Digital BW, The Print

Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the same 
image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there is a 
difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver with 
the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.

John H

IJC uses OPM, not the Epson driver.
 
Tom Baker

Mr_Misty_44 <jharvey@isd.net> wrote:
Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the same 
image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there is a 
difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver with 
the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.

John H




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Right, and how will this comparison effect those of us who are contemplating what 
differences QTR and 9800  machines will show vs 9600 and QTR. This will be a 
"significant" ( in Epson terminology) thing to know before spending 5 thousand dollars 
again. Any direct comparisons of this between 4000's and 4800s?

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> 
wrote:
> IJC uses OPM, not the Epson driver.
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
> Mr_Misty_44 <jharvey@i...> wrote:
> Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the same 
> image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there is a 
> difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver with 
> the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.
> 
> John H
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are 
often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please 
edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, 
aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users 
who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to 
abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, 
Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, 
USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF 
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR 
TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE 
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE 
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@i...> 
wrote:
> Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the same 
> image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there is a 
> difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver with 
> the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.
> 
> John H

Amen!  Especially for matte papers, since both use the same matte ink. For matte papers 
does the hardware of 2400 make a difference over a 2200 with a RIP?

Martin

Another difference--there is the third black in the 2400.  FYI, the 
2400 uses inks (for "neutral," BW, matte prints) in the following 
order:  LLK, MK, LK, LC, LM, Y -- at least in my experience with a 
few hundred prints.  So, I assume the dithering (etc.) is different 
from a two-ink printer.  I haven't done measurements of ink use, but 
I find it prodigious.  I don't think a 13x19, however, uses anything 
like $4 of ink.  (I am particularly irked by the use of C and M in 
the cleaning cycles and have already replaced both cartridges.)  All 
that said, I'm crazy about the printer.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mxgo95747" 
<mxgo95747@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mr_Misty_44" 
<jharvey@i...> 
> wrote:
> > Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the 
same 
> > image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there 
is a 
> > difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver 
with 
> > the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.
> > 
> > John H
> 
> Amen!  Especially for matte papers, since both use the same matte 
ink. For matte papers 

> does the hardware of 2400 make a difference over a 2200 with a RIP?
> 
> Martin

We still don't have any answer to his question? Especially: QTR-2200 vs QTR - 2400
This is an importaint issue for hundreds of people, including me. The big printers aren't 
out yet for us to test. But there are those of you with these and the 4800's.

John


e:

> Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the same 
> image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there is a 
> difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver with 
> the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.
> 
> John H

I have hesitated to post a response to this question, specifically 
because I do not have direct experience with the 2400 or 4800.  So, 
this is only a semi-educated opinion.  With that disclaimer, here 
goes.

Most drivers will only give you a limited amout of control over 
output, whether color or monochrome.  If the driver delivers the B&W 
performance you want, you're in luck, because it sounds from 
descriptions on this site like the new ABW mode is pretty easy and 
intuitive. 

But regardless of the inkset chosen, I would expect a full featured 
B&W RIP to be able to give better control over ink usage, ink mix and 
final output.  Of course, the dithering algorithms are different 
between the Epson driver and the most popular RIPs for B&W (IJC/OPM, 
QTR, etc), and this can be an important factor in the final printed 
output.  I'm most familiar with IJC/OPM, though I also own and use 
QTR.  With IJC, I can build any profile I want, so I would expect to 
have more control over the output, inks used, etc.  I can add or 
remove ink and tonality at any point in the tonal scale.  It is 
probably a lot more work too, and whether it would be worth it or not 
is a question I can't answer.  But I would expect more control with a 
good RIP.

That doesn't answer the question but does provide some food for 
thought.

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> We still don't have any answer to his question? Especially: QTR-
2200 vs QTR - 2400
> This is an importaint issue for hundreds of people, including me. 
The big printers aren't 
> out yet for us to test. But there are those of you with these and 
the 4800's.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> e:
> > Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the 
same 
> > image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there 
is a 
> > difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver 
with 

> > the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.
> > 
> > John H

That doesn't answer the question but does provide some food for
thought.


Right, we all agree on that from experiece. The question is about the direct 
comparision of the same monocrome rip with these two inksets and printer 
mechanisms. In other words how much more affective is having the added 
light grey of the K3, compared to using the light cyan and light magenta 
components through QTR. One thing for sure, I have no metamerism at ALL 
with the original UC inkset used this way. So, I'm not worried about that, only 
dmax and grey value smoothness.

The light gray inks in the k3 inkset are not neutral and also require  
the use of the light cyan and light magenta inks to generate neutrality.

On Jul 23, 2005, at 12:02 PM, john dean wrote:

> That doesn't answer the question but does provide some food for
> thought.
>
>
> Right, we all agree on that from experiece. The question is about  
> the direct
> comparision of the same monocrome rip with these two inksets and  
> printer
> mechanisms. In other words how much more affective is having the added
> light grey of the K3, compared to using the light cyan and light  
> magenta
> components through QTR. One thing for sure, I have no metamerism at  
> ALL
> with the original UC inkset used this way. So, I'm not worried  
> about that, only
> dmax and grey value smoothness.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And a touch of yellow ink.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl Schofield" <scho@...>


The light gray inks in the k3 inkset are not neutral and also require  
the use of the light cyan and light magenta inks to generate neutrality.

