Digital BW, The Print

>If I were MIS I would be trying to  invent a new ink set that
is better than
>the K3s....
> 
>I'm sure they are,  bug it takes a huge R&D budget to do
that, so  Epson is 
>hard to beat.

MIS and others don't develop their own ink. They buy it from
one of the very few manufactures of ink. There's probably less
than a dozen major ones. They're the ones with the r&d budget.
It wouldn't suprise me if the inks are all comming from the
same place.

Regards, Walt

http://www.kauaiphotos.biz

What that says is that the economics of ink development are so poor as to
not entice real competition.  While I believe that the cloners are
undoubtedly  a huge factor in reducing the economics and hence reducing the
returns to innovation, I doubt this fully describes the situation but rather
suspect that innovation in ink development is still entwined too heavily
with hardware innovation.  What we need is some newcomers on the block with
real innovation in ink design and hardware independent solutions.  With good
cartridge manufacturers the latter can be outsourced.  The former requires
some good old scientific innovation.  Or have the cloners deprived us of
incentives for such chemists to bang their heads together?

That hits the  nail on the head, but it much easier said than done. Epson 
started out with a pile of cash from Seiko's decades of profits from quartz 
watches and the micro chip development lab that went along with it. They 
simply stumbled into dominating photography. It was never planned in the 
beginning.  I started out back when Photoshop 4 was still the standard using 
their Photo Stylus 7000. It used imperment inks of course but I was printing 
super nice drum scanned photographs on the Hahnemuhle German etching 
paper that Lumijet was starting to sell. They looked so close to Iris prints that it 
was scary.

I don't think Epson had any idea what they were about to do with that little 
office printer that happened to print great photographs. 

What Epson has that others don't is a huge advertising budget, a global 
infastructure for manufacturing and long term electronics investments and 
associations. None of that is easy for a start up to come by, even one with 
cash. It seems to me that it would take a huge established company like 
Cannon or Sony or HP to produce real competition. I just don't see it 
happening immediately because of the lead Epson has. But we can all dream 
of it. HP has been nothing but a giant disappointment. It reminds me of the 
analogy of GM and Toyota. 

But like you say, as long as Epson controlls the next generation of printers 
they will always have everyone else off balance. I keep thinking that sooner or 
later all these differnt inksets will become too costly to produce and store on 
such a huge scale and they will have to slow down. But so far that hasn't been 
the case. The one thing they can't stop us from doing is using their older 
printers with other inksets and I for one will continue to do just that.

John




  What we need is some newcomers on the block with
> real innovation in ink design and hardware independent solutions.  With 
good

> cartridge manufacturers the latter can be outsourced.  The former requires
> some good old scientific innovation.  Or have the cloners deprived us of
> incentives for such chemists to bang their heads together?

> The one thing they can't stop us from doing is using their older 
> printers with other inksets and I for one will continue to do just 
that.
> 
> John


They keep trying. Ink chips, and special carts play a role in that 
defense. If they wanted to make their new printers third party 
friendly, they would have used pumps for the ink, instead of 
pressurized carts. Remember the way Encad used to supply inks, and a 
few other high end machines. Bottle feeds give too many options, and 
not enough profits.

And BTW, MIS buys many of their inks from Image Specialists. They also 
claim to make some of their inks, but no one I have talked to really 
knows which ones. I suspect that they are mixing the UT inks in house, 
and maybe some of the dye inks, but it is purely speculation.

Seiko (Epson, Mamiya, Seiko watches) is derived from the name of the
founder, Sekei Mamiya.  

Watches were a cash cow, but not before cameras.

Few technical breakthroughs (eg digital photography) have been
"planned in the beginning." 

 "enlightenment favors the prepared mind" ...Sekei Mamiya was deep
into photography at the end of WWII, if not before, and his company
produced better-designed rollfilm cameras than did Zeiss. Today it
leads absolutely everyone in digital MF cameras. 

The company's involvement with photography was no accident and didn't
depend on watches, though they surely are a goldmine.

Djon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> That hits the  nail on the head, but it much easier said than done.
Epson 
> started out with a pile of cash from Seiko's decades of profits from
quartz 
> watches and the micro chip development lab that went along with it.
They 
> simply stumbled into dominating photography. It was never planned in
the 
> beginning.

