Digital BW, The Print

I tried using a Epson 1270 with Lyson quad blacks last year, and the prints 
started fading within months! So I happily bought the 2200 and am happy for 
the most part, but cannot seem to get consistent results when printing black 
and white images. I've thought about buying  another 2200 and looking into 
3rd party inks again, but after getting burned by the  Lyson inks I'm not sure 
where to go with this. What are most of you doing for nice B&W prints?  I'm 
using epson velvet for most prints and print mostly portraits.

Thanks,
Lynne Siler

either $400 Imageprint or around the same price for septone inks and driver
(at least with the former you can do colour as well) - either way it's a
ripoff...

But having just bit the bullet and got Imageprint, it does do a very nice
job. B&W on Fine Art Hot Pressed look lovely (and it generally prints better
colour on a lot of papers)

Or if you a MAC person - you can try one of the free RIPish options out
there

tim

At 11:00 AM 5/14/2004, Lynne Siler wrote:
>I tried using a Epson 1270 with Lyson quad blacks last year, and the prints
>started fading within months! So I happily bought the 2200 and am happy for
>the most part, but cannot seem to get consistent results when printing black
>and white images. I've thought about buying  another 2200 and looking into
>3rd party inks again, but after getting burned by the  Lyson inks I'm not 
>sure
>where to go with this. What are most of you doing for nice B&W prints?  I'm
>using epson velvet for most prints and print mostly portraits.

I'm using MIS UT-FS inks with the Cone driver -- right now on a 1520, but 
I'll be moving to a 1160 or 3000.  Image quality is great, and fading such 
not be an issue.


  A r t h u r    F i n k      P h o t o g r a p h y
  .................................................
  Ten New Island Avenue     · 207.766.5722
  Peaks Island, Maine 04108 · arthur@...

anyone know what the free MAC RIPish options are/where
to get them/download? That sounds great!!
Thanks,
Julie
--- Tim Atherton <timatherton@...> wrote:
> either $400 Imageprint or around the same price for
> septone inks and driver
> (at least with the former you can do colour as well)
> - either way it's a
> ripoff...
> 
> But having just bit the bullet and got Imageprint,
> it does do a very nice
> job. B&W on Fine Art Hot Pressed look lovely (and it
> generally prints better
> colour on a lot of papers)
> 
> Or if you a MAC person - you can try one of the free
> RIPish options out
> there
> 
> tim
> 
> 
> 
> 


	
		
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> anyone know what the free MAC RIPish options are/where
> to get them/download? That sounds great!!
> Thanks,
> Julie

not being a MAC person - I may have misspoken slightly... I have a feeling
you need to use them with other inks. But I vaguely remember there was also
some form of RIP type software available.

tim

Mac or PC?  If Mac, before buying any other inks try out Roy Harrington's QTR.  If that 
works for you it is only $50 and you can use the standard Epson inks (or any other ink set 
for that matter).


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lynne Siler" <lhsiler@b...> 
wrote:

> I tried using a Epson 1270 with Lyson quad blacks last year, and the prints 
> started fading within months! So I happily bought the 2200 and am happy for 
> the most part, but cannot seem to get consistent results when printing black 
> and white images. I've thought about buying  another 2200 and looking into 
> 3rd party inks again, but after getting burned by the  Lyson inks I'm not sure 
> where to go with this. What are most of you doing for nice B&W prints?  I'm 
> using epson velvet for most prints and print mostly portraits.
> 
> Thanks,
> Lynne Siler

You can use the Epson inks.


http://harrington.com/index.shtml


and click on Quadtone RIP at the bottom.  It comes with curves for the 2200 or if you 
prefer at a later point you can make your own.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tim Atherton <timatherton@t...> 
wrote:

> 
> > anyone know what the free MAC RIPish options are/where
> > to get them/download? That sounds great!!
> > Thanks,
> > Julie
> 
> not being a MAC person - I may have misspoken slightly... I have a feeling
> you need to use them with other inks. But I vaguely remember there was also
> some form of RIP type software available.
> 
> tim

I just have to take exception to all those who complain that Imageprint - and many other software products - is a ripoff.  Maybe it's a matter of definition.  A ripoff is generally meant to describe a situation where one does not get what was expected when they paid their money.  Imageprint certainly does not fit that category.  We know exactly what we are getting when we send Colorbyte our money.  And, Colorbyte delivers.  I just don't see how that is a ripoff. Expensive, yes.  Ripoff, definitely not.  'Supply and demand', 'competition', 'free market forces', etc., are all at work here.  None of us are being forced to send Colorbyte, or other RIP makers, our money.   If there is a better, cheaper solution out there, let it preset itself.
 
Why would anyone believe that software developers should not be paid for their efforts?
 
Tom Baker

Tim Atherton <timatherton@...> wrote:
either $400 Imageprint or around the same price for septone inks and driver
(at least with the former you can do colour as well) - either way it's a
ripoff...