Hi John,

The answer is a bit hypothetical at the moment.  I've had a very limited
look at the 4800 and none at the 2400.  But all-in-all the difference boils 
down to the addition of a light-light-black.  Everything else is pretty much
the same (at least for 4000 --> 4800).  The LLK will give smoother highlights
at least for warm tone prints.  But to make a cool print the same LC and LM
inks are used in the highlights so they are probably not very different than
before.  The 2400 has some significant benefits in that the heads are much
larger -- 180 jets/ink rather than 96 jets/ink -- and also the dropsizes are
somewhat smaller.  This ought to help in speed.

I don't know how you'd quantify the difference -- the new printers are probably
able to make smoother prints.  But it depends how critically you look at them
whether you'd notice the difference.

There is also the issue that they are new inks which reportedly handle
glossy media better than before.  The "gloss differential" is probably better
because the LLK ink can be used in the very light areas of the print i.e. some
of the benefit of gloss optimizer.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> We still don't have any answer to his question? Especially: QTR-2200 vs QTR - 
2400
> This is an importaint issue for hundreds of people, including me. The big printers 
aren't 

> out yet for us to test. But there are those of you with these and the 4800's.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> e:
> > Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the same 
> > image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there is a 
> > difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver with 
> > the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.
> > 
> > John H

Thanks Roy,

That was very useful. I realize this is new to everyone and no one has had 
time to do extensive comparison tests yet. But, what you said about the 
neutral prints probably not showing that much of a difference is very revealing 
to me and makes sense since carbon is so warm in all its dilutions. That is 
interesting because I have always found my sepia and very warm QTR 
ultrachrome prints to be the richest in tonality all things being equal. 

So, I will not rush out to sell my 10K quite yet to buy the 9800 I don't think 
because I'm not not much of a glossy media printer in the first place, 
especially for monochrome.

I will be testing QTR and Eye One with the Piezzotone K7s soon. That could 
be really be something and, allow us Mac users to avoid pc's altogether. Now 
wouldn't that be nice?

John





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <
roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> The answer is a bit hypothetical at the moment.  I've had a very limited
> look at the 4800 and none at the 2400.  But all-in-all the difference boils 
> down to the addition of a light-light-black.  Everything else is pretty much
> the same (at least for 4000 --> 4800).  The LLK will give smoother highlights
> at least for warm tone prints.  But to make a cool print the same LC and LM
> inks are used in the highlights so they are probably not very different than
> before.  The 2400 has some significant benefits in that the heads are much
> larger -- 180 jets/ink rather than 96 jets/ink -- and also the dropsizes are
> somewhat smaller.  This ought to help in speed.
> 
> I don't know how you'd quantify the difference -- the new printers are 
probably
> able to make smoother prints.  But it depends how critically you look at them
> whether you'd notice the difference.
> 
> There is also the issue that they are new inks which reportedly handle
> glossy media better than before.  The "gloss differential" is probably better
> because the LLK ink can be used in the very light areas of the print i.e. 
some
> of the benefit of gloss optimizer.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > We still don't have any answer to his question? Especially: QTR-2200 vs 
QTR - 
> 2400
> > This is an importaint issue for hundreds of people, including me. The big 
printers 

> aren't 
> > out yet for us to test. But there are those of you with these and the 4800's.
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > e:
> > > Has anyone with a 2200 and a 2400 done any side by sides of the same 
> > > image. I'm using QTR with my 2200 and would like to know if there is a 
> > > difference between prints using this or IJC and the Epson Driver with 
> > > the 2400? For that matter a 2400 using QTR.
> > > 
> > > John H

Hi Roy,

As I said in an earlier post, with the R2400 the neutral toning is done with 
light magenta and light cyan througout the whole range 0-250, and yellow is 
also used from 5-250. Amounts of toning are variable, but at 210 for example 
(where only the smallest dots are used for each ink) 72% of the ink was llk, 
16% lm, 10% lc, and 1% Y. At 250, the llk was 82%, with 9% lm, 7.5% lc, and 
1.5% Y.

The PK ink is used from 0-90, the lk ink from 0-170, and the llk ink from 
20-250. No inks
are used at 255 unless you check the Highlight Point Shift box.


At lower levels where PK, lk, and llk are used, I can't compare proportions 
since different ink size drops are used, and I'm not certain how their 
volumes compare. No EscP manual yet for the R2400.

Bob Frost.

PS You need to update your prog again for the latest inks!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>

 But to make a cool print the same LC and LM
inks are used in the highlights so they are probably not very different than
before.

Bob,


> ... the R2400 the neutral toning is done with
> light magenta and light cyan througout the whole range 0-250, 
> and yellow is also used from 5-250. Amounts of toning are variable, 
> but at 210 for example... 72% of the ink was llk,
> 16% lm, 10% lc, and 1% Y. 

> At 250, the llk was 82%, with 9% lm, 7.5% lc, and 1.5% Y. 
> ...

Are the numbers you posted for one of the rips with the 2400 or with the
Advanced B&W mode?

At http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4800_ABW_5-10_1600scan.jpg I've posted a
scan of a 4800 5% and 10% test strip that was printed with the ABW mode.
The 5%, which I think is 242 on the scale you're using, seems to be mostly
color inks.

The bottom line, of course, is how the prints do in fade testing.  I have
one going now that should show results by the end of August.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Those figures are for the R2400 with Epson driver in AdvancedB&W mode.

