Digital BW, The Print

Michael...

Uhhh..hum....How much is that RIP you mention gonna cost someone?  

Now compare that to the few hundred dollars for the Piezo plugin.  

How do they compare? 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael J. Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 9:44 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have an Advantage? was FS


  Steadman,

  Of course not being argumantative, I would like to explain to you 
  that Professional RIP's that cost in the same range as the Piezo RIP 
  in many cases come with a huge number of canned profiles just as 
  Piezo does.

  For example, the ImagePrint 4.0 software comes with over 30 ink/paper 
  combinations and is growing every day.

  You are correct that Profiling can cost around $100 / paper/ink 
  combination. If you use 30 papers that can become expensive. BUT, 
  assuming that at any one time you will be using 4-5 papers, I really 
  don't see this as a major problem. Not for the professional, and 
  these RIP's are geared toward the professional.

  The point being, when a new paper comes out and we want it, we must 
  wait for IJM to profile it and publish it. If they were to use ICC 
  profiles instead of their proprietary ICQ profiles, you could have a 
  profile within a day or two at a reasonable cost.

  Believe me, I am a big fan of the Piezography software. We are not 
  debating the merits of Piezo vs. Wausatch vs. Best, vs. Image Print 
  4.0. I am only suggesting that a bit of flexibility would be a 
  positive for the professional user and IJM atthe same time.

  Have you ever seen the layout options afforded by the professional 
  RIP's? In reading the ImagePrint brochure for example, you can use 
  their RIP to print Quadtone images and RGB images on different 
  printers at the same time. That is flexability!  If there is an 
  inkset that comes out, you just profile it and the RIP will handle 
  it. That is flexibility.

  In the world of digital photography, things change so fast, that 
  flexibility comes in very handy.

  Mike


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman - for a 7000 the Piezo Rip is more than  a few dollars. Mike only
uses a 7000.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have
an Advantage? was FS


> Michael...
>
> Uhhh..hum....How much is that RIP you mention gonna cost someone?
>
> Now compare that to the few hundred dollars for the Piezo plugin.
>
> How do they compare?
>
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Michael J. Kravit
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 9:44 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have
an Advantage? was FS
>
>
>   Steadman,
>
>   Of course not being argumantative, I would like to explain to you
>   that Professional RIP's that cost in the same range as the Piezo RIP
>   in many cases come with a huge number of canned profiles just as
>   Piezo does.
>
>   For example, the ImagePrint 4.0 software comes with over 30 ink/paper
>   combinations and is growing every day.
>
>   You are correct that Profiling can cost around $100 / paper/ink
>   combination. If you use 30 papers that can become expensive. BUT,
>   assuming that at any one time you will be using 4-5 papers, I really
>   don't see this as a major problem. Not for the professional, and
>   these RIP's are geared toward the professional.
>
>   The point being, when a new paper comes out and we want it, we must
>   wait for IJM to profile it and publish it. If they were to use ICC
>   profiles instead of their proprietary ICQ profiles, you could have a
>   profile within a day or two at a reasonable cost.
>
>   Believe me, I am a big fan of the Piezography software. We are not
>   debating the merits of Piezo vs. Wausatch vs. Best, vs. Image Print
>   4.0. I am only suggesting that a bit of flexibility would be a
>   positive for the professional user and IJM atthe same time.
>
>   Have you ever seen the layout options afforded by the professional
>   RIP's? In reading the ImagePrint brochure for example, you can use
>   their RIP to print Quadtone images and RGB images on different
>   printers at the same time. That is flexability!  If there is an
>   inkset that comes out, you just profile it and the RIP will handle
>   it. That is flexibility.
>
>   In the world of digital photography, things change so fast, that
>   flexibility comes in very handy.
>
>   Mike
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Steadman,

I am not comparing the Piezo "Plug-in" to the Pro RIP's, my point was 
that the Piezo RIP is $2150, the Wausatch RIP for the 7000 is $995, 
and the ImagePrint 4 RIP is $1595. They both support Quadtone 
inksets, a large variety of papers, and printers, and they both 
support color inksets. So you can use the same RIP on several 
printers with different inksets. 