While your overall complaint is probably correct, I can well imagine that the pressurized carts and chips are actually done to keep the cost of the printers down.  It has to be cheaper/easier to pressurize all the carts with the air from a single pump than putting in individual pumps for each ink.  The chips are certainly the easiest way to know when the ink supply is about to run out.  This may be critical to avoiding damage to the head.
 
Tom Baker

dfaprinting <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
> The one thing they can't stop us from doing is using their older 
> printers with other inksets and I for one will continue to do just 
that.
> 
> John


They keep trying. Ink chips, and special carts play a role in that 
defense. If they wanted to make their new printers third party 
friendly, they would have used pumps for the ink, instead of 
pressurized carts. Remember the way Encad used to supply inks, and a 
few other high end machines. Bottle feeds give too many options, and 
not enough profits.

And BTW, MIS buys many of their inks from Image Specialists. They also 
claim to make some of their inks, but no one I have talked to really 
knows which ones. I suspect that they are mixing the UT inks in house, 
and maybe some of the dye inks, but it is purely speculation.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A newbie question here.

With the new 2400, how long will Epson likely continue to produce UC
carts for the 2200?

And are there credible alternatives (quality) to Epson's 2200 UC carts?

Thanks!

Scott

dfaprinting wrote:

> > The one thing they can't stop us from doing is using their older
> > printers with other inksets and I for one will continue to do just
> that.
> >
> > John
>
>
> They keep trying. Ink chips, and special carts play a role in that
> defense. If they wanted to make their new printers third party
> friendly, they would have used pumps for the ink, instead of
> pressurized carts. Remember the way Encad used to supply inks, and a
> few other high end machines. Bottle feeds give too many options, and
> not enough profits.
>
> And BTW, MIS buys many of their inks from Image Specialists. They also
> claim to make some of their inks, but no one I have talked to really
> knows which ones. I suspect that they are mixing the UT inks in house,
> and maybe some of the dye inks, but it is purely speculation.
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
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>

Which concerns me greatly. Do you have any reliable suggestions for using 
the MIS or Generations G Chrome  pigments in the 10K CF machine? 

I am still accumulating knowledge about this. It isn't easy. There simply are not 
enough people out there who have done it. I spoke with the guy at Media 
Street yesterday and he said the supplier of the clone pressurized carts 
assures him that the leaking situation with their black carts has been resolved, 
but he is not 100% sure if that is the case since so few people do this. 

I am using my 10 K right now for some canvas prints that are 44"x 60" and I 
can do the whole job of five prints by the time my 9600 does one. This is just a 
great printer in so many respects and before it gets too old I want ultrachrome 
gamut and metamerism qualities in it. It is a real workhorse and I hope to keep 
it for a long time.

John

> They keep trying. Ink chips, and special carts play a role in that 
> defense. If they wanted to make their new printers third party 
> friendly, they would have used pumps for the ink, instead of 
> pressurized carts. Remember the way Encad used to supply inks, and a 
> few other high end machines. Bottle feeds give too many options, and 
> not enough profits.
> 
> And BTW, MIS buys many of their inks from Image Specialists. They also 
> claim to make some of their inks, but no one I have talked to really 
> knows which ones. I suspect that they are mixing the UT inks in house, 
> and maybe some of the dye inks, but it is purely speculation.

I see it a little different.  Let me explain my point of view.

The inkjet market is tremendously competitive and Epson feels the heat
from HP, Canon and to a lessor extent Lexmark and others.  HP is far
larger than Seiko/Epson and is the  dominant market leader in printers
and plotters.  Canon is a much stronger brand in the photo market. 
Epson is by no means safe from HP or Canon unless they stay
significantly ahead in product. This has driven them to invest heavily
in R&D and rapidly bring innovations to market.

Epson also feels some heat from the media cloners. This has motivated
them to use some nasty printer/ink lock-in schemes.

In the late 80's/early 90's, many experts/scientists thought that
piezo head technology was limited and could not be drastically
improved.  Epson felt differently and invested in piezo vs thermal
inkjets like HP, Canon.  The results took a fairly long time to bear
fruit, and HP took an enormous lead in inkjet sales with Canon and
Epson trailing.

The great benefit of piezo is flexibility in ink types. This allowed
some small companies to introduce wide format printers for pigment
inks using Epson heads.  Aftermarket companies like Cone, Mediastreet
and MIS introduced pigment and B&W inksets for the Epson dye printers,
giving use alternatives for archival printing.