Wilhelm has longevity ratings of the R2400 AdvancedB&W prints at between 78 
and 200 years on different papers UNFRAMED :-

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/WIR_Ep_R2400_2005_06_30.pdf

The normal color prints are rated at 34-68 years UNFRAMED.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>

Are the numbers you posted for one of the rips with the 2400 or with the
Advanced B&W mode?

At http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4800_ABW_5-10_1600scan.jpg I've posted a
scan of a 4800 5% and 10% test strip that was printed with the ABW mode.
The 5%, which I think is 242 on the scale you're using, seems to be mostly
color inks.

The bottom line, of course, is how the prints do in fade testing.  I have
one going now that should show results by the end of August.

> 
> Wilhelm has longevity ratings of the R2400 AdvancedB&W prints at between
> 78 and 200 years on different papers UNFRAMED :-
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/WIR_Ep_R2400_2005_06_30.pdf
> 
> The normal color prints are rated at 34-68 years UNFRAMED.

See the note at the top right on page 3 of his PDF.  It says, in part: "The
Display Permanence Ratings given here are based on long-term testing with
the previous generation of UltraChrome inks."

So, there is nothing new here.  These are 2200 results.

The Wilhelm quote continues: "WIR testing to date with UltraChrome K3 inks
indicates that significant increases in Display Permanence Ratings for
black-and-white prints can be expected because the three-level highly-stable
carbon pigment based black inks in the UltraChrome K3 inkset largely replace
the cyan, magenta, and yellow color inks ..."

OK, so the 2400 uses more of the LK and LLK than the 2200, I assume.

But "carbon" pigments?

The 2400 Material Safety Data Sheet indicates that the LK ink has ">2%"
carbon black and ">2% 'Proprietary dyes and pigments'."  (The LLK is ">1%"
each.)

This is an interesting change, however.  The 7600 MSDS has LK having ">1%"
carbon and ">9%" "Proprietary dyes and pigments."  So, they seem to be
moving in the direction of carbon, even if they are still not predominantly
carbon pigments and, perhaps, should not be called that.

(To get to a list of the MSDSs, just search "MSDS" on the US Epson site.)

In footnote 1 Wilhelm repeats that while the UC and UC K3 color permanence
ratings are similar, "with black and white prints, the display permanence
ratings with UltraChrome K3 inks are significantly improved because the
three-level, highly-stable carbon pigment based black inks ... are used over
the entire tonal scale and largely replace the less stable cyan, magenta,
and yellow color inks ..."

Note also (as indicated on his FN 2) Wilhelm measures densities of 0.6 and
1.0.  As such, his tests miss the highlights, where the scans seem to
indicate the prints are color prints.  Wilhelm's testing may also miss the
OBA "yellowing."

Whether these misstatements are material will have to wait for further fade
testing.

I think I'll e-mail WIR and see if I get a reaction from them. 


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> 
> Are the numbers you posted for one of the rips with the 2400 or with the
> Advanced B&W mode?
> 
> At http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4800_ABW_5-10_1600scan.jpg I've posted a
> scan of a 4800 5% and 10% test strip that was printed with the ABW mode.
> The 5%, which I think is 242 on the scale you're using, seems to be mostly
> color inks.
> 
> The bottom line, of course, is how the prints do in fade testing.  I have
> one going now that should show results by the end of August.
>

And he's got 310 years for black and white ultrachrome on Somerset with the 
9600 and Premier Art spray behind regular glass. What are we to make of 
that?  I think all of this UC stuff should be coated with uv spray or varnish, 
color and mono. I really think we are going to find out it is a necessity and 
simply a part of the process. 




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <
paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > 
> > Wilhelm has longevity ratings of the R2400 AdvancedB&W prints at 
between
> > 78 and 200 years on different papers UNFRAMED :-
> > 
> > http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/
WIR_Ep_R2400_2005_06_30.pdf
> > 
> > The normal color prints are rated at 34-68 years UNFRAMED.
> 
> See the note at the top right on page 3 of his PDF.  It says, in part: "The
> Display Permanence Ratings given here are based on long-term testing 
with
> the previous generation of UltraChrome inks."
> 
> So, there is nothing new here.  These are 2200 results.
> 
> The Wilhelm quote continues: "WIR testing to date with UltraChrome K3 inks
> indicates that significant increases in Display Permanence Ratings for
> black-and-white prints can be expected because the three-level highly-
stable
> carbon pigment based black inks in the UltraChrome K3 inkset largely 
replace
> the cyan, magenta, and yellow color inks ..."
> 
> OK, so the 2400 uses more of the LK and LLK than the 2200, I assume.
> 
> But "carbon" pigments?
> 
> The 2400 Material Safety Data Sheet indicates that the LK ink has ">2%"
> carbon black and ">2% 'Proprietary dyes and pigments'."  (The LLK is ">1%"
> each.)
> 
> This is an interesting change, however.  The 7600 MSDS has LK having ">
1%"
> carbon and ">9%" "Proprietary dyes and pigments."  So, they seem to be
> moving in the direction of carbon, even if they are still not predominantly
> carbon pigments and, perhaps, should not be called that.
> 
> (To get to a list of the MSDSs, just search "MSDS" on the US Epson site.)
> 
> In footnote 1 Wilhelm repeats that while the UC and UC K3 color 
permanence
> ratings are similar, "with black and white prints, the display permanence
> ratings with UltraChrome K3 inks are significantly improved because the
> three-level, highly-stable carbon pigment based black inks ... are used over
> the entire tonal scale and largely replace the less stable cyan, magenta,
> and yellow color inks ..."
> 
> Note also (as indicated on his FN 2) Wilhelm measures densities of 0.6 and
> 1.0.  As such, his tests miss the highlights, where the scans seem to
> indicate the prints are color prints.  Wilhelm's testing may also miss the
> OBA "yellowing."
> 
> Whether these misstatements are material will have to wait for further fade
> testing.
> 
> I think I'll e-mail WIR and see if I get a reaction from them. 
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...>
> > 
> > Are the numbers you posted for one of the rips with the 2400 or with the
> > Advanced B&W mode?
> > 
> > At http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4800_ABW_5-10_1600scan.jpg I've 
posted a
> > scan of a 4800 5% and 10% test strip that was printed with the ABW 
mode.