If you want to compare the Plug-in, then that is a completely 
different animal.... ;-)

Hope this explains a bit better what I am referring to.

Have a great weekend,
Mike

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Steadman - for a 7000 the Piezo Rip is more than  a few dollars. 
Mike only uses a 7000.<

Julian,

I also have a 1280, but that printer has color piggies loaded with 
the NMC CIS. I do so little color printing that I still can't get a 
decent color balance out of that printer. The quaslity is 
exceptional, but my skills in color correction are at best 
marginal. ;-(

Have a nice day.

Mike

I always say that I do BW because that is what I see - but they idea of
colour PS and printing scares the hell out of me!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael J. Kravit" <mkravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 3:43 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have an
Advantage? was FS


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > Steadman - for a 7000 the Piezo Rip is more than  a few dollars.
> Mike only uses a 7000.<
>
> Julian,
>
> I also have a 1280, but that printer has color piggies loaded with
> the NMC CIS. I do so little color printing that I still can't get a
> decent color balance out of that printer. The quaslity is
> exceptional, but my skills in color correction are at best
> marginal. ;-(
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> I always say that I do BW because that is what I see - but they idea of
> colour PS and printing scares the hell out of me!
>
> Julian

I also do almost exclusively B&W, I think I've done two color prints in a
year!  I leave color (what little I do, mostly happy snaps) to the outside
labs.  I have seen some GREAT color inkjet prints though, so I know it can
be done...but I really prefer B&W, and always have.  There's more "art" and
"soul" in a B&W print than color...something about it being different than
reality?  Someday that may change though...

Julian, 

I know that Mike uses a 7000 (lucky guy).    

But..most of the people on this list use low cost desktop printers.  As I recall this thread began with a discussion of profiles and Piezo as a low cost and economical solution....not really a discussion of 7000 printers or the cost of 7000 software.  

Given that the PiezoBW plugin (using a printer which may cost as low as $99) easily delivers results that compare (indeed may not be differentiated from) the prints off of machines which may cost thousands of dollars (7000 or others)....

I still maintain that the PiezoBW software (with included 30 profiles) is a great bargain.  

If someone wants to spend $6000 on a printer and a RIP....that is fine.  (grin)

IF someone wants to get similar results (prints) and only has a few hundred dollars, I recommend Piezo. 

At least that is how I see it.  (wink)

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julian Thomas 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 4:56 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have an Advantage? was FS


  Steadman - for a 7000 the Piezo Rip is more than  a few dollars. Mike only
  uses a 7000.

  Julian
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have
  an Advantage? was FS


  > Michael...
  >
  > Uhhh..hum....How much is that RIP you mention gonna cost someone?
  >
  > Now compare that to the few hundred dollars for the Piezo plugin.
  >
  > How do they compare?
  >
  > Steadman
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: Michael J. Kravit
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 9:44 PM
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have
  an Advantage? was FS
  >
  >
  >   Steadman,
  >
  >   Of course not being argumantative, I would like to explain to you
  >   that Professional RIP's that cost in the same range as the Piezo RIP
  >   in many cases come with a huge number of canned profiles just as
  >   Piezo does.
  >
  >   For example, the ImagePrint 4.0 software comes with over 30 ink/paper
  >   combinations and is growing every day.
  >
  >   You are correct that Profiling can cost around $100 / paper/ink
  >   combination. If you use 30 papers that can become expensive. BUT,
  >   assuming that at any one time you will be using 4-5 papers, I really
  >   don't see this as a major problem. Not for the professional, and
  >   these RIP's are geared toward the professional.
  >
  >   The point being, when a new paper comes out and we want it, we must
  >   wait for IJM to profile it and publish it. If they were to use ICC
  >   profiles instead of their proprietary ICQ profiles, you could have a
  >   profile within a day or two at a reasonable cost.
  >
  >   Believe me, I am a big fan of the Piezography software. We are not
  >   debating the merits of Piezo vs. Wausatch vs. Best, vs. Image Print
  >   4.0. I am only suggesting that a bit of flexibility would be a
  >   positive for the professional user and IJM atthe same time.
  >
  >   Have you ever seen the layout options afforded by the professional
  >   RIP's? In reading the ImagePrint brochure for example, you can use
  >   their RIP to print Quadtone images and RGB images on different
  >   printers at the same time. That is flexability!  If there is an
  >   inkset that comes out, you just profile it and the RIP will handle
  >   it. That is flexibility.
  >
  >   In the world of digital photography, things change so fast, that
  >   flexibility comes in very handy.
  >
  >   Mike
  >
  >
  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  >               ADVERTISEMENT
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   - Include your full name with your message.
  >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
  keep them short.
  >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
  header.
  >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  "flames."
  >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
  them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >
  >


