Digital BW, The Print

I am looking for a new B&W exhibition printing solution and am interested in hearing 
feedback from serious power users of MIS or other monochrome inks.

I am one of  very few Epson Stylus Pro 7600 owners who has ever been able to get Cone 
quad inks up and running out of the box.  For eight months I was able to produce, exhibit 
and sell the most georgeous digital B&W prints I have ever seen, using Cone's Museum 
Black, Carbon Sepia and Selenium ink sets in various split tone combinations on 
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.  I linearized my split tone ink combos with Studio Print 10 RIP 
software and a Greytag Eye One Photo spectrometer.  The smoothness, rich tonality, 
delicate highlights, overall brilliance and breathtaking split-tone effects that I got were 
beyond anything I have ever seen out of an ink jet printer (earlier Cone quad tone prints 
that I had done by a service bureau on an Epson 7000 were much grainier, by compariosn,  
and had much rougher tonal transiotions than those from my 7600).  The headaches of 
running Cone inks- constant nozzle checks and cleanings, running strip tests before each 
large print, plus the 25-30% paper wasted due to banding- all seemed justified by the 
stunning beauty of the prints I was getting from my drum-scanned 5x7 negatives.

Cone inks also performed magnificiently in my own fade tests, which consisted of 
subjecting various types of print samples, side by side, to 8 weeks of direct sunlight in 
Central California.  Over and over again, the Cone inks on Photo Rag paper beat every 
other type of inkjet sample that I tested.  In fact, I could see no fading whatsoever in the 
Cone print samples with my naked eye (all that really matters, as far as I am concerned) 
when they were matched up with their other halves that had been kept in a dark drawer.  
Only selenium toned silver print samples performed as well as the Cone samples in my 
grueling tests.

Alas, it all came to an end when my 7600 finally clogged up for good, following a 
month of travel without printing.  Epson was kind enough to replace the print heads twice 
at their expense under warranty.  But it was to no avail.  I spent a couple of months trying 
every de-clogging trick I had learned from Larry Danque at Cone Editions and finally threw 
in the towel.  I flushed the printer and installed Epson's Ultrachrome inks (which ran 
perfectly without clogging) , then embarked on an exhaustive and frustrating four month 
investigation of every software solution available for printing B&W from UC inks.

I tried Image Print 6.0's "gray pigment" profiles and found the results to be overly cool in 
tone and totally lacking in character and subtlety.  IP's so-called "tint picker" only warmed 
up the lighter tones, leaving the darker tones with an unpleasant cyan-blue cast.  Next, I 
tried Studio Print 11 along with its profiling system, which was very laborius and produced 
mediocre results in both color and B&W.  Metamerism was reduced, but, as far as I am 
concerned, no amount of metamerism is acceptable in a B&W print.  Finally I tried a 
shareware called "QTR," which proved to be a rather rinky-dink RIP that produced garishly 
colored pre-fab tones with some metamerism.  Better tones could be achieved by blending 
two opposite QTR tones, but they were inconsistent across the tonal scale and the 
metamerism persisted.

Meanwhile, I ordered printed samples of Lyson's quad tone inks, fade tested them and got 
very disappointing results.  I also noticed some metamerism, as they are dye-based inks.

Then I got some Sundance sample prints, but found the tones- a greenish warm and a 
bluish cool- not to my liking, compared with Cone's rich, brownish Carbon Sepia and very 
neutral Selenium ink sets.

I recently learned about MIS inks and BowHaus software.  I would love to hear from serious 
power users about their experiences with these or any other monochrome inks that I may 
not have heard about.

Meanwhile my career has ground to a halt as I cannot fill print orders to my satisfaction.  
In the case of some corporate and institutional print orders, I have used Image Print's gray 
profiles, which I find the least offensive of the Ultrachrome B&W solutions I have tried (at 
least there is no metamerism).

Personally, I would like to see Epson take Cone's concept and manufacture the ink 
properly, so that it doesn't clog.  The one thing I can say about Ultrachrome inks is that 
they are almost trouble free.  Surely Epson could achieve the same results with one or 
more monochrome ink sets.  I have been urging everyone I can to contact Epson and ask 
for warm and neutral monochrome ink sets.  I have had a very productive conversation 
with a senior rep at Epson who knows enough about B&W to know that it will never be 
possible to make collectable, museum quality B&W prints from UC inks.  If enough B&W 
printmakers make enough noise, Epson will respond.

Joel Pickford

Not as few as you might imagine. There are a number of people out there 
with x6xx printers running Cone's inks, including me. I started in 
August of 2003, before Cone did - long before Cone was selling ink in 
chipped carts for the x6xx printers. Long enough for me to learn to hate 
filling my own carts ;-) My 7600 has been running fine ever since. The 
only serious clog I've had came from UltraChrome inks in the first month 
I had the machine, and it required an Epson tech. to fix. Since I 
installed the PiezoTones it's been pretty smooth sailing, even with 
sustained periods (three months) without printing.