> > The 5%, which I think is 242 on the scale you're using, seems to be mostly
> > color inks.
> > 
> > The bottom line, of course, is how the prints do in fade testing.  I have
> > one going now that should show results by the end of August.
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> And he's got 310 years for black and white ultrachrome on Somerset 
with the 
> 9600 and Premier Art spray behind regular glass. What are we to make 
of 
> that?  I think all of this UC stuff should be coated with uv spray or 
varnish, 
> color and mono. I really think we are going to find out it is a 
necessity and 
> simply a part of the process. 

Nuts to that idea amigo; you wanna breath that garbage for the next few 
years, have at it-I'll settle for "uncoated behind glass", numbers. 
That pretty much covers the rest of my lifspan, the rest of most 
buyer's lifespans and most of their next generation. Enough already!

Steven Karafyllakis

Paul,

My figures for the R2400 are the proportions of dots of each of the inks in 
the Epson printer file (using print-to-file) and decoding it with Roy 
Harrington's help.

If someone makes a 1" square patch of 240/240/240 on a 4800 using the Epson 
print driver in AdvancedB&W mode, prints it to file, and emails me the file, 
I will have a look at it. A full grayscale is no good, because the 
interweaving makes it very difficult to analyse (part of the head is 
printing one patch while the rest is printing another). Separate patches of 
each value make life easier.

Looking again at the patches you scanned, it seems to me that the llk ink is 
a continous cover of the paper - so no 'dots' visible - while the few color 
dots that are easily visible are simply on top of the continous llk. At the 
edge of the patches, the continous grey of the patches changes to the 
lighter color of the paper.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>

At http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4800_ABW_5-10_1600scan.jpg I've posted a
scan of a 4800 5% and 10% test strip that was printed with the ABW mode.
The 5%, which I think is 242 on the scale you're using, seems to be mostly
color inks.

That is the difference between us. I would certainly like my prints to outlive me 
by as long as possible. I have a friend who said the exact same thing 20 years 
ago about her 20x24 polaroids done in Cambridge.  Now they are green and 
she wishes she had them back , but they are gone. The type c prints died just 
about as quickly. I've looked at a lot of fine prints that are from the 16th - 19th 
centuries and I"m glad they outlived their authors. As to sprays and uv 
varnishes, they are available in non-toxic non-solvent forms now so that is no 
reason to avoid them. We live in a throw away culture so that is what most 
people respond to and that is fine for 90% of the photo based work being 
produced. That work shouldn't last anyway and take up valueable earth space 
above ground. Wilhelm's figures could very well be off by 50%, they have 
been in the past. Finally, these coatings are far more important for color work 
OR monochrome work that contains a color content. As Pauls numbers about 
"carbon content" in ultrachrome pointed out from Epson's own data sheets, 
there is carbon and then there is carbon...

> Nuts to that idea amigo; you wanna breath that garbage for the next few 
> years, have at it-I'll settle for "uncoated behind glass", numbers. 
> That pretty much covers the rest of my lifspan, the rest of most 
> buyer's lifespans and most of their next generation. Enough already!
> 
> Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> That is the difference between us. I would certainly like my 
prints to outlive me 
> by as long as possible. 

As would I, John, but I am not willing to get obsessive about it, 
and I most certainly am not willing to risk shortening my own 
productive years to do it. 

>> I have a friend who said the exact same thing 20 years 
> ago about her 20x24 polaroids done in Cambridge.  Now they are 
green and 
> she wishes she had them back , but they are gone. The type c 
prints died just 
> about as quickly. 

 I seriously doubt that overspraying either would have made them 
archival, and nobody ever made any archival claims about either 
Polaroid or C-prints. Both of those media are inherently incapable 
of being so. 
If there was an evaluation system in place back then, we were kept 
unaware of it, obviously for good reason. Which in turn led to 
Wilhelm & RIT testing, etc. We now have a much better idea of where 
things stand, so I have to ask myself: if a no color-component 
carbon ink gives a number of around 150-200 years of DISPLAY life 
(nobody interested in making artwork actually last that long keeps a 
piece on display constantly), how much trouble am I willing to go to 
for twice that? Obviously less than you.

>I've looked at a lot of fine prints that are from the 16th - 19th 
> centuries and I"m glad they outlived their authors. As to sprays 
and uv 
> varnishes, they are available in non-toxic non-solvent forms now 
so that is no 
> reason to avoid them.