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well Mike... 

We are coming from different perspectives.  I use 1160s and you use a 7000. 

Thanks for the pricing on the RIPS.  If I buy a 7000 (or next gen) then I will look into those.  

I still think that the PiezoBW Plugin is a great "deal" when compared to the alternatives (which cost substantially more) if the user wants a solution based on a low cost desktop printer.  And since the plugin supports so many different printers and papers now, it does have a good bit of flexibility....at least that is how I see it.    

Regards, 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael J. Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 8:28 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have an Advantage? was FS


  Steadman,

  I am not comparing the Piezo "Plug-in" to the Pro RIP's, my point was 
  that the Piezo RIP is $2150, the Wausatch RIP for the 7000 is $995, 
  and the ImagePrint 4 RIP is $1595. They both support Quadtone 
  inksets, a large variety of papers, and printers, and they both 
  support color inksets. So you can use the same RIP on several 
  printers with different inksets. 

  If you want to compare the Plug-in, then that is a completely 
  different animal.... ;-)

  Hope this explains a bit better what I am referring to.

  Have a great weekend,
  Mike




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The piezo box for desktop is the best way to go I agree. After you've
purchased the kit there are now other inks to use - but the piezo is the
only system that offers something like a RIP for desktop. As Martin said -
even  buying the software and chucking the inks is cheap!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have
an Advantage? was FS


