Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Digital Negatives

Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Chris Hargens

I'm thinking again about trying to print my BW stuff using digital 
negatives rather than paper. I figure that this way -- using a 2200 
with color ultrachromes loaded --I can get the look I want (air-dried 
fiber) and avoid most of the problems (changing color to BW inks, 
clogs, occasional posterization and flatness in midtones) that come 
with dedicated BW inksets. As I mentioned in a previous post, I like 
the BO look on matte paper, but I find that with certain kinds of 
photos the dots become distracting. Anyway, I'd be interested in 
hearing about how difficult the whole digital negative procedure is --
Although I've done a fair amount of darkroom work, I'm not quite sure 
about how much trial and error is involved in getting from an 
acceptable scanned negative & PS file, to a digital negative, and 
then to the final print. Any advice or shared experience would be 
appreciated. 

Chris Hargens

Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Randy Rancier

You might want to check out Dan Burkholders web site 
http://www.danburkholder.com/ he has a book "Making Digital 
Negatives for Contact Prints.  He does mostly platinum prints, but 
there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to creat negs that would 
work for silver prints as well.  You would definately want to make 
your negs big enough for contact printing, for reasons I belive that 
are obvious.  I haven't made any digital negs yet but I plan to in 
the future.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens" 
<chargens@s...> wrote:
> I'm thinking again about trying to print my BW stuff using digital 
> negatives rather than paper. I figure that this way -- using a 
2200 
> with color ultrachromes loaded --I can get the look I want (air-
dried 
> fiber) and avoid most of the problems (changing color to BW inks, 
> clogs, occasional posterization and flatness in midtones) that 
come 
> with dedicated BW inksets. As I mentioned in a previous post, I 
like 
> the BO look on matte paper, but I find that with certain kinds of 
> photos the dots become distracting. Anyway, I'd be interested in 
> hearing about how difficult the whole digital negative procedure 
is --
> Although I've done a fair amount of darkroom work, I'm not quite 
sure
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> about how much trial and error is involved in getting from an 
> acceptable scanned negative & PS file, to a digital negative, and 
> then to the final print. Any advice or shared experience would be 
> appreciated. 
> 
> Chris Hargens

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Charlie Dennis

Chris,

Yes the book is one of the best I have ever read and used. Making Digital
negs for printing is a way that will open up your eyes to a great
alternative to the traditional way of doing fine prints. I have used this
method making 16x20 prints with outstanding results. The curves he uses for
producing silver prints are right on in my book. I used a large format image
setter to produce my negs and then used a home made contact frame in my
darkroom to produce the silver prints. Once you have a properly digitized
and corrected file the neg you make requires nothing else to make your
prints consistent with the same information in them time and again. You
should go to the LensWork web site and buy some of the sample prints they
make this way and judge for your self. They are cheap and quite stunning.
All their prints that are sold there by the artist are produced in this way.
That is except for the gravures.

I come from a graphic arts and commercial printing background and understand
the process that is used and have produced prints like this for close to 30
years. Putting a silver print made in the traditional way in the darkroom
next to one of my image setter prints can not be told which is which. Our
job at the plants was to create negs to be used in the printing process that
were as good or better than the original for reproduction printing. We
printed on press images by Adams, Weston, and Edward Curtis to mention a
few.

The big nut for me to crack now that I have sold the Scitex image setter is
paying the $100.00 for a negative from a service bureau, and in some places
finding a service bureau that still outputs film. Most large commercial
printers can still output film and can proof your neg on white print
material that will give you a good indication of what you will get on silver
print materials in your darkroom.

If you add all the costs up between to two ways and account for time and
attach a dollar value to it, you will be using the digital negative to make
your prints.

Charlie Dennis
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Randy Rancier [mailto:rrancier@...]
  Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 12:27 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives


  You might want to check out Dan Burkholders web site
  http://www.danburkholder.com/ he has a book "Making Digital
  Negatives for Contact Prints.  He does mostly platinum prints, but
  there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to creat negs that would
  work for silver prints as well.  You would definately want to make
  your negs big enough for contact printing, for reasons I belive that
  are obvious.  I haven't made any digital negs yet but I plan to in
  the future.

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens"
  <chargens@s...> wrote:
  > I'm thinking again about trying to print my BW stuff using digital
  > negatives rather than paper. I figure that this way -- using a
  2200
  > with color ultrachromes loaded --I can get the look I want (air-
  dried
  > fiber) and avoid most of the problems (changing color to BW inks,
  > clogs, occasional posterization and flatness in midtones) that
  come
  > with dedicated BW inksets. As I mentioned in a previous post, I
  like
  > the BO look on matte paper, but I find that with certain kinds of
  > photos the dots become distracting. Anyway, I'd be interested in
  > hearing about how difficult the whole digital negative procedure
  is --
  > Although I've done a fair amount of darkroom work, I'm not quite
  sure
  > about how much trial and error is involved in getting from an
  > acceptable scanned negative & PS file, to a digital negative, and
  > then to the final print. Any advice or shared experience would be
  > appreciated.
  >
  > Chris Hargens



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/

    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Chris Hargens

Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital 
negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to 
Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best negs 
on the desktop yet." I've read that for silver printing, as opposed 
to platinum, imagesetter negatives are superior to those from inkjet 
printers, but I haven't heard anything to suggest that inkjet 
negatives noticeably lower in quality.