Non-toxic? Are you sure? Who's information and claims are you 
trusting now? I think we're both old enough to have seen many such 
claims by industry/FDA/medical establishment get proven wrong, 
sometimes in just a few years, but almost always after a 
considerable amount of damage has been done. Do you really trust 
them?

>  We live in a throw away culture so that is what most 
> people respond to and that is fine for 90% of the photo based work 
being 
> produced. That work shouldn't last anyway and take up valueable 
earth space 
> above ground. 

Considering the volume being produced today, I'd put the number that 
deserves an early death even higher. But I notice we're both 
assuming that OUR output deserves to be in the small percentage that 
lasts forever????

>Wilhelm's figures could very well be off by 50%, they have 
> been in the past. 

Granted

>Finally, these coatings are far more important for color work 
> OR monochrome work that contains a color content. As Pauls numbers 
about 
> "carbon content" in ultrachrome pointed out from Epson's own data 
sheets, 
> there is carbon and then there is carbon...

All of this material has improved hugely in just the last 
generation; in another generation concerns about longevity may 
become purely academic. In the meantime, I'll take the approach of 
minimizing the color content, and reccomending display behind glass 
only. You do whatever makes sense to you, John, just do me the favor 
of not suggesting across-the-board spraying of all our work again, 
the hair on my arms stiffens just thinking about it... oh, no, 
sorry, that's overspray from the varnish...

Steve Karafyllakis

> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Nuts to that idea amigo; you wanna breath that garbage for the 
next few 
> > years, have at it-I'll settle for "uncoated behind glass", 
numbers. 
> > That pretty much covers the rest of my lifspan, the rest of most 
> > buyer's lifespans and most of their next generation. Enough 
already!
> > 
> > Steven Karafyllakis

You don't have to spray. You can simply paint it on if you like.

It appears that even in ABW the Epson driver is still using some of all
three colors CMY.  Paul's scan seems to show this too.

BTW, you can load any of the Epson drivers in Windows.  Just download the
driver, and install it.  Then pretend that one of your printers is the 4800
for instance, or I think you can assign it to the parallel port.  Anyway you
can do the tests you are doing without actually having the printer since
all the data is going to the file anyway.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" <bob@f...> 
wrote:

> Paul,
> 
> My figures for the R2400 are the proportions of dots of each of the inks in 
> the Epson printer file (using print-to-file) and decoding it with Roy 
> Harrington's help.
> 
> If someone makes a 1" square patch of 240/240/240 on a 4800 using the Epson 
> print driver in AdvancedB&W mode, prints it to file, and emails me the file, 
> I will have a look at it. A full grayscale is no good, because the 
> interweaving makes it very difficult to analyse (part of the head is 
> printing one patch while the rest is printing another). Separate patches of 
> each value make life easier.
> 
> Looking again at the patches you scanned, it seems to me that the llk ink is 
> a continous cover of the paper - so no 'dots' visible - while the few color 
> dots that are easily visible are simply on top of the continous llk. At the 
> edge of the patches, the continous grey of the patches changes to the 
> lighter color of the paper.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...>
> 
> At http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4800_ABW_5-10_1600scan.jpg I've posted a
> scan of a 4800 5% and 10% test strip that was printed with the ABW mode.
> The 5%, which I think is 242 on the scale you're using, seems to be mostly
> color inks.

john dean wrote:


> Wilhelm's figures could very well be off by 50%, they have 
> been in the past.

I'm just taking an atopical diversion here, but since archival 
properties get discussed here fairly obsessively, I might propose that 
Wilhelm's numbers are perhaps best understood as unitless. I know that 
the unit "years" gets attached to the results, but I'd rather interpret 
this to mean "on order of unit years."

I think what Wilhelm provides are (a) testing with a consistent 
methodology resulting in comparable results from test to test, and (b) 
testing in which inconsistent methodology is documented. The value of 
this (at least to those who seek a genuine understanding of the value of 
the tests) is hard to emphasize strongly enough. I'm definitely showing 
my geek genes here, but I'd much rather have a paper in which everything 
is described in tedious detail, with measurements, and with math; than I 
would read hand-waving about how things 'looked' by eye on an 
artificially aged print, to a tester who also can't describe the 
emission spectrum of the lights used to age it. The former is of far 
more value than the unit-bound results (the longevity or permanence 
ratings given in years) alone would suggest.

Now, back to your regularly-scheduled varnish debate....

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

> ... As to sprays and uv varnishes, they are available in non-toxic 
>non-solvent forms now so that is no reason to avoid them.

The Premier Art "Eco" coating did well in Wilhelm's tests.  I have not found
the water-based sprays as easy to deal with, but they do now appear to have
an aerosol that might be worth trying.  

(Today I'm just slapping matte [Alpha, 16 x 20 Windmill and Granary] prints
into frames with no spray at all.)

Only in part OT, a friend had his 9600 UC color prints laminated, and they
look like Cibachromes.  In Gallery Los Olivos, that is what the somewhat
educated viewers seem to assume if they don't know what the actual process
is.  What surprised me is that the photographer (John Fitzpatrick) had the
laminating done at Kinkos, and while it is not my style, the prints look
really good.  


> ... As Paul's numbers about
> "carbon content" in ultrachrome pointed out from Epson's own data sheets,
> there is carbon and then there is carbon...

I think the bottom line is the fade test data.  I hope to have some results
in a month or so that will be indicative of some relative fade rates. 

