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[Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

[Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-26 by Paul Roark

Tyler wrote:

>...
>Spectratones
>I don't understand why this alternative doesn't get the
>attention it deserves.

I don't see much information about it.  I assume Lyson and Spectratones are
the two options for dye-based quads that will work on glossy paper.  Lyson
is a large company that supports its products, but where does one get
information, workflows, control curves, or whatever is needed to print with
Spectratones?

I didn't look into dye-based inks because I wanted the fade-resistance that
pigments give.  However, there may be another problem with dye-based
quads -- metamerism.  The feedback I've seen regarding Lyson indicates it
has a serious metamerism problem.  Jon Cone has indicated that this problem
is characteristic of dye-based quads.  I don't know, not having tried them.
Is this true?

Also, you've noted that Spectratones basically reverse-engineered the Epson
ink densities.  While this may work for 6-ink printers, it is contrary to
the partitioning approach to quad ink distribution that makes quads so good
on the 4-ink printers.

So, if Spectratone is a good, viable option, those using or supplying it
need to help get the information out there.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-26 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
...but where does one get
> information, workflows, control curves, or whatever is needed to print with
> Spectratones?
http://www.lincolninks.com/
> 
> I didn't look into dye-based inks because I wanted the fade-resistance that
> pigments give.  However, there may be another problem with dye-based
> quads -- metamerism. 
Despite conjecture to the contrary, neither longevity nor metamerism are strict dye vrs pigment issues.

> The feedback I've seen regarding Lyson indicates it
> has a serious metamerism problem.
It does, however Spectratones on the recommended papers are not objectionable. All current mono inksets do this in one 
direction or another, to various degrees.
> 
... While this may work for 6-ink printers, it is contrary to
> the partitioning approach to quad ink distribution that makes quads so good
> on the 4-ink printers.
So obviously, the appropriate workflow will be required, as with all the other quad inks used 4 color.
> 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
> I wasn't crazy about the samples they provided me. The product certainly
> showed potential, like deep blacks and a uniform neutral color, but the
> prints on glossy paper showed a lot of microbanding, and some bronzing of
> the deepest blacks,
workflow issues, you know as well as I do there is no reason to judge an inkset by those particular issues.

 and the print on the water color paper was just not my
> cup of tea at all (read washed-out).
The poster expressed no interest in that kind of paper, rather luster, semi-gloss or glossy.
In fact, he seemed to have a specific niche, there is nothing else worth pursuing as I would never recommend Lysonic after 
going through many hundreds of dollars worth of it.
Good grief, what did I do this time?
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-26 by Todd Flashner

on 10/26/01 4:08 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

>> I wasn't crazy about the samples they provided me. The product certainly
>> showed potential, like deep blacks and a uniform neutral color, but the
>> prints on glossy paper showed a lot of microbanding, and some bronzing of
>> the deepest blacks,

> workflow issues, you know as well as I do there is no reason to judge an
> inkset by those particular issues.
 
>> and the print on the water color paper was just not my
>> cup of tea at all (read washed-out).

> The poster expressed no interest in that kind of paper, rather luster,
> semi-gloss or glossy.
> In fact, he seemed to have a specific niche, there is nothing else worth
> pursuing as I would never recommend Lysonic after
> going through many hundreds of dollars worth of it.
> Good grief, what did I do this time?
> Tyler

Tyler

I hope I didn't come across as challenging to your sentiment or advice. I
tried to be fair to the product and mention what I did see as it's upside.

I was just speaking broadly to my experience with the product as it was
presented to me, and to your dismay as to why a good product gets such
little airplay. Unfortunately, I think it is because the producers/marketers
don't put out compelling information and samples.

The sentiment I was trying to express here is the same on I expressed on the
Ink Options list regarding Indelible Inks: that market acceptance will in
large degree be predicated upon savvy marketing, regardless of how
phenomenal the product may be. Frankly, I think it's becoming more and more
apparent that the inks that will do well will be those that come with a
packaged "workflow", be that profiles, curves, or drivers (i.e., Piezo and
MIS). Surely others can do well (Generations) but I believe not nearly as
well as they would do with a good sales and support structure. I'm talking
about quality for the masses, which so far, nobody is better at than Epson,
in spite of all their foibles. But that's not to say other companies can't
find a way to emulate Epson's convenience factor. If it's true that Epson
sells it's hardware cheap and makes it's money on consumables than there
should surely be incentive for upstarts to attempt to steal some of that
more lucrative business.