Chris Hargens

Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens" 
<chargens@s...> wrote:
> Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital 
> negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to 
> Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best 
negs 
> on the desktop yet." 

I just recently tried the same image on both my 7600 and my 1280, 
and I must respectfully disagree with Dan-He's doing platinum, so 
he's relying on the limited resolution of the hand-coated paper to 
hide the printer artifacts. There's something about the dither 
pattern  on the 7600/2200 that makes it look like it has much bigger 
dots than it does. The 1280 neg was far smoother and closer to 
dotless. Which is not to say that either one will yield a neg that's 
smooth enough for silver paper, I've yet to prove that to myself.

The material I'm printing on is the Pictorico OHC film, which takes 
the Ultrachromes much better than I expected. However, it tends to 
show dots, dither patterns, and other printer artifacts (like micro-
banding) much more than a normal print would. I understand that 
Pictorico's synthetic high gloss material does better, but it is 
also quite expensive, and I haven't yet yet tried it.

Steve Karafyllakis

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Charlie Dennis

Chris,

Just a few things you should consider when making your negs for prints in
the way that you want, on your printer.

Sorry these are so long.

1. any problems that you have making ink prints on your printer will also
hold true for making a neg off the same device. It will be no better than
the prints you make. Anything that can and does happen to your prints will
happen to the negative plus the time you will spend in the darkroom finding
out if the negative is any good.

2. Making a negative in a printer is an additive process to a substrate. It
is not an exposure process to a coated material and then applying a
subtractive process that is both chemical and physical.

3. The image on the negative produced by the image setter is controlled by a
high end laser that is calibrated and tested every day for accuracy and
consistency

4. The dots or random spot of the image setter can be much finer in its
resolution than anything that a printer will be capable of producing. The
spot it produces can be the equivalent of a 600 line per inch screen value.
That is a spot smaller than the size of the silver crystals in the film you
use in your camera.

5. Control and consistency on the negative is a standard operating procedure
of the process when the image bureau creates a film that is readable with a
target chart and densiotometer.

6. There will be no blocking of values at either end of the scale of the
image setter neg. It will have more information than your printing paper
will be able to record.

7. You will be less at the mercy of inconsistent neg. because of density
problems and clogged heads of a print device with an image setter.

8. If you inkjet prints are lacking in the snap that you want, then the
negative you create on it will more than likely lack something also. The
fact that you are printing to a silver print paper will not solve all that
you are looking for in the print. If the print is flat the negative will
also be flat produced in the same way.

I for one have never been a fan of any additive process. It has never proven
to be as consistent and accurate as a subtractive system in reproduction. In
the graphic arts industry, system after system of additive processes has
been dropped or revised always in favor of the easier to control subtractive
and exposure systems.

I am not saying the negative from a printer will not work or will not be
usable, but it will depend on the investment of your time and testing you
put into it. The shorter way will be the image setter if you are a
perfectionist for technical detail.

I would be pleased to see how your efforts turn out. If you have a
densitometer to read both reflective and transmission values of the print
and negatives you will make your life a lot easier when making adjustments
to your finished work.
  Charlie Dennis
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   -----Original Message-----
  From: Chris Hargens [mailto:chargens@...]
  Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 10:06 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives


  Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital
  negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to
  Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best negs
  on the desktop yet." I've read that for silver printing, as opposed
  to platinum, imagesetter negatives are superior to those from inkjet
  printers, but I haven't heard anything to suggest that inkjet
  negatives noticeably lower in quality.

  Chris Hargens



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/

    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Chris Hargens

Thanks, Steve, for the info -- even if it is rather discouraging. If 
I try making some digital negatives I'll be use Pictorico's Photo 
Gallery High Gloss white film.  Burkholder has made his 2200 silver 
for this film. Is this the one you had in mind? See ---
http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/misc_pages/inkjetneg.htm

