint we are all in the same boat. If this is to
  far off topic I apologize.

  Regards,

  John in Okc
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Permanence/Stability)


  :   Mark,
  :
  :   Here is a case where I completely disagree with you.
  :
  :   Quality products usually cost more. And quality providers generally
  offer some type of guarantee or warranty or commitment to quality.  The type
  of "warranty" I am speaking of reminds me more of a Mercedes than a Yugo.
  :
  :   If an artist sells a piece of artwork, that is what the buyer is buying.
  The image, the form, the creativity expressed.
  :
  :   If there is any questions on the part of the buyer about longevity,  I
  think the photographer who does not "back up" his print (if sold as
  archival) is the one to suspect and not buy from. ON the other hand if a
  photographer told me he used the best, most expensive archival materials
  available (for the medium) and...AND...told me that he was satisfied that
  the print/image would last my lifetime...I would have increased confidence.
  If this photographer also told me that if the image faded to oblivion (not
  necessarily the same as tone or color shift or even yellowing of paper in
  sunlight) and that he would replace the print for me during my lifetime...a
  lifetime warranty...I would have "no argument" and would buy the print with
  his assurance.
  :
  :   I cannot think of a better way to "warranty" the image/print than to
  offer to replace it if needed.  That is standing behind your work.  I see
  nothing "cheap suit" about that.
  :
  :   Of course the buyer should consider the source too.  If buying at a
  sidewalk art fair from a guy that looks "fly by night" I would not have a
  great sense of security.  IF on the other hand the photographer was an
  established professional (as you are) or a "local" artist, I would feel more
  secure in the transaction.  If the guy is traveling from town to town in a
  RV selling prints...it may be a harder  judgement call on the buyers part.
  :
  :   Regards but Disagreement with your position.
  :
  :   Steadman
  :
  :   Mark Wrote: (SNIP)
  :
  :
  :   The whole approach of upfront-offering them a free replacement
  :   print just makes me weak in the knees. Somehow I feel like a
  :   Yugo Dealer; "We build them out of aluminum cans, but we'll fix it
  :   for free, EVERY single time it breaks!" That really inspires
  :   confidence, huh...? Makes me wanna go shopping for a cheap
  :   suit.
  :
  :   -M.Tucker
  :
  :
  :
  :
  :
  :         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jack,

Well said and I agree with you. I gave up encouraging friends and 
family to have some B&W prints made of their weddings years ago. The 
entire archival issue has gotten out of hand. We need have a response 
ready if the question comes up and get on with it.

If someone can't do that and be comfortable with it, I honestly think 
the only alternative is to back to silver prints. This does not mean 
giving up digital but giving up inkjet.

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "JackG" <jackg@p...> wrote:
> Good Afternoon All,
> 
> I have been in the photography business for over 35 years.  Very 
seldom do
> people ask how long a print will last.  In fact if the conversation 
does
> mention longevity, I say yes this color, "B & W", print will fade. 
We
> explain that it depends upon how, where, etc. it is displayed. 
When, I don't
> know, we are doing all that we know how to do and using the best 
process and
> materials that are available.  Will I replace it if it does, of 
course I
> will. When I started in this family business, all we did was B& W. 
When we
> started offering color prints, which looked horrible, I begged them 
to buy a
> B & W print so they would have a print that would last. I don't 
think they
> would have taken a B & W print if  I had given it to them. They 
would say
> that color looks so much better than B & W.
> We have a responsibly to do the best we can with what we have. We 
can't make
> the paper, ink etc, and I will advise you of this, if you keep 
waiting for
> perfection, you will not be around to sell anything in this 
business.
> There was a photographer in this city, who with his wife produced 
some of
> the best B & W and oil tinted B & W prints that I have ever seen. 
He felt
> that he was doing his clients a disservice to offer a medium that 
was not up
> to his standards. His clients were the more wealthy in this town, 
they
> deserted him and he went BROKE!
> Every thing fades, your auto, the drapes, the carpet, even the 
Sistine
> Chapel. Now I ask you, when the aforementioned items faded, do you 
think
> they were replaced at no cost to the owner?
> Most of us in this business realize the importance, "emotions", of 
what we
> do, that is why we try to replace the photograph that we produced 
at no
> charge.
> I realize that most of you are producing art and not every day 
portraits.
> But from a business standpoint we are all in the same boat. If this 
is to
> far off topic I apologize.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John in Okc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards 
(Permanence/Stability)
> 
> 
> :   Mark,
> :
> :   Here is a case where I completely disagree with you.
> :
> :   Quality products usually cost more. And quality providers 
generally
> offer some type of guarantee or warranty or commitment to quality.  
The type
> of "warranty" I am speaking of reminds me more of a Mercedes than a 
Yugo.
> :
> :   If an artist sells a piece of artwork, that is what the buyer 
is buying.
> The image, the form, the creativity expressed.
> :
> :   If there is any questions on the part of the buyer about 
longevity,  I
> think the photographer who does not "back up" his print (if sold as
> archival) is the one to suspect and not buy from. ON the other hand 
if a
> photographer told me he used the best, most expensive archival 
materials
> available (for the medium) and...AND...told me that he was 
satisfied that
> the print/image would last my lifetime...I would have increased 
confidence.
> If this photographer also told me that if the image faded to 
oblivion (not
> necessarily the same as tone or color shift or even yellowing of 
paper in
> sunlight) and that he would replace the print for me during my 
lifetime...a
> lifetime warranty...I would have "no argument" and would buy the 
print with
> his assurance.
> :
> :   I cannot think of a better way to "warranty" the image/print 
than to
> offer to replace it if needed.  That is standing behind your work.  
I see
> nothing "cheap suit" about that.
> :
> :   Of course the buyer should consider the source too.  If buying 
at a
> sidewalk art fair from a guy that looks "fly by night" I would not 
have a
> great sense of security.  IF on the other hand the photographer was 
an
> established professional (as you are) or a "local" artist, I would 
feel more
> secure in the transaction.  If the guy is traveling from town to 
town in a
> RV selling prints...it may be a harder  judgement call on the 
buyers part.
> :
> :   Regards but Disagreement with your position.
> :
> :   Steadman
> :
> :   Mark Wrote: (SNIP)
> :
> :
> :   The whole approach of upfront-offering them a free replacement
> :   print just makes me weak in the knees. Somehow I feel like a
> :   Yugo Dealer; "We build them out of aluminum cans, but we'll fix 
it
> :   for free, EVERY single time it breaks!" That really inspires
> :   confidence, huh...? Makes me wanna go shopping for a cheap
> :   suit.
> :
> :   -M.Tucker
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> :               ADVERTISEMENT
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> :
> :   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> :
> :   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> :   - Include your full name with your message.
> :   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> :   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to
> keep them short.
> :   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject
> header.
> :   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> :   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> :   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the various
> resources on the homepage.
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.
> :
> :
> :
> : [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> :
> :
> :
> : Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> :
> : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> :
> : Please follow these basic guidelines:
> : - Include your full name with your message.
> : - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> : - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> : - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> : - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> : - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> : - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> :
> :
> :
> :
> : Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> :
> :

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
>   I cannot think of a better way to "warranty" the image/print than 
to offer to replace it if needed.  That is standing behind your work.  
I see nothing "cheap suit" about that.


