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Lenswork issues

Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Julian Thomas

Sorry for the cross post, but this I think fits both lists.

I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues no 36 and 37. If no one
has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well written, aiming at an
intelligent audience (one issue even has an article by Tolstoy!) with
well-presented photography - almost like an academic journal but more
readable!
 I ordered these two issues because of two articles - one by Brooks Jensen
on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing with dealers'. Some of
you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a Gallery where I was told
that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned print 'for it to be art',
and that I had to 'make it big'.
Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is solely a marketing ploy and
that it is better to sell more prints at a lower price than artificially
limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
John tells a number of horror stories and then advocates breaking the
dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting collectors directly.
Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the problem, if editioning only
benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer top benefit, one needs
to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone any thought on this?
Some people use the internet http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
Anyone else do this?

Julian
-----------------------------------
Julian Thomas
Bruc 168-6-1
08037 Barcelona

Gallery at http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
and
http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html

tfno 679676321

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Alejandro Montiel

Hello Julian:

Do you have any information on how to obtain the
magazine? An URL or some other contact info?

Thank you


--- Julian Thomas <julianthomas@...> wrote:
> Sorry for the cross post, but this I think fits both
> lists.
> 
> I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues
> no 36 and 37. If no one
> has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well
> written, aiming at an
> intelligent audience (one issue even has an article
> by Tolstoy!) with
> well-presented photography - almost like an academic
> journal but more
> readable!
>  I ordered these two issues because of two articles
> - one by Brooks Jensen
> on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing
> with dealers'. Some of
> you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a
> Gallery where I was told
> that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned
> print 'for it to be art',
> and that I had to 'make it big'.
> Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is
> solely a marketing ploy and
> that it is better to sell more prints at a lower
> price than artificially
> limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
> John tells a number of horror stories and then
> advocates breaking the
> dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting
> collectors directly.
> Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the
> problem, if editioning only
> benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer
> top benefit, one needs
> to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone
> any thought on this?
> Some people use the internet
> http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
> Anyone else do this?
> 
> Julian
> -----------------------------------
> Julian Thomas
> Bruc 168-6-1
> 08037 Barcelona
> 
> Gallery at
> http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
> and
>
http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
> 
> tfno 679676321
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Julian Thomas

Sure www.lenswork.com

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alejandro Montiel" <amontiel69@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues


> Hello Julian:
>
> Do you have any information on how to obtain the
> magazine? An URL or some other contact info?
>
> Thank you
>
>
> --- Julian Thomas <julianthomas@...> wrote:
> > Sorry for the cross post, but this I think fits both
> > lists.
> >
> > I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues
> > no 36 and 37. If no one
> > has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well
> > written, aiming at an
> > intelligent audience (one issue even has an article
> > by Tolstoy!) with
> > well-presented photography - almost like an academic
> > journal but more
> > readable!
> >  I ordered these two issues because of two articles
> > - one by Brooks Jensen
> > on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing
> > with dealers'. Some of
> > you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a
> > Gallery where I was told
> > that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned
> > print 'for it to be art',
> > and that I had to 'make it big'.
> > Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is
> > solely a marketing ploy and
> > that it is better to sell more prints at a lower
> > price than artificially
> > limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
> > John tells a number of horror stories and then
> > advocates breaking the
> > dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting
> > collectors directly.
> > Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the
> > problem, if editioning only
> > benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer
> > top benefit, one needs
> > to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone
> > any thought on this?
> > Some people use the internet
> > http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
> > Anyone else do this?
> >
> > Julian
> > -----------------------------------
> > Julian Thomas
> > Bruc 168-6-1
> > 08037 Barcelona
> >
> > Gallery at
> > http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
> > and
> >
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
> >
> > tfno 679676321
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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>
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>

[Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-17 by Robert Morrison

Had a nice visit with Robert Rex yesterday.  He is now traveling with
Morrison coated Museo prints (PiezoBW and Color Piezo) if you would like to
see something sooner than the next print exchange. Martin, also saw your
coated Museo prints for the first time.  They look nice...really like the
image...but I see the application problems you were having.  I don't think
you will have the samme problems on Museo with my formula.  Museo 365g is
probably the easiest paper out there to coat...followed closely by Eclipse
and Photo Rag.

Robert

PS  Robert can't say enough about the Indelible Ink set...that I think was
talked about briefly several weeks back...I think I'm going to check it out
for color...and maybe run some duotones.



On 10/17/01 7:27 AM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:

> Sure www.lenswork.com
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alejandro Montiel" <amontiel69@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
> 
> 
>> Hello Julian:
>> 
>> Do you have any information on how to obtain the
>> magazine? An URL or some other contact info?
>> 
>> Thank you
>> 
>> 
>> --- Julian Thomas <julianthomas@...> wrote:
>>> Sorry for the cross post, but this I think fits both
>>> lists.
>>> 
>>> I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues
>>> no 36 and 37. If no one
>>> has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well
>>> written, aiming at an
>>> intelligent audience (one issue even has an article
>>> by Tolstoy!) with
>>> well-presented photography - almost like an academic
>>> journal but more
>>> readable!
>>>  I ordered these two issues because of two articles
>>> - one by Brooks Jensen
>>> on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing
>>> with dealers'. Some of
>>> you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a
>>> Gallery where I was told
>>> that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned
>>> print 'for it to be art',
>>> and that I had to 'make it big'.
>>> Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is
>>> solely a marketing ploy and
>>> that it is better to sell more prints at a lower
>>> price than artificially
>>> limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
>>> John tells a number of horror stories and then
>>> advocates breaking the
>>> dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting
>>> collectors directly.
>>> Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the
>>> problem, if editioning only
>>> benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer
>>> top benefit, one needs
>>> to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone
>>> any thought on this?
>>> Some people use the internet
>>> http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
>>> Anyone else do this?
>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> -----------------------------------
>>> Julian Thomas
>>> Bruc 168-6-1
>>> 08037 Barcelona
>>> 
>>> Gallery at
>>> http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
>>> and
>>> 
>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
>>> 
>>> tfno 679676321
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
>> http://personals.yahoo.com
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

RE: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Nij

Julian,

How long did it take for your order to come through?  I ordered the same two
or three weeks ago, but on CD... no sign of it as yet.

Nij
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
> Sent: 17 October 2001 15:27
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
>
>
> Sure www.lenswork.com
>
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alejandro Montiel" <amontiel69@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
>
>
> > Hello Julian:
> >
> > Do you have any information on how to obtain the
> > magazine? An URL or some other contact info?
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> >
> > --- Julian Thomas <julianthomas@...> wrote:

Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-17 by Todd Flashner

on 10/17/01 11:41 AM, Robert Morrison wrote:

> PS  Robert can't say enough about the Indelible Ink set...that I think was
> talked about briefly several weeks back...I think I'm going to check it out
> for color...and maybe run some duotones.


That would be great Robert, there is a serious dearth of reports from
independent users. Their dealers say the inks are great, but their market
seems to be large format printers so I'd love to hear from someone (a user)
who uses them in a desktop printer. Please keep us informed of your
experience of both the inks and the providers.

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Julian Thomas

I ordered the print versions (hate reading on screen - also I can't read it
in the bath. Came in about ten days. I've had a couple of books on order
from them for months though - waiting for a reprint .
Julian




From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues


> Julian,
>
> How long did it take for your order to come through?  I ordered the same
two
> or three weeks ago, but on CD... no sign of it as yet.
>
> Nij
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
> > Sent: 17 October 2001 15:27
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
> >
> >
> > Sure www.lenswork.com
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alejandro Montiel" <amontiel69@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
> >
> >
> > > Hello Julian:
> > >
> > > Do you have any information on how to obtain the
> > > magazine? An URL or some other contact info?
> > >
> > > Thank you
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Julian Thomas <julianthomas@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-17 by Robert G. Morrison

Had a long conversation with the distributor this morning.  Turns out that
the guy that developed the ink set works right near me and more
interestingly used to work with the company that I used to develop pigments
for...so, in my opinion he was working with exactly the technology that
needs to be brought to inkjet (fine ground "real"...not encapsulated...
pigments)...and he apparently has done it.  I'm definitely going to get some
of their inks and try them in one of my 1270's.  It does sound like the
majority of their users are running big printers (Epson 9000's)...but they
apparently do have users that are using CIS with with 1270's/1280's.