Chris Hargens
 

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
Hargens" 
> <chargens@s...> wrote:
> > Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital 
> > negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to 
> > Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best 
> negs 
> > on the desktop yet." 
> 
> I just recently tried the same image on both my 7600 and my 1280, 
> and I must respectfully disagree with Dan-He's doing platinum, so 
> he's relying on the limited resolution of the hand-coated paper to 
> hide the printer artifacts. There's something about the dither 
> pattern  on the 7600/2200 that makes it look like it has much 
bigger 
> dots than it does. The 1280 neg was far smoother and closer to 
> dotless. Which is not to say that either one will yield a neg 
that's
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> smooth enough for silver paper, I've yet to prove that to myself.
> 
> The material I'm printing on is the Pictorico OHC film, which takes 
> the Ultrachromes much better than I expected. However, it tends to 
> show dots, dither patterns, and other printer artifacts (like micro-
> banding) much more than a normal print would. I understand that 
> Pictorico's synthetic high gloss material does better, but it is 
> also quite expensive, and I haven't yet yet tried it.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
Hargens" 
> <chargens@s...> wrote:
> > Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital 
> > negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to 
> > Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best 
> negs 
> > on the desktop yet." 
> 
> I just recently tried the same image on both my 7600 and my 1280, 
> and I must respectfully disagree with Dan-He's doing platinum, so 
> he's relying on the limited resolution of the hand-coated paper to 
> hide the printer artifacts. There's something about the dither 
> pattern  on the 7600/2200 that makes it look like it has much 
bigger 
> dots than it does. The 1280 neg was far smoother and closer to 
> dotless. Which is not to say that either one will yield a neg 
that's
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> smooth enough for silver paper, I've yet to prove that to myself.
> 
> The material I'm printing on is the Pictorico OHC film, which takes 
> the Ultrachromes much better than I expected. However, it tends to 
> show dots, dither patterns, and other printer artifacts (like micro-
> banding) much more than a normal print would. I understand that 
> Pictorico's synthetic high gloss material does better, but it is 
> also quite expensive, and I haven't yet yet tried it.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

[Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-30 by Chris Hargens

Thanks, Charlie, for all the information. I agree with all the points 
you've made as well as the theory behind them. As for the prints I've 
been making with various quadtone sets on matte paper so far, I'm 
reasonably happy with some and unhappy with others. I like the look 
of the Ultrachromes when printing BW, but I don't like the problem 
with metamerism (as well as the slight bronzing when printing on 
glossy papers). 

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Dennis" 
<scprints@b...> wrote:
> Chris,
> 
> Just a few things you should consider when making your negs for 
prints in
> the way that you want, on your printer.
> 
> Sorry these are so long.
> 
> 1. any problems that you have making ink prints on your printer 
will also
> hold true for making a neg off the same device. It will be no 
better than
> the prints you make. Anything that can and does happen to your 
prints will
> happen to the negative plus the time you will spend in the darkroom 
finding
> out if the negative is any good.
> 
> 2. Making a negative in a printer is an additive process to a 
substrate. It
> is not an exposure process to a coated material and then applying a
> subtractive process that is both chemical and physical.
> 
> 3. The image on the negative produced by the image setter is 
controlled by a
> high end laser that is calibrated and tested every day for accuracy 
and
> consistency
> 
> 4. The dots or random spot of the image setter can be much finer in 
its
> resolution than anything that a printer will be capable of 
producing. The
> spot it produces can be the equivalent of a 600 line per inch 
screen value.
> That is a spot smaller than the size of the silver crystals in the 
film you
> use in your camera.
> 
> 5. Control and consistency on the negative is a standard operating 
procedure
> of the process when the image bureau creates a film that is 
readable with a
> target chart and densiotometer.
> 
> 6. There will be no blocking of values at either end of the scale 
of the
> image setter neg. It will have more information than your printing 
paper
> will be able to record.
> 
> 7. You will be less at the mercy of inconsistent neg. because of 
density
> problems and clogged heads of a print device with an image setter.
> 
> 8. If you inkjet prints are lacking in the snap that you want, then 
the
> negative you create on it will more than likely lack something 
also. The
> fact that you are printing to a silver print paper will not solve 
all that
> you are looking for in the print. If the print is flat the negative 
will
> also be flat produced in the same way.
> 
> I for one have never been a fan of any additive process. It has 
never proven
> to be as consistent and accurate as a subtractive system in 
reproduction. In
> the graphic arts industry, system after system of additive 
processes has
> been dropped or revised always in favor of the easier to control 
subtractive
> and exposure systems.
> 
> I am not saying the negative from a printer will not work or will 
not be
> usable, but it will depend on the investment of your time and 
testing you
> put into it. The shorter way will be the image setter if you are a
> perfectionist for technical detail.
> 
> I would be pleased to see how your efforts turn out. If you have a
> densitometer to read both reflective and transmission values of the 
print
> and negatives you will make your life a lot easier when making 
adjustments
> to your finished work.
>   Charlie Dennis
>    -----Original Message-----
>   From: Chris Hargens [mailto:chargens@s...]
>   Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 10:06 AM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives
> 
> 
>   Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital
>   negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to
>   Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best 
negs
>   on the desktop yet." I've read that for silver printing, as 
opposed
>   to platinum, imagesetter negatives are superior to those from 
inkjet
>   printers, but I haven't heard anything to suggest that inkjet
>   negatives noticeably lower in quality.
> 
>   Chris Hargens
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> --
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> 
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-31 by James M. Bleifus

Hi Chris,

I've been making digital negatives on my 2200 for several months now 
and don't ever plan on returning to imagesetter negs.  I use the 
Pictorico White Film and the settings recommended in Dan Burkholder's  
Inkjet Negative Companion.  I had to modify his curve slightly, but it 
works great.

