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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing

2004-08-04 by B. Campbell

Thanks for the reply, I'll check out other papers. The problem for me with
printing warm isn't so much that I dislike warm (though for most photographs
I do prefer a more neutral look) as it is that I use MIS VM inks in my other
printer and so am already able to make warm tone prints. I was hoping that
BO would expand my range of possible colors more in the neutral area than in
the warm area.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 10:47 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing


Hello Bellis,

>I've been using Epson Photo Black and Epson Enhanced Matte paper in
>my 2200 for BO printing just to see what BO looked like. I've been
>generally pleased with the results but the prints are on the warm
>side so I replaced the Photo Black with MIS Eboni which everyone
>seems to say is the best black to use for BO. I ran three cleaning
>cycles  and then printed. The prints are still on the warm side and
>don't otherwise look any different than the same prints done with
>Photo Black. Is it possible that three cleaning cycles weren't
enough
>to remove all the Photo Black from the printer?

Three cycles should be enough.


>Apart from that, what am I supposed to be seeing with MIS Eboni
>that makes it preferable to Epson's Photo Black for BO printing?

Several things:  First, on any given matte paper Eboni will be a bit
less warm than Photo Black (PK) or Matte Black (MK, which is also less
warm than PK).  Second, Eboni and MK both have better Dmax than PK (on
Matte paper).  Third, different papers render carbon inks at different
degrees of warm.  With Eboni the tones range from cold, almost pure
black, to warmer than EEM.  Because Eboni is the least warm of the
non-dyed carbon blacks, gets among the highest longevity ratings, and
is cheaper than the Epson inks (and some say is prettier), it has
become the favorite ink for many BO users.

So on EEM, Eboni should still look warm, but not as warm as PK.  As
for other papers, there is an article called "The Great Paper Chase"
at the link below (#5 in the series) which lists several papers and
describes the ink color and other properties using Eboni.  It's
possible to have a selection of several papers that will produce a
range of tones so we can choose one which best suits each image.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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[Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing

2004-08-04 by grethabakker

I'm also printing BO with Eboni. But before that I've used VM inks. 
My experience was that the black of the VM system, gives a more 
neutral tone then Eboni. Because I read that you use VM inks, maybe 
you should give it a try and make a BO print on your other printer.

Regards,  René
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Campbell" 
<bellis60@v...> wrote:
> Thanks for the reply, I'll check out other papers. The problem for 
me with
> printing warm isn't so much that I dislike warm (though for most 
photographs
> I do prefer a more neutral look) as it is that I use MIS VM inks in 
my other
> printer and so am already able to make warm tone prints. I was 
hoping that
> BO would expand my range of possible colors more in the neutral 
area than in
> the warm area.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 10:47 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing
> 
> 
> Hello Bellis,
> 
> >I've been using Epson Photo Black and Epson Enhanced Matte paper in
> >my 2200 for BO printing just to see what BO looked like. I've been
> >generally pleased with the results but the prints are on the warm
> >side so I replaced the Photo Black with MIS Eboni which everyone
> >seems to say is the best black to use for BO. I ran three cleaning
> >cycles  and then printed. The prints are still on the warm side and
> >don't otherwise look any different than the same prints done with
> >Photo Black. Is it possible that three cleaning cycles weren't
> enough
> >to remove all the Photo Black from the printer?
> 
> Three cycles should be enough.
> 
> 
> >Apart from that, what am I supposed to be seeing with MIS Eboni
> >that makes it preferable to Epson's Photo Black for BO printing?
> 
> Several things:  First, on any given matte paper Eboni will be a bit
> less warm than Photo Black (PK) or Matte Black (MK, which is also 
less
> warm than PK).  Second, Eboni and MK both have better Dmax than PK 
(on
> Matte paper).  Third, different papers render carbon inks at 
different
> degrees of warm.  With Eboni the tones range from cold, almost pure
> black, to warmer than EEM.  Because Eboni is the least warm of the
> non-dyed carbon blacks, gets among the highest longevity ratings, 
and
> is cheaper than the Epson inks (and some say is prettier), it has
> become the favorite ink for many BO users.
> 
> So on EEM, Eboni should still look warm, but not as warm as PK.  As
> for other papers, there is an article called "The Great Paper Chase"
> at the link below (#5 in the series) which lists several papers and
> describes the ink color and other properties using Eboni.  It's
> possible to have a selection of several papers that will produce a
> range of tones so we can choose one which best suits each image.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links

[Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing

2004-08-04 by Clayton Jones

Hello Rene,

>I'm also printing BO with Eboni. But before that I've used VM inks. 
>My experience was that the black of the VM system, gives a more 
>neutral tone then Eboni. 

Yes it does, because the VM black ink has dye in it and it will warm
over time (a few months) if exposed to light.  After it warms it will
be warmer than Eboni.  I used that ink before Eboni came along and
dared not sell a print made with it.  Not only does it warm but it
also fades over time.  I pinned prints to my bulletin board and
watched them fade over a year's time.  Eboni (and probably Museum
Black which according to Paul Roark seems like the same stuff) is the
least warm of the non-dyed black inks.