Robert

On 10/17/01 9:08 AM, "Todd Flashner" <tflash@...> wrote:

> on 10/17/01 11:41 AM, Robert Morrison wrote:
> 
>> PS  Robert can't say enough about the Indelible Ink set...that I think was
>> talked about briefly several weeks back...I think I'm going to check it out
>> for color...and maybe run some duotones.
> 
> 
> That would be great Robert, there is a serious dearth of reports from
> independent users. Their dealers say the inks are great, but their market
> seems to be large format printers so I'd love to hear from someone (a user)
> who uses them in a desktop printer. Please keep us informed of your
> experience of both the inks and the providers.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-17 by Paul Roark

Robert,

>...
>the guy that developed the ink set ... used to work with the company
>that I used to develop pigments for...so, in my opinion
>he was working with exactly the technology that
>needs to be brought to inkjet (fine ground "real"...not encapsulated...
>pigments)...and he apparently has done it.

Very interesting.

I'm told that the big-format HP and some other printers use solid colorant
pigments.  Apparently they have very long lives (resistance to fading,
etc.), but rather low gamut.  For the desktop, I'm also told they had not
yet been ground finely enough to avoid clogs on our Epson printers.  If
someone has succeeded, this could be a true advance.

What black do they use?  Do they have a pure colorant that is blacker than
carbon (more like dark brown, from what I can see) and just as fade
resistant?  If so, that would be of real interest as a quad feedstock.

Good luck on the tests.  I hope they don't clog your 1270.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-17 by Robert G. Morrison

On 10/17/01 1:26 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> I'm told that the big-format HP and some other printers use solid colorant
> pigments.  Apparently they have very long lives (resistance to fading,
> etc.), but rather low gamut.  For the desktop, I'm also told they had not
> yet been ground finely enough to avoid clogs on our Epson printers.  If
> someone has succeeded, this could be a true advance.


Apparently they had problems initially with clogging but have a 6 nm grind
now...wow jet grinding has come a long way since I was in the business.
Apparently they have multiple users running desktop printers with a CIS.

> What black do they use?  Do they have a pure colorant that is blacker than
> carbon (more like dark brown, from what I can see) and just as fade
> resistant?  If so, that would be of real interest as a quad feedstock.

 Don't know...but I would guess that it is still carbon black...however, the
grind is critical.  If you can get a really fine grind...the particles will
pack tighter and give you a look more like dye.  Large particles have more
space that isn't black (particles on average are spherical).

But we'll see.  Very interesting.

Just want to say I really appreciate all your hard work to move this inkjet
technology forward.

Showed your "Tree" image to Robert Rex yesterday (he hadn't seen the first
print exchange)...and it got an instant "wow".

Robert


----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by SKID Photography

Julian Thomas wrote:

> I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues no 36 and 37. If no one
> has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well written, aiming at an
> intelligent audience (one issue even has an article by Tolstoy!) with
> well-presented photography - almost like an academic journal but more
> readable!
> I ordered these two issues because of two articles - one by Brooks Jensen
> on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing with dealers'. Some of
> you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a Gallery where I was told
> that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned print 'for it to be art',
> and that I had to 'make it big'.
> Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is solely a marketing ploy and
> that it is better to sell more prints at a lower price than artificially
> limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
> John tells a number of horror stories and then advocates breaking the
> dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting collectors directly.
> Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the problem, if editioning only
> benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer top benefit, one needs
> to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone any thought on this?
> Some people use the internet http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
> Anyone else do this?
>
> Julian

Julian,
I should start by saying that I have not read the articles you mentioned, but am commenting just on your post.

In my opinion, this concept of cutting out the 'middleman', (the photo dealer, or gallery owner) is a little
short sided and unfair.  Think about it, (and I am talking *only* about reputable dealers), selling art is a
*business*, it has *nothing* to do with art, the quality of said art, or making art...it is commerce.  Do not
confuse art and commerce!  (I know I keep on harping back to that line, but is *SO* important!)

Yes dealers get 50%, but if they do their jobs properly, they deserve it, the same as any retailer.  They have
overhead and need to invest time and money in your work, in order to sell it.  Most times, in the beginning, a
dealer cannot get a lot of money for an emerging artist's work, they need to work their connections and
collectors to 'brand' you, in the same way Epson has branded themselves as a company that makes good inkjet
printers.  If you turn around and go to the collectors that have already bought your images (through a
dealer), then you are stealing the dealers hard, honest work.  Also, collectors go to dealers because they
trust the dealer's taste, opinions, and ability to find new talent.

You ask how to get to the collectors?  That *is* the big question...And that is where the galleries and
dealers come in.  It is *their* job to find those people..  They have galleries, which they advertise and
promote, in order to get collectors interested enough to come in.  They do press releases, maintain and send
out mailing lists, schmooze with art critics etc.  Yes, we might be able to do that part ourselves, but then
it takes away from the time we want to use making art in the first place.  Some people enjoy it, some are
terrible at it.  The choice is yours, but still remember, do not confuse art and commerce.

Editioning:

If you recall, I posted that the whole modern concept behind editioning was purely a commerce/marketing
issue.  Originally, etchings were editioned because the etching plate literally wore out, and the earlier
prints were a higher quality.  There really was a finite number of prints that could be made from an etching
plate.  With modern steel plating techniques that is no longer true.

Yes editioning now is usually a marketing ploy.  I think it was Brett Weston's son, but it might have been a
Brett Weston sibling, who was (I don't know if he is still doing this) making one print from his 8x10
negative, and then dry mounting the neg. to the back of the print.  I guess to him it was the initial
'concept' that was important, and he never wanted to revisit those thoughts...I find that limiting.

Ansel Adams did at least one 'portfolio' in the 60's where, after printing the initial portfolio edition,
(which might have been as high as 100) he put the negatives through a Pitney Bowes 'cancellation machine' (it
punches holes through them) so that he could never make any more prints.  It was a marketing ploy that Ansel
lived to regret, and said so.  Years later, he felt he could have done more with the images, but couldn't
because he had destroyed the negatives...So much for the initial 'previsualization' (and this is from the
originator and master of the concept).

You have to decide if you want the initial money for limiting the print run, or you want the freedom over the
long haul to be able to revisit those images.  Again, while I know that dealers *claim* that they need to get
the photographers to limit the editions to get 'prices', history has shown us that it is just not true.
Edward Weston's 'Pepper #40' has the most copies in circulation, and still goes for the most at auction.  It
is sort of a 'catch 22'...If you are famous, it's ok, if you're unknown, you *must* follow the rules...Just
like with print quality or originality.  Michael Stipe of REM can get away with publishing books of photos
that look exactly like student work, but students could never get the same deal....Go back to the 5 rules of
success.  ;- )