I know some people have reported a dithering issue but I don't have 
that problem.  From time to time I do have a problem with clogged heads 
which I was finding hard to identify before going into the darkroom.  
Finally I started taking the negs outside in the sun and now can easily 
see flaws.

I'm sure that image setter negs are sharper but I consider the 2200 
negs sharp enough.  I was at a conference last month where most of the 
participants were large format folks (including a well known 8 X 20 
shooter) and everyone assumed I was shooting LF because of the detail 
in the print (though I couldn't compare to the 8 X 10 and larger 
cameras).  I shoot with a Digital Rebel.  If my 2200 hadn't been sharp 
enough, I never would have been able to have my prints next to these LF 
guys.  My advice, though, is to try it both ways.  Have an image setter 
neg made and make a neg on your 2200 and see what the differences are.

Cheers,

James

-- 
http://bleifus.com
We need wilderness whether or not we ever set foot in it.  We need a 
refuge even though we may never need to go there - Edward Abbey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-31 by Susan Dennis

Chris,

My favorite way to print is to use 100% cotton content bond paper, like a
Strathmore bond in 24# weight. You have to watch how much ink you are
putting down but you get a very fine delicate print. It is more like a
gravure. Like the ones that Edward Curtis made in the early part of this
century on fine Japanese tissue paper and the vellums. They were all hand
pulled and very fine. I have collected originals of his over the years.
Printing with the Epson 3000 and the quad ink set comes the closest to those
fine prints I have been able to produce. I differ in that I am using neutral
tone inks B&W and not his red sepia tones. That color does not work for my
material. Fine printing is just that, fine printing and there are many ways
to achieve a desired result. The accepted pattern of workflow methods and
materials is not the only way to achieve an artist goal.  These cotton bonds
do not have the chemical coatings of the offset sheets that make the blacks
soft and gray in the shadow areas. Coated commercial printing papers do not
work at all with inkjet inks. But there are a few commercial matte coated
papers that do take the ink properly and come in a variety of weights. They
are considerably cheaper and readily available through paper merchants. At
the very least they are a good way to proof images with out wasting the
expensive papers. If you are talking glossy finish, that is another ball
game. Only papers made specifically for ink-jet printers will do.

Charlie Dennis
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Chris Hargens [mailto:chargens@sbcglobal.net]
  Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 7:10 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives


  Thanks, Charlie, for all the information. I agree with all the points
  you've made as well as the theory behind them. As for the prints I've
  been making with various quadtone sets on matte paper so far, I'm
  reasonably happy with some and unhappy with others. I like the look
  of the Ultrachromes when printing BW, but I don't like the problem
  with metamerism (as well as the slight bronzing when printing on
  glossy papers).