Steadman,

Just to be clear, I would certainly make another print for 
someone if their print faded. No question about that. That would 
be automatic.

But my point was that it just seems so shaky to sell someone a 
print that you know is "iffy" right out of the gate. Even when a 
used car salesman tells me that a car will probably need brakes 
soon, I'm still a bit miffed when they go out so quickly. And even if 
he fixed the brakes for free, I've still gotta carry the car back over 
to him, wait around, yada yada.

I agree with most people who've responded that it's not perfect 
now, nor will it probably be perfect in the near future. All I'm trying 
to do is find the VERY best solution that exists today, and to try to 
have some hard evidence to back up my decision. And then to 
pick that and get to work.

In addition, until I get some degree of certainty about about a 
lifespan of these prints, the prices I charge for these will remain 
very low. I just couldn't feel good about putting this type of print 
alongside an archivally-processed B/W silver print.

I'm sorry if I've belabored this point. I assume that Martin's 
comment in Message 4152 is directed toward me. If so, I'll be on 
my way. I'm just shocked that more people aren't concerned with 
this issue. It's one of the main reasons that inkjet prints can get 
NO respect in the gallery world. I personally think there's a good 
bit of "The Emperor's Clothes" going on with inkjet; everybody's 
just printing away, thinking everything's fine and good, but 
nobody knows FOR SURE about the behavior of their materials, 
and the town's citizens snicker a bit when they walk by the 
window of the inkjet print shop. Conversation overheard on the 
sidewalk: "Are you in line to buy a print?" "No, I'm 
in the line to have mine remade..."

on 10/14/01 12:23 AM, Mark Tucker wrote:

> I'm just shocked that more people aren't concerned with
> this issue.

Mark 

All of us are as concerned with this as you are, perhaps we've just been
discussing it longer, and have made our peace with it by now.

How ya gonna know what's best? There are just too many variables at play,
and many of these products haven't been on the market long enough to have
yielded meaningful records yet.

I could list products in descending order of how long I expect them to last,
but I won't because I'm likely to be wrong, and it's a disservice to those
products my guesses underestimate. You should be leery of all estimates of
life expectancy because they are all based upon tests over a very limited
period of time and environmental conditions. Yes that sounds like that
implies that they are fugitive, but who knows, we may find some of these
inkjet prints will outlive silver in the long run! It's possible.

I think one has to be willing to approach this with it's uncertainty, or not
take it on at all. You have to be willing to make and sell an inkjet print
the same way an artist is willing to make and sell a water color; they know
it's fragile, but it gives their work a character that they can't get with
oils. So even though it might not last as long as an oil painting, they do
it anyway, because it's wonderful for what it IS.

That said, my integrity tells me to use the materials I guess will last the
longest, while still allowing me to work in a medium I enjoy. My guess is
that the carbon quads fit that bill for me, but that is not an endorsement,
as your guess is as good as mine.

Sorry I can't offer you more comfort. It's kinda like current affairs: there
is the possibility of imminent threat, but you're best served by carrying on
with a sense of normalcy. That may sound weak, risky, and ironic, but so is
modernity, so is life.

Maybe Martin's didn't go far enough; if you want the longest life span, you
should do platinum prints.

But is longevity really the end all?

Todd

Paul,

Is there any way that you could get a silver print of a test wedge and fade
it side by side with a piezo or MIS test wedge that you consider to be the
most stable combination?  That seems like the only way we are going to get
the data that we need.  I've thought about doing it for a while...but your
light/scanning system is better than what I have access to.  Ink jet to ink
jet comparisons are useful...but I really think we need to know where we
stand relative to the industry standard (that is...if there is one).

Robert

On 10/13/01 9:23 PM, "Mark Tucker" <mark@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
> <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
>>   I cannot think of a better way to "warranty" the image/print than
> to offer to replace it if needed.  That is standing behind your work.
> I see nothing "cheap suit" about that.
> 
> 
> Steadman,
> 
> Just to be clear, I would certainly make another print for
> someone if their print faded. No question about that. That would
> be automatic.
> 
> But my point was that it just seems so shaky to sell someone a
> print that you know is "iffy" right out of the gate. Even when a
> used car salesman tells me that a car will probably need brakes
> soon, I'm still a bit miffed when they go out so quickly. And even if
> he fixed the brakes for free, I've still gotta carry the car back over
> to him, wait around, yada yada.
> 
> I agree with most people who've responded that it's not perfect
> now, nor will it probably be perfect in the near future. All I'm trying
> to do is find the VERY best solution that exists today, and to try to
> have some hard evidence to back up my decision. And then to
> pick that and get to work.
> 
> In addition, until I get some degree of certainty about about a
> lifespan of these prints, the prices I charge for these will remain
> very low. I just couldn't feel good about putting this type of print
> alongside an archivally-processed B/W silver print.
> 
> I'm sorry if I've belabored this point. I assume that Martin's
> comment in Message 4152 is directed toward me. If so, I'll be on
> my way. I'm just shocked that more people aren't concerned with
> this issue. It's one of the main reasons that inkjet prints can get
> NO respect in the gallery world. I personally think there's a good
> bit of "The Emperor's Clothes" going on with inkjet; everybody's
> just printing away, thinking everything's fine and good, but
> nobody knows FOR SURE about the behavior of their materials,
> and the town's citizens snicker a bit when they walk by the
> window of the inkjet print shop. Conversation overheard on the
> sidewalk: "Are you in line to buy a print?" "No, I'm
> in the line to have mine remade..."
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

I enter this thread by saying that I use the Library of Congress standard for archival life, which is 100
years.

Next I will say that it is really still too early in this very young technology to know how long *any* of
these inks and papers combinations will last.  There is an international
'committee' (made up of various manufacturers, technology groups etc. (and I think govts.) that has set out to
study this very complex problem and is trying to  set up international
standards.  They have broken the study up into various sub committees to study each aspect.  These
subcommittees are:
1: Water Fastness
2: Humidity Fastness
3: Thermal Degredation/Dark Stability
4: Indoor Light Stability
5: Outdoor Light Stability
6: Fingerprint Test
7: Other brittleness and Image Analysis
8: Gas Fading

The above includes the studies of papers, including (but not limited to): coatings, brighteners, rag and other
content, acid levels and buffering agents...And how these all react with
inks...Both pigment and dye.