Later Epson decided to introduce pigmented color inks, and we've seen
very rapid improvement.  The original Archival Pigments had very
limited gamut. Epson inovated with microencapsulated Ultrachrome
pigments which were an big improvement in color gamut, but su**ked on
glossy.  Epson added GLOP for great glossy printing. Now they come out
with K3 for improved Dmax and better gamut.

Like everyone, I despise the various bundling techniques that Epson
uses to lock out ink clones.  But, as we've seen, even the nasty
chipped cartridges were quickly hacked and alternative inks are
available.  Some are innovative, some are clones, but we have a choice.

MIS, Mediastreet and the others are pretty small companies, but
they've been successful with quality aftermarket products for the
Epson printers.  The paper companies are probably even more successful.

The worldwide inkjet printer, media and ink market was $33 billion US,
so I think the economics are viable for aftermarket products.  The
biggest barrier seems to be the hundreds of cartridge types.  The d**m
carts are expensive, and we pay through the nose for ink in them. 
Inkjet ink in carts is the most expensive fluid on the planet.

It will be interesting to see how fast the aftermarket companies can
respond to k3.


"john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> That hits the  nail on the head, but it much easier said than done.
Epson 
> started out with a pile of cash from Seiko's decades of profits from
quartz 
> watches and the micro chip development lab that went along with it.
They 
> simply stumbled into dominating photography. It was never planned in
the 
> beginning.  I started out back when Photoshop 4 was still the
standard using 
> their Photo Stylus 7000. ...

 ,,,

> With the new 2400, how long will Epson likely continue to produce UC
> carts for the 2200?

For longer than the printers will probably last.


> 
> And are there credible alternatives (quality) to Epson's 2200 UC carts?
> 

I have been using the MIS easy-refill, clear carts.  See
http://www.inksupply.com/c82refill.cfm 

These carts with bulk ink cut costs tremendously. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I have not found any yet.  The MIS 21/200 carts aren't really up to scratch.
They are expecting their new foamless carts for the 21/2200 soon but don't
yet have an ETA.  The current ones are very frustrating largely because the
foam restricts an air bubbles (created when inserting/removing the carts)
from dissipating, leading to bad nozzle checks etc.  I have a couple of
leads on other manufacturers but nothing concrete at this stage.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:03:04 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] K3 is the latest technology
> 
>> With the new 2400, how long will Epson likely continue to produce UC
>> carts for the 2200?
> 
> For longer than the printers will probably last.
> 
> 
>> 
>> And are there credible alternatives (quality) to Epson's 2200 UC carts?
>> 
>

Aha! Thanks Paul. I hear about the refillable carts, but didn't
realize that those were for the 2200 as well.

What bulk inks work well (or most conveniently) with the 2200?

To keep this on topic, I would be printing B&W with the UC
replacements using QTR as well as color.

Scott


Paul Roark wrote:

> > With the new 2400, how long will Epson likely continue to produce UC
> > carts for the 2200?
>
> For longer than the printers will probably last.
>
>
> >
> > And are there credible alternatives (quality) to Epson's 2200 UC carts?
> >
>
> I have been using the MIS easy-refill, clear carts. See
> http://www.inksupply.com/c82refill.cfm
>
> These carts with bulk ink cut costs tremendously.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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>
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HP is far
larger than Seiko/Epson and is the dominant market leader in printers
and plotters. Canon is a much stronger brand in the photo market.
Epson is by no means safe from HP or Canon unless they stay
significantly ahead in product. This has driven them to invest heavily
in R&D and rapidly bring innovations to market.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You do have a point there, but as we know size of a company does not 
necessarily equate to a profitable and stable company, witness Delta Airles, 
United Airlines, and General Motors presently in big trouble. 

It could be a lot more amateur photographers use the small HP printers than I 
am aware of. I just never hear students or even amateurs discussing them. 
And it seems to me that Cannon wants the tv/video market plus the 35mm 
digital camera market, both which are huge and very competitive with Nikon 
and Sony breathing down their necks. They may simply not think printers and 
inks are where its at in the long run. I'm sure I don't know.

I guess when I say Epson controlls the output element of the photo world I am 
refering to inks and to a lesser extent media. I still don't know how profitable 
the actual production of printers is but, as you say the price of ink in those little 
carts shipped all over the world equates to the most expensive fluids in the 
world.