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-17 by ternahan

any idea about his itinerary?
TIA
t
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:41:59 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible
> 
> Had a nice visit with Robert Rex yesterday.  He is now traveling with
> Morrison coated Museo prints (PiezoBW and Color Piezo) if you would like to
> see something sooner than the next print exchange. Martin, also saw your
> coated Museo prints for the first time.  They look nice...really like the
> image...but I see the application problems you were having.  I don't think
> you will have the samme problems on Museo with my formula.  Museo 365g is
> probably the easiest paper out there to coat...followed closely by Eclipse
> and Photo Rag.
> 
> Robert
> 
> PS  Robert can't say enough about the Indelible Ink set...that I think was
> talked about briefly several weeks back...I think I'm going to check it out
> for color...and maybe run some duotones.
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/17/01 7:27 AM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:
> 
>> Sure www.lenswork.com
>> 
>> Julian
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alejandro Montiel" <amontiel69@...>
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello Julian:
>>> 
>>> Do you have any information on how to obtain the
>>> magazine? An URL or some other contact info?
>>> 
>>> Thank you
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- Julian Thomas <julianthomas@...> wrote:
>>>> Sorry for the cross post, but this I think fits both
>>>> lists.
>>>> 
>>>> I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues
>>>> no 36 and 37. If no one
>>>> has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well
>>>> written, aiming at an
>>>> intelligent audience (one issue even has an article
>>>> by Tolstoy!) with
>>>> well-presented photography - almost like an academic
>>>> journal but more
>>>> readable!
>>>> I ordered these two issues because of two articles
>>>> - one by Brooks Jensen
>>>> on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing
>>>> with dealers'. Some of
>>>> you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a
>>>> Gallery where I was told
>>>> that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned
>>>> print 'for it to be art',
>>>> and that I had to 'make it big'.
>>>> Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is
>>>> solely a marketing ploy and
>>>> that it is better to sell more prints at a lower
>>>> price than artificially
>>>> limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
>>>> John tells a number of horror stories and then
>>>> advocates breaking the
>>>> dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting
>>>> collectors directly.
>>>> Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the
>>>> problem, if editioning only
>>>> benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer
>>>> top benefit, one needs
>>>> to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone
>>>> any thought on this?
>>>> Some people use the internet
>>>> http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
>>>> Anyone else do this?
>>>> 
>>>> Julian
>>>> -----------------------------------
>>>> Julian Thomas
>>>> Bruc 168-6-1
>>>> 08037 Barcelona
>>>> 
>>>> Gallery at
>>>> http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
>>>> and
>>>> 
>>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
>>>> 
>>>> tfno 679676321
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-17 by Paul Roark

Robert,

>... I would guess that it is still carbon black...

Do you know what kind of carbon is used?  My chemist brother is guessing it
is a graphite.  Assuming that it is, there is a whole specialty on the edge
effects relating to graphite.  Graphite forms itself into plates, where the
surfaces are smooth (thus its lubricating qualities) and rather
non-reactive.  The edges are where the action is.  That is where the
oxidation that is apparently the source of the fading probably takes place.
It might also be where we could find a toner to lock up those open bonds --
just like with silver and selenium.  I think there is a lot to be done with
this technology, but getting accurate information is not very easy.


>Showed your "Tree" image to Robert Rex yesterday (he hadn't seen the first
>print exchange)...and it got an instant "wow".

Tree?  That was a self portrait!  ;-)

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Julian Thomas

Harvey,
I agree totally with your post on editioning. Nothibng to add!

The dealer thing is tricky - dealers/ galleries can only take on a limited
number of photographers. So there are always people - like me - spending a
small fortune on portfolios, building up images. It would be really nice to
be able to increase sales without relying on the whim of a third party.
Maybe cooperatives, web sites, are a way forward?? BTW I'm crap at the
commerce side, I have no interest in it. It feels like I've spent the last 2
months doing nothing else.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "SKID Photography" <skid@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues


> Julian Thomas wrote:
>
> > I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues no 36 and 37. If no
one
> > has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well written, aiming at
an
> > intelligent audience (one issue even has an article by Tolstoy!) with
> > well-presented photography - almost like an academic journal but more
> > readable!
> > I ordered these two issues because of two articles - one by Brooks
Jensen
> > on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing with dealers'. Some
of
> > you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a Gallery where I was
told
> > that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned print 'for it to be
art',
> > and that I had to 'make it big'.
> > Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is solely a marketing ploy
and
> > that it is better to sell more prints at a lower price than artificially
> > limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
> > John tells a number of horror stories and then advocates breaking the
> > dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting collectors directly.
> > Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the problem, if editioning
only
> > benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer top benefit, one
needs
> > to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone any thought on
this?
> > Some people use the internet http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
> > Anyone else do this?
> >
> > Julian
>
> Julian,
> I should start by saying that I have not read the articles you mentioned,
but am commenting just on your post.
>
> In my opinion, this concept of cutting out the 'middleman', (the photo
dealer, or gallery owner) is a little
> short sided and unfair.  Think about it, (and I am talking *only* about
reputable dealers), selling art is a
> *business*, it has *nothing* to do with art, the quality of said art, or
making art...it is commerce.  Do not
> confuse art and commerce!  (I know I keep on harping back to that line,
but is *SO* important!)
>
> Yes dealers get 50%, but if they do their jobs properly, they deserve it,
the same as any retailer.  They have
> overhead and need to invest time and money in your work, in order to sell
it.  Most times, in the beginning, a
> dealer cannot get a lot of money for an emerging artist's work, they need
to work their connections and
> collectors to 'brand' you, in the same way Epson has branded themselves as
a company that makes good inkjet
> printers.  If you turn around and go to the collectors that have already
bought your images (through a
> dealer), then you are stealing the dealers hard, honest work.  Also,
collectors go to dealers because they
> trust the dealer's taste, opinions, and ability to find new talent.
>
> You ask how to get to the collectors?  That *is* the big question...And
that is where the galleries and
> dealers come in.  It is *their* job to find those people..  They have
galleries, which they advertise and
> promote, in order to get collectors interested enough to come in.  They do
press releases, maintain and send
> out mailing lists, schmooze with art critics etc.  Yes, we might be able
to do that part ourselves, but then
> it takes away from the time we want to use making art in the first place.
Some people enjoy it, some are
> terrible at it.  The choice is yours, but still remember, do not confuse
art and commerce.
>
> Editioning:
>
> If you recall, I posted that the whole modern concept behind editioning
was purely a commerce/marketing
> issue.  Originally, etchings were editioned because the etching plate
literally wore out, and the earlier
> prints were a higher quality.  There really was a finite number of prints
that could be made from an etching
> plate.  With modern steel plating techniques that is no longer true.
>
> Yes editioning now is usually a marketing ploy.  I think it was Brett
Weston's son, but it might have been a
> Brett Weston sibling, who was (I don't know if he is still doing this)
making one print from his 8x10
> negative, and then dry mounting the neg. to the back of the print.  I
guess to him it was the initial
> 'concept' that was important, and he never wanted to revisit those
thoughts...I find that limiting.
>
> Ansel Adams did at least one 'portfolio' in the 60's where, after printing
the initial portfolio edition,
> (which might have been as high as 100) he put the negatives through a
Pitney Bowes 'cancellation machine' (it
> punches holes through them) so that he could never make any more prints.
It was a marketing ploy that Ansel
> lived to regret, and said so.  Years later, he felt he could have done
more with the images, but couldn't
> because he had destroyed the negatives...So much for the initial
'previsualization' (and this is from the
> originator and master of the concept).
>
> You have to decide if you want the initial money for limiting the print
run, or you want the freedom over the
> long haul to be able to revisit those images.  Again, while I know that
dealers *claim* that they need to get
> the photographers to limit the editions to get 'prices', history has shown
us that it is just not true.
> Edward Weston's 'Pepper #40' has the most copies in circulation, and still
goes for the most at auction.  It
> is sort of a 'catch 22'...If you are famous, it's ok, if you're unknown,
you *must* follow the rules...Just
> like with print quality or originality.  Michael Stipe of REM can get away
with publishing books of photos
> that look exactly like student work, but students could never get the same
deal....Go back to the 5 rules of
> success.  ;- )
>
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

RE: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Nij

Yes. This is all new to me too. But, it does seem like they (the galleries
and dealers) perform a valid service for a percentage. It just _sounds_ a
little steep to me to be charging 50% + money for snacks and drinks :)

However, consider... if you sold every print direct... noone would ever get
to see your work... without you running your own gallery, or you having your
own personal bar that you could use as gallery space. etc etc. In that
sense, the gallery, the exhibition, the framing shop window are all
opportunities for you to get your name better known, and to have people
asking for more work, potentially even commisioning work (tho... does that
work with Street photography OR Found Objects ???) <grins>