> Julian,
>
> I know that Mike uses a 7000 (lucky guy).
>
> But..most of the people on this list use low cost desktop printers.  As I
recall this thread began with a discussion of profiles and Piezo as a low
cost and economical solution....not really a discussion of 7000 printers or
the cost of 7000 software.
>
> Given that the PiezoBW plugin (using a printer which may cost as low as
$99) easily delivers results that compare (indeed may not be differentiated
from) the prints off of machines which may cost thousands of dollars (7000
or others)....
>
> I still maintain that the PiezoBW software (with included 30 profiles) is
a great bargain.
>
> If someone wants to spend $6000 on a printer and a RIP....that is fine.
(grin)
>
> IF someone wants to get similar results (prints) and only has a few
hundred dollars, I recommend Piezo.
>
> At least that is how I see it.  (wink)
>
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Julian Thomas
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 4:56 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo
have an Advantage? was FS
>
>
>   Steadman - for a 7000 the Piezo Rip is more than  a few dollars. Mike
only
>   uses a 7000.
>
>   Julian
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
>   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>   Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:59 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo
have
>   an Advantage? was FS
>
>
>   > Michael...
>   >
>   > Uhhh..hum....How much is that RIP you mention gonna cost someone?
>   >
>   > Now compare that to the few hundred dollars for the Piezo plugin.
>   >
>   > How do they compare?
>   >
>   > Steadman
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Michael J. Kravit
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 9:44 PM
>   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo
have
>   an Advantage? was FS
>   >
>   >
>   >   Steadman,
>   >
>   >   Of course not being argumantative, I would like to explain to you
>   >   that Professional RIP's that cost in the same range as the Piezo RIP
>   >   in many cases come with a huge number of canned profiles just as
>   >   Piezo does.
>   >
>   >   For example, the ImagePrint 4.0 software comes with over 30
ink/paper
>   >   combinations and is growing every day.
>   >
>   >   You are correct that Profiling can cost around $100 / paper/ink
>   >   combination. If you use 30 papers that can become expensive. BUT,
>   >   assuming that at any one time you will be using 4-5 papers, I really
>   >   don't see this as a major problem. Not for the professional, and
>   >   these RIP's are geared toward the professional.
>   >
>   >   The point being, when a new paper comes out and we want it, we must
>   >   wait for IJM to profile it and publish it. If they were to use ICC
>   >   profiles instead of their proprietary ICQ profiles, you could have a
>   >   profile within a day or two at a reasonable cost.
>   >
>   >   Believe me, I am a big fan of the Piezography software. We are not
>   >   debating the merits of Piezo vs. Wausatch vs. Best, vs. Image Print
>   >   4.0. I am only suggesting that a bit of flexibility would be a
>   >   positive for the professional user and IJM atthe same time.
>   >
>   >   Have you ever seen the layout options afforded by the professional
>   >   RIP's? In reading the ImagePrint brochure for example, you can use
>   >   their RIP to print Quadtone images and RGB images on different
>   >   printers at the same time. That is flexability!  If there is an
>   >   inkset that comes out, you just profile it and the RIP will handle
>   >   it. That is flexibility.
>   >
>   >   In the world of digital photography, things change so fast, that
>   >   flexibility comes in very handy.
>   >
>   >   Mike
>   >
>   >
>   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   >               ADVERTISEMENT
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   - Include your full name with your message.
>   >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to
>   keep them short.
>   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>   header.
>   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>   "flames."
>   >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
>   resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   > - Include your full name with your message.
>   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
>   them short.
>   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
>   resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   >
>   >
>   >
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin, 

I think you make very good points in your post below and I completely agree with most of them.  

I also understand the difference between the profiles.  Color profiles are easy to get.  Grayscale profiles are next to impossible.  Another reason why I think the 30 or so profiles included with Piezo are a great deal. 

I think you got my point (which was made by rhetorical questions) about the cost difference in Do it Yourself Profiling versus Piezo Profiles. 

With Kind Regards,  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Martin Wesley 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 9:38 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does Piezo have an Advantage? was FS


  Steadman,

  Actually I don't believe you can order a grayscale printer profile 
  from a color management company. (If I am wrong, someone please let 
  me know where.) As always B&W is more difficult. If is not just a 
  profile you need but the separation curves are necessary to get the 
  right inks into the right tonal ranges.

  It is my understanding that none of the current profiling software 
  packages will create a usable printer profile for a grayscale ink 
  set. Profiler Pro will create a monitor profile of a grayscale ink 
  set but not a useable profile.

  Another point. You can buy just the Piezo software. Just order a 
  Piezo kit for an 1160, toss the cartridges, if you are not interested 
  in the Piezo ink, and use the printer and inks of your choice. It is 
  still one of the best bargains around and well worth the price. A 
  good monitor calibration package will cost you $200 to $400. I don't 
  see a big deal in paying $335 to get into Piezo.

  I am very happy that there are now alternative inks to go with this 
  driver. That just broadens the choices for the end users which is 
  best for all concerned.