The earliest indications are that the paper needs to be acid free and contain as little buffering agents as
possible (this would leave out any wood pulp papers, and but would include
100% rag papers).  The papers should not contain *any* optical brighteners, as they are inherently unstable.
And that it appears that the only stable ink materials are pigment, but that
when they get the pigments small enough to fit in inkjet printers, the pigmnts start to react more like
unstable dyes (having something to do with decreasing the mass of the particle to its
surface area.

The above stated, I put forth the following:

The only acceptable papers that I presently know of are:
Crane's Museo
Epson's, Fine Art Smooth (made by Crane for Epson)
Hawk Mountain's top line of papers (I'm sorry, but I don't have the specific name of their best papers).

They are all 100% rag, acid free, have minimal calcium carbonate buffering agents, are coated for inkjet ink
acceptance, and have no optical brighteners.

Also:  The most stable inks are 100% pigment.  There are a few different ones out there, the most promising
being the 'Indelible Ink' line, which has the best gamut and shows the
smallest amount of metamerism.  I have seen them, they look good.  I don't have any test results regarding
their stability, beyond tests performed by the beta testers.  Some of the beta
testers have a great deal of knowledge in the inkjet/paper field.

Stability?  Longevity?  Archival?  Too soon to know.  At this point, all we can go with is our best guess, and
wait and see.  All the desires in the world will not answer our questions any
sooner...The problem with being in the forefront of a new technology.

An interesting read is the thesis: 'Stability Issues and Test Methods for Ink Jet Materials, Barbara Vogt,
Department of Image Engineering, University of Applied Science, Cologne'

The URL of the 62 page PDF is:
http://www.geocities.com/mortenryhl/index.html


Harvey Ferdschneider
Partner, SKID Photography, NYC

Martin,

Sounds like you and I are a mutual admiration society. <G>

Regards,

John in Okc

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 9:33 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Permanence/Stability)


: Jack,
: 
: Well said and I agree with you. I gave up encouraging friends and 
: family to have some B&W prints made of their weddings years ago. The 
: entire archival issue has gotten out of hand. We need have a response 
: ready if the question comes up and get on with it.
: 
: If someone can't do that and be comfortable with it, I honestly think 
: the only alternative is to back to silver prints. This does not mean 
: giving up digital but giving up inkjet.
: 
: Martin
: 
: 
: 
<big snip>

>[snip] In addition, until I get some degree of certainty about about a
>lifespan of these prints, the prices I charge for these will remain
>very low. I just couldn't feel good about putting this type of print
>alongside an archivally-processed B/W silver print. [snip]

What is a good reference to what "an archivally-processed B/W silver 
print" is, what its longevity is, and how that was estimated? Is it 
in Wilhelm's book? I remember him saying something on his web page 
about Crystal Archive prints being a standard (60 Wilhelm years I 
believe) inkjet prints should strive for, but I think those are color 
prints?

Sam

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> Stability?  Longevity?  Archival?  Too soon to know.  At this 
point, all we can go with is our best guess, and
> wait and see.


This is under Epson's feature list for the pigmented ink version 
of the Epson 10000. I also could not find any other information 
under that URL that they send you to for further info. 

<snip>

Using our newest EPSON Archival Ink Technology, your prints 
will not only look brilliant, but have a lightfastness rating up to 
200 years under glass.**


** Ink lightfastness rating, based on accelerated testing of prints 
on specialty media, displayed indoors, under glass. Actual print 
stability will vary according to ink, media, printer engine, printed 
image, display conditions, light intensity, humidity, and 
atmospheric conditions. Epson does not guarantee longevity of 
prints. For maximum print life, display all prints under glass or 
lamination or properly store them. For the latest in lightfastness 
information, refer to www.prographics.epson.com.

</snip>

Yes! Not much of a GUARANTEE really!

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...]
> Sent: 14 October 2001 14:36
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Permanence/Stability)
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
> <skid@b...> wrote:
> > Stability?  Longevity?  Archival?  Too soon to know.  At this 
> point, all we can go with is our best guess, and
> > wait and see.
> 
> 
> This is under Epson's feature list for the pigmented ink version 
> of the Epson 10000. I also could not find any other information 
> under that URL that they send you to for further info. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Using our newest EPSON Archival Ink Technology, your prints 
> will not only look brilliant, but have a lightfastness rating up to 
> 200 years under glass.**
> 
> 
> ** Ink lightfastness rating, based on accelerated testing of prints 
> on specialty media, displayed indoors, under glass. Actual print 
> stability will vary according to ink, media, printer engine, printed 
> image, display conditions, light intensity, humidity, and 
> atmospheric conditions. Epson does not guarantee longevity of 
> prints. For maximum print life, display all prints under glass or 
> lamination or properly store them. For the latest in lightfastness 
> information, refer to www.prographics.epson.com.
> 
> </snip>
>

Todd, 

Another excellent post.  That one should go into the forum archives for future reference (Martin?)  I have not seen it put better.

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (The End)


  on 10/14/01 12:23 AM, Mark Tucker wrote:

  > I'm just shocked that more people aren't concerned with
  > this issue.

  Mark 

  All of us are as concerned with this as you are, perhaps we've just been
  discussing it longer, and have made our peace with it by now.

  How ya gonna know what's best? There are just too many variables at play,
  and many of these products haven't been on the market long enough to have
  yielded meaningful records yet.

  I could list products in descending order of how long I expect them to last,
  but I won't because I'm likely to be wrong, and it's a disservice to those
  products my guesses underestimate. You should be leery of all estimates of
  life expectancy because they are all based upon tests over a very limited
  period of time and environmental conditions. Yes that sounds like that
  implies that they are fugitive, but who knows, we may find some of these
  inkjet prints will outlive silver in the long run! It's possible.

  I think one has to be willing to approach this with it's uncertainty, or not
  take it on at all. You have to be willing to make and sell an inkjet print
  the same way an artist is willing to make and sell a water color; they know
  it's fragile, but it gives their work a character that they can't get with
  oils. So even though it might not last as long as an oil painting, they do
  it anyway, because it's wonderful for what it IS.

  That said, my integrity tells me to use the materials I guess will last the
  longest, while still allowing me to work in a medium I enjoy. My guess is
  that the carbon quads fit that bill for me, but that is not an endorsement,
  as your guess is as good as mine.

  Sorry I can't offer you more comfort. It's kinda like current affairs: there
  is the possibility of imminent threat, but you're best served by carrying on
  with a sense of normalcy. That may sound weak, risky, and ironic, but so is
  modernity, so is life.

  Maybe Martin's didn't go far enough; if you want the longest life span, you
  should do platinum prints.

  But is longevity really the end all?