There is also, of course, the question of how one defines "carbon" print, or
at what point the use of the term becomes, in effect, deceptive.  There have
been threads that suggest "ink" or "inkjet" should be in the name of the
prints most of us make, for example.  All of our inkjet "carbon pigment ink"
prints that are neutral have color pigments in them somewhere.  I've been
using a general approach that if the substance of the image is
"predominantly" carbon, then the label might be a useful description.  Few
things are 100% of anything.  

(In a previous life, I was involved with Federal rules that, for example,
with "down" products, allowed 20% feathers.)  In general, simplification can
have positive and negative results.  Search costs often limit markets.
Lowering search costs is often key to better market performance.  One can
argue that simplified labels can help with this issue.  (How one should
define actionable "deception" was central to untold hours of debate among
consumer protection types.)

Bob's numbers combined with the vagueness of how the MSDSs are worded
relating to LK and LLK composition, make it entirely possible that 2400
prints are close to being half carbon, even in the highlights.  If the fade
data do not show a material difference in relative performance, then the
issue is probably moot, in my view.

One can speculate about why Epson puts yellow in the mix, whether in
separate jets (like the 2400) or in the design of the LK particles
themselves.  (I wonder why the previous generation of UC LK had much less
relative carbon disclosed on the MSDS.)  

Frankly, I can think of several reasons to do this.  The most interesting
possibility is for lower Delta-E.  My old FSN ink mix achieved its relative
lack of "warming" by utilizing a counter-shift strategy based on yellow dye
+ cyan pigments that were added to achieve a counter-color shift that would
offset the inherent color shift of the inks that, otherwise, was very
visible.  Carbon does still yellow.  I have wondered here and elsewhere
whether it would be useful to implement a yellow-pigment-based counter-shift
strategy in the UT inks.  But, for the UT inksets, I have opted for
relatively higher fade resistance and just letting the carbon warm.  I think
the color shifts are consistent with traditional expectations and not too
significant.  

I have, however, noted that in a previous test, one version of a UC-based
UT7 appeared to achieved the best delta-e, while giving up bit of
performance in the density fade numbers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Let's bag the varnish debate, it goes nowhere. I'm more interested 
in actually being able to do what I mentioned: monochrome printing 
witout a color component, but with 2 or 3 K inks, not BO. I've been 
printing using the QTR 'warm' curves which use only the 2 K inks. 
The results are quite good, but getting an LK that matches and 
blends seamlessly with the tone of Eboni has been a problem. I 
started by blending UT-7 LKN with standard LK and adding a few drops 
of 7600 magenta to get the tone matched. Works fine, except for the 
obvious fly in the ointment the UT-7 LKN has toners in it, and I'm 
adding more. At least you don't see Cyan/Magenta dots under a loupe 
ala R2400 ABW. What's got me bugged now, however is that I'm seeing 
signs of ink separation in the LK damper. After sitting for 3 weeks 
the prints I'm getting are distinctly yellow-green, a problem I ran 
into a lot with UT-1 and the 7500. 

So, how do I get a neutral LK with no color? An LK version of Eboni 
would be ideal, at least for matte papers. Is that possible? Has 
anyone tried it?

Steven Karafyllakis

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff 
<medkeff@g...> wrote:
> john dean wrote:
> 
> 
> > Wilhelm's figures could very well be off by 50%, they have 
> > been in the past.
> 
> I'm just taking an atopical diversion here, but since archival 
> properties get discussed here fairly obsessively, I might propose 
that 
> Wilhelm's numbers are perhaps best understood as unitless. I know 
that 
> the unit "years" gets attached to the results, but I'd rather 
interpret 
> this to mean "on order of unit years."
> 
> I think what Wilhelm provides are (a) testing with a consistent 
> methodology resulting in comparable results from test to test, and 
(b) 
> testing in which inconsistent methodology is documented. The value 
of 
> this (at least to those who seek a genuine understanding of the 
value of 
> the tests) is hard to emphasize strongly enough. I'm definitely 
showing 
> my geek genes here, but I'd much rather have a paper in which 
everything 
> is described in tedious detail, with measurements, and with math; 
than I 
> would read hand-waving about how things 'looked' by eye on an 
> artificially aged print, to a tester who also can't describe the 
> emission spectrum of the lights used to age it. The former is of 
far 
> more value than the unit-bound results (the longevity or 
permanence 

> ratings given in years) alone would suggest.
> 
> Now, back to your regularly-scheduled varnish debate....
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska

Steve,

I ran into the same problem with the UT7 LKN ink in my 4000.  Started  
getting yellowish grays, but ink from the cart tested OK.  Why is  
this ink breaking down in the damper and/or lines?  Impossible to get  
a consistent tone with unstable inks.

Carl

On Jul 24, 2005, at 1:10 PM, Steven Karafyllakis wrote:
> What's got me bugged now, however is that I'm seeing
> signs of ink separation in the LK damper. After sitting for 3 weeks
> the prints I'm getting are distinctly yellow-green, a problem I ran
> into a lot with UT-1 and the 7500.
>
> So, how do I get a neutral LK with no color? An LK version of Eboni
> would be ideal, at least for matte papers. Is that possible? Has
> anyone tried it?
>
> Steven Karafyllakis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeff,
 
> ... since archival properties get discussed here fairly obsessively...

True, we B&W printers have that tendency.