John

Scott

If you can hold out a little while wait until MIS has the new "foamless"
carts for the 21/2200.  It will save you a few headaches.  As for ink, the
current colour set that works the best are their UC equivalents, perhaps
with PK-Neutral in place of PK and LK-Neutral in place of LK.  You will need
to re-profile for colour and write your own QTR curves.

Steve

> From: Scott McLoughlin <scott@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:15:24 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] K3 is the latest technology
> 
> Aha! Thanks Paul. I hear about the refillable carts, but didn't
> realize that those were for the 2200 as well.
> 
> What bulk inks work well (or most conveniently) with the 2200?
> 
> To keep this on topic, I would be printing B&W with the UC
> replacements using QTR as well as color.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
>

I have a 7600 with about 50 prints on it (one roll) and the original
inks along with the Colorbyte RIP for sale. If anyone near San Antonio
is interested, let me know. I'm buying a 4800 which will suit my needs
better. I'll include part of another set of inks (full) as well but
would prefer not to ship.

Thanks

Brian

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> Do you have any reliable suggestions for using 
> the MIS or Generations G Chrome  pigments in the 10K CF machine? 


I have some ideas about building something, but so far it looks like 
the parts count is too small for the manufacturers to bother getting 
pricing to me. I have one other lead that I'll follow up later today, 
but they are from Europe, the other two companies were from USA. So 
if this happens, more money will be lost to US manufacturers. Too bad 
since one of the products was a perfect fit.

I think I can build something now, but one of the main parts is $166 
each, and I would need 1 for each color. Doesn't take too long to 
determine that this just isn't feasible as the fully assembled carts 
would have to sell around $2000+ per set. If I can't make what I want 
for a selling price of $500 (maybe up to $650) a set (you supply the 
empty carts), then it isn't happening.

The big problem is going to be testing. I'm not going to run out and 
buy one of these new Epson printers, or even and "old" 10K. In theory 
it's a simple matter to make something that will work, in practice it 
could be different. There are some unknown things about what Epson is 
really doing to cause the ink to flow, and without having access to 
one, it may take some work arounds to get a system functional. That 
said, my percentage of success is pretty high. I could definitely 
make a passive gravity feed system that would work, but it is going 
to be bulky and ugly. I try to stay away from the ugly part as much 
as possible, no systems with tubes stuck through a hole in the top of 
a bottle for me.

And from my past experiences I would suggest the "MIS" inks over the 
Mediastreet. If you really want to get more performance, you  might 
consider the UltraPro inks and a RIP (RIP retail is $1450 for 44 inch 
printers). Did you get the message I sent you off list? It's from 
this yahoo mail account, so it might have ended up in your trash.

Oh, I can wait.

Maybe if I wait a bit, the new carts will become popular enough
that I can snag profiles/curves from someone else for the more
popular papers.

I use little 'ol Picture Window Pro and don't have any profiling
tools/tech/skills.

I think so far I've been extremely lucky, but the Epson driver
for color and QTR for B&W with EEM on the 2200 have been
credibly close to what my (somewhat aging Dell Trinitron) monitor
presents.

Scott

Steve Kale wrote:

> Scott
>
> If you can hold out a little while wait until MIS has the new "foamless"
> carts for the 21/2200. It will save you a few headaches. As for ink, the
> current colour set that works the best are their UC equivalents, perhaps
> with PK-Neutral in place of PK and LK-Neutral in place of LK. You will 
> need
> to re-profile for colour and write your own QTR curves.
>
> Steve
>
>
> > From: Scott McLoughlin <scott@...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:15:24 -0400
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] K3 is the latest technology
> >
> > Aha! Thanks Paul. I hear about the refillable carts, but didn't
> > realize that those were for the 2200 as well.
> >
> > What bulk inks work well (or most conveniently) with the 2200?
> >
> > To keep this on topic, I would be printing B&W with the UC
> > replacements using QTR as well as color.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the 
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Steve,

> ...  The MIS 21/200 carts aren't really up to scratch.
> They are expecting their new foamless carts for the 21/2200 soon but don't
> yet have an ETA.  The current ones are very frustrating largely because
> the
> foam restricts an air bubbles (created when inserting/removing the carts)
> from dissipating, leading to bad nozzle checks etc.  ...