  Todd


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There you go.  All you have to do is use the same disclaimers as Epson. They should know right?  

What's Printer Engine got to do with it?

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Tucker 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:36 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Permanence/Stability)


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
  <skid@b...> wrote:
  > Stability?  Longevity?  Archival?  Too soon to know.  At this 
  point, all we can go with is our best guess, and
  > wait and see.


  This is under Epson's feature list for the pigmented ink version 
  of the Epson 10000. I also could not find any other information 
  under that URL that they send you to for further info. 

  <snip>

  Using our newest EPSON Archival Ink Technology, your prints 
  will not only look brilliant, but have a lightfastness rating up to 
  200 years under glass.**


  ** Ink lightfastness rating, based on accelerated testing of prints 
  on specialty media, displayed indoors, under glass. Actual print 
  stability will vary according to ink, media, printer engine, printed 
  image, display conditions, light intensity, humidity, and 
  atmospheric conditions. Epson does not guarantee longevity of 
  prints. For maximum print life, display all prints under glass or 
  lamination or properly store them. For the latest in lightfastness 
  information, refer to www.prographics.epson.com.

  </snip>



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  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
snip
> This is under Epson's feature list for the pigmented ink version 
> of the Epson 10000....
> Using our newest EPSON Archival Ink Technology, your prints 
> will not only look brilliant, but have a lightfastness rating up to 
> 200 years under glass.**
> 
...Epson does not guarantee longevity of 
> prints...

This spoken by a guy looking suspiciously like Mickey Roarke needing a 
shave with greasy hair and that bad suit.
Actually he doesn't really speak does he? I seem to recall Mickey sort 
of hisses.
Ty

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
snip
> to do is find the VERY best solution that exists today, and to try to 
> have some hard evidence to back up my decision. And then to 
> pick that and get to work.

Mark, Wilhelm put a priliminary hard number on his site of 75 yrs for 
Generations and Royal Plush. That's way better than traditional color 
photographs, and not too bad really. At least it's a number, and for 
specific ink and paper.
> 
...I'm just shocked that more people aren't concerned with 
> this issue. It's one of the main reasons that inkjet prints can get 
> NO respect in the gallery world. I personally think there's a good 
> bit of "The Emperor's Clothes" going on with inkjet; everybody's 
> just printing away, thinking everything's fine and good, but 
> nobody knows FOR SURE about the behavior of their materials, 
> and the town's citizens snicker a bit when they walk by the 
> window of the inkjet print shop. Conversation overheard on the 
> sidewalk: "Are you in line to buy a print?" "No, I'm 
> in the line to have mine remade..."

People like Steve Meyers, Bob Obenland, others, and myself have have 
been fairly pushy with Cone about providing some kind of statement 
that doesn't smell bad. After enough pushing he tends to reply with 
long posts containing his thoughts on the issue of archivalness in the 
art world, and info on why the inks are formulated as they are. His 
thoughts are welcomed and very illuminating. No one else in the 
industry tends to sit down and write to us all like he does on 
occassion, certainly no one with his extraordinary background.
Unfortunately he never really tells us what we want to hear, a one or 
two sentence statement that is somewhat reassuring that we can relay 
with only one or two small shifts of the eyes.
John Paul Caponigro stated in an article that Piezo prints would last 
125 years. Rather outrageous, where did the info come from? What 
paper? On and on...I think these unsupported statements make the 
problem worse by adding to the confusion and making us look better in 
cheap suits. But Cone replied that he saw no reason they wouldn't last 
that long, or at least 100 years. I've decided, for no particular good 
reason, to move forward under these curcumstances. I think people like 
Cone, Norm Levy, and others are relatively small business people 
obsessed with craft as we are. Their lives depend on these products 
and the info they put out there.
The bottom line is that I can finally get the tonality and control 
that always escaped me in the darkroom, as well as the lovely 
surfaces. I really do think the language of these prints presents my 
images better, I'm not sure I can walk away from that.
Less than ideal for sure, and I do feel more Mickey Roarke when I'd 
rather feel Gary Cooper, but everyone knows you can't trust an 
artist...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" <
steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
snip
...If buying at a sidewalk art fair from a guy that looks "fly by 
night" I would not have a great sense of security.

I don't know Steadman, if he had that suit...

...IF on the other hand the photographer was an established 
professional (as you are) or a "local" artist, I would feel more 
secure in the transaction.  If the guy is traveling from town to town 
in a RV selling prints...it may be a harder  judgement call on the 
buyers part.

I'm hearing about injet prints used by some of the biggest names in 
the art world. I'll bet there is no replacement garauntee of any kind.
We're subjected to this kind of scrutiny because we have no name. I 
don't mean to imply we should care less about what we are selling, or 
that I think a big name selling a print I think will fade is 
acceptable.
But those of us still prying our way into some kind of art market are 
the ones burdened with fighting this particular fight.
If Seranno went inkjet and they faded here's what would happen...
1) Serrano would still have his money, and the galleries and museums 
will still flock to see whatever he next excretes.
2) Any new artist presenting inkjets to a gallery or museum will be 
faced with additional resistance because of the "serrano debacle"
Tyler

I just saw some great prints in a museum made from pie filling, why do 
we continually have this issue flung in our faces?
Tyler

Mark,

Now don't go assuming things. It was a statement to everyone I see 
agonizing over this issue, which is one that needs discussion. That 
wasn't a suggestion to stop, just me sticking in my 2 cents.

In looking at it all, there is simply little hard data with inkjet at 
this time. We do have some information though. We know that Epson's 
(or any other company) initial color dye ink jet prints don't last 
long which has lead to the poor reputation of inkjet. I think there 
are sound reasons to pick pigment inks over dye inks in both color 
and B&W. It would seem prudent to use quality acid free papers with 
little or no optical brighteners.

B&W carbon pigment prints will warm shift to some degree depending 
upon the paper used. The speed of the shift is proportional to 
exposure to light but some shifting occurs in the dark. If exposed to 
intense light the prints fade. From Paul Roark's comparison test 
Piezo and MIS fade to the same point and then the fading slows down. 
The Piezo reaches this point sooner than MIS.

Coating the prints slows the fade by 50%. Even just using one of the 
aerosol sprays.

My own opinion is that if the prints are treated like we would a fine 
silver fiber print, these B&W inkjet prints should be good for many 
decades. But I cannot be sure. As you say I am whistling in the dark 
here with all finger crossed. The risks are big but inkjet seems so 
compelling people seem willing to accept it.

So you either have to continue with inkjet, live with that 
uncertainty and relax; continue with inkjet, live with that 
uncertainty and driver yourself totally nuts with worry or work in 
another print medium. A harsh assessment but that seems to sum up the 
situation and options at the moment. Whatever we do we need to have 
some peace of mind.