All pigment inks clog. It's the laws of physics. There is no magic 
bullet, unless it's dye inks. Other than Lyson's grayscale dyes (and 
their metamerism problems), there are no viable grayscale dye inks on 
the market AFAIK.

IMHO, your best bet is still the PiezoTones. Things you can do (that you 
probably already know) to help with clogging are to keep the relative 
humidity over 50% near the printer (humidifier when needed) and keep the 
pads in the capping station saturated with distilled water (I soak 'em 
every week during winter).

If you aren't going to go there again, the MIS inks have legions of 
fans. Somehow I don't think you're going to be happy with a variable 
tone inkset though... which just leads you back to PiezoTones.

I wish I had more wisdom to offer.
--
Hogarth Hughes


joelpickford wrote:

>
>
> I am looking for a new B&W exhibition printing solution and am 
> interested in hearing
> feedback from serious power users of MIS or other monochrome inks.
>
> I am one of  very few Epson Stylus Pro 7600 owners who has ever been 
> able to get Cone
> quad inks up and running out of the box.  For eight months I was able 
> to produce, exhibit
> and sell the most georgeous digital B&W prints I have ever seen, using 
> Cone's Museum
> Black, Carbon Sepia and Selenium ink sets in various split tone 
> combinations on
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.

I thought of trying a humidifier, as the RH in my
printing area ranges from %33 to 48%.  Larry told me
that a range of 30% to 70% was fine (but they have
high humidity in Vermont and have to run AC all the
time to keep it down).

Did you by any chance get a bad batch of Cone ink last
May or June?  I heard there was a large batch that
clogged really badly.  I may have some of this ink. 
When I tried to get up and running after the head
replacement, it was just hopeless.  I have talked with
quite a few other new Epson X6XX owners who also tried
to start out with Cone and gave up.  In fact, when I
started out with my new 7600 and Cone inks, I couldn't
get a clean nozzle check at all in three days of
trying.  Epson was going to send out a service tech,
but I had to go away for two weeks, so I put them on
hold.  When I got back, the printer miraculously
worked after one cleaning cycle.

Which RIP are you using?  I have thought of switching
from Studio Print to Image Print for quad printing,
because IP is generally a much better program and also
seems to have a better dither than SP.  If anything is
even slightly out of alignment, you very easily get
banding in SP.

Joel Pickford

--- Hogarth Hughes <hogarth@...> wrote:

> Not as few as you might imagine. There are a number
> of people out there 
> with x6xx printers running Cone's inks, including
> me. I started in 
> August of 2003, before Cone did - long before Cone
> was selling ink in 
> chipped carts for the x6xx printers. Long enough for
> me to learn to hate 
> filling my own carts ;-) My 7600 has been running
> fine ever since. The 
> only serious clog I've had came from UltraChrome
> inks in the first month 
> I had the machine, and it required an Epson tech. to
> fix. Since I 
> installed the PiezoTones it's been pretty smooth
> sailing, even with 
> sustained periods (three months) without printing.
> 
> All pigment inks clog. It's the laws of physics.
> There is no magic 
> bullet, unless it's dye inks. Other than Lyson's
> grayscale dyes (and 
> their metamerism problems), there are no viable
> grayscale dye inks on 
> the market AFAIK.
> 
> IMHO, your best bet is still the PiezoTones. Things
> you can do (that you 
> probably already know) to help with clogging are to
> keep the relative 
> humidity over 50% near the printer (humidifier when
> needed) and keep the 
> pads in the capping station saturated with distilled
> water (I soak 'em 
> every week during winter).
> 
> If you aren't going to go there again, the MIS inks
> have legions of 
> fans. Somehow I don't think you're going to be happy
> with a variable 
> tone inkset though... which just leads you back to
> PiezoTones.
> 
> I wish I had more wisdom to offer.
> --
> Hogarth Hughes
> 
> 
> joelpickford wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > I am looking for a new B&W exhibition printing
> solution and am 
> > interested in hearing
> > feedback from serious power users of MIS or other
> monochrome inks.
> >
> > I am one of  very few Epson Stylus Pro 7600 owners
> who has ever been 
> > able to get Cone
> > quad inks up and running out of the box.  For
> eight months I was able 
> > to produce, exhibit
> > and sell the most georgeous digital B&W prints I
> have ever seen, using 
> > Cone's Museum
> > Black, Carbon Sepia and Selenium ink sets in
> various split tone 
> > combinations on
> > Hahnemuhle Photo Rag. 
> 
>

Joel, Have you thought about using a 7000 or 9000 printer? I have both and 
and are virtually trouble free. I run  custom blends from all 3 inksets 
Selenium, WN and Sepia. with Studio Print.Most of the time I don't even do nozzell 
checks unless its been several days to a week without printing and even then they 
are usally fine.
Just a thought since they are probably pretty cheap to try out, but are 
getting hard to find. I have a set of your prints that where Cone samples a couple 
years ago, would hate to see you abandon Piezotones. I have been the MIS 
monochrome route, just don't care for the tone, plus there isn't much to work with 
as far as split toning that you can manage with studio print. Well at least 
not the subtle splits of piezotones.
You may have to give MIS inks a try and see for yourself. You may be pleased.

Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>...Somehow I don't think you're going to be happy with a variable 
>tone inkset though... 

Gosh, I thought I heard a positive comment about split toning.  No monotone
inkset can match what the UT7 inkset can do in this respect.  It also beats
the PT inks (as well as Epson UC and Archival inksets) in my fade tests.

See my Readme file for the 2200 & UT7 for some details.  It's at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT-2200-Readme.htm .  

Bill Schwab has been running UT7 in a 7600 for some time now.  See
http://www.billschwab.com/digital_bw.html .

If you don't do sepia tone, load a second light carbon cart (LC) into the Y
position (with appropriate chip).

I assume IJC/OPM will work fine with UT7 in a 7600, but I've never tried.
Frankly, I like the Epson driver.  Take a look at some of the 2200 curves to
see how easy this inkset is to control.  These are not the old quad type
partitioning curves.  You can download some of the 2200 curves from my
webpage.  See the index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm .

Then again, if you really like monotone, that is what I'm now running in my
7500.  See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/7500-FS-Readme.htm .

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Steve, didn't Joel say he already tried the 7000 route & found the
prints too grainy in 
appearance?  Have you avoided this appeaarance?  

Joel, I looked at your admirable work on the Web & can understand
your frustration (which 
you also expressed concerning my Digital Outback BW Forum post,
comparing IP & QTR).  
From the web representations, crude as they may be in comparison to a
fine print, one can 
tell what tonalities your images are asking for, and I hope & pray
that you find satisfying 
materials.  

But your request to Epson, while reasonable (assuming they can get
carbon through the 
nozzles) & even potentially profitable, will no doubt get the
attention that Epson customer 
feedback always receives.  The Tech Support folks seem to hear & know
what many of the 
problems are, but are considered too lowly to have influence with
project developers & 
engineers.    

Assuming an Epson solution is hopeless, I have three thoughts about
what you've said 
here (& there):

First, I agree with most of what you say about available BW printing
systems.  In comparing 
IP & QTR, I didn't mean to say they set the highest standards -
though I tend to attribute 
as much difficulty to the limited DMax of matte papers as to the inks
& RIPs.  The same 
group that I mentioned also looked at Cone system sample prints, but
only as anacademic 
standard of comparison - nobody planned on tacklingt the clogging
problems of either 
Cone or MIS inks.  

Second, I think you've almost talked yourself back into the
darkroom.wI don't meana that 
as a jab, I mean it seriously: With your Cone system dead, is
anything likely to prove more 
satisfying than a fine gelatin silver print? 

Third - and this is the path that interests me - maybe we have to ask
what sort of style & 
vision can emerge through existing inkjet systems.  In my color work
I've learned to turn 
away from 'Eggleston colors' & look for images that can play
themselves out through the 
softer palette of pigment inks. 

I'm assuming that I have to make the same adaptations in inkjet BW
printing.  I've tried 3 
RIPs & have been playing at reproducing (as closely as possible) the
appearance of old 
matte papers.  Of course these weren't as popular as unferrotyped
glossy papers; but my 
next trip to SFMOMA will be a search for inspirations that don't
depend on the tonal range 
that so excited Weston when he first made bromide prints.  What kind
of light might 
register well, within the limitations of inkjet printing?  I'm going
to look for the Pictorialist 
stuff that I've always ignored, & will be looking especially at the
Atget prints, original & 
reprinted, that show up at the Fraenkel Gallery.  He could, after
all, capture a glorious 
sense of light with abundant flare & few Zones of latitude.  

I have several friends who use alternative printing processes that
don't utilize the deepest 
blacks & do not depend at all on consistency of tone across the
grayscale.  Some of them 
are becoming interested in inkjet printing from digital negatives. 
While that isn't what I - 
or presumably you - would want to do, it does suggest that there's
some creative space 
available within the limits of BW inkjet printing systems.  

Pardon me for expressing this at such length!

Kirk Thompson

In a message dated 1/4/2005 10:01:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
thompsonkirk@... writes:

> Steve, didn't Joel say he already tried the 7000 route &found the
> prints too grainy in 
> appearance?  Have you avoided this appeaarance?  
> 
Yes I guess he did say that Service Bureau prints he had done with 
piezography had grain issues and tone transitions where not as smooth. 
All I can say is it must be a workflow issue or this was prior to Studio 
Print.
Properly done quads are smooth as silk. I have seen many 3000 prints that are 
just as smooth as quad and hex 7600 prints.
My prints are definitely not grainy. Smooth and dotless. Joel being a 5x7 
shooter
I would have to say The service bureau did know what they where doing. What 
about the the 5x7 cone sample prints of Joel's images?
Did he think those where grainy? they where done on a 7000 but prior to 
studio print.
 I have used all the piezo products from J.Cone, the plugin, Piezopro 24, and 
Studio print does make the best prints with his inks.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd hate to argue with Larry. He's got a boat load of experience more 
than I have. But.... I did find that raising my RH from 35% to 50%+ 
helped a great deal in lessening the instances of clogs, and the 
severity of the clogs that do occur. The thing that helps the most 
however, is keeping those capping station pads soaked in distilled water.