But having just bit the bullet and got Imageprint, it does do a very nice
job. B&W on Fine Art Hot Pressed look lovely (and it generally prints better
colour on a lot of papers)

Or if you a MAC person - you can try one of the free RIPish options out
there

tim






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I just have to take exception to all those who complain that
> Imageprint - and many other software products - is a ripoff.

the ripoff is in having to spend $400-$500 to be able to get the printer to
do what the manufacturer claimed/claims it can do - i.e. print B&W

On top of which, for Imageprint - while it does, basically, do the job it
supposed to do fairly well , it is one of the clunkiest and worst designed
pieces of software out there - especially if you are paying $1500 to $2000
or more for the "full" version.

there is no real reason - apart from complacent market dominance - why Epson
could not produce a printer that actually does this out of the box.

tim a

actually, it is not a rip off.  it is very specialize low volume software.  no one complains 
about $400 for uSoft stuff which ships in gazillions.

or for the same price as a 2200 and IP you can get a 4000, since it includes $500 worth of 
ink.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tim Atherton <timatherton@t...> 
wrote:

> either $400 Imageprint or around the same price for septone inks and driver
> (at least with the former you can do colour as well) - either way it's a
> ripoff...
> 
> But having just bit the bullet and got Imageprint, it does do a very nice

The solution is a custom profile for your paper. All the printers cannot possibly be
manufactured EXACTLY alike, so the profiles shipped are sort of a compromise. In
color a tiny (small?) shift is un-noticable, in B&W is stands out like a sore thumb. There 
notes on these groups recommending people who will make the profile for about $40.

Or if you can afford a 4000, I highly recommend it. I am getting neutral B&W "out of the
box", after trying a couple of different color management setups. And the ink cost is a lot
lower than for a 2200.  It also comes with about $500 worth of ink, which lightens the 
blow a bit.

While ICC color management is usually considered the best, for B&W Epson recommends 
using the print driver color management. And by golly it works: using ICC with the "great" 
new 4000 profiles gave me olive midtones, and the PD gave me cool
neutral. You might try it with your 2200.

Incidentally, Epson says that the new generation of manufacturing techniques used on the
4000 makes the machines much more alike.

Scott

PS: you could also go black only, but I consider than an inferior compromise, and the
Epson black is a bit warm.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lynne Siler" <lhsiler@b...> 
wrote:

> I tried using a Epson 1270 with Lyson quad blacks last year, and the prints 
> started fading within months! So I happily bought the 2200 and am happy for 
> the most part, but cannot seem to get consistent results when printing black 
> and white images. I've thought about buying  another 2200 and looking into 
> 3rd party inks again, but after getting burned by the  Lyson inks I'm not sure 
> where to go with this. What are most of you doing for nice B&W prints?  I'm 
> using epson velvet for most prints and print mostly portraits.
> 
> Thanks,
> Lynne Siler

> From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@...]
>
> I just have to take exception to all those who complain that
> Imageprint - and many other software products - is a ripoff.
> Maybe it's a matter of definition.  A ripoff is generally meant
> to describe a situation where one does not get what was expected
> when they paid their money.  Imageprint certainly does not fit
> that category.  We know exactly what we are getting when we send
> Colorbyte our money.  And, Colorbyte delivers.  I just don't see
> how that is a ripoff. Expensive, yes.  Ripoff, definitely not.

My three problems with IP are: you have to buy it twice if you have two
printers, it's staggeringly buggy (at least under Windows), and on the 2200,
glossy B&W prints have somewhat worse bronzing.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Then the complaint is with Epson, not the RIP makers.  But, again, if IP is such a bad product, don't put your money on the table to buy it.  I did, am I'm quite happy with it.  It's not perfect, but I don't know that I'd call it clunky.  And, look around, it's not anywhere near being among the worst designed pieces of software available.  
 
Not to be sounding in Epsons defense, but do they actually advertise that their printers are capable of producing neutral b&w prints right out of the box?  If they do, why doesn't someone hold their feet to the fire about it?  I've wondered for a while now if Epson isn't actually making an effort, for reasons I can't see, to produce products and software that require third party RIP's to get the best results.  Could be that there is not enough return for Epson to develop top notch software that would run only on their printers.  While the RIP manufacturers can market their basic RIP to many different manufacturers.  In any case, I believe you're correct about Epson promoting (either implicitly or explecitly) top rung results right out of the box, and not being able to deliver.
 
Tom Baker

Tim Atherton <timatherton@...> wrote:

> I just have to take exception to all those who complain that
> Imageprint - and many other software products - is a ripoff.

the ripoff is in having to spend $400-$500 to be able to get the printer to
do what the manufacturer claimed/claims it can do - i.e. print B&W

On top of which, for Imageprint - while it does, basically, do the job it
supposed to do fairly well , it is one of the clunkiest and worst designed
pieces of software out there - especially if you are paying $1500 to $2000
or more for the "full" version.

there is no real reason - apart from complacent market dominance - why Epson
could not produce a printer that actually does this out of the box.

tim a





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't use all of the various layout capabilities, so maybe I don't see all of the bugs.  But, the only bug I have seen that is really a problem is the one about deleting unfinished/unprinted jobs without rebooting.  Also, I've only noticed serious bronzing on the RC papers, which I don't use much.  I don't see it at all on the rag papers I use.
 
Tom Baker

"Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...> wrote:
> From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@sbcglobal.net]
>
> I just have to take exception to all those who complain that
> Imageprint - and many other software products - is a ripoff.
> Maybe it's a matter of definition. A ripoff is generally meant
> to describe a situation where one does not get what was expected
> when they paid their money. Imageprint certainly does not fit
> that category. We know exactly what we are getting when we send
> Colorbyte our money. And, Colorbyte delivers. I just don't see
> how that is a ripoff. Expensive, yes. Ripoff, definitely not.

My three problems with IP are: you have to buy it twice if you have two
printers, it's staggeringly buggy (at least under Windows), and on the 2200,
glossy B&W prints have somewhat worse bronzing.

--

Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
Paul mailto:pderocco@...




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The printer business is very competitive and the companies are nearly giving away the 
printers, especially the consumer models like the 2200.

So you can hardly expect a rip to be included which only a few nuts LIKE ME would care 
about.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> 
wrote:
> Then the complaint is with Epson, not the RIP makers.  But, again, if IP is such a bad 
product, don't put your money on the table to buy it.  I did, am I'm quite happy with it.  It's 
not perfect, but I don't know that I'd call it clunky.  And, look around, it's not anywhere 
near being among the worst designed pieces of software available.

I have been harping about this too and gotten slapped around on 
various forums.   Some part of Epson's revenue from printer slaes is 
based upon it's claim that its printers produce professional quality 
B&W out of the box, which is not the case.  Epson should therefore 
either (a) revise its drivers so that they do what's promised or (b) 
stopping making innacurate representations.  As to why no one has 
held their feet to the fire on this: I agree.  The basic theory would 
be misrepresentation/breach of implied warranty of fitness.  Now, if 
I filed a lawsuit years ago.  But since I'm not, I've relegated 
myself to complaining fruitlessly to Epson directly and on the 
internet.  :-)



> Not to be sounding in Epsons defense, but do they actually 
advertise that their printers are capable of producing neutral b&w 
prints right out of the box?  If they do, why doesn't someone hold 
their feet to the fire about it?  I've wondered for a while now if 
Epson isn't actually making an effort, for reasons I can't see, to 
produce products and software that require third party RIP's to get 
the best results.  Could be that there is not enough return for Epson 
to develop top notch software that would run only on their printers.  
While the RIP manufacturers can market their basic RIP to many 
different manufacturers.  In any case, I believe you're correct about 
Epson promoting (either implicitly or explecitly) top rung results 
right out of the box, and not being able to deliver.
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
> Tim Atherton <timatherton@t...> wrote:
> 
> > I just have to take exception to all those who complain that
> > Imageprint - and many other software products - is a ripoff.
> 
> the ripoff is in having to spend $400-$500 to be able to get the 
printer to
> do what the manufacturer claimed/claims it can do - i.e. print B&W
> 
> On top of which, for Imageprint - while it does, basically, do the 
job it
> supposed to do fairly well , it is one of the clunkiest and worst 
designed
> pieces of software out there - especially if you are paying $1500 
to $2000
> or more for the "full" version.
> 
> there is no real reason - apart from complacent market dominance - 
why Epson
> could not produce a printer that actually does this out of the box.
> 
> tim a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Except, for B&W purposes, we're not talking about a full RIP like 
ImagePrint, with page layout, color correction, hundreds of profiles, 
tinting, etc.  All we're talking about is Epson rewriting the 
existing driver to use its inks in a different combinition to produce 
nueteal metamerism-free prints.  So, Epson would simply be changing 
the ratios of ink laid down to create various shades of gray.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Graham" 
<gebilwil@n...> wrote:
> The printer business is very competitive and the companies are 
nearly giving away the 
> printers, especially the consumer models like the 2200.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> I have been harping about this too and gotten slapped around on 
> various forums.   Some part of Epson's revenue from printer slaes 
is 
> based upon it's claim that its printers produce professional 
quality 
> B&W out of the box, which is not the case.  Epson should therefore 
> either (a) revise its drivers so that they do what's promised or 
(b) 
> stopping making innacurate representations.  As to why no one has 
> held their feet to the fire on this: I agree.  The basic theory 
would 
> be misrepresentation/breach of implied warranty of fitness.  Now, 
if 
> I filed a lawsuit years ago.  But since I'm not, I've relegated 
> myself to complaining fruitlessly to Epson directly and on the 
> internet.  :-)
> 
> 
> 

Hi Chip,
The same holds true for the Epson scanners. The 4870 scanner (I have 
one), undoubtedly the best for the price, has numerous problems that 
must be addressed. For instance, Epson says that it has digital ICE 
capability, an algorithm for removing dust scratches and other 
nasties from the scans. 