Nij






> -----Original Message-----
> From: SKID Photography [mailto:skid@...]
<snip>
> You ask how to get to the collectors?  That *is* the big
> question...And that is where the galleries and
> dealers come in.  It is *their* job to find those people..  They
> have galleries, which they advertise and
> promote, in order to get collectors interested enough to come in.
>  They do press releases, maintain and send
> out mailing lists, schmooze with art critics etc.  Yes, we might
> be able to do that part ourselves, but then
> it takes away from the time we want to use making art in the
> first place.  Some people enjoy it, some are
> terrible at it.  The choice is yours, but still remember, do not
> confuse art and commerce.
>
<snip>

Re: [Digital BW] marketing

2001-10-17 by ternahan

Julian, et al,

I am with you...I have to choose market/sell/promote or work and I
absolutely hate it. (I don't quite understand how I can be so compulsive and
nit picky about my images and can't oraganize anything else, priorities, I
guess) 
I have belonged to a cooperative gallery...it was fun, work and didn't sell
much, but work got seen.
At present, I am concentrating soley on work...no competitions, galleries or
showing portfolios. I only want to create art that is meaningful to me...I
recognize that it may not "sell", but I think it needs to exist...who knows,
maybe someday people will base art preferences on something besides sofas
and size...
Sooo....back to work.

t
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:03:57 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
> 
> Harvey,
> I agree totally with your post on editioning. Nothibng to add!
> 
> The dealer thing is tricky - dealers/ galleries can only take on a limited
> number of photographers. So there are always people - like me - spending a
> small fortune on portfolios, building up images. It would be really nice to
> be able to increase sales without relying on the whim of a third party.
> Maybe cooperatives, web sites, are a way forward?? BTW I'm crap at the
> commerce side, I have no interest in it. It feels like I've spent the last 2
> months doing nothing else.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "SKID Photography" <skid@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
> 
> 
>> Julian Thomas wrote:
>> 
>>> I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues no 36 and 37. If no
> one
>>> has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well written, aiming at
> an
>>> intelligent audience (one issue even has an article by Tolstoy!) with
>>> well-presented photography - almost like an academic journal but more
>>> readable!
>>> I ordered these two issues because of two articles - one by Brooks
> Jensen
>>> on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing with dealers'. Some
> of
>>> you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a Gallery where I was
> told
>>> that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned print 'for it to be
> art',
>>> and that I had to 'make it big'.
>>> Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is solely a marketing ploy
> and
>>> that it is better to sell more prints at a lower price than artificially
>>> limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
>>> John tells a number of horror stories and then advocates breaking the
>>> dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting collectors directly.
>>> Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the problem, if editioning
> only
>>> benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer top benefit, one
> needs
>>> to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone any thought on
> this?
>>> Some people use the internet http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
>>> Anyone else do this?
>>> 
>>> Julian
>> 
>> Julian,
>> I should start by saying that I have not read the articles you mentioned,
> but am commenting just on your post.
>> 
>> In my opinion, this concept of cutting out the 'middleman', (the photo
> dealer, or gallery owner) is a little
>> short sided and unfair.  Think about it, (and I am talking *only* about
> reputable dealers), selling art is a
>> *business*, it has *nothing* to do with art, the quality of said art, or
> making art...it is commerce.  Do not
>> confuse art and commerce!  (I know I keep on harping back to that line,
> but is *SO* important!)
>> 
>> Yes dealers get 50%, but if they do their jobs properly, they deserve it,
> the same as any retailer.  They have
>> overhead and need to invest time and money in your work, in order to sell
> it.  Most times, in the beginning, a
>> dealer cannot get a lot of money for an emerging artist's work, they need
> to work their connections and
>> collectors to 'brand' you, in the same way Epson has branded themselves as
> a company that makes good inkjet
>> printers.  If you turn around and go to the collectors that have already
> bought your images (through a
>> dealer), then you are stealing the dealers hard, honest work.  Also,
> collectors go to dealers because they
>> trust the dealer's taste, opinions, and ability to find new talent.
>> 
>> You ask how to get to the collectors?  That *is* the big question...And
> that is where the galleries and
>> dealers come in.  It is *their* job to find those people..  They have
> galleries, which they advertise and
>> promote, in order to get collectors interested enough to come in.  They do
> press releases, maintain and send
>> out mailing lists, schmooze with art critics etc.  Yes, we might be able
> to do that part ourselves, but then
>> it takes away from the time we want to use making art in the first place.
> Some people enjoy it, some are
>> terrible at it.  The choice is yours, but still remember, do not confuse
> art and commerce.
>> 
>> Editioning:
>> 
>> If you recall, I posted that the whole modern concept behind editioning
> was purely a commerce/marketing
>> issue.  Originally, etchings were editioned because the etching plate
> literally wore out, and the earlier
>> prints were a higher quality.  There really was a finite number of prints
> that could be made from an etching
>> plate.  With modern steel plating techniques that is no longer true.
>> 
>> Yes editioning now is usually a marketing ploy.  I think it was Brett
> Weston's son, but it might have been a
>> Brett Weston sibling, who was (I don't know if he is still doing this)
> making one print from his 8x10
>> negative, and then dry mounting the neg. to the back of the print.  I
> guess to him it was the initial
>> 'concept' that was important, and he never wanted to revisit those
> thoughts...I find that limiting.
>> 
>> Ansel Adams did at least one 'portfolio' in the 60's where, after printing
> the initial portfolio edition,
>> (which might have been as high as 100) he put the negatives through a
> Pitney Bowes 'cancellation machine' (it
>> punches holes through them) so that he could never make any more prints.
> It was a marketing ploy that Ansel
>> lived to regret, and said so.  Years later, he felt he could have done
> more with the images, but couldn't
>> because he had destroyed the negatives...So much for the initial
> 'previsualization' (and this is from the
>> originator and master of the concept).
>> 
>> You have to decide if you want the initial money for limiting the print
> run, or you want the freedom over the
>> long haul to be able to revisit those images.  Again, while I know that
> dealers *claim* that they need to get
>> the photographers to limit the editions to get 'prices', history has shown
> us that it is just not true.
>> Edward Weston's 'Pepper #40' has the most copies in circulation, and still
> goes for the most at auction.  It
>> is sort of a 'catch 22'...If you are famous, it's ok, if you're unknown,
> you *must* follow the rules...Just
>> like with print quality or originality.  Michael Stipe of REM can get away
> with publishing books of photos
>> that look exactly like student work, but students could never get the same
> deal....Go back to the 5 rules of
>> success.  ;- )
>> 
>> Harvey Ferdschneider
>> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Yes. This is all new to me too. But, it does seem like they (the galleries
> and dealers) perform a valid service for a percentage. It just _sounds_ a
> little steep to me to be charging 50% + money for snacks and drinks :)

Rent on a commercial retail space, business insurance, licenses and taxes, utilities, employees and their benifits, business 
machines and supplies, advertizing... on and on. Some bigger artists insist on some percentage of the show being 
purchased outright up front, rather than being on commission.
After all that hopefully enough left over to make a living on, all out of a few red dots on the wall. Sorry, had to say it, I realize 
many of these people are less than stellar.
But it's not an easy way to make a living, maybe for the few at the top.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Cathy Van Berg

I know there are many more places to buy fine art photography but I
frequent guild.com.  I was at one time invited to sell my work there,
but didn't at the time.  I had gotten a letter in the mail.  I don't
remember what their financial arrangement is, if anything. It may be
just self-promotion....(?)

I read that Lenswork issue with great interest...the brundt of the
article was that he (John Wimberley) had been cheated so many times by
gallery owners, he didn't have much good to say about them, and goes
on to recount some of his horror stories. He recalls that out of about
40 dealers he's dealt with, he can only claim 10 treated him honestly.