I'm using the StudioPrint RIP. I've found it to be quite a nice program, 
and ErgoSoft's tech. support (at least in the USA) is first rate. 
They've talked me through several fine tuning issues and as a result I'm 
getting really smooth prints. I haven't experienced any banding issues 
with my prints. Examined with a 10x loupe, I find many areas where I 
still can't see dots (I tend to print at 2880). So it's safe to say that 
I don't have any problems with the dither patterns from StudioPrint.

I've never used ImagePrint, so can't comment on it.

As to ink batches. I did not buy any ink in May/June last year. I tend 
to spend the springs and falls out in the field photographing, and 
process and print mostly in the summer and winter, so at that time I was 
just getting back to printing and had ink on hand.

I'm not much help, I'm afraid. You might try looking in the archives (as 
much as Yahoo will let you anyway) for the Yahoo group 
"EpsonWideFormat." There are a handful of large format PiezoTone users 
who participate from time to time, and there are clogging discussions 
(all the piggies catch hell at one time or another) that occur on a 
regular basis:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/messages

--
Hogarth Hughes


Joel Pickford wrote:

> I thought of trying a humidifier, as the RH in my
> printing area ranges from %33 to 48%.  Larry told me
> that a range of 30% to 70% was fine (but they have
> high humidity in Vermont and have to run AC all the
> time to keep it down).
>
> Did you by any chance get a bad batch of Cone ink last
> May or June?  I heard there was a large batch that
> clogged really badly.  I may have some of this ink.
> When I tried to get up and running after the head
> replacement, it was just hopeless.  I have talked with
> quite a few other new Epson X6XX owners who also tried
> to start out with Cone and gave up.  In fact, when I
> started out with my new 7600 and Cone inks, I couldn't
> get a clean nozzle check at all in three days of
> trying.  Epson was going to send out a service tech,
> but I had to go away for two weeks, so I put them on
> hold.  When I got back, the printer miraculously
> worked after one cleaning cycle.
>
> Which RIP are you using?  I have thought of switching
> from Studio Print to Image Print for quad printing,
> because IP is generally a much better program and also
> seems to have a better dither than SP.  If anything is
> even slightly out of alignment, you very easily get
> banding in SP.
>
> Joel Pickford
>
> --- Hogarth Hughes <hogarth@...> wrote:
>
> > Not as few as you might imagine. There are a number
> > of people out there
> > with x6xx printers running Cone's inks, including
> > me. I started in
> > August of 2003, before Cone did - long before Cone
> > was selling ink in
> > chipped carts for the x6xx printers. Long enough for
> > me to learn to hate
> > filling my own carts ;-) My 7600 has been running
> > fine ever since. The
> > only serious clog I've had came from UltraChrome
> > inks in the first month
> > I had the machine, and it required an Epson tech. to
> > fix. Since I
> > installed the PiezoTones it's been pretty smooth
> > sailing, even with
> > sustained periods (three months) without printing.
> >
> > All pigment inks clog. It's the laws of physics.
> > There is no magic
> > bullet, unless it's dye inks. Other than Lyson's
> > grayscale dyes (and
> > their metamerism problems), there are no viable
> > grayscale dye inks on
> > the market AFAIK.
> >
> > IMHO, your best bet is still the PiezoTones. Things
> > you can do (that you
> > probably already know) to help with clogging are to
> > keep the relative
> > humidity over 50% near the printer (humidifier when
> > needed) and keep the
> > pads in the capping station saturated with distilled
> > water (I soak 'em
> > every week during winter).
> >
> > If you aren't going to go there again, the MIS inks
> > have legions of
> > fans. Somehow I don't think you're going to be happy
> > with a variable
> > tone inkset though... which just leads you back to
> > PiezoTones.
> >
> > I wish I had more wisdom to offer.
> > --
> > Hogarth Hughes
> >
> >
>