> I might propose that
> Wilhelm's numbers are perhaps best understood as unitless ...

I agree.  As relative ratings, I think they are valuable information that
will help all of us. 


> I think what Wilhelm provides are (a) testing with a consistent
> methodology resulting in comparable results from test to test, and (b)
> testing in which inconsistent methodology is documented...

Yes, hopefully, and to the extent known.  

What I'm looking at in my highlight fade tests is whether the methodology
gives us relative results that are valid for those highlights that appeared
in my scans to have substantial color ink contest.  Wilhelm appears to use
0.60 and 1.0 starting density patches for testing.  I'm curious if this
misses an important divergence of relative performance in the highlights.

With the Epson Archival inkset, thought by many to be the most archival
desktop inkset, I found that the black reacted in my tests like a hybrid
pigment-dye ink, fading significantly faster than the UC PK and MK.  (The
quad inksets I've made from the Epson Archival inkset have also not
performed as well as those made from UC and MIS pigments.)  One would not
get that impression from the published tests that use only relatively
midtone test points.  

The more information the better.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:

> 
> So, how do I get a neutral LK with no color? An LK version of Eboni 
> would be ideal, at least for matte papers. Is that possible? Has 
> anyone tried it?
> 
> Steven Karafyllakis


Working on it, hit a snag with getting the reducers.

My original theory with respect to the old UT-1 and the 7500 was that the
magenta's tendency to stick to things disproportionately was part of the
problem -- the large format ink lines being what distinguished them from the
desktop units.  Subsequently the dampers seem to (also?) be implicated.

But, all the pigments have unique combinations of characteristics.  It may
be that any pigmented ink will show some instability if left still for long,
with the blended ones showing this in color shifts.  The desktop units
agitate the pigs with every printing job.  The large format printers don't.
So, combining the large format ink lines, dampers, and lack of cart
agitation would seem to inevitably make them need more continuous use for
top stability.

I suppose the ultimate solution is a single, perfect-tone, carbon pigment.
That doesn't seem to exist at this point, and the "perfect" tone would be
different for every user and paper. 

For toned (more neutral) carbon, a single pigment type per jet with drops so
small the color contrast is not visible might be the second best solution.
For B&W only, low gamut colors would help hold down the color contrast among
the dots.

I've found one non-inkjet blue pigment that is relatively low in gamut and
offsets quite nicely the carbon warmth by itself -- Daniel Smith's
indanthrone blue.  I have used it in inkjet printing, and the fade tests
were excellent if just a hair less than the best new UT neutral pigments.
However, this pigment is going to need more processing than I suspect we can
give it without expensive equipment.  Whether we'd be able to convince a
pigment company to make it available in an appropriate form is debatable,
but such is on my rather long list of things to do.

For now, and probably forever, our solutions are compromises.  I try to make
sure my large format printers are turned on at least once a week.  I think
MIS recommends a program that prints a purge page daily even for desktop
units.

I'd like a spectrophotometer built into the printer and software that
automatically takes care of the problems on the fly -- all at the C86 price
point, of course.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
> Schofield
> Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 9:32 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Removing color content(was:Wilhelm 2400 data )
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I ran into the same problem with the UT7 LKN ink in my 4000.  Started
> getting yellowish grays, but ink from the cart tested OK.  Why is
> this ink breaking down in the damper and/or lines?  Impossible to get
> a consistent tone with unstable inks.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Jul 24, 2005, at 1:10 PM, Steven Karafyllakis wrote:
> > What's got me bugged now, however is that I'm seeing
> > signs of ink separation in the LK damper. After sitting for 3 weeks
> > the prints I'm getting are distinctly yellow-green, a problem I ran
> > into a lot with UT-1 and the 7500.
> >
> > So, how do I get a neutral LK with no color? An LK version of Eboni
> > would be ideal, at least for matte papers. Is that possible? Has
> > anyone tried it?
> >
> > Steven Karafyllakis
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
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Great, I hope you can get it worked out!

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting" 
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > So, how do I get a neutral LK with no color? An LK version of Eboni 
> > would be ideal, at least for matte papers. Is that possible? Has 
> > anyone tried it?
> > 
> > Steven Karafyllakis
> 
> 
> Working on it, hit a snag with getting the reducers.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> ...I'm more interested 
> in actually being able to do what I mentioned: monochrome printing 
> witout a color component...  

snip 

> ... I 
> started by blending UT-7 LKN with standard LK and adding a few drops 
> of 7600 magenta to get the tone matched.

Steven, the attempted solution doesn't meed the desired end anyway. I
think there is a difference between mixing color pigs in with the
carbon directly in the solution, and mixing it in via dots with an
additional head. There is an image structure difference, and I suspect
a longevity difference and metamerism difference, but there has been
little discussion of those differences and they haven't really been
explored in depth.

Based on your post I think you favor the "mixed in" approach, but to
be clear, you actually are utilizing a color component.

One note of interest. Much to Bill Bergh's dismay, the IJM's Carbon
Sepia inkset, which he designed as supposedly pure carbon, fell
slightly short of the other sets that do have color pigs mixed into
them for hue, in their RIT tests. There seemed to be some positive
symbiotic effect on longevity.
Clearly there is more going on with mixing inks than some of us might
think at a glance...
Tyler

Roy,

Thanks for that tip. I had assumed that since during printer installation 
you are asked to turn the printer on while the program checks it out and 
sets up the port, you wouldn't be able to install a 4800 for example without 
having one.