Not very good odds, huh?
Cathy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Harvey,
> I agree totally with your post on editioning. Nothibng to add!
> 
> The dealer thing is tricky - dealers/ galleries can only take on a
limited
> number of photographers. So there are always people - like me -
spending a
> small fortune on portfolios, building up images. It would be really
nice to
> be able to increase sales without relying on the whim of a third party.
> Maybe cooperatives, web sites, are a way forward?? BTW I'm crap at the
> commerce side, I have no interest in it. It feels like I've spent
the last 2
> months doing nothing else.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "SKID Photography" <skid@b...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
> 
> 
> > Julian Thomas wrote:
> >
> > > I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues no 36 and 37.
If no
> one
> > > has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well written,
aiming at
> an
> > > intelligent audience (one issue even has an article by Tolstoy!)
with
> > > well-presented photography - almost like an academic journal but
more
> > > readable!
> > > I ordered these two issues because of two articles - one by Brooks
> Jensen
> > > on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing with
dealers'. Some
> of
> > > you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a Gallery where
I was
> told
> > > that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned print 'for it to be
> art',
> > > and that I had to 'make it big'.
> > > Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is solely a
marketing ploy
> and
> > > that it is better to sell more prints at a lower price than
artificially
> > > limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
> > > John tells a number of horror stories and then advocates
breaking the
> > > dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting collectors directly.
> > > Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the problem, if
editioning
> only
> > > benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer top
benefit, one
> needs
> > > to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone any thought on
> this?
> > > Some people use the internet http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for
example.
> > > Anyone else do this?
> > >
> > > Julian
> >
> > Julian,
> > I should start by saying that I have not read the articles you
mentioned,
> but am commenting just on your post.
> >
> > In my opinion, this concept of cutting out the 'middleman', (the photo
> dealer, or gallery owner) is a little
> > short sided and unfair.  Think about it, (and I am talking *only*
about
> reputable dealers), selling art is a
> > *business*, it has *nothing* to do with art, the quality of said
art, or
> making art...it is commerce.  Do not
> > confuse art and commerce!  (I know I keep on harping back to that
line,
> but is *SO* important!)
> >
> > Yes dealers get 50%, but if they do their jobs properly, they
deserve it,
> the same as any retailer.  They have
> > overhead and need to invest time and money in your work, in order
to sell
> it.  Most times, in the beginning, a
> > dealer cannot get a lot of money for an emerging artist's work,
they need
> to work their connections and
> > collectors to 'brand' you, in the same way Epson has branded
themselves as
> a company that makes good inkjet
> > printers.  If you turn around and go to the collectors that have
already
> bought your images (through a
> > dealer), then you are stealing the dealers hard, honest work.  Also,
> collectors go to dealers because they
> > trust the dealer's taste, opinions, and ability to find new talent.
> >
> > You ask how to get to the collectors?  That *is* the big
question...And
> that is where the galleries and
> > dealers come in.  It is *their* job to find those people..  They have
> galleries, which they advertise and
> > promote, in order to get collectors interested enough to come in.
 They do
> press releases, maintain and send
> > out mailing lists, schmooze with art critics etc.  Yes, we might
be able
> to do that part ourselves, but then
> > it takes away from the time we want to use making art in the first
place.
> Some people enjoy it, some are
> > terrible at it.  The choice is yours, but still remember, do not
confuse
> art and commerce.
> >
> > Editioning:
> >
> > If you recall, I posted that the whole modern concept behind
editioning
> was purely a commerce/marketing
> > issue.  Originally, etchings were editioned because the etching plate
> literally wore out, and the earlier
> > prints were a higher quality.  There really was a finite number of
prints
> that could be made from an etching
> > plate.  With modern steel plating techniques that is no longer true.
> >
> > Yes editioning now is usually a marketing ploy.  I think it was Brett
> Weston's son, but it might have been a
> > Brett Weston sibling, who was (I don't know if he is still doing this)
> making one print from his 8x10
> > negative, and then dry mounting the neg. to the back of the print.  I
> guess to him it was the initial
> > 'concept' that was important, and he never wanted to revisit those
> thoughts...I find that limiting.
> >
> > Ansel Adams did at least one 'portfolio' in the 60's where, after
printing
> the initial portfolio edition,
> > (which might have been as high as 100) he put the negatives through a
> Pitney Bowes 'cancellation machine' (it
> > punches holes through them) so that he could never make any more
prints.
> It was a marketing ploy that Ansel
> > lived to regret, and said so.  Years later, he felt he could have done
> more with the images, but couldn't
> > because he had destroyed the negatives...So much for the initial
> 'previsualization' (and this is from the
> > originator and master of the concept).
> >
> > You have to decide if you want the initial money for limiting the
print
> run, or you want the freedom over the
> > long haul to be able to revisit those images.  Again, while I know
that
> dealers *claim* that they need to get
> > the photographers to limit the editions to get 'prices', history
has shown
> us that it is just not true.
> > Edward Weston's 'Pepper #40' has the most copies in circulation,
and still
> goes for the most at auction.  It
> > is sort of a 'catch 22'...If you are famous, it's ok, if you're
unknown,
> you *must* follow the rules...Just
> > like with print quality or originality.  Michael Stipe of REM can
get away
> with publishing books of photos
> > that look exactly like student work, but students could never get
the same
> deal....Go back to the 5 rules of
> > success.  ;- )
> >
> > Harvey Ferdschneider
> > partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >
> >
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-17 by Robert G. Morrison

He's in LA this week...and I know in NYC last week...but don't know after
that.  He's reading the list...so I imagine he will respond.

Robert

On 10/17/01 1:55 PM, "ternahan" <ternahan@...> wrote:

> any idea about his itinerary?
> TIA
> t
> 
>> From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:41:59 -0700
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible
>> 
>> Had a nice visit with Robert Rex yesterday.  He is now traveling with
>> Morrison coated Museo prints (PiezoBW and Color Piezo) if you would like to
>> see something sooner than the next print exchange. Martin, also saw your
>> coated Museo prints for the first time.  They look nice...really like the
>> image...but I see the application problems you were having.  I don't think
>> you will have the samme problems on Museo with my formula.  Museo 365g is
>> probably the easiest paper out there to coat...followed closely by Eclipse
>> and Photo Rag.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> PS  Robert can't say enough about the Indelible Ink set...that I think was
>> talked about briefly several weeks back...I think I'm going to check it out
>> for color...and maybe run some duotones.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/17/01 7:27 AM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:
>> 
>>> Sure www.lenswork.com
>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alejandro Montiel" <amontiel69@...>
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:22 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Hello Julian:
>>>> 
>>>> Do you have any information on how to obtain the
>>>> magazine? An URL or some other contact info?
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --- Julian Thomas <julianthomas@...> wrote:
>>>>> Sorry for the cross post, but this I think fits both
>>>>> lists.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues
>>>>> no 36 and 37. If no one
>>>>> has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well
>>>>> written, aiming at an
>>>>> intelligent audience (one issue even has an article
>>>>> by Tolstoy!) with
>>>>> well-presented photography - almost like an academic
>>>>> journal but more
>>>>> readable!
>>>>> I ordered these two issues because of two articles
>>>>> - one by Brooks Jensen
>>>>> on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing
>>>>> with dealers'. Some of
>>>>> you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a
>>>>> Gallery where I was told
>>>>> that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned
>>>>> print 'for it to be art',
>>>>> and that I had to 'make it big'.
>>>>> Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is
>>>>> solely a marketing ploy and
>>>>> that it is better to sell more prints at a lower
>>>>> price than artificially
>>>>> limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
>>>>> John tells a number of horror stories and then
>>>>> advocates breaking the
>>>>> dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting
>>>>> collectors directly.
>>>>> Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the
>>>>> problem, if editioning only
>>>>> benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer
>>>>> top benefit, one needs
>>>>> to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone
>>>>> any thought on this?
>>>>> Some people use the internet
>>>>> http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
>>>>> Anyone else do this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Julian
>>>>> -----------------------------------
>>>>> Julian Thomas
>>>>> Bruc 168-6-1
>>>>> 08037 Barcelona
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gallery at
>>>>> http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
>>>>> and
>>>>> 
>>>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> tfno 679676321
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
>>>> http://personals.yahoo.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>>> 
>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>> 
>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>>> them short.
>>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------
>> Robert Morrison
>> rmorrison@...
>> 
>> 310-397-2704
>> 
>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other
>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

RE: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Nij

Tyler - I certainly won't argue with you on the cost the galleries must
face. I suppose I just think that 50% seems like quite a lot.