Epson fails to say, anywhere in it's literature, that it doesn't work 
for scans above 2400 DPI, and 1800 in some cases. 

The media holders that it ships with the unit seem more appropriate 
to Corn Flakes box Premiums. They warp if you squint too hard at 
them. 

Man it's the agony and the ecstasy with Epson products. I'd seriously 
considered buying a 4000 printer but there are the same BS bugaboos 
with it that stop me from spending over two grand for the unit, a 
good rip and still get metamerism, an aggressive no-3rd-party-ink-
scheme, and crap like that. I'll farm out my big prints.
Not to fear Chip, you are being heard.

Jules

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale" <> 
> 
> supposing you are using PS 6-7-or higher try this:
use Epson Archival Matte Paper. In the printer driver use Colour-no 
colour management-Archival matte Paper (or whatever the expression 
the pop-up menue is)-select your printer resolution.
In PS print with pre.view: use as source the profile of your image 
(either Grey Gamma 2.2 or Adobe 1998)-in the source pop-up use the 
profile of your paper (SP2100-Archival Matte MK or PK (it does not 
really matter) <or similar words>) and in rendering 
intent "perceptive". Then print and see. No guarantees, but it works 
with me. Only problem might bother you is slightly uneven printing in
large even surfaces(clouds). 
Best of luck
John

The basic problem with the 2200 is metamerism, which means that 
black and white prints have DIFFERENT color casts under different 
light sources.  For instance, the same print might look greenish 
under daylight and pinkish under "daylight fluorescents"

This is caused by pigmented inks Epson uses for color stability 
having uneven spectral response curves, especially the yellow ink, 
so it CANNOT be fixed with Photoshop curves or "gray balancing" 
tools, etc, because those can't control the distribution and ratios 
of individual inks.   You have 3 options:

1.  The Image Print RIP is your best bet but it's around $400.  It 
has a special driver which allows it to use a different mix of the 
inks (essentially it takes advantage of the fact that the black and 
light blacks are really sepia, so it can get "yellow" that way and 
not have to use so much actual yellow ink.  See my scans:
http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22003.htm
Epson had a RIP like that but they discontinued it.

2.  Black Only.  Tell the printer to only use the black ink - it's a 
setting in the driver.  I've done extensive tests with this method 
and even have a (current) gallery show with some BO prints (on 
tinted paper).   BUT -  I did an experiment that involved visual 
acuity and it made one thing really clear : there was an 
overwhelming inverse correlation between closeup visual acuity and 
tolerance for BO prints.   People with poor close vision like them; 
people with good close vision find the dots and coareseness in the 
midtones objectionable.   I suggest if you do BO printing, only use 
it for large prints that will be viewed from far away.  I also 
suggest that if you don't see the dots, have your eyeglass 
prescription updated.

3.  3rd party quadtone/hextone/septone inks.  I have no experience 
with this on the 2200, but I wouldn't advise it if you also want to 
routinely do color printing with the same printer because switching 
between two inksets is a major hassle.

Or you can as I do and send your BW digital files out to be printed 
on photographic paper at a pro lab.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tim Atherton 
<timatherton@t...> wrote:
> 
> > I just have to take exception to all those who complain that
> > Imageprint - and many other software products - is a ripoff.
> 
> the ripoff is in having to spend $400-$500 to be able
> to get the printer to do what the manufacturer 
> claimed/claims it can do 

But then WHO is doing the ripping-off?

Maybe it makes the 2200 a ripoff because it appears to promise good 
BW printing without delivering.  But the metamerism is obvious even 
in Epson's sample prints which you could see BEFORE buying the 
printer. 

Maybe it makes outfits like Luminous Landscape rip-off artists 
because in their early reviews of the 2200 they GUSHED over how 
Epson had finally fixed the metamerism in their earlier printers 
such as a the 2000 - except that L.L. reviews are free.

But that doesn't make ImagePrint a ripoff.   I agree that it does 
the job; you know exactly what you're getting, and no one FORCES you 
to buy IP.

> there is no real reason - apart from complacent market
> dominance - why Epson could not produce a printer that 
> actually does this out of the box.