  Chris Hargens

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Dennis"
  <scprints@b...> wrote:
  > Chris,
  >
  > Just a few things you should consider when making your negs for
  prints in
  > the way that you want, on your printer.
  >
  > Sorry these are so long.
  >
  > 1. any problems that you have making ink prints on your printer
  will also
  > hold true for making a neg off the same device. It will be no
  better than
  > the prints you make. Anything that can and does happen to your
  prints will
  > happen to the negative plus the time you will spend in the darkroom
  finding
  > out if the negative is any good.
  >
  > 2. Making a negative in a printer is an additive process to a
  substrate. It
  > is not an exposure process to a coated material and then applying a
  > subtractive process that is both chemical and physical.
  >
  > 3. The image on the negative produced by the image setter is
  controlled by a
  > high end laser that is calibrated and tested every day for accuracy
  and
  > consistency
  >
  > 4. The dots or random spot of the image setter can be much finer in
  its
  > resolution than anything that a printer will be capable of
  producing. The
  > spot it produces can be the equivalent of a 600 line per inch
  screen value.
  > That is a spot smaller than the size of the silver crystals in the
  film you
  > use in your camera.
  >
  > 5. Control and consistency on the negative is a standard operating
  procedure
  > of the process when the image bureau creates a film that is
  readable with a
  > target chart and densiotometer.
  >
  > 6. There will be no blocking of values at either end of the scale
  of the
  > image setter neg. It will have more information than your printing
  paper
  > will be able to record.
  >
  > 7. You will be less at the mercy of inconsistent neg. because of
  density
  > problems and clogged heads of a print device with an image setter.
  >
  > 8. If you inkjet prints are lacking in the snap that you want, then
  the
  > negative you create on it will more than likely lack something
  also. The
  > fact that you are printing to a silver print paper will not solve
  all that
  > you are looking for in the print. If the print is flat the negative
  will
  > also be flat produced in the same way.
  >
  > I for one have never been a fan of any additive process. It has
  never proven
  > to be as consistent and accurate as a subtractive system in
  reproduction. In
  > the graphic arts industry, system after system of additive
  processes has
  > been dropped or revised always in favor of the easier to control
  subtractive
  > and exposure systems.
  >
  > I am not saying the negative from a printer will not work or will
  not be
  > usable, but it will depend on the investment of your time and
  testing you
  > put into it. The shorter way will be the image setter if you are a
  > perfectionist for technical detail.
  >
  > I would be pleased to see how your efforts turn out. If you have a
  > densitometer to read both reflective and transmission values of the
  print
  > and negatives you will make your life a lot easier when making
  adjustments
  > to your finished work.
  >   Charlie Dennis
  >    -----Original Message-----
  >   From: Chris Hargens [mailto:chargens@s...]
  >   Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 10:06 AM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives
  >
  >
  >   Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital
  >   negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to
  >   Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best
  negs
  >   on the desktop yet." I've read that for silver printing, as
  opposed
  >   to platinum, imagesetter negatives are superior to those from
  inkjet
  >   printers, but I haven't heard anything to suggest that inkjet
  >   negatives noticeably lower in quality.
  >
  >   Chris Hargens
  >
  >
  >
  >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
  resources as
  > they are often being updated.
  >
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
  wish to
  > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
  this same
  > page.
  >
  >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
  messages to keep
  > them short.
  >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  flames.
  > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
  > membership without notice.
  >   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
  digital B&W
  > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
  removed from
  > the membership.
  >   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
  and
  > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
  Owner and
  > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
  section:
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
  >
  >   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW,
  THE PRINT
  > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
  > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
  LIABLE TO YOU
  > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
  EXEMPLARY
  > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
  > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF
  THE  "OWNER" AND
  > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED
  OF THE
  > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
  INABILITY
  > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED
  ACCESS TO OR
  > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
  CONDUCT OF ANY
  > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY
  OTHER
  > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
  >
  >
  >
  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  >               ADVERTISEMENT
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
  --------
  > --
  >   Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
  >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
  >
  >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  >
  >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
  Service.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/

    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-31 by Ken Carney

Chris, I've been this road using both imagesetter and inkjet negs for pt/pd.
I don't think either technique is there yet for silver prints.  Pt/pd has a
much greater tonal range than silver developing-out papers.  If you like
that look (who doesn't) you could save yourself a lot of time and trouble by
just getting an 8x10 field camera and a good lens, developing the neg in
Rollo or whatever that is good for you for pt/pd, and making the real deal.
I suggest, before sinking a lot of time in a given approach, that you find a
way to view some pt/pd or silver contact prints from either in-camera negs
or (darkroom) enlarged negs.  I have made silver prints from enlarged negs,
AZO and other silver contact prints from in-camera negs and pt/pd prints
from in-camera and enlarged negs.  For me, the way to go is inkjet.  I am
more interested in the image than the method of reproduction, and I find
inkjet to be adequate to convey what I want to convey.  But each to his own.
Here are some sites you might want to check out:

www.bostick-sullivan.com
www.tommillea.com
www.davidmichaelkennedy.com

David enlarges his 120 film images to 20x24 negs and prints on double-coated
pure palladium paper...you can jump into the images if you see them in
person.  Tom enlarges 35mm negs to 20x24 and prints platinum.  I've gone
through his master print box and it is superb.  Melody at Bostick-Sullivan
will fix you up with everything you need for contact printing if you want to
go this route.

Good luck and have fun.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Hargens [mailto:chargens@...] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 5:59 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives
> 
> Thanks, Steve, for the info -- even if it is rather 
> discouraging. If I try making some digital negatives I'll be 
> use Pictorico's Photo Gallery High Gloss white film.  
> Burkholder has made his 2200 silver for this film. Is this 
> the one you had in mind? See --- 
> http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/misc_pages/inkjetneg.htm
> 
> Chris Hargens
>  
> 
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris
> Hargens" 
> > <chargens@s...> wrote:
> > > Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital 
> > > negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to 
> > > Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best
> > negs
> > > on the desktop yet." 
> > 
> > I just recently tried the same image on both my 7600 and my 
> 1280, and 
> > I must respectfully disagree with Dan-He's doing platinum, so he's 
> > relying on the limited resolution of the hand-coated paper 
> to hide the 
> > printer artifacts. There's something about the dither 
> pattern  on the 
> > 7600/2200 that makes it look like it has much
> bigger 
> > dots than it does. The 1280 neg was far smoother and closer to 
> > dotless. Which is not to say that either one will yield a neg
> that's 
> > smooth enough for silver paper, I've yet to prove that to myself.
> > 
> > The material I'm printing on is the Pictorico OHC film, which takes 
> > the Ultrachromes much better than I expected. However, it tends to 
> > show dots, dither patterns, and other printer artifacts (like micro-
> > banding) much more than a normal print would. I understand that 
> > Pictorico's synthetic high gloss material does better, but 
> it is also 
> > quite expensive, and I haven't yet yet tried it.
> > 
> > Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for 
> only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------~-> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
> you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
> preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
> removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
> posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
> rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
> decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group 
> Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE 
> THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
> INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN 
> IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives

2004-05-31 by Ken Carney

Charlie, could you please be a little more specific about the coated papers
you mention?  I have a fair stock of Cranes #32 pound kid finish.  My only
printer currently is an Epson 2200, where you can vary the ink load.   I
have thought about gravures, but then you have to make a plate.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Susan Dennis [mailto:scprints@...] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 8:54 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives
> 
> Chris,
> 
> My favorite way to print is to use 100% cotton content bond 
> paper, like a Strathmore bond in 24# weight. You have to 
> watch how much ink you are putting down but you get a very 
> fine delicate print. It is more like a gravure. Like the ones 
> that Edward Curtis made in the early part of this century on 
> fine Japanese tissue paper and the vellums. They were all 
> hand pulled and very fine. I have collected originals of his 
> over the years.
> Printing with the Epson 3000 and the quad ink set comes the 
> closest to those fine prints I have been able to produce. I 
> differ in that I am using neutral tone inks B&W and not his 
> red sepia tones. That color does not work for my material. 
> Fine printing is just that, fine printing and there are many 
> ways to achieve a desired result. The accepted pattern of 
> workflow methods and materials is not the only way to achieve 
> an artist goal.  These cotton bonds do not have the chemical 
> coatings of the offset sheets that make the blacks soft and 
> gray in the shadow areas. Coated commercial printing papers 
> do not work at all with inkjet inks. But there are a few 
> commercial matte coated papers that do take the ink properly 
> and come in a variety of weights. They are considerably 
> cheaper and readily available through paper merchants. At the 
> very least they are a good way to proof images with out 
> wasting the expensive papers. If you are talking glossy 
> finish, that is another ball game. Only papers made 
> specifically for ink-jet printers will do.
> 
> Charlie Dennis
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Chris Hargens [mailto:chargens@...]
>   Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 7:10 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives
> 
> 
>   Thanks, Charlie, for all the information. I agree with all 
> the points
>   you've made as well as the theory behind them. As for the 
> prints I've
>   been making with various quadtone sets on matte paper so far, I'm
>   reasonably happy with some and unhappy with others. I like the look
>   of the Ultrachromes when printing BW, but I don't like the problem
>   with metamerism (as well as the slight bronzing when printing on
>   glossy papers).
> 
>   Chris Hargens
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
> "Charlie Dennis"
>   <scprints@b...> wrote:
>   > Chris,
>   >
>   > Just a few things you should consider when making your negs for
>   prints in
>   > the way that you want, on your printer.
>   >
>   > Sorry these are so long.
>   >
>   > 1. any problems that you have making ink prints on your printer
>   will also
>   > hold true for making a neg off the same device. It will be no
>   better than
>   > the prints you make. Anything that can and does happen to your
>   prints will
>   > happen to the negative plus the time you will spend in 
> the darkroom
>   finding
>   > out if the negative is any good.
>   >
>   > 2. Making a negative in a printer is an additive process to a
>   substrate. It
>   > is not an exposure process to a coated material and then 
> applying a
>   > subtractive process that is both chemical and physical.
>   >
>   > 3. The image on the negative produced by the image setter is
>   controlled by a
>   > high end laser that is calibrated and tested every day 
> for accuracy
>   and
>   > consistency
>   >
>   > 4. The dots or random spot of the image setter can be 
> much finer in
>   its
>   > resolution than anything that a printer will be capable of
>   producing. The
>   > spot it produces can be the equivalent of a 600 line per inch
>   screen value.
>   > That is a spot smaller than the size of the silver crystals in the
>   film you
>   > use in your camera.
>   >
>   > 5. Control and consistency on the negative is a standard operating
>   procedure
>   > of the process when the image bureau creates a film that is
>   readable with a
>   > target chart and densiotometer.
>   >
>   > 6. There will be no blocking of values at either end of the scale
>   of the
>   > image setter neg. It will have more information than your printing
>   paper
>   > will be able to record.
>   >
>   > 7. You will be less at the mercy of inconsistent neg. because of
>   density
>   > problems and clogged heads of a print device with an image setter.
>   >
>   > 8. If you inkjet prints are lacking in the snap that you 
> want, then
>   the
>   > negative you create on it will more than likely lack something
>   also. The
>   > fact that you are printing to a silver print paper will not solve
>   all that
>   > you are looking for in the print. If the print is flat 
> the negative
>   will
>   > also be flat produced in the same way.
>   >
>   > I for one have never been a fan of any additive process. It has
>   never proven
>   > to be as consistent and accurate as a subtractive system in
>   reproduction. In
>   > the graphic arts industry, system after system of additive
>   processes has
>   > been dropped or revised always in favor of the easier to control
>   subtractive
>   > and exposure systems.
>   >
>   > I am not saying the negative from a printer will not work or will
>   not be
>   > usable, but it will depend on the investment of your time and
>   testing you
>   > put into it. The shorter way will be the image setter if you are a
>   > perfectionist for technical detail.
>   >
>   > I would be pleased to see how your efforts turn out. If you have a
>   > densitometer to read both reflective and transmission 
> values of the
>   print
>   > and negatives you will make your life a lot easier when making
>   adjustments
>   > to your finished work.
>   >   Charlie Dennis
>   >    -----Original Message-----
>   >   From: Chris Hargens [mailto:chargens@s...]
>   >   Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 10:06 AM
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives
>   >
>   >
>   >   Thanks, Randy and Charles, for your advice. If I go the digital
>   >   negative route, I'll be using my 2200 to make them. According to
>   >   Burkholder the 2200, along with the 7600/9600, "gives the best
>   negs
>   >   on the desktop yet." I've read that for silver printing, as
>   opposed
>   >   to platinum, imagesetter negatives are superior to those from
>   inkjet
>   >   printers, but I haven't heard anything to suggest that inkjet
>   >   negatives noticeably lower in quality.
>   >
>   >   Chris Hargens
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>   resources as
>   > they are often being updated.
>   >
>   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
>   wish to
>   > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>   this same
>   > page.
>   >
>   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
>   messages to keep
>   > them short.
>   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>   flames.
>   > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>   > membership without notice.
>   >   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
>   digital B&W
>   > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>   removed from
>   > the membership.
>   >   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
>   and
>   > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>   Owner and
>   > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
>   section:
>   >   
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>   >
>   >   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW,
>   THE PRINT
>   > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
> "OWNER" AND
>   > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
>   LIABLE TO YOU
>   > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>   EXEMPLARY
>   > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
> OF PROFITS,
>   > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF
>   THE  "OWNER" AND
>   > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
> BEEN ADVISED
>   OF THE
>   > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
>   INABILITY
>   > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED
>   ACCESS TO OR
>   > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
>   CONDUCT OF ANY
>   > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY
>   OTHER
>   > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   >               ADVERTISEMENT
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>   --------
>   > --
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>   >
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   >
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
> Yahoo! Terms of
>   Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and 
> other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
> you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
> preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to keep them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal 
> attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
> from the membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
> posts may be removed from the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
> rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
> decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group 
> Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE 
> THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
> INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN 
> IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> --
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> 
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 
> Terms of Service.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for 
> only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------~-> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
> you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
> preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
> removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
> posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
> rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
> decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group 
> Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE 
> THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
> INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN 
> IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
>