The other think to remember is that this is the situation today. Next 
year or the year after or somewhere down the line the whole archival 
issue of inkjet may be solved. Not much help at the moment other than 
to realize that the current situation is temporary. Either the inkjet 
problems will be solved or improved or some other technology will 
supplant it.

Considering anyone who is attempting to make it as a "fine arts" B&W 
photographer and printer, I would think that working in both silver 
and inkjet would be the way to go. Breaking into this is hard enough 
without championing a new medium at the same time. Not that it 
couldn't be done, but you would need to be very positive about it. 

Random thoughts here for a situation that simply doesn't have many 
satisfying answers.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
> <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> >   I cannot think of a better way to "warranty" the image/print 
than 
> to offer to replace it if needed.  That is standing behind your 
work.  
> I see nothing "cheap suit" about that.
> 
> 
> Steadman,
> 
> Just to be clear, I would certainly make another print for 
> someone if their print faded. No question about that. That would 
> be automatic.
> 
> But my point was that it just seems so shaky to sell someone a 
> print that you know is "iffy" right out of the gate. Even when a 
> used car salesman tells me that a car will probably need brakes 
> soon, I'm still a bit miffed when they go out so quickly. And even 
if 
> he fixed the brakes for free, I've still gotta carry the car back 
over 
> to him, wait around, yada yada.
> 
> I agree with most people who've responded that it's not perfect 
> now, nor will it probably be perfect in the near future. All I'm 
trying 
> to do is find the VERY best solution that exists today, and to try 
to 
> have some hard evidence to back up my decision. And then to 
> pick that and get to work.
> 
> In addition, until I get some degree of certainty about about a 
> lifespan of these prints, the prices I charge for these will remain 
> very low. I just couldn't feel good about putting this type of 
print 

> alongside an archivally-processed B/W silver print.
> 
> I'm sorry if I've belabored this point. I assume that Martin's 
> comment in Message 4152 is directed toward me. If so, I'll be on 
> my way. I'm just shocked that more people aren't concerned with 
> this issue. It's one of the main reasons that inkjet prints can get 
> NO respect in the gallery world. I personally think there's a good 
> bit of "The Emperor's Clothes" going on with inkjet; everybody's 
> just printing away, thinking everything's fine and good, but 
> nobody knows FOR SURE about the behavior of their materials, 
> and the town's citizens snicker a bit when they walk by the 
> window of the inkjet print shop. Conversation overheard on the 
> sidewalk: "Are you in line to buy a print?" "No, I'm 
> in the line to have mine remade..."

>
>In looking at it all, there is simply little hard data with inkjet at
>this time. We do have some information though. We know that Epson's
>(or any other company) initial color dye ink jet prints don't last
>long which has lead to the poor reputation of inkjet.


Actually, MIS has had hard data from RIT on their web site for some 
time, regarding their coloured inks.
Is there some reason why Duotone from coloured inks are not acceptable?

I think we are our own worst enemy, in so far as we expect ink jet 
prints to have the same characteristics of silver, platinum et al. 
Worse still we seem to be prepared to spend an awful lot of money to 
get there.

>I think there
>are sound reasons to pick pigment inks over dye inks in both color and B&W

Certainly looks that way, but only if the particles can be ground 
fine enough to get through the nozzles. At the moment it looks like , 
to me, that pigment inks are aimed at the high end printers which 
don´t clog or band as much as the "Amateur" desktops. I suspect if 
pigments worked in every desktop we would buy a lot less ink or paper 
to experiment with... I use word amateur in its real sense.

Regards,

Jerry.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> So you either have to continue with inkjet, live with that 
> uncertainty and relax; continue with inkjet, live with that 
> uncertainty and driver yourself totally nuts with worry or work in 
> another print medium.


Also for the record, I am totally committed to working in digital 
and inkjet. Going back to silver has never crossed my mind. So 
I'm here to stay; now the work is to come upon the best 
combination.

So, for now, can we all, as a group, create one or two sentences 
that sum up a very general "best approach with current 
materials"?

"Best longevity when printing with inket printers: 100% 
pigmented ink, printed on acid-free, 100% rag paper that 
contains no optical brighteners or buffers, followed by a spray of 
protective coating after printing."

Brand Names with these traits:

(Most Stable Papers):
Epson S/T Fine Art, Museo, HawkMtn (some), ____?____,

(Most Stable Inks):
Indellible, Piezo, ColorPiezo, ____?____,

(Protective Sprays):
Bulldog UV Protectant, ____?____,

Steadman,

Each driver will lay ink down differently. e.g. Epson have recently provided
new drivers for LF printers to reduce metamerism by laying ink down in a
different order - they now have the inks that are worst causes of m*
underneath the others. It just so happens this reduces quality of the prints
(!) - but also could effect longevity, for example, as the different ink
sitting on top could therefore fade differently!

There are also questions about dye inks. I believe it is said that dye inks
can mix during printing, which mixing can create unstable particles that are
more prone to fade. Hence, fading characteristics of 'dye mixes' are not
accounted for by many longevity tests as they test samples of 'cyan scale'
'magenta scale' etc... rather than real colours! I expect this is one area
that different companies test for longevity in different ways!

I welcome education!

Best,
Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steadman Uhlich [mailto:steadmanuhlich@...]
> Sent: 14 October 2001 15:59
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards
> (Permanence/Stability)
>
>
> There you go.  All you have to do is use the same disclaimers as
> Epson. They should know right?
>
> What's Printer Engine got to do with it?
>
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Mark Tucker
>
>   ** Ink lightfastness rating, based on accelerated testing of prints
>   on specialty media, displayed indoors, under glass. Actual print
>   stability will vary according to ink, media, printer engine, printed
>   image, display conditions, light intensity, humidity, and
>   atmospheric conditions. Epson does not guarantee longevity of
>   prints. For maximum print life, display all prints under glass or
>   lamination or properly store them. For the latest in lightfastness
>   information, refer to www.prographics.epson.com.
>
>   </snip>

A Pedantic point: saying '100% pigmented' _kind_of_ says "100% mixture of
pigment and dye". So, though I don't think it's truely technical
terminology, but 'pigmented' (as opposed to 'pigment') implies pigment / dye
mix.

'Pigment' implies Pigment only, but I guess got so misused by Epson and
people wanting to imply longevity, that '100% pigment' became important to
distinguish it from pigmented or the incorrectly used 'pigment'.

Is this the view of others?

So, I think in quad-black terms we are essentially referring to pigmented
options (MIS and Piezo) or Dye (Spectratone)? And I believe there is no
(100%) Pigment quad-black option.