Many, many businesses work on percentages less than that (yes, I know I can
sell Piezography more than 10 times ;) - but also... can I just check? This
is 50% of selling price, yes? So in other words, 100% of artist's price.
That is where I think there is the kick in the pants!

To this extent in particular, I feel the web-gallery and the framing shop
and the pub and (anywhere else we might look to get our work hung as
'advertising'?) are valuable entry-points to the market, to get some money
into the system without having necessarily high costs.

There is only one question after that... does such an approach limit your
future possibilities into the art market? In other words, as a 'print
artist' - should I skip the framing shop and be trying to blag my way into
the National Portrait Gallery (in London) or something like that???

Best regards,
Nij
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...]
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> > Yes. This is all new to me too. But, it does seem like they
> (the galleries
> > and dealers) perform a valid service for a percentage. It just
> _sounds_ a
> > little steep to me to be charging 50% + money for snacks and drinks :)
>
> Rent on a commercial retail space, business insurance, licenses
> and taxes, utilities, employees and their benifits, business
> machines and supplies, advertizing... on and on. Some bigger
> artists insist on some percentage of the show being
> purchased outright up front, rather than being on commission.
> After all that hopefully enough left over to make a living on,
> all out of a few red dots on the wall. Sorry, had to say it, I realize
> many of these people are less than stellar.
> But it's not an easy way to make a living, maybe for the few at the top.
> Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Tyler - I certainly won't argue with you on the cost the galleries must
> face. I suppose I just think that 50% seems like quite a lot.

Nij, I agree with you, I was just responding to the snacks and cheese comment, which I found cynically amusing. I would 
never align myself with the gallery side of the issue. At the risk of sounding so again though, the only thing I might add is 
that it has been 50% for decades, the only area I can think of artists haven't lost ground over time.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by SKID Photography

Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> > Tyler - I certainly won't argue with you on the cost the galleries must
> > face. I suppose I just think that 50% seems like quite a lot.
>
> Nij, I agree with you, I was just responding to the snacks and cheese comment, which I found cynically
> amusing. I would
> never align myself with the gallery side of the issue. At the risk of sounding so again though, the only
> thing I might add is
> that it has been 50% for decades, the only area I can think of artists haven't lost ground over time.
> Tyler

Actually in the 1970s it was a 60/40 split...40% going to the gallery.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography <skid@b...> wrote:
> Actually in the 1970s it was a 60/40 split...40% going to the gallery.

Hey Harvey, I didn't say how many decades did I?
Sorry, I wasn't actively involved in exhibiting 'til, literally, 1980.
If what's happenning in stock starts spilling over to art, hold on to you hats, and your IRA's.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-17 by ternahan

Thanks, Robert!

Robert Rex, if you are coming to the bay area, would you let us know when
and where? Thanks,
trish
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:13:46 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible
> 
> He's in LA this week...and I know in NYC last week...but don't know after
> that.  He's reading the list...so I imagine he will respond.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 10/17/01 1:55 PM, "ternahan" <ternahan@...> wrote:
> 
>> any idea about his itinerary?
>> TIA
>> t
>> 
>>> From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:41:59 -0700
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible
>>> 
>>> Had a nice visit with Robert Rex yesterday.  He is now traveling with
>>> Morrison coated Museo prints (PiezoBW and Color Piezo) if you would like to
>>> see something sooner than the next print exchange. Martin, also saw your
>>> coated Museo prints for the first time.  They look nice...really like the
>>> image...but I see the application problems you were having.  I don't think
>>> you will have the samme problems on Museo with my formula.  Museo 365g is
>>> probably the easiest paper out there to coat...followed closely by Eclipse
>>> and Photo Rag.
>>> 
>>> Robert
>>> 
>>> PS  Robert can't say enough about the Indelible Ink set...that I think was
>>> talked about briefly several weeks back...I think I'm going to check it out
>>> for color...and maybe run some duotones.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/17/01 7:27 AM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Sure www.lenswork.com
>>>> 
>>>> Julian
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Alejandro Montiel" <amontiel69@...>
>>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:22 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Julian:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do you have any information on how to obtain the
>>>>> magazine? An URL or some other contact info?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --- Julian Thomas <julianthomas@...> wrote:
>>>>>> Sorry for the cross post, but this I think fits both
>>>>>> lists.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've just received two copies of Lenswork - issues
>>>>>> no 36 and 37. If no one
>>>>>> has seen this magazine it is a must. it is very well
>>>>>> written, aiming at an
>>>>>> intelligent audience (one issue even has an article
>>>>>> by Tolstoy!) with
>>>>>> well-presented photography - almost like an academic
>>>>>> journal but more
>>>>>> readable!
>>>>>> I ordered these two issues because of two articles
>>>>>> - one by Brooks Jensen
>>>>>> on editioning, and one by John Wimberley on 'dealing
>>>>>> with dealers'. Some of
>>>>>> you know that I had an unpleasant expereince at a
>>>>>> Gallery where I was told
>>>>>> that I could only make 4 copies of an editioned
>>>>>> print 'for it to be art',
>>>>>> and that I had to 'make it big'.
>>>>>> Brooks makes the valid point that editioning is
>>>>>> solely a marketing ploy and
>>>>>> that it is better to sell more prints at a lower
>>>>>> price than artificially
>>>>>> limit the sale to an arbitrary number of prints.
>>>>>> John tells a number of horror stories and then
>>>>>> advocates breaking the
>>>>>> dealer's monopoly by photographers contacting
>>>>>> collectors directly.
>>>>>> Now this last point, to me, is the crux of the
>>>>>> problem, if editioning only
>>>>>> benefits dealers, then in order for the photographer
>>>>>> top benefit, one needs
>>>>>> to sell directly to collectors. But HOW?? Has anyone
>>>>>> any thought on this?
>>>>>> Some people use the internet
>>>>>> http://www.davebeckerman.com/ for example.
>>>>>> Anyone else do this?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>> -----------------------------------
>>>>>> Julian Thomas
>>>>>> Bruc 168-6-1
>>>>>> 08037 Barcelona
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gallery at
>>>>>> http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> tfno 679676321
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
>>>>> http://personals.yahoo.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>>>> them short.
>>>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>>>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>>> resources on the homepage.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>>> other
>>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>>> 
>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>> 
>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>>>> them short.
>>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>>> resources on the homepage.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----------------------
>>> Robert Morrison
>>> rmorrison@...
>>> 
>>> 310-397-2704
>>> 
>>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other
>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-17 by SKID Photography

> , SKID Photography <skid@b...> wrote:
> > Actually in the 1970s it was a 60/40 split...40% going to the gallery.
>
> Hey Harvey, I didn't say how many decades did I?
> Sorry, I wasn't actively involved in exhibiting 'til, literally, 1980.
> If what's happenning in stock starts spilling over to art, hold on to you hats, and your IRA's.
> Tyler
>

Are you referring to residuals?

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-18 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography <skid@b...> wrote:
> > If what's happenning in stock starts spilling over to art, hold on to you hats, and your IRA's.
> > Tyler
> >
> 
> Are you referring to residuals?

Harvey, unfortunately I have missed the stock boat to date. Bit every one of my friends heavily involved have been 
complaining bitterly for years now about their eroding position. The recent Getty contract, Corbis and Photodisk being local 
(photodisk even recruiting young shooters at graduating class portfolio shows), pretty much make it the main topic of 
discussion amongst my "fellows".
Alternatives seem to be brewing.
Probably way off topic for this list.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-18 by Robert G. Morrison

On 10/17/01 1:26 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> I'm told that the big-format HP and some other printers use solid colorant
> pigments.  Apparently they have very long lives (resistance to fading,
> etc.), but rather low gamut.  For the desktop, I'm also told they had not
> yet been ground finely enough to avoid clogs on our Epson printers.  If
> someone has succeeded, this could be a true advance.