Digital Negatives

2009-08-28 by peter_desmidt

Has anyone here made digital negatives?  I'm going to try my hand at carbon transfer printing.  See: http://www.alternativephotography.com/articles/art110.html if interested.  Since it's a contact process, I'm going to try making digital negatives, as per Ron Reeder.  See: http://www.ronreeder.com/page8117.html if interested.

Currently, I use an R2400 with MIS K4 inks, although with QTR I do occasionally get banding issues.

Would an Epson 1400 with it's smaller drop size be a better choice?  Anyone have info on the UV blocking abilities of the various inks? So far, I've heard that MIS inks block significantly less UV than Epson's K3 inks.

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Negatives

2009-08-28 by ann clancy

i have , however , i used Mark Nelson't program and an epson 1280.
you might try hybridphoto.com which is very serious site for hybrid users and in fact i think there has been a very serious thread recenlty on carbon printing.
 
ann

--- On Fri, 8/28/09, peter_desmidt <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: peter_desmidt <pdesmidt@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] Digital Negatives
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 9:41 AM


  



Has anyone here made digital negatives? I'm going to try my hand at carbon transfer printing. See: http://www.alternat ivephotography. com/articles/ art110.html if interested. Since it's a contact process, I'm going to try making digital negatives, as per Ron Reeder. See: http://www.ronreede r.com/page8117. html if interested.

Currently, I use an R2400 with MIS K4 inks, although with QTR I do occasionally get banding issues.

Would an Epson 1400 with it's smaller drop size be a better choice? Anyone have info on the UV blocking abilities of the various inks? So far, I've heard that MIS inks block significantly less UV than Epson's K3 inks.

