Joel, I have been using nearly the same set up, but with a 9600, for
over a year. I have had occassional problems with ink delivery,
particularly in the beginning, but now the printer tends to perform
for weeks at a time with only the occassional cleaning required. Then
it will be picky for a few days.
I don't want to suggest you should stick with a system that has cost
you so much grief. But just a couple of comments-
Banding is not a SP problem, it's a problem with any partitioned quad
system. Any nozzle drop out, any misalignment, or paper feed
inacuracey will result in banding. Any solution using UCs, where
multiple inks are used throughout the scale, will be less sensitive. I
can't imagine any fewer banding problems with IP in quad mode than SP,
however IPs UC B&W method will probably band less.
Not sure what experiences you have had that suggest IPs dither better
than SPs either. I'd be interested in more info.
I agree with your assesment of the acceptability of UC B&Ws in the
fine art realm, though people are doing it anyway.
I would suggest a higher humidity then Larry suggested as well, and I
usually clean and soak the capping station a few times a week. Also, I
found wiping the bottom of the head over windexed paper towel was
needed more often than I anticipated.
However, over the years I've seen people like yourself caught in a
cycle of problems with any number of systems, and at a certain point
it does seem wise to walk away. I'm very reluctant to suggest that you
 stick it out.
I don't think there's any system that really compares, frankly. I'm
wondering, since you have the RIP and like the prints, if it would be
worth looking into one of the other supported printers, even outside
the Epson family. Perhaps for the bigger investment, a more reliable
ink delivery and robust performance throughout would result.
Might be worth looking into. Steve's suggestion about the 7000s and
9000s is good to, I know several users that seem to be problem free.
But you won't have 7 inks, and will have to alter your hue/split
toning set up in SP. Most frustrating, problem free x600 users, x600
users with problems, and no viable explanation. There was no mention
of dampers in your email, flushing r replacing.
Wish I had something productive to offer.
Tyler

> > Steve, didn't Joel say he already tried the 7000
> route &found the
> > prints too grainy in 
> > appearance?  Have you avoided this appeaarance?  
> > 
> Yes I guess he did say that Service Bureau prints he
> had done with 
> piezography had grain issues and tone transitions
> where not as smooth. 

Regarding the 7000 vs. 7600 Cone print quality
comparison, I had a couple of 16x20s done at West
Coast Imaging a couple of years ago on their 7000
printer.  I liked the prints very much at the time and
I think the people at WCI do a great job in general
with what ever processes they happen to be working
with.  But when I got my 7600 and printed those same
images, then placed them side by side with the WCI
7000 prints, the quality difference was very apparent,
both in ink dot graininess and tonal scale smoothness.

Recently I had to postpone a large museum show for one
year, due to my printing dilemna.  Before taking that
disappointing decision, I had Larry Dangue at Cone
Editions do some test prints for me, with the idea
that I would have him make the 22x30s and 30x40s for
the show.  I have tremendous respect for Larry and I
think he is both a master printer and a great guy. 
But the quality of the 11x14 proofs we did on CE's
9500 printer was not up to the quality of previous
prints done on my 7600 when it was still running with
Cone inks.  Again, ink dot graininess was noticebly
worse on the 9500 and tonal transitions were not as
smooth.  A third issue also appeared: the 7500 did not
split the sepia and selenium colors in the same way or
as smoothly.  Larry and I experimented with changing
ink percentage settings in Studio Print and we got
closer to the look of my 7600 prints, but it still
wasn't as smooth a split.

I still think Epson could best solve this problem,
maintain their market share and enhance their brand by
coming out with a monochrome solution.  Their black
and gray inks are already fairly similar to Cone inks
and they do not clog.  I know this because I once
linearized Epson UC black and gray in a duotone and
the tonal color was very similar to Cone Carbon Sepia.
 So they could solve the clogging problem easily if
they wanted to.  The problem is getting a big
multinational corporation like Epson-Seiko to listen
to artists.  If they want to bring out a B&W solution
that will serve the needs of this growing community,
they need to involve artists and master printmakers in
the development process.

JP

I know this sounds twisted but - I hope not, us who print for hire will 
suffer. The fact that printing using problematic inks and printers 
makes us unique. If anyone can print on an Epson with Epson's 
monochrome solution, there is less need for me and other print for pay 
people. I long for the days when all this digital stuff cost too much 
for "anyone" to own.
Mark

On Jan 6, 2005, at 10:50 AM, Joel Pickford wrote:

>  I still think Epson could best solve this problem,
>  maintain their market share and enhance their brand by
>  coming out with a monochrome solution.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I did find that raising my RH
> from 35% to 50%+ 
> helped a great deal in lessening the instances of
> clogs, and the 
> severity of the clogs that do occur. The thing that
> helps the most 
> however, is keeping those capping station pads
> soaked in distilled water.

Thanks, Hogarth.  This is good advice.  If I decide to
go back to Cone inks I will definitely give this a
try.  But after experiencing the reliability and easy
maintainence of running Ultrachrome inks, I just know
there has got to be a way for someone to deliver a
monochrome solution with that same dependability.  At
the moment, I don't have the heart to go back to the
constant nozzle checks, cleaning cycles, strip tests
and expensive Hahnemuhle paper going to the trash due
to banding, not to mention the five hail marys you
have to say every time you click the print button.

--- Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:

> Not sure what experiences you have had that suggest
> IPs dither better
> than SPs either. I'd be interested in more info.

Tyler, thanks for your very helpful ideas.  Regarding
dither, here is what I have seen in comparing IP and
SP (I have both):  IP's dither is more stochastic. 
When you look at the prints with a loop, the ink dots
look like little amoebas swimming around; there are no
linear patterns.  SP's dither looks very rectilinear
under the loop.  The guys at Ergosoft (very nice and
helpful guys, by the way) mentioned something about a
new dither for version 11 that for some reason has
been cancelled by headquarters in Europe.  So in
version 11 there is a menu choice to select version 11
dither, but it isn't really available and you have to
use version 10 dither.  A linear dither such as SP
v.10 with only four colors in use is going to reveal
the slightest micro-clogging very quickly.  I have
lots of SP-Cone proof prints sitting around that look
great at first glance, but on close inspection reveal
very feint banding in certain tonal passages (usually
lower-middle tones).  With IP and UC inks I have never
ever had a banded print, even when using IP's "gray
pigment" profiles, which are nothing but duotones with
a little color thrown for smoothness and cooling.

I have heard that SP v.11 allows 6 color hextone B&W
printing to help overcome the banding problem.  If
anyone has specific knowledge about this, please post.
 My understanding is that it is not true hextone, but
merely makes redundant use of two positions repeating
two of the colors.

> I would suggest a higher humidity then Larry
> suggested as well, and I
> usually clean and soak the capping station a few
> times a week. Also, I
> found wiping the bottom of the head over windexed
> paper towel was
> needed more often than I anticipated.
 
I have tried some of these techniques at times, but
your point (and Hogarth's) about maintaining overall
moisture is well taken.  I am curious to know what
part of the country you (and also Hogarth) live in.  I
am guessing you live in the East, Midwest or South,
where humidity is higher.  I am in Central California,
which is fairly dry, though not as dry as Arizona or
New Mexico.

>I know this sounds twisted ...

Yes, it is. ;-)

> If anyone can print on an Epson with Epson's 
>monochrome solution, there is less need for me and other print for pay 
>people. I long for the days when all this digital stuff cost too much 
>for "anyone" to own.

Don't you think all those people with EZ C86 printers might want a few big
ones?  I hope they are going to expand the field; I don't think many are
going to buy large format printers.

As to the 7600 v. 7000 quality issue, bear in mind that I had to change the
density of the middle gray to get top notch performance out of my latest
7500 UT-FSN+ solution.  The Piezo M density ink is just not optimized for
these printers.  (The entire generation of 7000 - 9500 is supported by the
UT-FSN+ inkset.)  Antonis and Joe B. saw samples of what the approach can
do.  I think the 7500 and this generation of printers will be the first I'll
explore and support via IJC/OPM.

As to Epson UC inks, I made an Epson solution for those who think third
party inks are necessarily inferior.  But the UT-FSN will beat the UC inks
hands down in fade tests.  I don't have significant clogging, and I love
being able to print glossy or matte without changing the black ink.  That
2.3+ dmax on sprayed Epson Premium Semimatte (Wilhelm ">200 years") sure
makes a nice B&W option.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 






Mark

On Jan 6, 2005, at 10:50 AM, Joel Pickford wrote:

>  I still think Epson could best solve this problem,
>  maintain their market share and enhance their brand by
>  coming out with a monochrome solution.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Tyler,

I checked out your website and I will definitely keep
you in mind if I decide to have my museum show of
22x30s and 30x40s printed rather than going back to
using Cone inks myself.  Your 9600 printer will
provide the quality I have not seen from service
bureaus using 7000, 9000 or 9500 machines. Your prices
are very reasonable, as well.

I too, have enjoyed the "eggplant" hued selenium split
tones (one position sepia and two positions of
selenium), as well as a warmer split tones using two
positions of Sepia and one of selenium.

If you get a chance, check out my work at the Weston
gallery web site

www.westongallery.com



=====
Joel Pickford
PICKFORD PICTURES
1920 N. Echo Ave
Fresno, CA 93704

(559) 485-9540

I suspect the dither difference is because of the quad vrs UC
approach. A direct comparison of IPs quad approach and SPs would be
interesting. Or SPs UC approach vrs IPs, I'll have more on that at
some point.
I have seen some tests of the hextone option with v11 and specially
mixed inks for the full 6 partitions with a 9000 (could have been a
7000, but not a x600). I've never seen such smooth digital B&W prints.
No dots, period. No artifacts of any kind even under a loup. But of
course much tinkering to get it right.
I'm commited, for now, to variable hues, so the hex option is not for
me at present.
I live in Seattle, so not much humidity problem. Worst is now in the
winter when the heat is on all the time.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joel Pickford
<joelpickford@y...> wrote:

> 
> --- Tyler Boley <tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> > Not sure what experiences you have had that suggest
> > IPs dither better
> > than SPs either. I'd be interested in more info.
> 
> Tyler, thanks for your very helpful ideas.  Regarding
> dither, here is what I have seen in comparing IP and
> SP (I have both):  IP's dither is more stochastic. 
> When you look at the prints with a loop, the ink dots
> look like little amoebas swimming around; there are no
> linear patterns.  SP's dither looks very rectilinear
> under the loop.  The guys at Ergosoft (very nice and
> helpful guys, by the way) mentioned something about a
> new dither for version 11 that for some reason has
> been cancelled by headquarters in Europe.  So in
> version 11 there is a menu choice to select version 11
> dither, but it isn't really available and you have to
> use version 10 dither.  A linear dither such as SP
> v.10 with only four colors in use is going to reveal
> the slightest micro-clogging very quickly.  I have
> lots of SP-Cone proof prints sitting around that look
> great at first glance, but on close inspection reveal
> very feint banding in certain tonal passages (usually
> lower-middle tones).  With IP and UC inks I have never
> ever had a banded print, even when using IP's "gray
> pigment" profiles, which are nothing but duotones with
> a little color thrown for smoothness and cooling.
> 
> I have heard that SP v.11 allows 6 color hextone B&W
> printing to help overcome the banding problem.  If
> anyone has specific knowledge about this, please post.
>  My understanding is that it is not true hextone, but
> merely makes redundant use of two positions repeating
> two of the colors.
> 
> > I would suggest a higher humidity then Larry
> > suggested as well, and I
> > usually clean and soak the capping station a few
> > times a week. Also, I
> > found wiping the bottom of the head over windexed
> > paper towel was
> > needed more often than I anticipated.
>  
> I have tried some of these techniques at times, but
> your point (and Hogarth's) about maintaining overall
> moisture is well taken.  I am curious to know what
> part of the country you (and also Hogarth) live in.  I
> am guessing you live in the East, Midwest or South,
> where humidity is higher.  I am in Central California,
> which is fairly dry, though not as dry as Arizona or
> New Mexico.

> I have seen some tests of the hextone option with
> v11 and specially
> mixed inks for the full 6 partitions with a 9000
> (could have been a
> 7000, but not a x600). I've never seen such smooth
> digital B&W prints.
> No dots, period. No artifacts of any kind even under
> a loup.

Where, pray tell, did you see this experiment?  Is
someone working on bringing it to market?  I have been
theorizing lately that hex would be the ultimate
solution, but have never seen it in the flesh.

Mark, I don't hink you need to worry. Even if Epson comes out with
something, there will always be those tweakers way ahead of them,
providing more artistically pleasing options. Of course, there will
also always be fools like us willing to struggle with making those
options work. The down side is that there are people like Joel, who
just hit a dead end no matter what they do. I've had my fair share,
but am still making things work. Stories like Joels keep me up at night.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:

> I know this sounds twisted but - I hope not, us who print for hire will 
> suffer. The fact that printing using problematic inks and printers 
> makes us unique. If anyone can print on an Epson with Epson's 
> monochrome solution, there is less need for me and other print for pay 
> people. I long for the days when all this digital stuff cost too much 
> for "anyone" to own.
> Mark
> 
> On Jan 6, 2005, at 10:50 AM, Joel Pickford wrote:
> 
> >  I still think Epson could best solve this problem,
> >  maintain their market share and enhance their brand by
> >  coming out with a monochrome solution.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I gave up on the worry part years ago, just takin' my punches.
Mark

On Jan 6, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

>
>  Mark, I don't hink you need to worry. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beautiful work Joel. If you do ever feel the need to talk about
printing, lets just hope my setup is still functioning <G>.
By the way, my ink combo is not identical to what you were doing. My
warm is not straight Sepia, but a Sepia/Warm Neutral mix...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joel Pickford
<joelpickford@y...> wrote:

> Tyler,
> 
> I checked out your website and I will definitely keep
> you in mind if I decide to have my museum show of
> 22x30s and 30x40s printed rather than going back to
> using Cone inks myself.  Your 9600 printer will
> provide the quality I have not seen from service
> bureaus using 7000, 9000 or 9500 machines. Your prices
> are very reasonable, as well.
> 
> I too, have enjoyed the "eggplant" hued selenium split
> tones (one position sepia and two positions of
> selenium), as well as a warmer split tones using two
> positions of Sepia and one of selenium.
> 
> If you get a chance, check out my work at the Weston
> gallery web site
> 
> www.westongallery.com
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> Joel Pickford
> PICKFORD PICTURES
> 1920 N. Echo Ave
> Fresno, CA 93704
> 
> (559) 485-9540

Well, it's on the market in the sense that SPv11 has the ability, and
Cone has the ink components to work with. I probably shouldn't speak
for the person who has been working so hard on it. I know he changed
the dilutions a bit to make 6 gray inks, and fooled with the density
settings in SP for each ink.
Both Peter Supry and Jon are aware of his efforts and supportive, but
it's not available all as a purchasable package ready to go. Not sure
if it will be either, I gave up on pursuing it realizing I would need
an additional 6 ink printer commited to one hue. So I lost touch with
whatever progress was being made. One day maybe.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joel Pickford
<joelpickford@y...> wrote:

> 
> > I have seen some tests of the hextone option with
> > v11 and specially
> > mixed inks for the full 6 partitions with a 9000
> > (could have been a
> > 7000, but not a x600). I've never seen such smooth
> > digital B&W prints.
> > No dots, period. No artifacts of any kind even under
> > a loup.
> 
> Where, pray tell, did you see this experiment?  Is
> someone working on bringing it to market?  I have been
> theorizing lately that hex would be the ultimate
> solution, but have never seen it in the flesh.

In a message dated 1/6/2005 7:55:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
joelpickford@... writes:

> Regarding the 7000 vs. 7600 Cone print quality
> comparison, I had a couple of 16x20s done at West
> Coast Imaging a couple of years ago on their 7000
> printer.  I liked the prints very much at the time and
> I think the people at WCI do a great job in general
> with what ever processes they happen to be working
> with.  But when I got my 7600 and printed those same
> images, then placed them side by side with the WCI
> 7000 prints, the quality difference was very apparent,
> both in ink dot graininess and tonal scale smoothness.
> Snip>
Interesting Joel. I have heard on several occasions that the 7500 and 9500 
where a tad more grainy in output compared to the 7000 and 9000. 
I have both a 7000 and a 9000 and even with same inks I could never get a 
perfect match between the printers, close enough but there have always been 
differences and probably always will be. I do use 5 of the inks most of the time 
Black, 2 magenta densities and 2 
Yellow densities and various combos of Sel, WN, and Sepia. The Cyan Positions 
if I have them both on there is bleed.
Studio print 11 came today, so soon I will know if there is any benefit for 
the Piezotone environments.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I do use 5
> of the inks most of the time 
> Black, 2 magenta densities and 2 
> Yellow densities and various combos of Sel, WN, and
> Sepia. The Cyan Positions 
> if I have them both on there is bleed.
> Studio print 11 came today, so soon I will know if
> there is any benefit for 
> the Piezotone environments.
> Steve M.

Steve, please let me (and everyone else) know your
results, as soon as you have some.  I will be very
interested.

Joel

Joel Pickford wrote:

>
> --- Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> > Not sure what experiences you have had that suggest
> > IPs dither better
> > than SPs either. I'd be interested in more info.
>
> I have heard that SP v.11 allows 6 color hextone B&W
> printing to help overcome the banding problem.  If
> anyone has specific knowledge about this, please post.
> My understanding is that it is not true hextone, but
> merely makes redundant use of two positions repeating
> two of the colors.

Peter Supry told me that it is, in fact, a true hextone (six different 
"strength" inks). It was done not for banding, but to improve smoothness 
and "dotlessness." So they tell me. I suspect that this is more useful 
for printing at 1440 - my prints at 2880 are very smooth. If they got 
any smoother it would just about have to effect sharpness ;-)

Jokes aside, I have no evidence that six grayscale inks make a better 
print than four. But people I trust swear it's true, and ErgoSoft thinks 
enough of the technique to spend the money to support it. Might be 
something to this idea.

>
> > I would suggest a higher humidity then Larry
> > suggested as well, and I
> > usually clean and soak the capping station a few
> > times a week. Also, I
> > found wiping the bottom of the head over windexed
> > paper towel was
> > needed more often than I anticipated.
>
> I have tried some of these techniques at times, but
> your point (and Hogarth's) about maintaining overall
> moisture is well taken.  I am curious to know what
> part of the country you (and also Hogarth) live in.  I
> am guessing you live in the East, Midwest or South,
> where humidity is higher.  I am in Central California,
> which is fairly dry, though not as dry as Arizona or
> New Mexico.

I'm in the SE - NC. My humidity level gets low-ish (around 35%) in both 
winter and summer normally due to HVAC running.. You'd think that this 
level wouldn't warrant a humidifier, but when I added a humidifier my 
clogging problems decreased, and my printing evened out as well. Seems 
that letting the substrates get too dry or too moist changes tonality on 
the final print as well.

Today, it's about 20C outside, and inside my RH is 48%. About as good as 
it gets for printing!
--
Hogarth Hughes

my prints at 2880 are very smooth. If they got 
any smoother it would just about have to effect
sharpness ;-)

Hogarth, do you see any soft vertical banding when
printing at 2880?  I experimented with it once,
creating a linearization in SP v.10, but got I very
soft, subtle, vertical bands.  In response, the guys
at ErgoSoft said that such banding is common with 2880
and that 2880 is just an inherently problematic mode
that almost no one uses.  The Epson tech support guys
said essentially the same thing.  Any insights?

I've never seen it. Then again, I'm using bi-directional printing, which 
"everyone" knows doesn't work either. Sigh....
--
Hogarth Hughes


Joel Pickford wrote:

>
> my prints at 2880 are very smooth. If they got
> any smoother it would just about have to effect
> sharpness ;-)
>
> Hogarth, do you see any soft vertical banding when
> printing at 2880? I experimented with it once,
> creating a linearization in SP v.10, but got I very
> soft, subtle, vertical bands. In response, the guys
> at ErgoSoft said that such banding is common with 2880
> and that 2880 is just an inherently problematic mode
> that almost no one uses. The Epson tech support guys
> said essentially the same thing. Any insights?
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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I just wanted to thank everyone for the many
intelligent and helpful replies I received in response
to my ink clogging dilemna.  I learned a great deal in
the last few days and made some great contacts.

Joel Pickford