Apparently they had problems initially with clogging but have a 6 nm grind
now...wow jet grinding has come a long way since I was in the business.
Apparently they have multiple users running desktop printers with a CIS.

> What black do they use?  Do they have a pure colorant that is blacker than
> carbon (more like dark brown, from what I can see) and just as fade
> resistant?  If so, that would be of real interest as a quad feedstock.

 Don't know...but I would guess that it is still carbon black...however, the
grind is critical.  If you can get a really fine grind...the particles will
pack tighter and give you a look more like dye.  Large particles have more
space that isn't black (particles on average are spherical).

But we'll see.  Very interesting.

Just want to say I really appreciate all your hard work to move this inkjet
technology forward.

Showed your "Tree" image to Robert Rex yesterday (he hadn't seen the first
print exchange)...and it got an instant "wow".

Robert


----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-18 by SKID Photography

Julian Thomas wrote:

> The dealer thing is tricky - dealers/ galleries can only take on a limited
> number of photographers. So there are always people - like me - spending a
> small fortune on portfolios, building up images. It would be really nice to
> be able to increase sales without relying on the whim of a third party.
> Maybe cooperatives, web sites, are a way forward?? BTW I'm crap at the
> commerce side, I have no interest in it. It feels like I've spent the last 2
> months doing nothing else.

In my limited experience, it seems that commercial success in an art career has as much to do with luck, as
anything else.  When I posted those 5 keys to success (in order of importance) 1, 2, and 3 were: who you know,
who knows you, and your ability to get along with people.  These hold true in this instance as well.

The way I found my dealer was a combination of those.  A friend got me at a show in a bookstore in San
Francisco, California ( I live in New York), another friend (in Miami, Florida) had a friend (in San
Francisco) who collected photography come to the opening.  That guy, brought a friend of his to the opening,
who was a dealer, and *he* asked to carry my work.  All, sort of, by chance.

That said, if had continued doing that type of work (they were nudes) I'd probably be doing better in the art
world today, but my situation changed, and I sort of got bored with them.  Another impediment to my success
was that I sort of missed the wave (fashion) of the late 80's when nudes were *the* thing.

Remember the collector friend who brought the dealer with him?  Well, he never purchased any of my work
(although he *had* collected nudes up until then.....early 1991) because.....are you ready for this...He
changed his collection subject matter to grain elevators and water towers.  Go figure.

So I don't have any advice expect to say that you should put most of your energies to making art (and loving
what you are doing), and talking to anyone who is interested in your work, and following up any leads that
these people might give you.  It has not been my experience that competitions, grants, contests, 'membership'
galleries, or websites he help, at all....but, you never know.

Nij wrote:

> Yes. This is all new to me too. But, it does seem like they (the galleries
> and dealers) perform a valid service for a percentage. It just _sounds_ a
> little steep to me to be charging 50% + money for snacks and drinks :)

<snip>
As in any business, there are hidden costs and expenses that are not comprehended by outsiders, but having a
gallery *is* a business, with expenses.

Nij wrote:

> <snip>
>
> To this extent in particular, I feel the web-gallery and the framing shop
> and the pub and (anywhere else we might look to get our work hung as
> 'advertising'?) are valuable entry-points to the market, to get some money
> into the system without having necessarily high costs.
>
> There is only one question after that... does such an approach limit your
> future possibilities into the art market? <snip>

I don't think what we (the generic 'us') do/did earlier in life would hurt a career.  In fact, a little dirt
<vgb> in our past might just help the bio of the 'former starving artist'.....Like Jean-Michel Basquiat.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-18 by Julian Thomas

Yeah I know... my dream is to find someone to sell my stuff whilsy I can
forget about it and just take photos. I mean THAT is hard enough!!!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues


> Yes. This is all new to me too. But, it does seem like they (the galleries
> and dealers) perform a valid service for a percentage. It just _sounds_ a
> little steep to me to be charging 50% + money for snacks and drinks :)
>
> However, consider... if you sold every print direct... noone would ever
get
> to see your work... without you running your own gallery, or you having
your
> own personal bar that you could use as gallery space. etc etc. In that
> sense, the gallery, the exhibition, the framing shop window are all
> opportunities for you to get your name better known, and to have people
> asking for more work, potentially even commisioning work (tho... does that
> work with Street photography OR Found Objects ???) <grins>
>
> Nij
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: SKID Photography [mailto:skid@...]
> <snip>
> > You ask how to get to the collectors?  That *is* the big
> > question...And that is where the galleries and
> > dealers come in.  It is *their* job to find those people..  They
> > have galleries, which they advertise and
> > promote, in order to get collectors interested enough to come in.
> >  They do press releases, maintain and send
> > out mailing lists, schmooze with art critics etc.  Yes, we might
> > be able to do that part ourselves, but then
> > it takes away from the time we want to use making art in the
> > first place.  Some people enjoy it, some are
> > terrible at it.  The choice is yours, but still remember, do not
> > confuse art and commerce.
> >
> <snip>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-18 by Julian Thomas

> Not very good odds, huh?
> Cathy
>
>
kinda depressing...! I was looking at a web gallery today that specialises
in selling limited editions. They want a monthly fee, 35% of the sales, and
to have copies of the prints in hand.

Julian

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-18 by Julian Thomas

Others will  know more than I Nij, but this percentage is tricky - Since my
'print it big' gallery visit I've had a couple more. To both I quoted
'unframed' prices, so that the cost of framing would be added after any
percentage split. One gallery wanted to know how much 'I' wanted i.e. not a
sale price but how much I wanted to take home per print - they wouldn't be
drawn on how much they'd sell for - the other was happy to add  framing
costs after the 50% split.

Julian

Re: [Digital BW] Lenswork issues

2001-10-18 by SKID Photography

Julian Thomas wrote:

> Others will  know more than I Nij, but this percentage is tricky - Since my
> 'print it big' gallery visit I've had a couple more. To both I quoted
> 'unframed' prices, so that the cost of framing would be added after any
> percentage split. One gallery wanted to know how much 'I' wanted i.e. not a
> sale price but how much I wanted to take home per print - they wouldn't be
> drawn on how much they'd sell for - the other was happy to add  framing
> costs after the 50% split.

When I've done (real) gallery shows, the gallery paid for all the framing etc.  We agreed on a price for the
prints, and that I would get half.  Any discounts offered to collectors, came out of their half.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-18 by Tony Caltabiano

Robert Rex was very nice to drive out to my place today.  we had a 
good talk, but one of the real treats was seeing Robert & Martin's 
images - coated and uncoated - I really liked what I saw.  That was 
the first time I have seen any coatings, and I have to say I was 
impressed.  And, of course, I liked the Museo too!

best to all,
Tony


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Had a nice visit with Robert Rex yesterday.  He is now traveling 
with
> Morrison coated Museo prints (PiezoBW and Color Piezo) if you would 
like to
> see something sooner than the next print exchange. Martin, also saw 
your
> coated Museo prints for the first time.  They look nice...really 
like the
> image...but I see the application problems you were having.  I
don't 
think
> you will have the samme problems on Museo with my formula.  Museo 
365g is
> probably the easiest paper out there to coat...followed closely by 
Eclipse
> and Photo Rag.
> 
> Robert
> 
> PS  Robert can't say enough about the Indelible Ink set...that I 
think was
> talked about briefly several weeks back...I think I'm going to
check 
it out
> for color...and maybe run some duoton

Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-19 by Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:

(snip)

> Martin, also saw your
> coated Museo prints for the first time.  They look nice...really 
like the
> image...but I see the application problems you were having.  I 
don't think
> you will have the samme problems on Museo with my formula.  Museo 
365g is
> probably the easiest paper out there to coat...followed closely by 
Eclipse
> and Photo Rag.


Robert,

Glad you liked the image and got to see some of my coating efforts. 
Those were some of the best. Can you give us an update as to when 
your coating will be available for sale?

Martin

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-19 by Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:


(snip).
> 
> 
> Apparently they had problems initially with clogging but have a 6 
nm grind
> now...wow jet grinding has come a long way since I was in the 
business.
> Apparently they have multiple users running desktop printers with a 
CIS.