Anyway, when the intrepid among us do put the work into making good use of
these inks I certainly hope they'll share their results. I'd like to see
Spectratones used more, as they probably are the best product for certain
applications, particularly those applications you rightly addressed.

Todd

[Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-26 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
> I hope I didn't come across as challenging to your sentiment or advice. I
> tried to be fair to the product and mention what I did see as it's upside.

Yes, you did. It was just curious to me why, when I mention the only viable product available as a solution to the posted 
"problems", it seemed to be challenged. I'm hoping the list remains as open as Martin intended. Since most of us seem 
backed into our corners pretty tightly, I'm not too interested in duking it out with regular members anymore. But a new 
member with a new problem needs info.
> 
> I was just speaking broadly to my experience with the product as it was
> presented to me, and to your dismay as to why a good product gets such
> little airplay. Unfortunately, I think it is because the producers/marketers
> don't put out compelling information and samples.

MIS puts out nothing. Allen will gladly send samples to anyone and based on my experience (as a  beta tester) would 
probably personally hold your hand while you get going.
> 
> The sentiment I was trying to express here is the same on I expressed on the
> Ink Options list regarding Indelible Inks: that market acceptance will in
> large degree be predicated upon savvy marketing, regardless of how
> phenomenal the product may be.

I'm too cynical Todd, I suspect John and Allen are simply too nice, lacking the prerequisite killer instinct. Hence, my respect.

> Frankly, I think it's becoming more and more
> apparent that the inks that will do well will be those that come with a
> packaged "workflow", be that profiles, curves, or drivers (i.e., Piezo and
> MIS).

MIS doesn't and never did have a clue about how to get their ink on paper in any useful fashion. They are completely 
dependent on the good will of users that manage to come up with a workflow. Immediately someone will take that as a 
judgment, it's not. It's a fact, without goodness or badness.
The Spectratones do have suggested workflows on their site, I can't vouch for them, again, I'm sure excellent support could 
be anticipated.
MIS has the advantage of market longevity and price, Cone the attributes you mention.

> Anyway, when the intrepid among us do put the work into making good use of
> these inks I certainly hope they'll share their results. I'd like to see
> Spectratones used more, as they probably are the best product for certain
> applications, particularly those applications you rightly addressed.
> 
I suspect they simply do not fall within the interest of most of this list's current members, despite the list description. They 
need to find the right user group. I know of one person who considered them a solution for his needs who just doesn't hang 
out here, and I haven't seen Allen post in months, too bad. But I guarantee, I'll mention them every chance I get. Actually 
the Lysonics would look good for the poster, and are used to good ends by some people who are able to strictly control the 
display lighting. But I don't think many of us are able to do that.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-26 by Todd Flashner

> It was just curious to me why, when I mention the only viable product
> available as a solution to the posted
> "problems", it seemed to be challenged. I'm hoping the list remains as open as
> Martin intended. Since most of us seem
> backed into our corners pretty tightly, I'm not too interested in duking it
> out with regular members anymore.


Tyler

COM's Tyler, that's not fair! I'm tired of this innuendo. You say you don't
want to duke it out, but then go on to imply my opinion is tainted. Well it
ain't, or if it is it is only to the degree that I want an abundance of good
products to choose from, and I want competition to force better, more
affordable products. There I've laid my bias out for the world to judge.

People want to be marketed to. We don't want Spam, but we want an abundance
of information that we can obtain when we seek it out, and we want to know
our wants and needs have been considered.

Inkjetmall does a phenomenal job of it, with the Piezo package, good paper
selection, deep website, and listserver. Epson obviously does a good job of
it, and MIS, through good fortune, is just starting to do it. If
Spectratones were doing it as well, they'd sell a heap of ink too, and get a
lot of attention here.

You seemed to be asking why Spectratones doesn't get a lot of attention, so
people answered that. It's not always a big conspiracy.

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-27 by Steadman Uhlich

PHTTWWEEEET  (email sound of a referee's whistle blowing)

Time out fellas.   Each of you boxers to your corners.  Until the next round!

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tyler Boley 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:02 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
  > Tyler
  > 
  > COM's Tyler, that's not fair! I'm tired of this innuendo. You say you don't
  > want to duke it out, but then go on to imply my opinion is tainted.