I just have not had much problem with them.  I've just re-loaded the 2200
carts again today, with a perfect nozzle check right off the bat.

My failure rate with the 1280 spongeless carts may be higher than the
current 2200 carts.  

I think there might be 2 things that have to be watched with these types of
carts.  First, on initial fill, there is an air bubble at the outlet that
needs to be sucked out with a bottom-fill adapter.  I use one that is a
standard MIS adapter but with the snout shortened to 7 mm.  Others use the
MIS version that has a small piece of tubing on the end.

The second problem may be if the ink is allowed to run out.  If the ink
totally runs out that air bubble will re-appear, and it may be harder to get
rid of if there is foam around the outlet.  Even if the ink does not run out
totally, if the reservoir gets low enough that there is air at the junction
between the reservoir and the foam (or screen in the spongeless carts), the
ink may solidify at the junction (screen) too much for allow new ink to pass
through when re-filled.  So, I'd check the ink carts before the ink monitor
says the ink is totally out.

Maybe I've just been lucky.  Also, my expectations may be less.  I do expect
a small percentage of carts and chips to fail, but the overall cost saving
is such that having some extras on hand is not a big deal.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
...
> You do have a point there, but as we know size of a company does not 
> necessarily equate to a profitable and stable company, witness Delta
Airles, 
> United Airlines, and General Motors presently in big trouble. 
> 
> It could be a lot more amateur photographers use the small HP
printers than I 
> am aware of. I just never hear students or even amateurs discussing
them. 

Size does not mean success, but market dominance does.  HP's printer
division profits are carrying the entire company.  

You are right about serious photographers. They are mostly running
Epson and Canon. Epson may be a leader in the photo printing
sub-segment, but HP and Canon are close and very threatening.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
> The 9000 CIS systems that I sold were 650 dollar each. 6 ink lines 
> directly connected to the internal printer inklines, ink pressure 


When you say directly connected, do you mean take the side off and 
attach the tubing to the steel ink lines at each side? That's how I 
have my 9500 done. Bottles are held in a rack behind the printer, 
hanging from the side of the normal ink holder assembly.

The springs may be less tempermental than the bottles I have now. 
It's a "constant" pressure set-up, but it's effected a little too 
much by atmospheric changes at the moment. I just haven't bothered to 
fix that, it doesn't bother me too much, and I'll probably never sell 
that design. I also just finshed a design for the 4000/76/9600 
printers where the bottle is attached to the ink carts (just like an 
insanely expensive system some people may have seen). Nothing tricky 
about this one, but at least the tubing isn't stuck down through a 
hole on the top of the bottle and held in place by hot glue. I'm 
hoping that this bottle and the better inks will be able to 
revitalize those printers. Also trying to decide if there is a market 
for such a bottle system (cheap). From the looks of ebay, it doesn't 
seem like there is much market for them. There are a few clear cart 
designs on there now, but none seem to move (most are too expensive).

I've had a terrible time with small bubbles forming in the gap between the
poppet valve and the foam.  Because these can't escape it prevents new ink
from flowing to the filter above the poppet valve.  Then it all just stops.
It's not so easy for me to just get another set of carts.  The design of the
current carts is simply poor.  The new design holds a lot more promise.  If
I were starting again I would wait for the new carts. As I noted earlier, I
am also hoping to have an alternative manufacturer to try out soon also.  If
they prove substantially better then I will load MIS ink into those carts.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> 
> Steve,
> 
>> ...  The MIS 21/200 carts aren't really up to scratch.
>> They are expecting their new foamless carts for the 21/2200 soon but don't
>> yet have an ETA.  The current ones are very frustrating largely because
>> the
>> foam restricts an air bubbles (created when inserting/removing the carts)
>> from dissipating, leading to bad nozzle checks etc.  ...
> 
> I just have not had much problem with them.  I've just re-loaded the 2200
> carts again today, with a perfect nozzle check right off the bat.
> 
> My failure rate with the 1280 spongeless carts may be higher than the
> current 2200 carts.
> 
> I think there might be 2 things that have to be watched with these types of
> carts.  First, on initial fill, there is an air bubble at the outlet that
> needs to be sucked out with a bottom-fill adapter.  I use one that is a
> standard MIS adapter but with the snout shortened to 7 mm.  Others use the
> MIS version that has a small piece of tubing on the end.
> 
> The second problem may be if the ink is allowed to run out.  If the ink
> totally runs out that air bubble will re-appear, and it may be harder to get
> rid of if there is foam around the outlet.  Even if the ink does not run out
> totally, if the reservoir gets low enough that there is air at the junction
> between the reservoir and the foam (or screen in the spongeless carts), the
> ink may solidify at the junction (screen) too much for allow new ink to pass
> through when re-filled.  So, I'd check the ink carts before the ink monitor
> says the ink is totally out.
> 
> Maybe I've just been lucky.  Also, my expectations may be less.  I do expect
> a small percentage of carts and chips to fail, but the overall cost saving
> is such that having some extras on hand is not a big deal.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Tom Baker wrote:

>While your overall complaint is probably correct, I can well imagine that the pressurized carts and chips are actually done to keep the cost of the printers down.  It has to be cheaper/easier to pressurize all the carts with the air from a single pump than putting in individual pumps for each ink.  The chips are certainly the easiest way to know when the ink supply is about to run out.  This may be critical to avoiding damage to the head.
> 
>Tom Baker
>
>  
>
There are good reasons to use pressurised carts and a single air pump. A 
simple way of keeping the ink pressure at the atmospheric pressure at 
head height is one of them. No liguid pump(s) in the inklines needed. It 
also doesn't prevent the use of third party inks in the carts as the MIS 
7600 inks in my 10000 shows. A lot of 10000's around with third party ink.

The chips are there to keep third party suppliers out of business. The 
old 9000s have a far simpler way of ink control and it worked 99% of the 
time with little ink left in the carts.

The whining about too little R&D in this inkjet industry  isn't based on 
facts. 10 years ago we wouldn't have thought possible what is now 
everyday's work: printing color and B&W without a darkroom.  With a 
quality in every aspect that's better than what is now possible with 
photochemical processes. More competition in digital  printing than in 
the days of analogue photography. And a leading company that knows it 
has to deliver archival quality if it wants to ask the higher price. 
This isn't the end of that development either. Anyone with a desire to 
return to the darkroom and make color prints with Kodak supplies ?

Ernst

brucenorikane wrote:

>I see it a little different.  Let me explain my point of view.
>
>
>
>It will be interesting to see how fast the aftermarket companies can
>respond to k3.
>
>  
>
My point of view as well. Good summary.

Ernst

dfaprinting wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
><deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Do you have any reliable suggestions for using 
>>the MIS or Generations G Chrome  pigments in the 10K CF machine? 
>>    
>>
>
>
>I have some ideas about building something, but so far it looks like 
>the parts count is too small for the manufacturers to bother getting 
>pricing to me. I have one other lead that I'll follow up later today, 
>but they are from Europe, the other two companies were from USA. So 
>if this happens, more money will be lost to US manufacturers. Too bad 
>since one of the products was a perfect fit.
>
>I think I can build something now, but one of the main parts is $166 
>each, and I would need 1 for each color. Doesn't take too long to 
>determine that this just isn't feasible as the fully assembled carts 
>would have to sell around $2000+ per set. If I can't make what I want 
>for a selling price of $500 (maybe up to $650) a set (you supply the 
>empty carts), then it isn't happening.
>
>The big problem is going to be testing. I'm not going to run out and 
>buy one of these new Epson printers, or even and "old" 10K. In theory 
>it's a simple matter to make something that will work, in practice it 
>could be different. There are some unknown things about what Epson is 
>really doing to cause the ink to flow, and without having access to 
>one, it may take some work arounds to get a system functional. That 
>said, my percentage of success is pretty high. I could definitely 
>make a passive gravity feed system that would work, but it is going 
>to be bulky and ugly. I try to stay away from the ugly part as much 
>as possible, no systems with tubes stuck through a hole in the top of 
>a bottle for me.
>
>And from my past experiences I would suggest the "MIS" inks over the 
>Mediastreet. If you really want to get more performance, you  might 
>consider the UltraPro inks and a RIP (RIP retail is $1450 for 44 inch 
>printers). Did you get the message I sent you off list? It's from 
>this yahoo mail account, so it might have ended up in your trash.
>
Some custom tools and a MIS resetter for the chips. Together maybe 70 US 
dollar and an hour work on six carts. 500 ml per cart. The cart valves 
allow many easy refills. I'll return one fixed cart for free per two 
10000CF carts received.