Robert,

What is jet grinding? I have been out of the busness for a long time 
now but for volume production horizontal and vertical (Morehouse) 
sandmills with lead crystal or zirconia shot were the way to go. 
Vibratory mills (Sweco?) were very good for small batches but output 
was low.

Are they milling the carbon at high viscosity (40,000+ cps)and 
letting down or are they working with more dilute solutions?

Martin Wesley


> 
> > What black do they use?  Do they have a pure colorant that is 
blacker than
> > carbon (more like dark brown, from what I can see) and just as 
fade
> > resistant?  If so, that would be of real interest as a quad 
feedstock.
> 
>  Don't know...but I would guess that it is still carbon 
black...however, the
> grind is critical.  If you can get a really fine grind...the 
particles will
> pack tighter and give you a look more like dye.  Large particles 
have more
> space that isn't black (particles on average are spherical).


Lamp black from the combustion of acetylene perhaps?

Martin Wesley

(snip)

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-19 by Robert Morrison

> What is jet grinding? I have been out of the busness for a long time
> now but for volume production horizontal and vertical (Morehouse)
> sandmills with lead crystal or zirconia shot were the way to go.
> Vibratory mills (Sweco?) were very good for small batches but output
> was low.
> 
> Are they milling the carbon at high viscosity (40,000+ cps)and
> letting down or are they working with more dilute solutions?
> 

The pigment is ground using high velocity air...the machine is incredibly
controllable so that you can get very precise grind distributions.  The
numbers that Jim Robbins quoted me...6nm...well its pretty incredible...but
I got out the Jet grinding field back in 1993...so I'm not surprised that
they have improved much since then...given it was state of the art then.
All the grinding would probably be done dry and then they would formulate
the ink.

Robert

Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-19 by Robert Morrison

On 10/18/01 7:09 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> Glad you liked the image and got to see some of my coating efforts.
> Those were some of the best. Can you give us an update as to when
> your coating will be available for sale?
> 
> Martin


I should have more info next week...things are moving fast...but there is
much to do.

Just to let you know...the list of inks that I know my coating works with
include:

Epson Archival Dye (1270/1280)--Robert Rex has two small samples
Epson Pigmented Inks (2000P, 7500, 9500, 10000)
Color Piezography--Robert Rex has one sample
PiezoBW--Robert Rex has 4 samples

MIS will be evaluated soon...but I'm sure they will perform like piezo.
Indelible will be evaluated soon.

Robert

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-19 by Robert Morrison

Talked to Kami at photoinkjet.com today and she said they have multiple
customers that are using this ink set (both Epson 10000 and desktop printers
with CIS) and absolutely love it...no negative comments (no clogging).

Robert

Re: [Digital BW] Robert Rex Visit & Indelible

2001-10-19 by Robert Morrison

On 10/18/01 11:23 AM, "Tony Caltabiano" <calpen1@...> wrote:

> Robert Rex was very nice to drive out to my place today.  we had a
> good talk, but one of the real treats was seeing Robert & Martin's
> images - coated and uncoated - I really liked what I saw.  That was
> the first time I have seen any coatings, and I have to say I was
> impressed.  And, of course, I liked the Museo too!
> 
Thanks Tony.  The Museo 365 is a joy to coat...its simply beautiful
paper...the coating lays beautifully.  I love the way the BW images gain
"presence" with the coating...but honestly the color piezo image that I gave
Robert blows me away coated.  For those who haven't seen it its a photo I
took at a "magic mushroom" market in Zhong Dian China...a little rural
village in the foothills of the Himalyias.  The photo is of three Tibetan
woman with color garb and baskets crowding around a vendor's table with
shrooms.  The colors are almost unbelievably vivid.  The thing that captured
me about the coated photo is the incredible dimensionality that the bright
colors take on...their tonal range is enhanced just like the blacks are in a
BW image. Color is incredible on Mueso...absolutely my favorite paper for
color applications.  Robert Rex says its even more incredible with the
Indelable Ink set...we'll see.

Robert Morrison

RE: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-19 by Nij

I thought the procedure for getting carbon pigment(ed) ink was as follows:
  Sharpen 5000 2B pencils to stubs and hopper the shavings (they use the 2B
to get the blacker carbon, I understand)
  Run the pencil shaving through a special wood shaving extractor, or burn
in an ashtray;
  They then use a **** multichef to mix the carbon in with the liquid
carrier and add a bit of dye (dependent upon which ink is being
manufactured).

The liquid ink is then piped into the cartridges, and left to stand for two
hours before sealing (the carts).

Hope this is helpful to someone ;)

Nij
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Are they milling the carbon at high viscosity (40,000+ cps)and
> letting down or are they working with more dilute solutions?

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-19 by Julian Thomas

Go on, try it, I dare you. Mix it up and stick it in your 7000!!??

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks


> I thought the procedure for getting carbon pigment(ed) ink was as follows:
>   Sharpen 5000 2B pencils to stubs and hopper the shavings (they use the
2B
> to get the blacker carbon, I understand)
>   Run the pencil shaving through a special wood shaving extractor, or burn
> in an ashtray;
>   They then use a **** multichef to mix the carbon in with the liquid
> carrier and add a bit of dye (dependent upon which ink is being
> manufactured).
>
> The liquid ink is then piped into the cartridges, and left to stand for
two
> hours before sealing (the carts).
>
> Hope this is helpful to someone ;)
>
> Nij
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> > Are they milling the carbon at high viscosity (40,000+ cps)and
> > letting down or are they working with more dilute solutions?
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-19 by Robert Morrison

You're hired...but why not 9B pencils?

Robert

On 10/19/01 4:31 AM, "Nij" <nigel@...> wrote:

> I thought the procedure for getting carbon pigment(ed) ink was as follows:
> Sharpen 5000 2B pencils to stubs and hopper the shavings (they use the 2B
> to get the blacker carbon, I understand)
> Run the pencil shaving through a special wood shaving extractor, or burn
> in an ashtray;
> They then use a **** multichef to mix the carbon in with the liquid
> carrier and add a bit of dye (dependent upon which ink is being
> manufactured).
> 
> The liquid ink is then piped into the cartridges, and left to stand for two
> hours before sealing (the carts).
> 
> Hope this is helpful to someone ;)
> 
> Nij
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
>> Are they milling the carbon at high viscosity (40,000+ cps)and
>> letting down or are they working with more dilute solutions?
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Inks

2001-10-22 by Robert Morrison

Just a quick update on the Indelible ink set.  Robert Rex stopped back by my
place today to show me actual samples of prints made with this ink set on
Museo.  These comments are based on seeing prints produced by
others...without proper controls produced with competitive products...so its
a little hard to say anything definitive...but I'll report what I saw.

I used the "eyeball densitometer" to compare blacks between 1270 dye based
ink, Color Piezo, PiezoBW and the Indelible Black.  To my eye the Indelible
black on Museo was weaker than the 1270 black on Museo and stronger than
either the color piezo or piezoBW black on Museo.  It seemed to be similar
in dmax to piezoBW black on Hahnemuhle papers (photo rag or german etching).

Several gray wedges (several different profiles by several different people)
that I say were not neutral (tended towards green)...but as those of you
know that try to use color inks to produce BW prints...getting neutral
results takes a lot of work.

By far the most striking characteristic of this ink set is not the black,
but rather the rest of the colors.  They have guts unlike anything else I've
ever seen come out of an ink jet printer.  The yellow looks like cadmium
yellow straight out of an artist's paint tube...wow.  The red's and oranges
are equally impressive.  Saw a metallic gold that would make a jeweler
drool!  My guess is that properly profiled...these inks would produce
stunning color images...I don't know about BW images...will take some
experimentation.  Apparently they have plans for a quad product...but who
knows when.

I have also heard some amazing claims about longevity...but I haven't seen
fades.  These claims are consistent with what I understand about the
technology, but until they publish their results on a web site its rather
difficult to verify.

That's it for now...hopefully I get a chance to play with the ink in the
next several weeks.

Robert
----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

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