  Good Lord Todd, what on earth must be wrong with the way I state things? I implied I'm not engaging in certain debates 
  anymore with certain people, but I sure didn't think you and I were duking it out just then, nor was there any innuendo, nor 
  did I imply your opinion was tainted.

  snip...
  > You seemed to be asking why Spectratones doesn't get a lot of attention, so
  > people answered that. It's not always a big conspiracy.

  I'll be damned if I can figure out how I might have implied I think it is.
  So here I am again, attempting to sort out what appears to be yet another misunderstanding surrounding my posts. This is 
  clearly not fun, and other than some way OT threads about art, I'm having trouble remembering the last time it was. So 
  Todd, can you tell me why I keep coming back, or should continue to? Who needs this? You don't, I don't.
  Tyler



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-27 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
> Tyler
> 
> COM's Tyler, that's not fair! I'm tired of this innuendo. You say you don't
> want to duke it out, but then go on to imply my opinion is tainted.

Good Lord Todd, what on earth must be wrong with the way I state things? I implied I'm not engaging in certain debates 
anymore with certain people, but I sure didn't think you and I were duking it out just then, nor was there any innuendo, nor 
did I imply your opinion was tainted.

snip...
> You seemed to be asking why Spectratones doesn't get a lot of attention, so
> people answered that. It's not always a big conspiracy.

I'll be damned if I can figure out how I might have implied I think it is.
So here I am again, attempting to sort out what appears to be yet another misunderstanding surrounding my posts. This is 
clearly not fun, and other than some way OT threads about art, I'm having trouble remembering the last time it was. So 
Todd, can you tell me why I keep coming back, or should continue to? Who needs this? You don't, I don't.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-27 by Todd Flashner

Tyler

When you said "I'm hoping the list remains as open as Martin intended." to
my ears it sounds like it's not as open as Martin intended. I have no idea
why you would put that sentiment in a post responding to my words. If there
is some great Oz pulling strings on this list I'd like to know about it as
much as anybody.

I was sensing some grudge from you ("duke it out" were your words) and took
it personally. If you do begrudge something/someone please just spell it
out, otherwise it looms large and mysterious, and casts doubt on the
integrity of the list at large, and I think it's unfair to the innocent.

Peace,
Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>> COM's Tyler, that's not fair! I'm tired of this innuendo. You say you don't
>> want to duke it out, but then go on to imply my opinion is tainted.
> 
> Good Lord Todd, what on earth must be wrong with the way I state things? I
> implied I'm not engaging in certain debates
> anymore with certain people, but I sure didn't think you and I were duking it
> out just then, nor was there any innuendo, nor
> did I imply your opinion was tainted.
> 
> snip...
>> You seemed to be asking why Spectratones doesn't get a lot of attention, so
>> people answered that. It's not always a big conspiracy.
> 
> I'll be damned if I can figure out how I might have implied I think it is.
> So here I am again, attempting to sort out what appears to be yet another
> misunderstanding surrounding my posts. This is
> clearly not fun, and other than some way OT threads about art, I'm having
> trouble remembering the last time it was. So
> Todd, can you tell me why I keep coming back, or should continue to? Who needs
> this? You don't, I don't.
> Tyler

Spectratone Inks [Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these?

2001-10-27 by Martin Wesley

Todd, Tyler,

Well the list is as open as Antonis and I intended in that anything 
even vaguely on topic is welcome. In reality the list is very top 
heavy on inkjet printing and that very much weighted towards pigment 
inks. I think that that is simply because that is where most of the 
interest is in digital B&W at this point in time.

I do wish that there were more postings on the other technologies 
though.

I have seen the Spectratone sample prints and I think that for anyone 
who needs a quality glossy print they are much better than struggling 
with trying to get the pigment inks to stick to a slick surface. 
Lincoln Inks does need to work on their packaging, printer support 
and available papers. I believe that they would be willing to work 
with anyone who wanted to give the inks a try on a specific printer 
other than the 3000 or 1200. My impression is that they are mostly 
pursuing the large format printers rather than the desktop though.

Hopefully an end user will share their experiences with us. I would 
really like to hear if anyone has had success using them on a 1280 or 
1270.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Tyler
> 
> When you said "I'm hoping the list remains as open as Martin 
intended." to
> my ears it sounds like it's not as open as Martin intended. I have 
no idea

(snip)

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