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...]
> Sent: 14 October 2001 20:44
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Summary)
>
> "Best longevity when printing with inket printers: 100%
> pigmented ink, printed on acid-free, 100% rag paper that
> contains no optical brighteners or buffers, followed by a spray of
> protective coating after printing."
>

> So, I think in quad-black terms we are essentially referring to pigmented
> options (MIS and Piezo) or Dye (Spectratone)? And I believe there is no
> (100%) Pigment quad-black option.
> 
> Nij

It's one of the reasons I eagerly await Cone's "Selenium" inks -- He
promises they'll be 100% pigment.

Todd

Dear All,

Artists oil paint does not contain 100% pigment, watercolour paint 
does not contain 100% pigment either. They both contain 'carriers' 
and or preservatives. Yet the fact that they are reliable for the 
production of paintings is beyond doubt. Manufacturers of such 
materials publish longevity details in their catalogues and they do 
vary. I don't see the problem. Providing you are using the best 
available products no-one can accuse an artist of being dishonest. We 
have to remember that we are not merely selling ink on paper but that 
we are selling something with an aesthetic unique to that piece. No 
two prints will ever be the same. However minute the differance, be 
it paper grain, direction, ink density variation etc. Providing it 
meets the artists requirements for being saleable and the consumers 
requirements as a piece of art , nothing else matters.

Diamonds aren't 100% carbon but they're still diamonds..


DH

I believe that the concern was not the vehicles that are added to the
pigments, but rather the dyes that Cone and MIS put in their pigmented inks
to correct their color.  Dyes in comparison to pigment are quite fugitive.

Robert

On 10/14/01 3:26 PM, "davidhatton@..."
<davidhatton@...> wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Artists oil paint does not contain 100% pigment, watercolour paint
> does not contain 100% pigment either. They both contain 'carriers'
> and or preservatives. Yet the fact that they are reliable for the
> production of paintings is beyond doubt. Manufacturers of such
> materials publish longevity details in their catalogues and they do
> vary. I don't see the problem. Providing you are using the best
> available products no-one can accuse an artist of being dishonest. We
> have to remember that we are not merely selling ink on paper but that
> we are selling something with an aesthetic unique to that piece. No
> two prints will ever be the same. However minute the differance, be
> it paper grain, direction, ink density variation etc. Providing it
> meets the artists requirements for being saleable and the consumers
> requirements as a piece of art , nothing else matters.
> 
> Diamonds aren't 100% carbon but they're still diamonds..
> 
> 
> DH
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

davidhatton@... wrote:

> Artists oil paint does not contain 100% pigment, watercolour paint
> does not contain 100% pigment either. They both contain 'carriers'
> and or preservatives.

Yes, but upon drying most of the 'carrier' parts vaporize, and the preservatives are (assumingly) tested for
their stability and inertness to the pigments.

> Yet the fact that they are reliable for the
> production of paintings is beyond doubt. Manufacturers of such
> materials publish longevity details in their catalogues and they do
> vary. I don't see the problem. Providing you are using the best
> available products no-one can accuse an artist of being dishonest. We
> have to remember that we are not merely selling ink on paper but that
> we are selling something with an aesthetic unique to that piece. No
> two prints will ever be the same. However minute the differance, be
> it paper grain, direction, ink density variation etc. Providing it
> meets the artists requirements for being saleable and the consumers
> requirements as a piece of art , nothing else matters.

The above is true, but within the short history of inkjet technology, we have seen some absolutely,
ridiculously short lived inkjet prints.  There is nothing in the history of painting that can quite match the
sorry state of affairs that we have seen with instability issues of *some* inkjet prints....where there is
that history, there will be questions.

That said, I remember an artist friend of mine who did a beautiful edition of chine colle etchings.  I don't
know what he charged for the prints, but I know that his small acrylic paintings went in the $10,000 range.
Anyway, after selling out the edition, there was a problem with the 'red' images.  It seems that the red ink
he used was not stable, and they *all* faded.  He had to reprint each and every one of them, using a
different, and more stable red ink....So it just goes to show you, it's not just us.  But it *is* us who has
the bad history attached to our system.

> Diamonds aren't 100% carbon but they're still diamonds..

But the higher the carbon level the higher the quality of said diamonds.  The higher the level of impurity,
the lower the quality, and the lower the price.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., davidhatton@t... wrote:
> Dear All,
> 
> Diamonds aren't 100% carbon but they're still diamonds..


Yes, this is true, but unlike inkjet prints, everyone knows that 
"diamonds are forever"...

(Sorry; couldn't resist).

M.Tucker

Yes, this is true, but
unlike inkjet prints we know
"diamonds are forever".

(Sorry; couldn't resist).

t

> From: "Mark Tucker" <mark@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:22:03 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (semi-Pedant)
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., davidhatton@t... wrote:
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> Diamonds aren't 100% carbon but they're still diamonds..
> 
> 
> Yes, this is true, but unlike inkjet prints, everyone knows that
> "diamonds are forever"...
> 
> (Sorry; couldn't resist).
> 
> M.Tucker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Mark Tucker wrote:

> Yes, this is true, but unlike inkjet prints, everyone knows that
> "diamonds are forever"...
> 
> (Sorry; couldn't resist).
> 
> M.Tucker


Trish wrote:

> Yes, this is true, but
> unlike inkjet prints we know
> "diamonds are forever".
> 
> (Sorry; couldn't resist).
> 
> t

Not only is this the "great minds think alike" thing... It is also time for
the twilight zone music... just reading these posts that were written at
basically the same time is uncanny!!!

C

Regarding the twilight music post...


Oh well... sorry, I just noticed Trish's post was in response to Marks... it
would have been cool though!!  :-)

Going back to work now...

C

It is really a product of highly effective mass marketing message paid for by DeBeers  

They are the ones responsible for marketing the "Diamonds are Forever" slogan.  Highly successful worldwide slogan.  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carolyn Frayn 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (semi-Pedant)


  Mark Tucker wrote:

  > Yes, this is true, but unlike inkjet prints, everyone knows that
  > "diamonds are forever"...
  > 
  > (Sorry; couldn't resist).
  > 
  > M.Tucker


  Trish wrote:

  > Yes, this is true, but
  > unlike inkjet prints we know
  > "diamonds are forever".
  > 
  > (Sorry; couldn't resist).
  > 
  > t

  Not only is this the "great minds think alike" thing... It is also time for
  the twilight zone music... just reading these posts that were written at
  basically the same time is uncanny!!!

  C


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert,

You would probably need to do this using a Stauffer negative wedge to 
contact print onto MATTE silver paper. Then scan the wedge and make 
inkjet prints so that the inkjet Dmax was close to one of the steps 
on the silver print.