  Martin

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
  <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
  > Michael...
  > 
  > You mention below that  "you can have almost any profiling 
  > service profile your inks and papers as printed on YOUR 
  printer ..." 
  > 
  > Yep you could. But at what expense?  
  > 
  > Consider that Piezo software comes with professionally made 
  profiles for about 30 papers or so.  
  > 
  > How much would that cost if done separately or through a profiling 
  service?  
  > 
  > Venture to guess? 
  > 
  > And are they Grayscale profiles for quadtones or profiles for color 
  inks? 
  > 
  > And what about the hassles of printing the targets and sending them 
  to the profiling service and the time and expense of actually 
  shipping them and the time wasted waiting for them to return...etc...
  > 
  > And what about low cost future additions to the profile list?  How 
  much would that cost from the hypothetical profiling service?  
  > 
  > I think the profiles included with the Piezo system are the best 
  bargain on the market for accurate and working and effective 
  printing...assuming you want professional results.  
  > 
  > Of course someone may want to do their own profiles and buy their 
  own software and other hardware tools needed to do so.  I sure 
  don't.  I don't have the time. 
  > 
  > I like the fact that the profiles for Piezo are so....easy...and 
  relatively cheap.   Yup...easy, inexpensive, effective,  and 
  they "came in the box."  
  > 
  > Steadman
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Michael J. Kravit 
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
  >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:50 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
  > 
  > 
  >   "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
  >   ...BTW FS really is pretty close to ppiezo inks, slightly cooler, 
  and 
  >   you need to do a slight curve action to reduce contrast on files 
  done 
  >   for piezo inks, but once you have the monitor working space set 
  up it 
  >   is plug n play."
  > 
  >   Actually from testing done by a number of well placed experts 
  (sound 
  >   like a political spin) the MIS FS inks print with a 1 stop 
  density 
  >   loss using the Piezo Driver and a 1-1/2 stop loss in contrast.
  > 
  >   This should be easily fixable either in the ink formulation or as 
  you 
  >   suggest in using an adjustment curve.
  > 
  >   When working on new files I find this to not be an issue. But 
  when 
  >   printing old files that were created for Piezo, the density loss 
  >   becomes evident so I have to create a second file to print with 
  the 
  >   MIS FS inks.
  > 
  >   A commercial RIP that has ICC/ICM profiles for papers and inks 
  should 
  >   take away this problem. That is the biggest difference between a 
  >   professional RIP and the Piezo system. With the Piezography 
  system 
  >   you are dependent on IJM to profile your papers and provide you 
  with 
  >   the profiles. On an open RIP, you can have almost any profiling 
  >   service profile your inks and papers as printed on YOUR printer 
  and 
  >   get accurate profiles.
  > 
  >   The plug and play aspect of the Piezo system is really very 
  >   convenient and a big plus. Right now the Pro version of the Piezo 
  RIP 
  >   had new profiles for almost everyone of the newest papers on the 
  >   market. I suspect that Cone will make them available for the Pulg-
  In 
  >   versions of the software very shortly.
  > 
  >   Mike
  > 
  > 
  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
  >               ADVERTISEMENT
  >              
  >        
  >        
  > 
  >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
  Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
  is at:
  > 
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > 
  >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   - Include your full name with your message.
  >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
  messages to keep them short.
  >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
  header.
  >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
  or "flames."
  >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
  various resources on the homepage. 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
  Service. 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been considering this very issue since I have just purchased a Epson
7000 but, in all fairness the Piezo comes with set of inks and flushing
carts. This would make the cost closer to $1550.00 after deducting $600 for
the extra materials. The folks at ImagePrint told me that they have only
created a profile for Cone inks and two papers.

Wendel

> Steadman,
>
> I am not comparing the Piezo "Plug-in" to the Pro RIP's, my point was
> that the Piezo RIP is $2150, the Wausatch RIP for the 7000 is $995,
> and the ImagePrint 4 RIP is $1595. They both support Quadtone
> inksets, a large variety of papers, and printers, and they both
> support color inksets. So you can use the same RIP on several
> printers with different inksets.
>

> I also have a 1280, but that printer has color piggies loaded with
> the NMC CIS. I do so little color printing that I still can't get a
> decent color balance out of that printer. The quaslity is
> exceptional, but my skills in color correction are at best
> marginal. ;-(

Mike 

Is that a function of poor color correcting skills, or poor profiles?
Without a good printer profile you'll be banging your head against the wall
trying to get good prints.

Regarding other-than-Piezo RIPS/profiles for BW, I don't believe a RIP and
profiles will do the ink separations that are necessary for smooth, dot
free, BW printing. Have you considered how you will create your ink
separation curves?

I'm curious what has you go the RIP route as opposed to just using the Epson
driver, which has a pretty nice dither of it's own? Is it so you can script
CMYK separation curves, giving you better control over your blacks?

Just to be clear, I'm asking to learn, not suggesting I know anything you
don't. :-)

Todd

Martin,
Do all the drivers come on the same CD (\ufffdfor the 1280 for instance)? I
remember this being discussed but I can't remember if this is the case.
Thanks
Peter Lindman

> Another point. You can buy just the Piezo software. Just order a
> Piezo kit for an 1160, toss the cartridges, if you are not interested
> in the Piezo ink, and use the printer and inks of your choice. It is
> still one of the best bargains around and well worth the price. A
> good monitor calibration package will cost you $200 to $400. I don't
> see a big deal in paying $335 to get into Piezo.
>

Steadman,

Just so you know, I agree 100%. ;-)

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> Julian, 
> 
> I know that Mike uses a 7000 (lucky guy).    
> 
> But..most of the people on this list use low cost desktop 
printers.  As I recall this thread began with a discussion of 
profiles and Piezo as a low cost and economical solution....not 
really a discussion of 7000 printers or the cost of 7000 software.  
> 
> Given that the PiezoBW plugin (using a printer which may cost as 
low as $99) easily delivers results that compare (indeed may not be 
differentiated from) the prints off of machines which may cost 
thousands of dollars (7000 or others)....
> 
> I still maintain that the PiezoBW software (with included 30 
profiles) is a great bargain.  
> 
> If someone wants to spend $6000 on a printer and a RIP....that is 
fine.  (grin)
> 
> IF someone wants to get similar results (prints) and only has a few 
hundred dollars, I recommend Piezo. 
> 
> At least that is how I see it.  (wink)
> 
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Julian Thomas 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 4:56 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does 
Piezo have an Advantage? was FS
> 
> 
>   Steadman - for a 7000 the Piezo Rip is more than  a few dollars. 
Mike only
>   uses a 7000.
> 
>   Julian
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
>   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
>   Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:59 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does 
Piezo have
>   an Advantage? was FS
> 
> 
>   > Michael...
>   >
>   > Uhhh..hum....How much is that RIP you mention gonna cost 
someone?
>   >
>   > Now compare that to the few hundred dollars for the Piezo 
plugin.
>   >
>   > How do they compare?
>   >
>   > Steadman
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Michael J. Kravit
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 9:44 PM
>   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Profiles: Are they valuable? Does 
Piezo have
>   an Advantage? was FS
>   >
>   >
>   >   Steadman,
>   >
>   >   Of course not being argumantative, I would like to explain to 
you
>   >   that Professional RIP's that cost in the same range as the 
Piezo RIP
>   >   in many cases come with a huge number of canned profiles just 
as
>   >   Piezo does.
>   >
>   >   For example, the ImagePrint 4.0 software comes with over 30 
ink/paper
>   >   combinations and is growing every day.
>   >
>   >   You are correct that Profiling can cost around $100 / 
paper/ink
>   >   combination. If you use 30 papers that can become expensive. 
BUT,
>   >   assuming that at any one time you will be using 4-5 papers, I 
really
>   >   don't see this as a major problem. Not for the professional, 
and
>   >   these RIP's are geared toward the professional.
>   >
>   >   The point being, when a new paper comes out and we want it, 
we must
>   >   wait for IJM to profile it and publish it. If they were to 
use ICC
>   >   profiles instead of their proprietary ICQ profiles, you could 
have a
>   >   profile within a day or two at a reasonable cost.
>   >
>   >   Believe me, I am a big fan of the Piezography software. We 
are not
>   >   debating the merits of Piezo vs. Wausatch vs. Best, vs. Image 
Print
>   >   4.0. I am only suggesting that a bit of flexibility would be a
>   >   positive for the professional user and IJM atthe same time.
>   >
>   >   Have you ever seen the layout options afforded by the 
professional
>   >   RIP's? In reading the ImagePrint brochure for example, you 
can use
>   >   their RIP to print Quadtone images and RGB images on different
>   >   printers at the same time. That is flexability!  If there is 
an
>   >   inkset that comes out, you just profile it and the RIP will 
handle
>   >   it. That is flexibility.
>   >
>   >   In the world of digital photography, things change so fast, 
that
>   >   flexibility comes in very handy.
>   >
>   >   Mike
>   >
>   >
>   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   >               ADVERTISEMENT
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   - Include your full name with your message.
>   >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to
>   keep them short.
>   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject
>   header.
>   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or
>   "flames."
>   >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the various
>   resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   > - Include your full name with your message.
>   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
>   them short.
>   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
>   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the various
>   resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   >
>   >
>   >
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Todd,

I hate to admit it but the poor result printing color is nothing more 
than a lack of skill and understanding on my part.

As for the RIP, hey, I am always willing to check out new software in 
search of a better mousetrap. Honestly though, I am considering the 
RIP for my office. We do lots of color presentations for clients. We 
photograph an existing building, manipulate it to show the before and 
after versions and print 24"x36" presentations. The RIP is for that 
kind of stuff. The fact that they print grayscale inksets is a plus 
and more of an odditiy for me at this point.

I use the Piezo RIP for my serious B/W printing.

Mike

on 12/2/01 6:19 PM, Michael J. Kravit wrote:

> Todd,
> 
> I hate to admit it but the poor result printing color is nothing more
> than a lack of skill and understanding on my part.
> 
> As for the RIP, hey, I am always willing to check out new software in
> search of a better mousetrap. Honestly though, I am considering the
> RIP for my office. We do lots of color presentations for clients. We
> photograph an existing building, manipulate it to show the before and
> after versions and print 24"x36" presentations. The RIP is for that
> kind of stuff. The fact that they print grayscale inksets is a plus
> and more of an odditiy for me at this point.
> 
> I use the Piezo RIP for my serious B/W printing.

Mike

Having seen your BW work in the most recent exchange, I know when you DO say
your color prints are good, you'll mean it.

I wanna be like Mike. ;-)

Todd

Todd,

I dunno about color. 

It really frustrates me! 

One of these days I will have to take a workshop with someone who 
really knows their stuff. But, for most of what we do in my office, 
out color work is not photographic, but artistic rendering style.

Thanks
Mike

> One of these days I will have to take a workshop with someone who
> really knows their stuff. But, for most of what we do in my office,
> out color work is not photographic, but artistic rendering style.


I already mentioned Dan Margulis once on this list today, but his workshop
is supposed to be where the pre-press shops send their people. When you hear
people speak of correcting by-the-numbers, he popularized it. It sounds like
a long three days (long hours) and costs $1500, so it'd better be good.
Better get work to pay for it too. ;-)

Todd

Hi Austin-
I always used to feel that way about B/W- until I went to a few open studios
in Fort Point Channel and saw the absolutely gorgeous, abstracted color
images some of the photographers there are producing.  But I still haven't
ventured into color- the temptation to get sucked in by all that color
"reality" scares me too!

Bill

on 12/2/01 9:54 AM, Austin Franklin wrote:

> I always say that I do BW because that is what I see - but they idea of
> colour PS and printing scares the hell out of me!
>
> Julian

...There's more "art" and "soul" in a B&W print than color...something about
it being different than
reality?  Someday that may change though...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]