Digital BW, The Print

HI Paul
http://www.irdigital.net/
will be doing my D100 conversion.

There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions too


Fran
winten@...
winten51@...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR


> From: Fran
>
> If someone could hold my hand to get my 200P out of mothballs to
> get it to
> black and white, I would do it in a flash. I am getting my D100
> converted to
> IR. and will need a B&W printer. On the shelf is the 2200, 1800, 800 that
> needs a new home and the 2000P in a box on a shelf.

Well, I just started out with QTR, so I'm no expert. Also, although I've
tried QTR with my 2200 and the stock inks, I haven't done so with the 2000P.
Instead, I bought the UT-FS and UT-FSN inks from MIS, and am trying to
develop QTR curves for them. I'm still pretty far up on the learning curve,
though.

However, setting up QTR, at least on Windows, was pretty trivial. If I
manage to come up with some good curves, I'll certainly publish them.

By the way, who's doing your IR conversion?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...




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Yahoo! Groups Links








-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.0 - Release Date: 5/30/2005

dealing with david @ irdigtial.net is not a good idea. he has had me
camera for almost 8 weeks. he does respond to email at at all. he does
work for canon so i am going to pursue him via canon corporate. it is
best to find alternative to irdigital.net

On 5/31/05, Fran <winten@...> wrote:
> HI Paul
> http://www.irdigital.net/
> will be doing my D100 conversion.
> 
> There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions too
> 
> 
> Fran
> winten@...
> winten51@...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR
> 
> 
> > From: Fran
> >
> > If someone could hold my hand to get my 200P out of mothballs to
> > get it to
> > black and white, I would do it in a flash. I am getting my D100
> > converted to
> > IR. and will need a B&W printer. On the shelf is the 2200, 1800, 800 that
> > needs a new home and the 2000P in a box on a shelf.
> 
> Well, I just started out with QTR, so I'm no expert. Also, although I've
> tried QTR with my 2200 and the stock inks, I haven't done so with the 2000P.
> Instead, I bought the UT-FS and UT-FSN inks from MIS, and am trying to
> develop QTR curves for them. I'm still pretty far up on the learning curve,
> though.
> 
> However, setting up QTR, at least on Windows, was pretty trivial. If I
> manage to come up with some good curves, I'll certainly publish them.
> 
> By the way, who's doing your IR conversion?
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.0 - Release Date: 5/30/2005
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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-- 
  -------------------------------------
  regards, mehrdad

> From: mehrdad
> 
> dealing with david @ irdigtial.net is not a good idea. he has had me
> camera for almost 8 weeks. he does respond to email at at all. he does
> work for canon so i am going to pursue him via canon corporate. it is
> best to find alternative to irdigital.net

Keep us posted.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should be a 
trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only thing a 
bit special that is needed is a plain glass of the same dimension as 
the filter removed.

henrik

On 1 jun 2005, at 06.25, Fran wrote:

> HI Paul
> http://www.irdigital.net/
> will be doing my D100 conversion.
>
> There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions too
>

Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array; not at all
easy.  A filter to block the visible light as well.
Then, you need to process the raw files without colour interpolation, for a
true monochrome image.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Henrik
Frejborg
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:41 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion

Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should be a
trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only thing a
bit special that is needed is a plain glass of the same dimension as
the filter removed.

henrik

On 1 jun 2005, at 06.25, Fran wrote:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" 
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
> Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array; not 
at all
> easy.  A filter to block the visible light as well.
> Then, you need to process the raw files without colour interpolation, 
for a
> true monochrome image.
> 
> John

Having shot thousands of IR pics, film and digital I'm interested to 
hear what you mean about "color interpolation". Could you expand on 
those thoughts a bit and describe what a true monochrome image is?

Thanks

Jules

The color interpolation I mentioned applies to digital array sensors like
those found in most digicams and DSLRs, not film.
Excepting the Foveon sensor, digital photographic sensors have a patterned
filter over the imaging chip, allowing the creation of a color image from an
otherwise “colorblind” sensor.  A search for Bayer filter will provide more
details.
What I meant by a true monochrome image is one where the intensity reading
of each element in the digital sensor independently maps to the final image.
With processing of sensor data with a Bayer interpolation routine, each
pixel is a combination of its own intensity and some portion of surrounding
pixels.  In-camera jpegs and raw files converted with the standard software
will do this.

See David Burren’s page, http://burren.cx/photo/e950ir.html for an example
of the difference in processing.  The fourth image down can be moused over
for comparison.  Note that this image was taken with a sensor containing a
bayer filter, so it would not meet what I referred to as a “true monochrome
image”.  The filters on that particular camera are rather transparent to
near-IR so it’s darn close.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
lulalake_1999
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:48 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
> Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array; not
at all
> easy.  A filter to block the visible light as well.
> Then, you need to process the raw files without colour interpolation,
for a
> true monochrome image.
>
> John

Having shot thousands of IR pics, film and digital I'm interested to
hear what you mean about "color interpolation". Could you expand on
those thoughts a bit and describe what a true monochrome image is?

Thanks

Jules





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,

Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is 
more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is 
this your understanding?

Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras 
might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor. 
Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion, 
plenty of Canons and Sonys.

Thanks again

Jules

This depends on the sensor. Some of the newer DSLR's do have the filter 
integrated (I believe the 20d is this way) while most older DSLR's have 
a seperate filter which can be removed.

Adam



lulalake_1999 wrote:

> John,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is
> more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is
> this your understanding?
> 
> Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras
> might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor.
> Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion,
> plenty of Canons and Sonys.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Jules
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
> as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
> same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
> from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
> and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files 
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND 
> \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  
> \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE 
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; 
> (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
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>

> From: John Moody
>
> Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array;
> not at all
> easy.  A filter to block the visible light as well.
> Then, you need to process the raw files without colour
> interpolation, for a true monochrome image.

The Bayer filter is built onto the chip as part of the semiconductor fab
process, so it can't just be lifted off. Although people are experimenting
with chemical means of dissolving it, I'm not aware of anyone who's
succeeded. But if someone does, the more obvious application would be for
B&W photography, not just IR.

However, even for IR there is some benefit to the Bayer pattern, because the
three colors not only have different visible light responses, they also have
different IR responses. It's simply not the case than an IR converted
digicam will show everything in the red channel--the other two channels also
carry different images, providing an opportunity for bringing out different
features of a scene.

For instance, my Minolta DiMage 7, which has no IR block filter, generally
produces garbage in the blue channel when I put on my R72 filter, but two
good but different images in the red and green channels. Not surprisingly,
the red channel has the really dark skies, while the green channel has the
white leaves. Choosing the proportion of these gives me some artistic
control over the image that I wouldn't have if the sensor was monochrome.

On the other hand, a monochrome sensor would be much sharper.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

> From: Adam Maas
>
> This depends on the sensor. Some of the newer DSLR's do have the filter
> integrated (I believe the 20d is this way) while most older DSLR's have
> a seperate filter which can be removed.

You're confusing two filters. The Bayer pattern filter, which is what gives
each sensor its color, is built right on the chip, as part of the
semiconductor fabrication process. Remember, the individual pixels are on a
grid of only a few microns (about 7um in the 20D, much smaller in
point-and-shoot digicams), and the filter itself is much thinner than
plastic food wrap. There's no way they could ever fabricate that as a
separate filter and then align it to the chip.

The filter you're thinking of is the anti-alias and IR block filter. This is
a solid glass filter, not patterned, that fits over the chip. I'm told that
in the 10D it's glued on, but in many cameras it isn't. That's the filter
that gets removed in order to make the camera sensitive to IR.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Actually, it requires more than plain glass be put in front of the sensor.
The high quality conversions such as done by Hutech, use a multicoated clear
filter to eliminate ghosting.

Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Henrik Frejborg" <henrik.frejborg@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion


Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should be a
trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only thing a
bit special that is needed is a plain glass of the same dimension as
the filter removed.

henrik

On 1 jun 2005, at 06.25, Fran wrote:

> HI Paul
> http://www.irdigital.net/
> will be doing my D100 conversion.
>
> There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions too
>




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech
modifies the Sigma.

Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "lulalake_1999" <lulalake_1999@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion


John,

Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is
more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is
this your understanding?

Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras
might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor.
Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion,
plenty of Canons and Sonys.

Thanks again

Jules








Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Henrik Frejborg 
<henrik.frejborg@t...> wrote:
> Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should 
be a 
> trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only 
thing a 
> bit special that is needed is a plain glass of the same dimension 
as 
> the filter removed.
> 
> henrik
> 
> On 1 jun 2005, at 06.25, Fran wrote:
> 
> > HI Paul
> > http://www.irdigital.net/
> > will be doing my D100 conversion.
> >
> > There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions 
too
> >


I counsel against using the Irguy@... 
http://www.irdigital.net/:  he never returned the first D30 I sent to 
him and didn't answer emails.  My experience dealing with him was far 
from good.  Since I am in Europe, taking action against him would 
have been difficult. Others have alleged that they have not been 
satisfied, in this thread and at 
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic2/120589/0#972006 or search for 
the topic with the words "Taken by a Fraud & Scammer" posted 
by "Figtrees" posted on August 13, 2004 .

Roger Salmon, in the UK, replaced the filter that digitalIRguy 
installed in a replacement D30 and corrected for focus.  The results 
were so very markedly better.  I recently p'exed that D30 that Roger 
had re-modified for a D60, and I am thrilled with it.  I have no 
hesitation in recommending him: a gentleman!  Contact him at 
james.salmon@... .  I guess for US list members it might 
appear to be more expensive, but not in my experience compared with 
the IR guy.

Be warned- caveat emptor!

Colin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
<lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
> John,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is 
> more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is 
> this your understanding?
> 
> Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras 
> might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor. 
> Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion, 
> plenty of Canons and Sonys.

That's because there's no such thing as a "Sigma conversion". It
doesn't need one ;)

On the Sigma SD10, the IR blocking filter is incorporated in an
optical window (called the "dust protector") right behind the lens
mount. It is removable for cleaning. All you have to do is remove one
screw, put the dust protector someplace safe, and you're good to go.
The camera even comes with the screwdriver (and the procedure for
removing the dust protector is documented in the manual).

So, in the field, in 2 minutes flat, you can switch your Sigma SD10 to
IR, or back to visible light.

The IR performance is excellent. The Sigma forum on dpReview maintains
a large user gallery on pBase, and you can see many fine examples there.

I typically tell people the SD10 is the best camera currently on the
market for IR. And it's very good for near UV, too.

Note that the older Sigma SD9 has its IR blocking filter on the
surface of the sensor window, and you can't remove it without doing a
lot of damage. You want SD10.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco"
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: John Moody
> >
> > Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array;
> > not at all
> > easy.  A filter to block the visible light as well.
> > Then, you need to process the raw files without colour
> > interpolation, for a true monochrome image.
> 
> The Bayer filter is built onto the chip as part of the semiconductor fab
> process, so it can't just be lifted off. Although people are
experimenting
> with chemical means of dissolving it, I'm not aware of anyone who's
> succeeded.

Ray Fraser. He hangs around the digital photography forum over at
photo.net. 

He's scraped them off (doing enormous damage) but has finally managed
to successfully disolve one, just this week.

> But if someone does, the more obvious application would be for
> B&W photography, not just IR.

Yup.

> However, even for IR there is some benefit to the Bayer pattern,
because the
> three colors not only have different visible light responses, they
also have
> different IR responses. It's simply not the case than an IR converted
> digicam will show everything in the red channel--the other two
channels also
> carry different images, providing an opportunity for bringing out
different
> features of a scene.
> 
> For instance, my Minolta DiMage 7, which has no IR block filter,
generally
> produces garbage in the blue channel when I put on my R72 filter,
but two
> good but different images in the red and green channels. Not
surprisingly,
> the red channel has the really dark skies, while the green channel
has the
> white leaves. Choosing the proportion of these gives me some artistic
> control over the image that I wouldn't have if the sensor was
monochrome.

We digital IR fans call that "false color".
 
> On the other hand, a monochrome sensor would be much sharper.

Use a Wratten 87 (Hoya RM90), instead of that Wratten 89B (Hoya R72)
of yours, and you'll see true IR monochrome.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown"
<baffin@c...> wrote:
> Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech
> modifies the Sigma.

Gary, what would they do to the Sigma?

It already has a filter mount between the bayonett and mirror, like
what Hutech installs in Canon cameras. All you need is a new filter,
and you're good to go.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
> What I meant by a true monochrome image is one where the intensity
reading
> of each element in the digital sensor independently maps to the
final image.
> With processing of sensor data with a Bayer interpolation routine, each
> pixel is a combination of its own intensity and some portion of
surrounding
> pixels.  In-camera jpegs and raw files converted with the standard
software
> will do this.
> 
> See David Burren's page, http://burren.cx/photo/e950ir.html for an
example
> of the difference in processing.  The fourth image down can be
moused over
> for comparison.  Note that this image was taken with a sensor
containing a
> bayer filter, so it would not meet what I referred to as a "true
monochrome
> image".  The filters on that particular camera are rather transparent to
> near-IR so it's darn close.

It's more than just "darn close". I use the same trick on my Nikon
D100, shoot through a Wratten 87, convert with Dave Coffin's DCRAW in
"document mode", then equalize the levels, and deviation is less than
1%, comparable to an actual monochrome sensor.

The filters on all cameras that I've ever worked with are pretty much
transparent to IR about 750nm.

And then there's the Canon 20da, which is intended for Astrophotography 
work, but has a different IR low-pass filter that is apparently very 
IR-friendly. It's just been introduced to the world market (Previously 
it was a japan-only camera).

-Adam




koloshor wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
> <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
>  > John,
>  >
>  > Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is
>  > more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is
>  > this your understanding?
>  >
>  > Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras
>  > might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor.
>  > Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion,
>  > plenty of Canons and Sonys.
> 
> That's because there's no such thing as a "Sigma conversion". It
> doesn't need one ;)
> 
> On the Sigma SD10, the IR blocking filter is incorporated in an
> optical window (called the "dust protector") right behind the lens
> mount. It is removable for cleaning. All you have to do is remove one
> screw, put the dust protector someplace safe, and you're good to go.
> The camera even comes with the screwdriver (and the procedure for
> removing the dust protector is documented in the manual).
> 
> So, in the field, in 2 minutes flat, you can switch your Sigma SD10 to
> IR, or back to visible light.
> 
> The IR performance is excellent. The Sigma forum on dpReview maintains
> a large user gallery on pBase, and you can see many fine examples there.
> 
> I typically tell people the SD10 is the best camera currently on the
> market for IR. And it's very good for near UV, too.
> 
> Note that the older Sigma SD9 has its IR blocking filter on the
> surface of the sensor window, and you can't remove it without doing a
> lot of damage. You want SD10.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
> as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
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> 
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>

> From: koloshor
>
> Ray Fraser. He hangs around the digital photography forum over at
> photo.net.
>
> He's scraped them off (doing enormous damage) but has finally managed
> to successfully disolve one, just this week.

That's good news. I'll have to check him out.

> Use a Wratten 87 (Hoya RM90), instead of that Wratten 89B (Hoya R72)
> of yours, and you'll see true IR monochrome.

Is that a 900nm cutoff filter? I would expect longer exposure times with
that. With the R72, I can barely hand-hold my DiMage 7 in bright sunlight.
Not that I'm not willing to try it.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

> From: koloshor
>
> That's because there's no such thing as a "Sigma conversion". It
> doesn't need one ;)
>
> On the Sigma SD10, the IR blocking filter is incorporated in an
> optical window (called the "dust protector") right behind the lens
> mount. It is removable for cleaning. All you have to do is remove one
> screw, put the dust protector someplace safe, and you're good to go.
> The camera even comes with the screwdriver (and the procedure for
> removing the dust protector is documented in the manual).
>
> So, in the field, in 2 minutes flat, you can switch your Sigma SD10 to
> IR, or back to visible light.
>
> The IR performance is excellent. The Sigma forum on dpReview maintains
> a large user gallery on pBase, and you can see many fine examples there.
>
> I typically tell people the SD10 is the best camera currently on the
> market for IR. And it's very good for near UV, too.

Is this filter in the viewfinder path, or behind the mirror? It would be
difficult to use the camera if it was in front. At least with lens mounted
filters you can frame the picture on a tripod and take a meter reading, and
then put the filter on.

I've considered getting a Sigma, to experiment with, but all my lenses are
Canon. Some guy in Asia has been working on an adapter, but so far hasn't
succeeded.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

-Gary, what would they do to the Sigma?

-It already has a filter mount between the bayonett and mirror, like
-what Hutech installs in Canon cameras. All you need is a new filter,
-and you're good to go.


Don't ask me ask Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech


Gary

> And then there's the Canon 20da, which is intended for Astrophotography
> work, but has a different IR low-pass filter that is apparently very
> IR-friendly. It's just been introduced to the world market (Previously
> it was a japan-only camera).
>
-Adam

I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the exposure time under bright
sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.

Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR photography.


Gary

Hi Gary!
I've been thinking about buying a modified 20D from
Hutech. I assume you're satisfied with them? Did you
buy a converted camera from them or have yours
converted? 
-John

-
> I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech
> www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
> really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the
> exposure time under bright
> sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.
> 
> Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR
> photography.
> 
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Paul,

According to my understanding Dimage 7 has a little weaker IR blocking
filter. But IR blocking filter is definitely there.

If it is true that it has no IR blocking filter, after put on an Kodak IR
filter that passes IR but not visible light, you will get a pretty much
regular speed like shooting without the IR filter. Like in sunny weather,
you can get ISO 100, F11, 1/60 sec.

- philip

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul D.
DeRocco
  Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:08 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion


  > From: John Moody
  >
  > Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array;
  > not at all
  > easy.  A filter to block the visible light as well.
  > Then, you need to process the raw files without colour
  > interpolation, for a true monochrome image.

  The Bayer filter is built onto the chip as part of the semiconductor fab
  process, so it can't just be lifted off. Although people are experimenting
  with chemical means of dissolving it, I'm not aware of anyone who's
  succeeded. But if someone does, the more obvious application would be for
  B&W photography, not just IR.

  However, even for IR there is some benefit to the Bayer pattern, because
the
  three colors not only have different visible light responses, they also
have
  different IR responses. It's simply not the case than an IR converted
  digicam will show everything in the red channel--the other two channels
also
  carry different images, providing an opportunity for bringing out
different
  features of a scene.

  For instance, my Minolta DiMage 7, which has no IR block filter, generally
  produces garbage in the blue channel when I put on my R72 filter, but two
  good but different images in the red and green channels. Not surprisingly,
  the red channel has the really dark skies, while the green channel has the
  white leaves. Choosing the proportion of these gives me some artistic
  control over the image that I wouldn't have if the sensor was monochrome.

  On the other hand, a monochrome sensor would be much sharper.

  --

  Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
  Paul                mailto:pderocco@...



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: Pacific New Media
> 
> According to my understanding Dimage 7 has a little weaker IR blocking
> filter. But IR blocking filter is definitely there.
> 
> If it is true that it has no IR blocking filter, after put on an Kodak IR
> filter that passes IR but not visible light, you will get a pretty much
> regular speed like shooting without the IR filter. Like in sunny weather,
> you can get ISO 100, F11, 1/60 sec.

Yes, I suspect it has a filter of some sort, just a weak one.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

John:

I bought the 20D body from them, it comes with a 1 year warrantee.

Gary

www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Custodio" <custodiojohn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion


> Hi Gary!
> I've been thinking about buying a modified 20D from
> Hutech. I assume you're satisfied with them? Did you
> buy a converted camera from them or have yours
> converted?
> -John
>
> -
> > I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech
> > www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
> > really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the
> > exposure time under bright
> > sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.
> >
> > Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR
> > photography.
> >
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > and other resources as they are often being updated.
> >
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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Gary-
Thanks. I'm probably going to get it sometime soon.
-John


--- Gary Brown <baffin@...> wrote:

> John:
> 
> I bought the 20D body from them, it comes with a 1
> year warrantee.
> 
> Gary
> 
> www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Custodio" <custodiojohn@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion
> 
> 
> > Hi Gary!
> > I've been thinking about buying a modified 20D
> from
> > Hutech. I assume you're satisfied with them? Did
> you
> > buy a converted camera from them or have yours
> > converted?
> > -John
> >
> > -
> > > I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech
> > > www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
> > > really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the
> > > exposure time under bright
> > > sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.
> > >
> > > Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR
> > > photography.
> > >
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> 
=== message truncated ===



		
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i got my 20d back from david @ irdigital.net, the camera is converted
to a bw ir but the ir filter (or lack of it) is very weak and the
colors blue and light brown show up as faint light colors. i have
contacted david to see what's the problem but he is very very very
slow to response, i was hoping to have the camera ready before my
vacation but it don't seem to be


the other camera david did for me (a digital rebel) is a true bw ir!
and works great

On 6/3/05, John Custodio <custodiojohn@...> wrote:
> Gary-
> Thanks. I'm probably going to get it sometime soon.
> -John
> 
> 
> --- Gary Brown <baffin@...> wrote:
> 
> > John:
> >
> > I bought the 20D body from them, it comes with a 1
> > year warrantee.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Custodio" <custodiojohn@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion
> >
> >
> > > Hi Gary!
> > > I've been thinking about buying a modified 20D
> > from
> > > Hutech. I assume you're satisfied with them? Did
> > you
> > > buy a converted camera from them or have yours
> > > converted?
> > > -John
> > >
> > > -
> > > > I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech
> > > > www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
> > > > really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the
> > > > exposure time under bright
> > > > sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.
> > > >
> > > > Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR
> > > > photography.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gary
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
> > Files,
> > > > and other resources as they are often being
> > updated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > they are often being updated.
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> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
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> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
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> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
  -------------------------------------
  regards, mehrdad