I've had an Eboni BO print on my south window sill since last November
5th getting some direct sunlight every day, and at 9 months now still
shows no signs of fading or color shifting.  Great stuff.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing

2004-08-04 by B. Campbell

Rene said: >I'm also printing BO with Eboni. But before that I've used VM
inks.
>My experience was that the black of the VM system, gives a more
>neutral tone then Eboni.

Then Clayton said: >Yes it does, because the VM black ink has dye in it and
it will warm
>over time (a few months) if exposed to light.  After it warms it will
>be warmer than Eboni.

I read Rene's message, tried the suggestion of printing BO with the MIS VM
black, and the print looked great, much more neutral than BO with Eboni. But
then Clayton had to come along and ruin everything. Oh well, I've made two
identical BO prints with MIS VM black. I'll keep one out and put the other
in a box, then compare then in a few months to confirm Clayton's statement
which I'm sure is true, I'd just like to see for myself. Too bad, the BO
print with MIS VM black looks really nice right now.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing


Hello Rene,

>I'm also printing BO with Eboni. But before that I've used VM inks.
>My experience was that the black of the VM system, gives a more
>neutral tone then Eboni.

Yes it does, because the VM black ink has dye in it and it will warm
over time (a few months) if exposed to light.  After it warms it will
be warmer than Eboni.  I used that ink before Eboni came along and
dared not sell a print made with it.  Not only does it warm but it
also fades over time.  I pinned prints to my bulletin board and
watched them fade over a year's time.  Eboni (and probably Museum
Black which according to Paul Roark seems like the same stuff) is the
least warm of the non-dyed black inks.

I've had an Eboni BO print on my south window sill since last November
5th getting some direct sunlight every day, and at 9 months now still
shows no signs of fading or color shifting.  Great stuff.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing

2004-08-04 by Clayton Jones

Hello B. ,

>then Clayton had to come along and ruin everything. 

Sorry to be a party pooper <g>.



>I've made two identical BO prints with MIS VM black. I'll keep 
>one out and put the other in a box, then compare then in a few 
>months to confirm Clayton's statement which I'm sure is true, 
>I'd just like to see for myself. 

Good idea.  How about making two more of the same print using Eboni
and do the same test with both inks side by side...  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

[Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing

2004-08-04 by Bob Michaels

I print BO with Eboni now. But before that I used Gen4 black in place
of the old MIS VM black. The Gen4 K seems to have the most neutral and
best DMax of any of the black inks. And, I didn't see too much warming
and fading. Now it does have some dye in it, thus the neutral tone and
DMax, plus some the problems with any ink containing some dye. 

But if you really have problems with the Eboni warmness, give the Gen4
K a try. I concluded that it was the best of the inks that had some
dye in them.

Just what you needed, another option, right?

Bob Michaels 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Campbell"
<bellis60@v...> wrote:
> Rene said: >I'm also printing BO with Eboni. But before that I've
used VM
> inks.
> >My experience was that the black of the VM system, gives a more
> >neutral tone then Eboni.
> 
> Then Clayton said: >Yes it does, because the VM black ink has dye in
it and
> it will warm
> >over time (a few months) if exposed to light.  After it warms it will
> >be warmer than Eboni.
> 
> I read Rene's message, tried the suggestion of printing BO with the
MIS VM
> black, and the print looked great, much more neutral than BO with
Eboni. But
> then Clayton had to come along and ruin everything. Oh well, I've
made two
> identical BO prints with MIS VM black. I'll keep one out and put the
other
> in a box, then compare then in a few months to confirm Clayton's
statement
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> which I'm sure is true, I'd just like to see for myself. Too bad, the BO
> print with MIS VM black looks really nice right now.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 3:12 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing
> 
> 
> Hello Rene,
> 
> >I'm also printing BO with Eboni. But before that I've used VM inks.
> >My experience was that the black of the VM system, gives a more
> >neutral tone then Eboni.
> 
> Yes it does, because the VM black ink has dye in it and it will warm
> over time (a few months) if exposed to light.  After it warms it will
> be warmer than Eboni.  I used that ink before Eboni came along and
> dared not sell a print made with it.  Not only does it warm but it
> also fades over time.  I pinned prints to my bulletin board and
> watched them fade over a year's time.  Eboni (and probably Museum
> Black which according to Paul Roark seems like the same stuff) is the
> least warm of the non-dyed black inks.
> 
> I've had an Eboni BO print on my south window sill since last November
> 5th getting some direct sunlight every day, and at 9 months now still
> shows no signs of fading or color shifting.  Great stuff.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing

2004-08-05 by B. Campbell

>Good idea.  How about making two more of the same print using Eboni
>and do the same test with both inks side by side...

O.K., I'll do that too.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 5:46 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ink For Black Only Printing


Hello B. ,

>then Clayton had to come along and ruin everything.

Sorry to be a party pooper <g>.



>I've made two identical BO prints with MIS VM black. I'll keep
>one out and put the other in a box, then compare then in a few
>months to confirm Clayton's statement which I'm sure is true,
>I'd just like to see for myself.

Good idea.  How about making two more of the same print using Eboni
and do the same test with both inks side by side...


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from th
e membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

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