That's true, but sisnce everyone KNOWS it can't do decent out-of-the-
box BW printing then who's doing the ripping off?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Graham" 
<gebilwil@n...> wrote:
> The solution is a custom profile for your paper. All the printers 
cannot possibly be
> manufactured EXACTLY alike, so the profiles shipped are sort of a 
compromise. In
> color a tiny (small?) shift is un-noticable, in B&W is stands out 
like a sore thumb. There 
> notes on these groups recommending people who will make the 
profile for about $40.

That won't fix the 2200's metamerism because metamerism produces 
DIFFERENT casts under different light.   All a custom profile can do 
is produce an outstandingly neutral BW print for one, specific light 
source.  And you can do that yourself with a good profiler and PS.

The Epson yellow ink is the culprit - a custom profile has no 
control over the ink mix because it still uses the default Epson 
driver.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> I have been harping about this too and gotten slapped around on 
> various forums.   Some part of Epson's revenue from printer slaes 
is 
> based upon it's claim that its printers produce professional 
quality 
> B&W out of the box, which is not the case. 


I've never seen them make that claim.  Where did you see it?   All 
their sample BW prints that they gave away promoting the 2200 had 
tons of metamerism!  And you can't say they were lying because right 
out of the box on Epson Enhanced Matte you could make a print every 
bit as good (i.e., bad) as their sample prints.

Agreed, I was trying to remain neutral   :~)

and not speaking of metamerism with which I have very little experience. 

I do not seem to get it from my 4000 though, based on step wedges and a few prints.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@s...> 
wrote:

> That won't fix the 2200's metamerism because metamerism produces 
> DIFFERENT casts under different light.   All a custom profile can do 
> is produce an outstandingly neutral BW print for one, specific light 
> source.  And you can do that yourself with a good profiler and PS.
> 
> The Epson yellow ink is the culprit - a custom profile has no 
> control over the ink mix because it still uses the default Epson 
> driver.

I agree a custom profile works wonders. A friend with access to an i1
profiled Museo and Entrada bright white for me. The Museo makes a nice warm
toned print and the Entrada slightly cool toned. The natural tone Entrada
would probably be similar to the Museo. All very even toned throughout the
scale, though, no color shifts anywhere. More experimentation with papers
might yield the most neutral results, but if you had to pay for profiles,
could get pretty expensive!

Steve

On 5/14/04 10:45 AM, "Scott Graham" <gebilwil@...> wrote:

> The solution is a custom profile for your paper.  All the printers cannot
> possibly be 
> manufactured EXACTLY alike, so the profiles shipped are sort of a compromise.
> In color a 
> tiny (small?) shift is un-noticable, in B&W is stands out like a sore thumb.
> There notes on 
> these groups recommending people who will make the profile for about $40.

Tom-

I have IP licenses for 2200 and 4000. It works great...but there is 
no question it IS klunky. But why? because Colorbyte Software is a 
very small company and they have limited development resources; so 
where do we want them to use the development time? more cool 
features? more paper profiles (last count there were about 150 "free" 
paper profiles that get updated and added to regularly)? or simpler 
UI? I want it all, too, but you must have patience, grasshopper...

As far as I know (would love to know if I'm wrong), this is the best 
solution available at any price for PC users. Expensive? all depends 
on how much time and material you waste making "trial" prints without 
a RIP...and how many prints you make overall...or how badly you want 
to improve your print...

Anyhow, my biggest fear is that some large company (Epson or whoever) 
will bring out a product that does a half assed job and puts 
colorbyte out of business and we never do see the perfect RIP !!!

cheers,

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Then the complaint is with Epson, not the RIP makers.  But, again, 
if IP is such a bad product, don't put your money on the table to buy 
it.  I did, am I'm quite happy with it.  It's not perfect, but I 
don't know that I'd call it clunky.  And, look around, it's not 
anywhere near being among the worst designed pieces of software 
available.  
> supposed to do fairly well , it is one of the clunkiest and worst 
designed
> pieces of software out there - especially if you are paying $1500 
to $2000
> or more for the "full" version.
> 
> there is no real reason - apart from complacent market dominance - 
why Epson
> could not produce a printer that actually does this out of the box.

The other annoying thing about Imageprint (yes, it is very clunky and 
incredibly buggy - the interface appears to have been a 10th grade 
computer class project) is the vapourware of IP6.

Promised last October ("it will be a couple of weeks for the MAC 
version and the Windows version two or three weeks following") It has 
still yet to appear. References to it appear and disappear on the 
Colorbyte website.

Over the last two months I have seen three more pronouncements from 
them that IP six will be shipping in a week to ten days (along with 
constantly contradictory statements about who will be eligable for a 
free upgrade and how far back that will be "grandfathered" in) - and 
what do you know - IP6 still hasn't shown itself.