The 9000 CIS systems that I sold were 650 dollar each. 6 ink lines 
directly connected to the internal printer inklines, ink pressure 
equalised by springs underneath the bottles. Instruction CD included 
(Dutch language however). Side kick business though, 13 sold so far with 
no complaints, they even make the 9000s still attractive on the 
secondhand market they told me yesterday. 2200 Euro for a five year old 
9000 with the CIS isn't a bad figure.

Wonder whether the Epson marketing style makes other people too greedy too.

Ernst

-Some custom tools and a MIS resetter for the chips. Together maybe 70 US
dollar and an hour work on six carts. 500 ml per cart. The cart valves
allow many easy refills. I'll return one fixed cart for free per two
10000CF carts received.


Ernst,

I contacted the only service bureau in Atlanta that I know of that uses the 10K 
CF machine. They are going to save the carts from now on for me, to give to 
you. But, these carts even under heavy production last a couple of months 
each. I'm checking around to see what else I come up with. What black do you 
recommend?

I assume you are drilling a hole to create a drain plug so that these things can 
be reused. I would much rather find 3rd party ones already made but 
everyday that goes by it seems less likely that anyone would want  to 
manufacture one for such a small market. The very odd thing is that Media 
Street claims that the only cart of theirs that has leaked is the black channel. I 
have no idea why this is, and I do hope they have this solved. But they have 
very few people using them anyway, and this I don't understand either.

John

Re the MIS 2200 top-fill carts

>I just have not had much problem with them.  - Paul roark

My experience has been like Paul's, extraordinarily good.  I've been
doing a lot of experimenting with UT7 inks and have used 17 or 18
carts over the past few months.  I've had one bad cart and one bad
chip.

As Paul recommends, I always swap before they show empty, usually when
the indicater looks like 10 or 15% remaining.  I have spares ready to
go, so the swap is done as quickly as possible so the cart slot is not
empty very long - just a second or two.  After putting in the new cart
I let it sit for about 5 minutes before using it, to let the ink
settle down into the head (I guess that's what's happening, it makes a
difference).  It gets perfect nozzle checks most of the time, I'd
guess 80% of the time or greater.  I rarely do cleanings any more.

I also recently tried something someone mentioned here last week -
when ready to use the new cart, instead of pressing the ink button, I
turn it off, then back on after a few seconds.  It goes right back to
work without the cleaning cycle - great!

These carts have totally changed my ink life.  I spend less money,
mutter fewer naughty words, and am more productive. They're great.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I've had a terrible time with small bubbles forming in the gap 
between the
> poppet valve and the foam.  "


Steve,

I had that same problem too. Then I realized I was skipping over a 
very important step of cart re-filling:

After filling the resovoir, leave the cart in the up-right position 
for 1 hour, And Then put the stopped in the resovior "fill hole".

That seemed to clear up the nozzle check problems with me.

I used to fill the cart, plug the hole, use the BFA, the try to print 
with the carts. Always had problems.

Scott

Have you seen this report?

http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-ink-repor
t/

I believe the air leakage occurs when removing and inserting the cartridges
- not just when refilling them.  That makes them very ineffective for
swapping back and forth with different ink sets (eg colour to B&W).  I
expect the next version to be much better.

> From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:08:40 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: K3 is the latest technology
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> I've had a terrible time with small bubbles forming in the gap
> between the
>> poppet valve and the foam.  "
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I had that same problem too. Then I realized I was skipping over a
> very important step of cart re-filling:
> 
> After filling the resovoir, leave the cart in the up-right position
> for 1 hour, And Then put the stopped in the resovior "fill hole".
> 
> That seemed to clear up the nozzle check problems with me.
> 
> I used to fill the cart, plug the hole, use the BFA, the try to print
> with the carts. Always had problems.
> 
> Scott
>

dfaprinting wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
><E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
>  
>
>>The 9000 CIS systems that I sold were 650 dollar each. 6 ink lines 
>>directly connected to the internal printer inklines, ink pressure 
>>    
>>
>
>
>When you say directly connected, do you mean take the side off and 
>attach the tubing to the steel ink lines at each side? That's how I 
>have my 9500 done. Bottles are held in a rack behind the printer, 
>hanging from the side of the normal ink holder assembly.
>  
>

Sounds much like the CIS systems I designed 4 years ago. There were some 
pics on the web of my CIS systems.