      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Digital Negatives

2009-08-28 by Mark Nelson

Yes, quite a few. :)

Mark Nelson

www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com, PDNPrintForum@YahooGroups, www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com 
, sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy

On Aug 28, 2009, at 8:41 AM, "peter_desmidt" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

> Has anyone here made digital negatives? I'm going to try my hand at  
> carbon transfer printing. See: http://www.alternativephotography.com/articles/art110.html 
>  if interested. Since it's a contact process, I'm going to try  
> making digital negatives, as per Ron Reeder. See: http://www.ronreeder.com/page8117.html 
>  if interested.
>
> Currently, I use an R2400 with MIS K4 inks, although with QTR I do  
> occasionally get banding issues.
>
> Would an Epson 1400 with it's smaller drop size be a better choice?  
> Anyone have info on the UV blocking abilities of the various inks?  
> So far, I've heard that MIS inks block significantly less UV than  
> Epson's K3 inks.
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Digital Negatives

2009-08-28 by sinar001

You might look at Dan Burkholder's website--
http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/main_pages/book_info_main_page1.htm

He was an early pioneer of the process for Platinum prints.

John Nollendorfs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "peter_desmidt" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Has anyone here made digital negatives?  I'm going to try my hand at carbon transfer printing.  See: http://www.alternativephotography.com/articles/art110.html if interested.  Since it's a contact process, I'm going to try making digital negatives, as per Ron Reeder.  See: http://www.ronreeder.com/page8117.html if interested.
> 
> Currently, I use an R2400 with MIS K4 inks, although with QTR I do occasionally get banding issues.
> 
> Would an Epson 1400 with it's smaller drop size be a better choice?  Anyone have info on the UV blocking abilities of the various inks? So far, I've heard that MIS inks block significantly less UV than Epson's K3 inks.
>

Re:Digital Negatives

2009-08-29 by Wayne J. Cosshall

HI Peter,

Yup. I also run workshops down under on producing digital negatives.

Basically it is no where as complex as some people, like Dan  
Burkholder's book, suggest.

Dye printers work fine, they block the UV quite well. You want to  
print in color your negs.

The consensus from people I respect down under printing a range of  
alternative processes is that the best films are:
Folex Reprojet P
Agfa Copyjet
with dye or Pictorio with pigment.

Hope that helps,
Wayne

Wayne J. Cosshall
Publisher, Digital ImageMaker for photography, camera and art news,  
reviews and tutorials http://www.dimagemaker.com
Photography, camera, equipment and technique blog http://www.digitalimagemakerworld.com
Personal photography and art site http://www.cosshall.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re:Digital Negatives

2009-08-29 by pdesmidt tds.net

Dye printers work fine, they block the UV quite well. You want to
print in color your negs.

Wayne, what printer are you using?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re:Digital Negatives

2009-08-29 by ender100

Peter,

That's an interesting statement.  I don't believe that Dan's book suggests it is complex.

Could you elaborate?

--
Best Wishes,

Mark Nelson
Precision Digital Negatives
PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups

Mark Nelson Photography


On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:51:07 AM, "Wayne J. Cosshall" <dimi@dimagemaker.net> wrote:

Basically it is no where as complex as some people, like Dan 
Burkholder's book, suggest.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re:Digital Negatives

2009-08-29 by peter_desmidt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, ender100 <Ender100@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
> 
> That's an interesting statement. �I don't believe that Dan's book suggests it is complex.
> 
> Could you elaborate?
> 
> --
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Mark Nelson
>

Hi Mark,

Wayne made that comment.  While I have Dan's book about imagesetter negatives, I've not seen his inkjet update.

Regards,
Peter De Smidt

RE: [Digital BW] Re:Digital Negatives

2009-08-30 by E.Neilsen

For the most up to date information from Dan, I think you'll want to visit
his web site. He saw a few years back that once armed with basic theory, the
end user would need to run their own test. This is in part due to all the
parts of the process, computers, printers, ink sets changing quickly, to
fully explain each change would require doing it only and he does like to
make prints too.

 

 

 

  _____
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
peter_desmidt
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:00 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re:Digital Negatives

 

  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, ender100 <Ender100@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
> 
> That's an interesting statement. �I don't believe that Dan's book
suggests it is complex.
> 
> Could you elaborate?
> 
> --
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Mark Nelson
>

Hi Mark,

Wayne made that comment. While I have Dan's book about imagesetter
negatives, I've not seen his inkjet update.

Regards,
Peter De Smidt





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Digital Negatives

2009-08-31 by Wayne J. Cosshall

I use an Epson 1410 for this. I have one but I mainly use the one my  
friend has who has the studio I do alternative process work at.

My comment about Dan's being a complex approach comes from comments I  
have had from workshop participants who have either read the book or  
done a workshop with him and found it all too complex. I've heard it  
now from enough people to at least feel that some people are confused  
by things.

Cheers,

Wayne

Wayne J. Cosshall
Publisher, Digital ImageMaker for photography, camera and art news,  
reviews and tutorials http://www.dimagemaker.com
Photography, camera, equipment and technique blog http://www.digitalimagemakerworld.com
Personal photography and art site http://www.cosshall.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.