And don't give me the old "well, it's better to release a product 
when all the bugs have been wrinkled out" etc etc - no. it's just bad 
planning and bad business to announce an unrealistic product release 
which you should know you can't meet, and then keep stringing clients 
and customers along with more "the cheques in the mail" type of waffle

It's an overpriced and badly designed product which does what it's 
supposed to do fairly well (but it doesn't always do that), with 
extortionate service contracts (which you need if you are relying on 
this for business, because it's so buggy and something is always 
screwing up) and gets away with it because it's the only game in town 
and has no competition - and for that we are supposed to be grateful 
and smile while handing over our dollars...? Yeah right.

Don't buy it then. 
 
Tom Baker

mark_gatehouse <mark_gatehouse@...> wrote:
The other annoying thing about Imageprint (yes, it is very clunky and 
incredibly buggy - the interface appears to have been a 10th grade 
computer class project) is the vapourware of IP6.

Promised last October ("it will be a couple of weeks for the MAC 
version and the Windows version two or three weeks following") It has 
still yet to appear. References to it appear and disappear on the 
Colorbyte website.

Over the last two months I have seen three more pronouncements from 
them that IP six will be shipping in a week to ten days (along with 
constantly contradictory statements about who will be eligable for a 
free upgrade and how far back that will be "grandfathered" in) - and 
what do you know - IP6 still hasn't shown itself.

And don't give me the old "well, it's better to release a product 
when all the bugs have been wrinkled out" etc etc - no. it's just bad 
planning and bad business to announce an unrealistic product release 
which you should know you can't meet, and then keep stringing clients 
and customers along with more "the cheques in the mail" type of waffle

It's an overpriced and badly designed product which does what it's 
supposed to do fairly well (but it doesn't always do that), with 
extortionate service contracts (which you need if you are relying on 
this for business, because it's so buggy and something is always 
screwing up) and gets away with it because it's the only game in town 
and has no competition - and for that we are supposed to be grateful 
and smile while handing over our dollars...? Yeah right.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Don't buy it then. 

Well, if we had known this 18 months or so ago we wouldn't have...

We have three wideformat machines in a major museum and archives on 
which we have been running IP. But it has become such an annoyance we 
won't be renewing our service contract and are going to different 
options where we can. Quadtones/Septones on one along with greytag 
Macbeth profiling for the colour work.

Of course we can still run the IP, but it will now be for secondary 
use most of the time now.

mark.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve German 
<sgphotographics@e...> wrote:
> All very even toned throughout the
> scale, though, no color shifts anywhere. More 
> experimentation with papers might yield the most neutral
> results, but if you had to pay for profiles,
> could get pretty expensive!

You still haven'r explained how a custom profile would fix 
metamerism, since the metamerism, since it doesn't exert any control 
over individual ink selection.

I agree that a custom profile can make a nice neutral print FOR A 
SPECIFIC LIGHT SOURCE.

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mark_gatehouse" 
<mark_gatehouse@y...> wrote:
> 
> > Don't buy it then. 
> 
> Well, if we had known this 18 months or so ago
> we wouldn't have...
> 
> We have three wideformat machines in a major museum
> and archives on which we have been running IP. But it
> has become such an annoyance we won't be renewing 
> our service contract and are going to different options
> where we can. 

This raises a good point.    It's one thing for those of us who are 
printing as a hobby or for small one-man photography businesses to 
glom onto whatever Mac or linux freeware or shareware we can find, 
or buy products from tiny two-guys-in-a-basement RIP makers or 
quadtone ink makers.  

But if you have a real business or institution like a museum at 
stake it would be good to deal with something more substantive.  In 
all of our discussion comparing BW inkjet to darkroom printing one 
difference that's overlooked is that darkroom technology (paper, 
developer, lenses, etc) is supported by large stable corporations 
and if one guy gets run over by a bus or just quits, the technology 
you've been depending on doesn't just stop. 

Will BW inkjet printing EVER be supported by normal, stable, 
profitable businesses that we can count on to be around and act like 
real businesses for years and years on end?   Or are we always going 
to be one bus accident away from our favorite RIP/driver/ink 
disappearing forever?

I work on the east coast of the US near major metropolitan centers. There is
one company, in another state, over 3 hours drive that has qualified
technicians that will repair the processing machines in our darkroom. The
cost of our annual service contract is $6000 for two processors.

Adobe once made a RIP (color only) for desktop printers, no one bought it
(well I did) and they discontinued development. Which big companies are you
hoping will come to the rescue? I don't think Epson, Canon or HP believes
they are missing out on any market share that is worth their while (and I am
sure that they are pleased with their abilities to make BW prints.)

I print with a large format Epson printer and IP on a regular basis, the
results (which are different from darkroom prints, but that doesn't worry me
since I not trying pretend that my inkjet prints are analog silver prints)
are as reliable as working in the darkroom. Neither is easy to do well.

For all the difficulties, I happy to have companies like Cone, Colorbyte,
MIS, Lyson, and Sundance--if they don't make these products, nobody would.