>The springs may be less tempermental than the bottles I have now. 
>It's a "constant" pressure set-up, but it's effected a little too 
>much by atmospheric changes at the moment. I just haven't bothered to 
>fix that, it doesn't bother me too much, and I'll probably never sell 
>that design. I also just finshed a design for the 4000/76/9600 
>printers where the bottle is attached to the ink carts (just like an 
>insanely expensive system some people may have seen). Nothing tricky 
>about this one, but at least the tubing isn't stuck down through a 
>hole on the top of the bottle and held in place by hot glue. I'm 
>hoping that this bottle and the better inks will be able to 
>revitalize those printers. Also trying to decide if there is a market 
>for such a bottle system (cheap). From the looks of ebay, it doesn't 
>seem like there is much market for them. There are a few clear cart 
>designs on there now, but none seem to move (most are too expensive).
>
The membranes on the dampers will even out the small pressure 
differences still existing in the gravity fed printers. It may be 
different on the pressurised carts systems.

I had the tubes through the neck of the bottles, not through the caps, 
that's easier when refilling and suited the rest of the spring chamber 
design.

The 9600 cart design is already excellent for refilling and the monthly 
shake. The same for the 10000 and I think the new carts will have much 
similarity in design to the last. CIS systems for desktop printers 
remains interesting, I doubt it will be interesting for the wide 
formats. For the 9000/9500 there were good reasons for a CIS, lousy 
seals - inkslot needles and electronics below the inkslot, that's not an 
invitation for refilling. Syringe + fine needle had to be used. The 9600 
and 10000 carts almost suck the ink in ...


Ernst

john dean wrote:

>-Some custom tools and a MIS resetter for the chips. Together maybe 70 US
>dollar and an hour work on six carts. 500 ml per cart. The cart valves
>allow many easy refills. I'll return one fixed cart for free per two
>10000CF carts received.
>
>
>Ernst,
>
>I contacted the only service bureau in Atlanta that I know of that uses the 10K 
>CF machine. They are going to save the carts from now on for me, to give to 
>you. But, these carts even under heavy production last a couple of months 
>each. I'm checking around to see what else I come up with. What black do you 
>recommend?
>
>  
>
I keep my promise but don't hold my breath. Eboni Black is excellent and 
MIS PK black will be alright too (that's used in the 9000 quad so far) 
though I still have enough Epson UC PK for the time being and I might 
even use the 10000CF black again in a matte cart if it isn't too warm. 
Not that much gloss printing so far.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> The 9600 cart design is already excellent for refilling and the 
monthly 
> shake. The same for the 10000 and I think the new carts will have 
much 
> similarity in design to the last. CIS systems for desktop printers 
> remains interesting, I doubt it will be interesting for the wide 
> formats. For the 9000/9500 there were good reasons for a CIS, lousy 
> seals - inkslot needles and electronics below the inkslot, that's 
not an 
> invitation for refilling. Syringe + fine needle had to be used. The 
9600 
> and 10000 carts almost suck the ink in ...
> 
> 
> Ernst

I'll keep that in mind as I persue this. I did get an email from one 
company, they said there info on the web was of extreme prototype 
parts, and that they are not really ready for Alpha testing. I of 
course offered to try them out anyway, I don't need a pump chamber 
that is completely optimized just to move the ink. Working and with a 
few ml per minute flow should be enough. Charging the heads will be 
the biggest demand on a pump, even high speed printing can't be more 
than about 1-2 ml per minute.

Clayton, do you mean that after changing the cart, while the cartridge holder is still out 
towards the center, you just turn the printer off and then on again?

Ed

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:
> Re the MIS 2200 top-fill carts
> 
> >I just have not had much problem with them.  - Paul roark
> 
>
snip

> 
> I also recently tried something someone mentioned here last week -
> when ready to use the new cart, instead of pressing the ink button, I
> turn it off, then back on after a few seconds.  It goes right back to
> work without the cleaning cycle - great!

Hello Ed,

>Clayton, do you mean that after changing the cart, while the
>cartridge holder is still out towards the center, you just turn 
>the printer off and then on again?

Yes, after inserting the new cart and lowering the plastic flap,
instead of pressing the Ink button.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm