Digital BW, The Print

I've worked with a few training books on Photoshop, but I would like to 
find a good one that focuses on B&W work, particularly with Photoshop 
7.  Any recommendations?

Darkroom to Digital (Black and White Photography with Photoshop) by 
Eddie Ephraums is not a technical manual, but a good supplement to such 
a manual.  The author discusses why to use digital and presents his way 
of working with it in Photoshop.  All his photos used in the book are 
toned - duotoned or split toned (still considered b&w?).  A very 
personal, intelligent & artful book for me, but perhaps not to 
everyone' taste.  Not expensive in paperback.  Edward --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nedbuntline2002" 
<ned_buntline@h...> wrote:
> 
> I've worked with a few training books on Photoshop, but I would like 
to 
> find a good one that focuses on B&W work, particularly with Photoshop 
> 7.  Any recommendations?

Steve...for what it's worth, I tried their PK Sharpener demo and liked 
it very much, but can't suggest a workflow on that limited exposure...I 
just invested in a Pro 4000, so buying a copy for longer term testing 
will have to wait a bit, but it's definitely on my wish list...

Steve Smith wrote:

> I have been trying to find suggestion and or a workflow for using photokit
> sharpener and Neat Image noise reduction togather. I print color and black
> and white and would love to hear any suggestions.
>
> --
> Steve Smith
> photosmith@...
> 401-453-1596
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Steve, I use PK Sharpener but rarely use Neat Image any longer so can't give you any helpful tips I don't think (I shoot digitally in RAW and find that with higher ISOs and lower noise I do quite a bit less noise removal).  I would think that perhaps you might like to use masking/layers with NI so that you only use it for selected areas.  Then, of course, using PK Sharpener, particularly with luminosity choices, it will also not 'choose' skies and the like to sharpen.  You also can use masking in the sharpening layers--or choose the sharpening brush to just apply sharpening where needed.  Don't know if that helps, but its how I do it--when I use NI. (I use masking/layers a great deal).

If you aren't sure what I mean, I'll be glad to discuss off list.

Diane
-----------
Diane B. Fields
picnic@...
photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Smith 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:51 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Off topic: photokit and neat image.


  I have been trying to find suggestion and or a workflow for using photokit
  sharpener and Neat Image noise reduction togather. I print color and black
  and white and would love to hear any suggestions.

  --
  Steve Smith
  photosmith@...
  401-453-1596 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been trying to find suggestion and or a workflow for using photokit
sharpener and Neat Image noise reduction togather. I print color and black
and white and would love to hear any suggestions.

--
Steve Smith
photosmith@...
401-453-1596 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>  photokit sharpener and Neat Image

Steve, I've been using PK Sharpner for more than a year mostly for 
color work. It takes some getting use to at first and expands your file 
size apprecialy, but it's a very useful tool. As for Neat Image, I'm on 
a Mac, so I've never used it (stop laughing, Lou).

Here are some links on sharpening workflow and PK-S to check out. They 
are authored by Bruce Fraser (who developed PK-S). The first link 
provides background to the development of PK-S and the second is 
available on the pixelgenius web site as their manual.

http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/20357-1.html

http://www.pixelgenius.com/sharpener/manual.html

FWIW, I don't always use the Inkjet Output Sharpen in PK-S and instead 
opt for Deadman's Sharpeners (Custom Sharpener) for my final sharpening 
pass:

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/links.html

As Diane mentioned, you'll want to consider masking, especially during 
the "creative sharpen" step in your workflow. I do use the sharpening 
brushes, which provide added flexibility, but I do this less so than 
masking because I make mostly landscape images and don't need a lot of 
localized sharpening.

>  noise reduction

For noise reduction, you might consider another Photokit product...
http://www.pixelgenius.com/photokit/index.html

or the action set here called "De-noise Deluxe 1.2"...
http://www.2morrow.dk/75ppi/coolpix/actions/

I use both of these. De-noise Deluxe is a bit of a sledge hammer, but 
you can manage changes as you go and experiment until you've got it 
dialed in. Photokit (different than PK Sharpener) is another useful 
series of action sets. The Noise Reduction set (1, 2 &3) allows you to 
apply changes incrementally but otherwise offers no control beyond 
limiting opacity and fill or using masks. Both PK and De-Noise Deluxe 
have their strengths and shortcoming. Together, they're really nice to 
have.

Good luck!
Mark

I may not have understood your question.  I use PKS as my sharpening tool, so there is no other sharpening (AN AHA!!!! moment here----while writing the second paragraph it just occurred to me that you may be using Photokit and not PKSharpening--so there would be our communication differences).  Nonetheless, I'll go through how I would work through this.

I don't scan but rather shoot in RAW, convert, do all my processing in PS, then I do a Capture and Creative sharpening in PKS, leaving all my sharpening layers intact and save as a .psd file (I generally lower my opacity on the Creative layer---but judge it at 100% pixels while working on it).  Others may do the 'Capture' sharpening before touching the file otherwise.  If I'm printing from QTR things would change about here (a conversion to gray-Lab since PKS won't work except in RGB).  

If I were using NI, I would do that prior to my Capture and Creative sharpening.  This is just me, but I would do my NI from a duplicate image copy, then bring it in and layer it under the NON-NI file and use masks to selectively choose where NI is needed (for my work, its usually shadows only).    Then I would use PK Capture and PK Creative (or, depending upon the image, I may use PK sharpening brushes)--I usually find that I need to lower the opacity of Creative to around 60-70%.  PK Sharpening is done in a number of layers so I use masking where necessary to use sharpening and the amount where I want it (or, as I said, use the sharpening brushes).    I save this file as a .psd file.  When I am ready to print or upload to gallery, I resize and sharpen accordingly in PK Output (again, judging from 100% pixels as to the opacity of the layers).  

BTW--I don't have NI as plugin, but standalone 'cheapie'.  I do so little noise removal--between the RAW converters good handling of it and being able to convert multiple files and use blending AND the low noise/high ISO with curret cameras I don't feel the need of the more 'advanced' versions.

Hope I have this correct--I reread it and think it is LOL.

Diane
-----------
Diane B. Fields
picnic@...
photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Smith 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off topic: photokit and neat image.


  Diane  thanks for your reply I was under the impression that I was going to
  be doing a lot more masking than I did in photo kit alone. A more precise
  question would be how  and when to use these two together at the beginning
  of the work flow. Which one to use first and how to combine neat with the
  capture sharpen. I teach digital photo classes and have a good idea about a
  work flow for digital camera files. I am looking specifically for advise on
  how to use these two with color and black white scans- medium format and
  4x5. 
  * Do you sharpen before PK?
  * Do you turn down smoothing in PK?
  * How do you sharpen after PK and Neat?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diane  thanks for your reply I was under the impression that I was going to
be doing a lot more masking than I did in photo kit alone. A more precise
question would be how  and when to use these two together at the beginning
of the work flow. Which one to use first and how to combine neat with the
capture sharpen. I teach digital photo classes and have a good idea about a
work flow for digital camera files. I am looking specifically for advise on
how to use these two with color and black white scans- medium format and
4x5. 
* Do you sharpen before PK?
* Do you turn down smoothing in PK?
* How do you sharpen after PK and Neat?

BTW I have printed out the Neat Target as well as making targets from
patches of sky. Seems to be working well. But there is a bit of edge
smoothing that I feel is hindering the sharpening that I was able to obtain
before. Lot of  question but I am really interested in both of these
programs.

Thanks

Steve

> Steve, I use PK Sharpener but rarely use Neat Image any longer so can't give
> you any helpful tips I don't think (I shoot digitally in RAW and find that
> with higher ISOs and lower noise I do quite a bit less noise removal).  I
> would think that perhaps you might like to use masking/layers with NI so that
> you only use it for selected areas.  Then, of course, using PK Sharpener,
> particularly with luminosity choices, it will also not 'choose' skies and the
> like to sharpen.  You also can use masking in the sharpening layers--or choose
> the sharpening brush to just apply sharpening where needed.  Don't know if
> that helps, but its how I do it--when I use NI. (I use masking/layers a great
> deal).
> 
> If you aren't sure what I mean, I'll be glad to discuss off list.
> 
> Diane
> -----------
> Diane B. Fields
> picnic@...
> photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Steve Smith
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:51 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Off topic: photokit and neat image.
> 
> 
>   I have been trying to find suggestion and or a workflow for using photokit
>   sharpener and Neat Image noise reduction togather. I print color and black
>   and white and would love to hear any suggestions.
> 
>   --
>   Steve Smith
>   photosmith@...
>   401-453-1596 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND
> „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
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> 
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> 
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--
Steve Smith
photosmith@...
401-453-1596 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What does this have even remotely to do with a book on B&W Photoshop 
use?  I know it's posted as Off Topic, but start another thread with 
this stuff.  I'm looking for some specific help here.

Oh dear.. Have another drink.

> From: nedbuntline2002 <ned_buntline@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:17:01 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: OFF OFF OFF Off topic: photokit and neat image.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this have even remotely to do with a book on B&W Photoshop
> use?  I know it's posted as Off Topic, but start another thread with
> this stuff.  I'm looking for some specific help here.
> 
>

Thanks Diane, very helpful.

> I may not have understood your question.  I use PKS as my sharpening tool, so
> there is no other sharpening (AN AHA!!!! moment here----while writing the
> second paragraph it just occurred to me that you may be using Photokit and not
> PKSharpening--so there would be our communication differences).  Nonetheless,
> I'll go through how I would work through this.
> 
> I don't scan but rather shoot in RAW, convert, do all my processing in PS,
> then I do a Capture and Creative sharpening in PKS, leaving all my sharpening
> layers intact and save as a .psd file (I generally lower my opacity on the
> Creative layer---but judge it at 100% pixels while working on it).  Others may
> do the 'Capture' sharpening before touching the file otherwise.  If I'm
> printing from QTR things would change about here (a conversion to gray-Lab
> since PKS won't work except in RGB).
> 
> If I were using NI, I would do that prior to my Capture and Creative
> sharpening.  This is just me, but I would do my NI from a duplicate image
> copy, then bring it in and layer it under the NON-NI file and use masks to
> selectively choose where NI is needed (for my work, its usually shadows only).
> Then I would use PK Capture and PK Creative (or, depending upon the image, I
> may use PK sharpening brushes)--I usually find that I need to lower the
> opacity of Creative to around 60-70%.  PK Sharpening is done in a number of
> layers so I use masking where necessary to use sharpening and the amount where
> I want it (or, as I said, use the sharpening brushes).    I save this file as
> a .psd file.  When I am ready to print or upload to gallery, I resize and
> sharpen accordingly in PK Output (again, judging from 100% pixels as to the
> opacity of the layers).
> 
> BTW--I don't have NI as plugin, but standalone 'cheapie'.  I do so little
> noise removal--between the RAW converters good handling of it and being able
> to convert multiple files and use blending AND the low noise/high ISO with
> curret cameras I don't feel the need of the more 'advanced' versions.
> 
> Hope I have this correct--I reread it and think it is LOL.
> 
> Diane
> -----------
> Diane B. Fields
> picnic@...
> photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Steve Smith
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:13 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Off topic: photokit and neat image.
> 
> 
>   Diane  thanks for your reply I was under the impression that I was going to
>   be doing a lot more masking than I did in photo kit alone. A more precise
>   question would be how  and when to use these two together at the beginning
>   of the work flow. Which one to use first and how to combine neat with the
>   capture sharpen. I teach digital photo classes and have a good idea about a
>   work flow for digital camera files. I am looking specifically for advise on
>   how to use these two with color and black white scans- medium format and
>   4x5. 
>   * Do you sharpen before PK?
>   * Do you turn down smoothing in PK?
>   * How do you sharpen after PK and Neat?
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND
> „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  
>  ADVERTISEMENT
>  
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> lix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
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> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 


--
Steve Smith
photosmith@...
401-453-1596 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You too few and the Yahoo boys a few too many....  threaded and email forums don't mix 
too well 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:

> Oh dear.. Have another drink.
> 
>

Maybe I don't understand this---the OT IS another thread--maybe I should visit the forum page and see what they did--but certainly they don't have the same thread subject--thus, two different threads.

Ah, Yahoo in its wisdom included the Off topic: Photokit and Neat Image in the same thread--who woulda' thunk THAT!?!

So--if you read it by date  or receive it as email you would be totally unaware of that.  Its certainly NOT the same subject/thread.  We seem to have no control over how they are threading these.  Certainly Steve Smith did start a new topic by using a different subject   LOL.

Diane

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Smith 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 5:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: OFF OFF OFF Off topic: photokit and neat image.


  I would consider sharpening one of the most important elements in any
  workflow and is sadly under represented in any book. Sorry.

  > 
  > What does this have even remotely to do with a book on B&W Photoshop
  > use?  I know it's posted as Off Topic, but start another thread with
  > this stuff.  I'm looking for some specific help here.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would consider sharpening one of the most important elements in any
workflow and is sadly under represented in any book. Sorry.

> 
> What does this have even remotely to do with a book on B&W Photoshop
> use?  I know it's posted as Off Topic, but start another thread with
> this stuff.  I'm looking for some specific help here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND
> ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND ³MODERATORS² OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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--
Steve Smith
photosmith@...
401-453-1596 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mastedward" 
<mastedward@y...> wrote:
> Go to Amazon and get "Digital Black and White Photography: A Step by Step Guide to 
Creating Perfect Photos", by John Beadsworth. I use this book all the time. It is a very good 
"how to" on digital black and white. I also have Eddie Ephraums' book which is a good 
reminder to keep it simple.

Steve

> Darkroom to Digital (Black and White Photography with Photoshop) by 
> Eddie Ephraums is not a technical manual, but a good supplement to such 
> a manual.  The author discusses why to use digital and presents his way 
> of working with it in Photoshop.  All his photos used in the book are 
> toned - duotoned or split toned (still considered b&w?).  A very 
> personal, intelligent & artful book for me, but perhaps not to 
> everyone' taste.  Not expensive in paperback.  Edward --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nedbuntline2002" 
> <ned_buntline@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > I've worked with a few training books on Photoshop, but I would like 
> to 
> > find a good one that focuses on B&W work, particularly with Photoshop 
> > 7.  Any recommendations?

I beleive his name is  BeaRdsworth


Richard

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 00:55:19 -0000, steveh0607 <steveh060758@...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mastedward" 
> <mastedward@y...> wrote:
> > Go to Amazon and get "Digital Black and White Photography: A Step by Step
> Guide to 
> Creating Perfect Photos", by John Beadsworth. I use this book all the time.
> It is a very good 
> "how to" on digital black and white. I also have Eddie Ephraums' book which
> is a good 
> reminder to keep it simple.
> 
> Steve
>

These sound like good books...back to Amazon!

But IMO 75% of the posts on this Forum seem more to suggest education
in NON-technical aspects of B&W, most especially
"pre-visualization"...a skill that's almost never mentioned on digital
forums...there's a blind spot. 

This blind spot is an obstacle to progress when we forget about the
photograph and forgo personal visual skill development and become
obsessed with monitor calibration and soft proofing. 

It probably has to do with the derivative post-card tendencies of the
"fine" photos we see most often online: minds occupied with technique
rather than eyes and heart involved in images. 


---  "Digital Black and White Photography: A Step by Step Guide to 
> Creating Perfect Photos", by John Beadsworth. I use this book all
the time. It is a very good 
> "how to" on digital black and white. I also have Eddie Ephraums'
book which is a good 
> reminder to keep it simple.
>

I agree with you about the amount of personal expression that goes 
into our images we produce, but without the skill (technical) side of 
the equation; I can't produce the image I see in my mind's eye. Often 
I take a picture with an idea of the resulting print and fall short 
of reaching that goal because of my inadequacy of technical skills. 
QTR is removing one of those shortcomings in my skills by allowing 
the resulting print to more resemble the screen image. Now I need to 
learn more about the screen production that shows my idea of the 
resulting image. This requires my learning more of Photoshop and also 
curve production in QTR. Towards those skills, I am looking at an 
inexpensive (?) densitometer that will allow linearization of the 
tonal range that is displayed in the print. Behind all this is the 
desire to express my feelings at the time of exposure, and the reason 
I felt compelled to make the image.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> These sound like good books...back to Amazon!
> 
> But IMO 75% of the posts on this Forum seem more to suggest 
education
> in NON-technical aspects of B&W, most especially
> "pre-visualization"...a skill that's almost never mentioned on 
digital
> forums...there's a blind spot. 
> 
> This blind spot is an obstacle to progress when we forget about the
> photograph and forgo personal visual skill development and become
> obsessed with monitor calibration and soft proofing. 
> 
> It probably has to do with the derivative post-card tendencies of 
the
> "fine" photos we see most often online: minds occupied with 
technique

> rather than eyes and heart involved in images. 
> 
> 
> ---  "Digital Black and White Photography: A Step by Step Guide to 
> > Creating Perfect Photos", by John Beadsworth. I use this book all
> the time. It is a very good 
> > "how to" on digital black and white. I also have Eddie Ephraums'
> book which is a good 
> > reminder to keep it simple.
> >

IF the photog has seen something significant in the world, and IF he
has  previsualized a print, the "screen image" might actually be a
distraction.

I don't want to be distracted by a technology's intermediary vision of
my image. I want to see an image and produce a print with minimal
preoccupation with digital technology, just as I did with fine
darkroom work.

QTRgui is better than most users really understand...it makes fine
image production easy, it almost eliminates the distraction inherent
in technical obsession. 

QTRgui doesn't "allow the resulting print to resemble"...it's a print
engine, not a visualization device.
  
> QTR is removing one of those shortcomings in my skills by allowing 
> the resulting print to more resemble the screen image.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> IF the photog has seen something significant in the world, and IF he
> has  previsualized a print, the "screen image" might actually be a
> distraction.

The only way I can tell what the print will look like, according to 
my previsualization, is to create it on the screen. I am not making 
the screen image look like what the inital file image produced, but 
what I can produce. Then I can produce a resulting print that matches 
my mind's eye image. The closer the screen resembles the finished 
print, the more of the technical will disappear with experience and 
the more of the personal feelings will come through for me. Most of 
my 
photographic images express my feelings or my ideas, and if the 
images stirs some feelings or indeas in the viewer; that's good, but 
not the primary reason I took the picture. It's self-expression for 
me because it's a hobby for me; if it was a commercial job then the 
customer has to be satisfied, not me personally.


> 
> QTRgui doesn't "allow the resulting print to resemble"...it's a 
print
> engine, not a visualization device.
   
And it's ability to reproduce my screen image as I see it allows me 
to render my visualized image more closely.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

It's self-expression for 
> me because it's a hobby for me; if it was a commercial job then the 
> customer has to be satisfied, not me personally. 

I don't think in terms of self-expression, I'm just interested in
making images, hopefully new ones. I don't do commercial work anymore,
used to live by it, and before that was a second-hand student of Minor
White. 

One especially nice thing about commercial work is that one doesn't
need to involve his ego, he can just do the discipline and make
pictures. As a result a person can sometimes accomplish a lot visually. 

I'm not convinced that most people (or I myself) have enough
"internal" stuff to make "self expression" worthwhile.

I don't feel ego should be any part of photography for self-expression. 
It's the complete loss of ego that enables one to express their true 
feelings (self expression) for the moment of revelation that happens on 
rare instances that the photographer is compelled to attempt to express 
it via a photograph. Visual accomplishment doesn't equal self 
achievement; the moment of realizing that this image is important 
because it portrays the equivalent of my feelings at the time. An 
example I'll offer is while photographing at Atalaya (the summer home 
of Archie Huntington) at Huntington Beach in South Carolina, I came 
across a large room that had a single bench that was lit by the sun 
streaming through a large side window. The rest of the room was in ive 
darkness. I had recently gone through the death of my wife and when I 
saw this image, I knew I had to make it. The lonely bench in the large 
room and lit by the light spoke to me just as certainly as if a voice 
had said it. What it said was "Lonely, but never alone" and thankfully 
I had enough technical ability to capture it as I felt it and the 
resulting print also spoke to me. I had to work on the print to enable 
its voice, but the result was good. I feel that most photographers who 
do this as a serious hobby have self-expression as the underlying 
reason. 

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> One especially nice thing about commercial work is that one doesn't
> need to involve his ego, he can just do the discipline and make
> pictures. As a result a person can sometimes accomplish a lot 
visually. 

> 
> I'm not convinced that most people (or I myself) have enough
> "internal" stuff to make "self expression" worthwhile.

I have been a photographer for 35 years and what you
eloquently said is the reason I'm still doing
it.....Bravo.  Francis Ford
--- Johnny Eades <jeades1@...> wrote:
> 
> I don't feel ego should be any part of photography
> for self-expression. 
> It's the complete loss of ego that enables one to
> express their true 
> feelings (self expression) for the moment of
> revelation that happens on 
> rare instances that the photographer is compelled to
> attempt to express 
> it via a photograph. Visual accomplishment doesn't
> equal self 
> achievement; the moment of realizing that this image
> is important 
> because it portrays the equivalent of my feelings at
> the time. An 
> example I'll offer is while photographing at Atalaya
> (the summer home 
> of Archie Huntington) at Huntington Beach in South
> Carolina, I came 
> across a large room that had a single bench that was
> lit by the sun 
> streaming through a large side window. The rest of
> the room was in ive 
> darkness. I had recently gone through the death of
> my wife and when I 
> saw this image, I knew I had to make it. The lonely
> bench in the large 
> room and lit by the light spoke to me just as
> certainly as if a voice 
> had said it. What it said was "Lonely, but never
> alone" and thankfully 
> I had enough technical ability to capture it as I
> felt it and the 
> resulting print also spoke to me. I had to work on
> the print to enable 
> its voice, but the result was good. I feel that most
> photographers who 
> do this as a serious hobby have self-expression as
> the underlying 
> reason. 
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "Djon" 
> <westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > One especially nice thing about commercial work is
> that one doesn't
> > need to involve his ego, he can just do the
> discipline and make
> > pictures. As a result a person can sometimes
> accomplish a lot 
> visually. 
> > 
> > I'm not convinced that most people (or I myself)
> have enough
> > "internal" stuff to make "self expression"
> worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> 


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Simply count the words when we explain our art, photography, or
philosophy. Especially telling is the use of "I." 

Word count, conscious or unconscious, the sure way others measure our
honesty and merit, as opposed to our self delusion, smoke and mirrors.

Visiting a museum one will rarely useful commentary about a photograph
by a photographer.

Edward Weston talked about his his daily life, especially his
excitements, in his Daybooks. He didn't talk about self expression.

John






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Francis Ford
<francisford45@y...> wrote:

> I have been a photographer for 35 years and what you
> eloquently said is the reason I'm still doing
> it.....Bravo.  Francis Ford
> --- Johnny Eades <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > I don't feel ego should be any part of photography
> > for self-expression. 
> > It's the complete loss of ego that enables one to
> > express their true 
> > feelings (self expression) for the moment of
> > revelation that happens on 
> > rare instances that the photographer is compelled to
> > attempt to express 
> > it via a photograph. Visual accomplishment doesn't
> > equal self 
> > achievement; the moment of realizing that this image
> > is important 
> > because it portrays the equivalent of my feelings at
> > the time. An 
> > example I'll offer is while photographing at Atalaya
> > (the summer home 
> > of Archie Huntington) at Huntington Beach in South
> > Carolina, I came 
> > across a large room that had a single bench that was
> > lit by the sun 
> > streaming through a large side window. The rest of
> > the room was in ive 
> > darkness. I had recently gone through the death of
> > my wife and when I 
> > saw this image, I knew I had to make it. The lonely
> > bench in the large 
> > room and lit by the light spoke to me just as
> > certainly as if a voice 
> > had said it. What it said was "Lonely, but never
> > alone" and thankfully 
> > I had enough technical ability to capture it as I
> > felt it and the 
> > resulting print also spoke to me. I had to work on
> > the print to enable 
> > its voice, but the result was good. I feel that most
> > photographers who 
> > do this as a serious hobby have self-expression as
> > the underlying 
> > reason. 
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> > "Djon" 
> > <westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > One especially nice thing about commercial work is
> > that one doesn't
> > > need to involve his ego, he can just do the
> > discipline and make
> > > pictures. As a result a person can sometimes
> > accomplish a lot 
> > visually. 
> > > 
> > > I'm not convinced that most people (or I myself)
> > have enough
> > > "internal" stuff to make "self expression"
> > worthwhile.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Photography when done for personal expression is an art form. If one 
wishes to photograph pretty pictures, then that is where it will 
remain..pretty pictures. And while it is true that many wish 
to "express themselves, or their feelings, that is not what sustains 
art. The (pick a word) emotional response, reaction, relationship of 
an image to personal feelings (the viewers) takes an image from a 
flat plane to a thought process. And the ability to explore themes 
and have the viewer  explore these themes with you (from their point 
of reference), while producing a piece that is beautiful, or 
compelling, that I believe is the aim of the artist. One may need a 
book to talk about form, relationships of images in space, etc, but 
a book cannot teach one to think by looking and creating.

This forum is important to someone like me, a non technical person 
who must move to the new medium to continue to create. And although 
half the things talked about are over my head, my learning curve is 
strng, and many of you have been personally helpful.





In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Simply count the words when we explain our art, photography, or
> philosophy. Especially telling is the use of "I." 
> 
> Word count, conscious or unconscious, the sure way others measure 
our
> honesty and merit, as opposed to our self delusion, smoke and 
mirrors.
> 
> Visiting a museum one will rarely useful commentary about a 
photograph

> by a photographer.
> 
> Edward Weston talked about his his daily life, especially his
> excitements, in his Daybooks. He didn't talk about self expression.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Francis Ford
> <francisford45@y...> wrote:
> > I have been a photographer for 35 years and what you
> > eloquently said is the reason I'm still doing
> > it.....Bravo.  Francis Ford
> > --- Johnny Eades <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I don't feel ego should be any part of photography
> > > for self-expression. 
> > > It's the complete loss of ego that enables one to
> > > express their true 
> > > feelings (self expression) for the moment of
> > > revelation that happens on 
> > > rare instances that the photographer is compelled to
> > > attempt to express 
> > > it via a photograph. Visual accomplishment doesn't
> > > equal self 
> > > achievement; the moment of realizing that this image
> > > is important 
> > > because it portrays the equivalent of my feelings at
> > > the time. An 
> > > example I'll offer is while photographing at Atalaya
> > > (the summer home 
> > > of Archie Huntington) at Huntington Beach in South
> > > Carolina, I came 
> > > across a large room that had a single bench that was
> > > lit by the sun 
> > > streaming through a large side window. The rest of
> > > the room was in ive 
> > > darkness. I had recently gone through the death of
> > > my wife and when I 
> > > saw this image, I knew I had to make it. The lonely
> > > bench in the large 
> > > room and lit by the light spoke to me just as
> > > certainly as if a voice 
> > > had said it. What it said was "Lonely, but never
> > > alone" and thankfully 
> > > I had enough technical ability to capture it as I
> > > felt it and the 
> > > resulting print also spoke to me. I had to work on
> > > the print to enable 
> > > its voice, but the result was good. I feel that most
> > > photographers who 
> > > do this as a serious hobby have self-expression as
> > > the underlying 
> > > reason. 
> > > 
> > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > 
> > > Johnny
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > "Djon" 
> > > <westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > One especially nice thing about commercial work is
> > > that one doesn't
> > > > need to involve his ego, he can just do the
> > > discipline and make
> > > > pictures. As a result a person can sometimes
> > > accomplish a lot 
> > > visually. 
> > > > 
> > > > I'm not convinced that most people (or I myself)
> > > have enough
> > > > "internal" stuff to make "self expression"
> > > worthwhile.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 		
> > __________________________________ 
> > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

-

Djon,

Why do you photograph? Can you answer without using "I" statements or 
explaining without using feelings?

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Simply count the words when we explain our art, photography, or
> philosophy. Especially telling is the use of "I." 
> 
> Word count, conscious or unconscious, the sure way others measure 
our
> honesty and merit, as opposed to our self delusion, smoke and 
mirrors.
> 
> Visiting a museum one will rarely useful commentary about a 
photograph

> by a photographer.
> 
> Edward Weston talked about his his daily life, especially his
> excitements, in his Daybooks. He didn't talk about self expression.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
>/

Hello --

Sorry for this redundant posting, but I couldn't find anything
searching the archives.

A month or so ago someone posted a link to a company that had a
software product (Photoshop plug-in, I think) that would alter a photo
to print out what looked like a multi-layer 3-d mat around the picture.

It was very realistic with shadows, corner lines, etc. (much more
sophisticated than the "matting" tutorials on-line).

I've since lost the link.

Does anyone know the URL for the company that makes this?


Thanks,

-=-Dennis











.