Wendel

> 
>> We have three wideformat machines in a major museum
>> and archives on which we have been running IP. But it
>> has become such an annoyance we won't be renewing
>> our service contract and are going to different options
>> where we can. 
> 
> This raises a good point.    It's one thing for those of us who are
> printing as a hobby or for small one-man photography businesses to
> glom onto whatever Mac or linux freeware or shareware we can find,
> or buy products from tiny two-guys-in-a-basement RIP makers or
> quadtone ink makers.
> 
> But if you have a real business or institution like a museum at
> stake it would be good to deal with something more substantive.  In
> all of our discussion comparing BW inkjet to darkroom printing one
> difference that's overlooked is that darkroom technology (paper,
> developer, lenses, etc) is supported by large stable corporations
> and if one guy gets run over by a bus or just quits, the technology
> you've been depending on doesn't just stop.
> 
> Will BW inkjet printing EVER be supported by normal, stable,
> profitable businesses that we can count on to be around and act like
> real businesses for years and years on end?   Or are we always going
> to be one bus accident away from our favorite RIP/driver/ink
> disappearing forever?

I wouldn't view that solution as being less agrivation, providing better results, cheaper, etc., then putting up with whatever it is about IP you may think is clunky.  As you are probably aware, there are major fine art producers running IP, even though those same options are opent to them.  
 
I view all of this are the choice between IP and the 'science fair' approach.  I believe that any shop producing fine prints in volume, and for profit can ill afford the science fair approach.
 
Tom Baker

mark_gatehouse <mark_gatehouse@...> wrote:

> Don't buy it then. 

Well, if we had known this 18 months or so ago we wouldn't have...

We have three wideformat machines in a major museum and archives on 
which we have been running IP. But it has become such an annoyance we 
won't be renewing our service contract and are going to different 
options where we can. Quadtones/Septones on one along with greytag 
Macbeth profiling for the colour work.

Of course we can still run the IP, but it will now be for secondary 
use most of the time now.

mark.




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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wendel  -
 
I suspect that, in spite of what we hear from some quarters, the majority of the people involved in this work share your opinion.  It certainly seems that a more constructive approach to the challenges and bugs in current software/hardware offerings is to share this information (in a professional form) with the hardware/software vendors.  Paul Roark approachs his part of this process in a very professional way.  That probably goes a long way toward helping with problems, as well as new products from MIS.  
 
It's hard to imagine any verndor having a positive response to someone that rants and raves, and complains about their products bing a 'ripoff'.  That probably gets one shut out pretty quickly.  As a software devloper, I know that is my response.  
 
Tom Baker

Wendel White <wendel@...> wrote:
I work on the east coast of the US near major metropolitan centers. There is
one company, in another state, over 3 hours drive that has qualified
technicians that will repair the processing machines in our darkroom. The
cost of our annual service contract is $6000 for two processors.

Adobe once made a RIP (color only) for desktop printers, no one bought it
(well I did) and they discontinued development. Which big companies are you
hoping will come to the rescue? I don't think Epson, Canon or HP believes
they are missing out on any market share that is worth their while (and I am
sure that they are pleased with their abilities to make BW prints.)

I print with a large format Epson printer and IP on a regular basis, the
results (which are different from darkroom prints, but that doesn't worry me
since I not trying pretend that my inkjet prints are analog silver prints)
are as reliable as working in the darkroom. Neither is easy to do well.

For all the difficulties, I happy to have companies like Cone, Colorbyte,
MIS, Lyson, and Sundance--if they don't make these products, nobody would.

Wendel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
snip
>...As you are probably aware, there are major fine art producers
running IP, even though those same options are opent to them.  
>  
> I view all of this are the choice between IP and the 'science fair'
approach.  I believe that any shop producing fine prints in volume,
and for profit can ill afford the science fair approach.

Tom, you have found a solution that you are happy with, and presumably
now beyond the science fair and down to the real task of consistently
making prints. I can respect that, as well as your enthusiasm for IP
which has made that possible for you.
I would only point out that there are many respected print shops
throughout the country making beautiful digital fine art B&W prints,
using tools and processes other than IP, many from viable companies
with successful histories. Their endeavors and results can hardly be
characterized as science fairs.
There is no single best solution.
Tyler

Tyler  -
 
Sure.  I don't believe I said that all good production shops use only IP.  And, of course, the results aren't science fair'ish.  But, many of the processes still are.  And, many people work quite well in that environment.  I still take things apart, change 'em, put 'em back together, etc., in hopes of getting something better than I started with.  But, I don't complain to/insult the maker of the product in the process.  That's my real issue here.  People constantly badmouthing Epson, IP, ...., instead of trying to engage the vendors in a meaningful dialogue.  (Granted, that's sometimes easier said than done.)
 