I have a feeling that you would not see any fading in the silver 
print during the 300 hours that Paul runs his tests.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> Is there any way that you could get a silver print of a test wedge 
and fade
> it side by side with a piezo or MIS test wedge that you consider to 
be the
> most stable combination?  That seems like the only way we are going 
to get
> the data that we need.  I've thought about doing it for a 
while...but your
> light/scanning system is better than what I have access to.  Ink 
jet to ink
> jet comparisons are useful...but I really think we need to know 
where we
> stand relative to the industry standard (that is...if there is one).
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 10/13/01 9:23 PM, "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
> > <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> >>   I cannot think of a better way to "warranty" the image/print 
than
> > to offer to replace it if needed.  That is standing behind your 
work.
> > I see nothing "cheap suit" about that.
> > 
> > 
> > Steadman,
> > 
> > Just to be clear, I would certainly make another print for
> > someone if their print faded. No question about that. That would
> > be automatic.
> > 
> > But my point was that it just seems so shaky to sell someone a
> > print that you know is "iffy" right out of the gate. Even when a
> > used car salesman tells me that a car will probably need brakes
> > soon, I'm still a bit miffed when they go out so quickly. And 
even if
> > he fixed the brakes for free, I've still gotta carry the car back 
over
> > to him, wait around, yada yada.
> > 
> > I agree with most people who've responded that it's not perfect
> > now, nor will it probably be perfect in the near future. All I'm 
trying
> > to do is find the VERY best solution that exists today, and to 
try to
> > have some hard evidence to back up my decision. And then to
> > pick that and get to work.
> > 
> > In addition, until I get some degree of certainty about about a
> > lifespan of these prints, the prices I charge for these will 
remain
> > very low. I just couldn't feel good about putting this type of 
print
> > alongside an archivally-processed B/W silver print.
> > 
> > I'm sorry if I've belabored this point. I assume that Martin's
> > comment in Message 4152 is directed toward me. If so, I'll be on
> > my way. I'm just shocked that more people aren't concerned with
> > this issue. It's one of the main reasons that inkjet prints can 
get
> > NO respect in the gallery world. I personally think there's a good
> > bit of "The Emperor's Clothes" going on with inkjet; everybody's
> > just printing away, thinking everything's fine and good, but
> > nobody knows FOR SURE about the behavior of their materials,
> > and the town's citizens snicker a bit when they walk by the
> > window of the inkjet print shop. Conversation overheard on the
> > sidewalk: "Are you in line to buy a print?" "No, I'm
> > in the line to have mine remade..."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> > 
> > 
> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@p...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066

Mark Tucker wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., davidhatton@t... wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Diamonds aren't 100% carbon but they're still diamonds..
>
>
> Yes, this is true, but unlike inkjet prints, everyone knows that
> "diamonds are forever"...
>
> (Sorry; couldn't resist).

Touche!  :- D

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., meander@m... wrote:
> >
> >In looking at it all, there is simply little hard data with inkjet 
at
> >this time. We do have some information though. We know that Epson's
> >(or any other company) initial color dye ink jet prints don't last
> >long which has lead to the poor reputation of inkjet.
> 
> 
> Actually, MIS has had hard data from RIT on their web site for some 
> time, regarding their coloured inks.
> Is there some reason why Duotone from coloured inks are not 
acceptable?

Jerry,

You are right about the MIS color data and it would be reasonable to 
expect that the quad and hex inkset would do as well. The problem 
comes in the translation of their test results into real display 
years. You have to take it with a grain of salt. Duotones are great, 
Mark Tucker, Jerry Olson and many others are doing exactly that. 

> 
> I think we are our own worst enemy, in so far as we expect ink jet 
> prints to have the same characteristics of silver, platinum et al. 
> Worse still we seem to be prepared to spend an awful lot of money 
to 
> get there.

YEP!

> 
> >I think there
> >are sound reasons to pick pigment inks over dye inks in both color 
and B&W
> 
> Certainly looks that way, but only if the particles can be ground 
> fine enough to get through the nozzles. At the moment it looks 
like , 
> to me, that pigment inks are aimed at the high end printers which 
> don´t clog or band as much as the "Amateur" desktops. I suspect if 
> pigments worked in every desktop we would buy a lot less ink or 
paper 
> to experiment with... I use word amateur in its real sense.

Have to throw in that I have not had any clogs with the MIS VM in the 
1280 and some people don't seem to have clogs with Piezo either.

Martin

(snip)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > So you either have to continue with inkjet, live with that 
> > uncertainty and relax; continue with inkjet, live with that 
> > uncertainty and driver yourself totally nuts with worry or work 
in 
> > another print medium.
> 
> 
> Also for the record, I am totally committed to working in digital 
> and inkjet. Going back to silver has never crossed my mind. So 
> I'm here to stay; now the work is to come upon the best 
> combination.
> 
> So, for now, can we all, as a group, create one or two sentences 
> that sum up a very general "best approach with current 
> materials"?
> 
> "Best longevity when printing with inket printers: 100% 
> pigmented ink, printed on acid-free, 100% rag paper that 
> contains no optical brighteners or buffers, followed by a spray of 
> protective coating after printing."

Mark,

A couple of changes here:

Pigment based ink on acid free, lignin free, pH buffered, no optical 
brighteners, followed by a coating after printing.

A full coverage coating by brush, roller, silkscreen, etc. being 
better than an aerosol spray coating which does not provide 100% 
covereage.
> 
> Brand Names with these traits:
> 
> (Most Stable Papers):
> Epson S/T Fine Art, Museo, HawkMtn (some), ____?____,

Crane papers is the only one I know of that states they have no 
optical brighteners. They meet all the other requirements.

> 
> (Most Stable Inks):
> Indellible, Piezo, ColorPiezo, ____?____,

Piezo and MIS VM B&W inks appear to be rather equivalent. I have not 
heard anything about the Indellible. Too soon to know much. MIS has 
fade test data on their color inks. Although translating their 
numbers into real display years seems iffy. Good test results on 
Epson's pigs if you can deal with the metamerism this might be the 
best way to go.

> 
> (Protective Sprays):
> Bulldog UV Protectant, ____?____,

From Robert's six week coating test what is used didn't seem to 
matter it was the fact that something is use. I have silver prints 
from the 70's with Krylon spray that seems fine after 30 years.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., davidhatton@t... wrote:

(snip)

> We have to remember that we are not merely selling ink on paper but 
that 
> we are selling something with an aesthetic unique to that piece. No 
> two prints will ever be the same. However minute the differance, be 
> it paper grain, direction, ink density variation etc. Providing it 
> meets the artists requirements for being saleable and the consumers 
> requirements as a piece of art , nothing else matters.
> 
David,

Well said!

Martin

on 10/14/01 11:29 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> From Robert's six week coating test what is used didn't seem to
> matter it was the fact that something is use. I have silver prints
> from the 70's with Krylon spray that seems fine after 30 years.
> 
> Martin


Just curious Martin, why were you spraying your silver prints?

Todd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Mark Tucker wrote:
> 
> > Yes, this is true, but unlike inkjet prints, everyone knows that
> > "diamonds are forever"...
> > 
> > (Sorry; couldn't resist).
> > 
> > M.Tucker
> 
> 
> Trish wrote:
> 
> > Yes, this is true, but
> > unlike inkjet prints we know
> > "diamonds are forever".
> > 
> > (Sorry; couldn't resist).
> > 
> > t
> 
> Not only is this the "great minds think alike" thing... It is also 
time for
> the twilight zone music... just reading these posts that were 
written at
> basically the same time is uncanny!!!
> 
> C

C,

And just where did you think all this stuff was being posted?

RS

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> on 10/14/01 11:29 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> > From Robert's six week coating test what is used didn't seem to
> > matter it was the fact that something is use. I have silver prints
> > from the 70's with Krylon spray that seems fine after 30 years.
> > 
> > Martin
> 
> 
> Just curious Martin, why were you spraying your silver prints?
> 
> Todd

I had mounted the silver prints on double weight black chip board and 
the black surface of the board kept fading. I found I could freshen 
up the black board by using the Krylon but to keep it even I had to 
spray everything including the prints. They were on Agfa with a pearl 
finish so it wasn't noticable.

Strange but true.

Martin

> 
> C,
> 
> And just where did you think all this stuff was being posted?
> 
> RS


do do do do ... do do do do ... we miss you Rod. ;-)


C

Surely black and white
quadtone printers are too young
for the twilight zone.....

t

> From: Carolyn  Frayn <carolyn@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:15:03 -0600
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (semi-Pedant)
> 
> 
>> 
>> C,
>> 
>> And just where did you think all this stuff was being posted?
>> 
>> RS
> 
> 
> do do do do ... do do do do ... we miss you Rod. ;-)
> 
> 
> C
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

That's because you CAN'T guarantee anything, and Epson would be foolish to 
try.

Until someone actually keeps one of these prints for 100 years we'll never 
know how close the accelerated life tests are to reality.

nigel@... (Nij) wrote:

> Yes! Not much of a GUARANTEE really!
> 
> Nij
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...]
> > Sent: 14 October 2001 14:36
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Permanence/Stability)
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
> > <skid@b...> wrote:
> > > Stability?  Longevity?  Archival?  Too soon to know.  At this 
> > point, all we can go with is our best guess, and
> > > wait and see.
> > 
> > 
> > This is under Epson's feature list for the pigmented ink version 
> > of the Epson 10000. I also could not find any other information 
> > under that URL that they send you to for further info. 
> > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> > Using our newest EPSON Archival Ink Technology, your prints 
> > will not only look brilliant, but have a lightfastness rating up to 
> > 200 years under glass.**
> > 
> > 
> > ** Ink lightfastness rating, based on accelerated testing of prints 
> > on specialty media, displayed indoors, under glass. Actual print 
> > stability will vary according to ink, media, printer engine, printed 
> > image, display conditions, light intensity, humidity, and 
> > atmospheric conditions. Epson does not guarantee longevity of 
> > prints. For maximum print life, display all prints under glass or 
> > lamination or properly store them. For the latest in lightfastness 
> > information, refer to www.prographics.epson.com.
> > 
> > </snip>
> > 
>

Robert,

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
  Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 9:41 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Message for Paul Roark--standards


  Paul,

  Is there any way that you could get a silver print of a test wedge and
fade
  it side by side with a piezo or MIS test wedge that you consider to be the
  most stable combination?
  [Paul Roark]

  I did chop up a toned silver print that had about a 50% gray.  My brief
test indicated virtually no changes.  So, I didn't run a full and visually
comparable test.  However, my depressing conclusion is that we are not in
the same class with the toned silver print at all.  Not close. :(

  The best news I have heard along these lines is that with RC paper the
inkjets did better -- they didn't peel the way the RC emulsion did.  So,
maybe our inkjets are at least in the RC class.  Some claim we're better,
but that is probably comparing to the RC prints that have developer
incorporated in them.

  Paul




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>   Is there any way that you could get a silver print of a test wedge and
> fade
>   it side by side with a piezo or MIS test wedge that you consider to be the
>   most stable combination?
>   [Paul Roark]
>
>   I did chop up a toned silver print that had about a 50% gray.  My brief
> test indicated virtually no changes.  So, I didn't run a full and visually
> comparable test.  However, my depressing conclusion is that we are not in
> the same class with the toned silver print at all.  Not close. :(
>
>   The best news I have heard along these lines is that with RC paper the
> inkjets did better -- they didn't peel the way the RC emulsion did.  So,
> maybe our inkjets are at least in the RC class.  Some claim we're better,
> but that is probably comparing to the RC prints that have developer
> incorporated in them.
>
>   Paul

Your experience of the non fading of the silver print fits with what I would expect.   As I understand it, the
silver image is made by light refracting off (through?) the silver grains on the paper.  The only way the
silver 'fades' (assuming proper processing) is through oxidation....Which is why we were supposed to selenium
tone* the prints.  The selenium was supposed to 'polish' the silver (which is why the blacks get deeper), and
bind to the surface of the silver to prevent it from reacting with the air, and thereby preventing 'oxidation'
of the silver particles.

When I last checked into that whole thing (now about 10 years ago) there was some concern that there was a
misinterpretation of the *original* tests done with selenium and silver (in the 1930s?).  The process was
being reexamined because a lot of microfilm that was heavily selenium toned for archival permanence (I think
by the Library of Congress) was proving to be just the opposite.  The last thing I remember was that there was
some impurity in the water used in the original tests that actually caused the stability, and not the
selenium.

As I said, this was a decade ago, and I have not kept up with the research....But I find it pretty humorous in
light of the stability issues in today's inkjet world.

I guess what I'm saying is that one never really knows what's going to happen to our 'stuff', but that we
should do the best we can with what we have to go on.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Paul,

Robert

On 10/16/01 12:40 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 9:41 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Message for Paul Roark--standards
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Is there any way that you could get a silver print of a test wedge and
> fade
> it side by side with a piezo or MIS test wedge that you consider to be the
> most stable combination?
> [Paul Roark]
> 
> I did chop up a toned silver print that had about a 50% gray.  My brief
> test indicated virtually no changes.  So, I didn't run a full and visually
> comparable test.  However, my depressing conclusion is that we are not in
> the same class with the toned silver print at all.  Not close. :(
> 
> The best news I have heard along these lines is that with RC paper the
> inkjets did better -- they didn't peel the way the RC emulsion did.  So,
> maybe our inkjets are at least in the RC class.  Some claim we're better,
> but that is probably comparing to the RC prints that have developer
> incorporated in them.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066