Tom Baker

Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
wrote:
snip
>...As you are probably aware, there are major fine art producers
running IP, even though those same options are opent to them. 
> 
> I view all of this are the choice between IP and the 'science fair'
approach. I believe that any shop producing fine prints in volume,
and for profit can ill afford the science fair approach.

Tom, you have found a solution that you are happy with, and presumably
now beyond the science fair and down to the real task of consistently
making prints. I can respect that, as well as your enthusiasm for IP
which has made that possible for you.
I would only point out that there are many respected print shops
throughout the country making beautiful digital fine art B&W prints,
using tools and processes other than IP, many from viable companies
with successful histories. Their endeavors and results can hardly be
characterized as science fairs.
There is no single best solution.
Tyler




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>That's my real issue here.  People constantly badmouthing Epson, 
>IP, ...., instead of trying to engage the vendors in a meaningful 
>dialogue.  (Granted, that's sometimes easier said than done.)

As my old Sergeant Major used to say "assumptions are the mother of 
all f**k ups" - you seem to enjoy making an awful lot of assumptions. 
One being that this route hasn't already been taken.

Example (from many many disucssions with IP) - are you going to try 
and do anything in IP6 about the noticable dither and dot pattern in 
the light tones in greyscale images?

IP's reply - after acknowleding yes there is such a problem - "no - 
we are working on adding other (based in prior conversations, 
read "more sexy") features".

it's the same when you bring up issues of excessive bronzing on most 
glossy papers (which, okay, may actually be impossible to remove in 
greyscale images with UT inks...) - but there isn't even interest in 
discussing it as a problem.

Mark

If you ran a business targeting a particular market segment and the feedback
from customers in that market segment was that your product was a rip-off
then I assure you you would listen or go out of business.  The point with IP
is that they are making money selling a clumsy product (if they are not
making money then they won¹t be making the product for very long).  The fact
that enough people perceive a need for, have few alternatives to or simply
believe the hype surrounding their product and purchase it keeps them in
business.  That does not in any way, however, mean that there will not be
very diverse views as to its quality.

I suspect the ³market opportunity² that IP addresses is really very small as
it does not seem to attract much in the way of competition.  Or perhaps they
are simply a quirky competitor in the hardware calibration segment ­ eg, buy
IP vs Gretag Eye-One.   My bet is that they certainly do not see the
mainstay of their business as the small B&W market segment.

From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] When BW printing will stop being Amateur Hour?
 
It's hard to imagine any verndor having a positive response to someone that
rants and raves, and complains about their products bing a 'ripoff'.  That
probably gets one shut out pretty quickly.  As a software devloper, I know
that is my response.
 
Tom Baker




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"... My bet is that they certainly do not see the
mainstay of their business as the small B&W market segment...."

That's certainly true.  As far as I know they don't make a b&w only product.  A b&w IP version probably wouldn't make any business sense.  However, It would be interesting to find out how much people would 'willingly' pay for a stripped down, b&w only version.

 

Tom Baker

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wrote to colorbyte last week and requested they consider a B&W only 
version.  No response (yet).

There's really no concrete way of knowing how many people would be 
interested in a B&W-only version.  But, as Epson's canned color 
profiles get better and better (witness the R800 and the 4000), the 
other primary benefit of IP for me -- the library of color profiles --
 begins to wane in importance.  (In fact, I was never really blown 
away by the difference between IP's color profiles and Epson's on the 
2200 -- there was a difference, but not nearly as significant as for 
B&W.).  Given that, the price of IP is a LOT to pay for IP's B&W 
ability.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> 
> "... My bet is that they certainly do not see the
> mainstay of their business as the small B&W market segment...."
> 
> That's certainly true.  As far as I know they don't make a b&w only 
product.  A b&w IP version probably wouldn't make any business 
sense.  However, It would be interesting to find out how much people 
would 'willingly' pay for a stripped down, b&w only version.

> 
>  
> 
> Tom Baker
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I suspect it is not possible, that is their B&W capability (neutral, tinting
etc) is a mere side effect of a good colour driver.  I guess it could be
constrained somehow (as opposed to stripped down) but then that¹s extra
development dollars.  Mac users don¹t really need it.  And for PC users I
suspect its price is better spent on another printer with dedicated inks eg
UT7 using the Epson driver thanks to Mr Roark.  (BTW, in the UK it costs
more than another 2100.)  I tested it for my colour work (2100) but could
not see that it made any improvement on a well-calibrated printer.  If I
bought a professional-grade printer I would expect the Epson driver to be
even better (and better supported).  To be frank, I am puzzled as to how IP
survives given their lifeblood must be professional (wide-format) colour
printing.  But then that is not a topic for this forum.  :-)

From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>

That's certainly true.  As far as I know they don't make a b&w only product.
A b&w IP version probably wouldn't make any business sense.  However, It
would be interesting to find out how much people would 'willingly' pay for a
stripped down, b&w only version.

 

Tom Baker

 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]