I'll try it on my old computer - getting a bit neurotic about having too 
many programs and drivers on my main one!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>

BTW, you can load any of the Epson drivers in Windows.  Just download the
driver, and install it.  Then pretend that one of your printers is the 4800
for instance, or I think you can assign it to the parallel port.  Anyway you
can do the tests you are doing without actually having the printer since
all the data is going to the file anyway.

Let's bag the amatuers mixing of pigments  to achieve unknown results 
debate becaue that is really going nowhere when they don't have a clue as to 
what they are doing.

geez....

On Jul 24, 2005, at 1:57 PM, john dean wrote:

> Let's bag the amatuers mixing of pigments  to achieve unknown results
>  debate becaue that is really going nowhere when they don't have a 
> clue as to
>  what they are doing.
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> Let's bag the amatuers mixing of pigments  to achieve unknown 
results 
> debate becaue that is really going nowhere when they don't have a 
clue as to 
> what they are doing.

In reference too...???

This is a great place to learn.  Everyone has to start a zero.  But, through information exchange, you don't have to stay there.
 
Tom Baker

dfaprinting <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
wrote:
> Let's bag the amatuers mixing of pigments to achieve unknown 
results 
> debate becaue that is really going nowhere when they don't have a 
clue as to 
> what they are doing.

In reference too...???




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler;

You're right, I do prefer the 'mixed in' approach to the extent it's 
possible for neutral B&W, and yes, the differences between the two 
could stand more discussion. I find looking closely at a B&W image 
and finding it's made up of color dots almost as off-putting as 
microbanding. While it may not be a mechanical flaw like 
microbanding, it is still a reminder that this print was made by a 
machine. And while I can adjust to that at one level, I also don't 
want to be reminded of it in that way.

> think there is a difference between mixing color pigs in with the
> carbon directly in the solution, and mixing it in via dots with an
> additional head. There is an image structure difference, and I 
suspect
> a longevity difference and metamerism difference, but there has 
been
> little discussion of those differences and they haven't really been
> explored in depth.
> 
> Based on your post I think you favor the "mixed in" approach, but 
to
> be clear, you actually are utilizing a color component.

I've always aknowledged as much-now how do we get rid of it, if 
indeed removing all color does give better permanence?  I'm assuming 
it would, but I remember well the earlier sets of Quads-the diluted 
inks faded/colorshifted fastest, so in the end two or three 
dilutiuons of Eboni may not be the panacea I'm hoping for.

> 
> One note of interest. Much to Bill Bergh's dismay, the IJM's Carbon
> Sepia inkset, which he designed as supposedly pure carbon, fell
> slightly short of the other sets that do have color pigs mixed into
> them for hue, in their RIT tests. There seemed to be some positive
> symbiotic effect on longevity.
> Clearly there is more going on with mixing inks than some of us 
might
> think at a glance...
> Tyler

Seems the only thing that's certain is that we need more testing! 
Good thing the FDA isn't involved we might not live long enough (g)

Steven

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Roy,
> 
> Thanks for that tip. I had assumed that since during printer 
installation 
> you are asked to turn the printer on while the program checks it 
out and 
> sets up the port, you wouldn't be able to install a 4800 for 
example without 
> having one.
> 
> I'll try it on my old computer - getting a bit neurotic about 
having too 
> many programs and drivers on my main one!
> 
> Bob Frost.


And that's why it's nice to have an old machine around, or at least 
an extra hard drive to trade in or out as needed. Wish Windows would 
boot from a firewire drive like OSX, that would make life so much 
easier!!! I've tried to do that with PC machines that say they will 
boot from USB hard drives, but never had any luck with it actually 
working.

> ... Much to Bill Bergh's dismay, the IJM's Carbon
> Sepia inkset, which he designed as supposedly pure carbon, fell
> slightly short of the other sets that do have color pigs mixed into
> them for hue, in their RIT tests. There seemed to be some positive
> symbiotic effect on longevity.
>...

I never understood that either.  With the UT inksets the pure carbon is the
strongest in my fade testing.  Wilhelm also seems to be endorsing the
concept that carbon is the strongest of the pigments (relative to those in
the UC inkset).  That said, the cyan is extremely strong also.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > ... Much to Bill Bergh's dismay, the IJM's Carbon
> > Sepia inkset, which he designed as supposedly pure carbon, fell
> > slightly short of the other sets that do have color pigs mixed 
into
> > them for hue, in their RIT tests. There seemed to be some positive
> > symbiotic effect on longevity.
> >...
> 
> I never understood that either.  With the UT inksets the pure 
carbon is the
> strongest in my fade testing.  Wilhelm also seems to be endorsing 
the
> concept that carbon is the strongest of the pigments (relative to 
those in
> the UC inkset).  That said, the cyan is extremely strong also.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Surface area? With the particles spread that much thinner over the 
same area, there would be more particles exposed to the light/air. 
Well that's my guess anyway. Doesn't really explain why a mix works 
better.

Also brings up the question of BO prints. Do the lighter patches fade 
more quickly than the darker patches? That would be one way to check 
the surface area theory.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> Tyler;
> 
> You're right, I do prefer the 'mixed in' approach to the extent it's 
> possible for neutral B&W,

As a died in the wool mono quad ink user I have to agree. But I admit
to being a bit ideological about it. However the difference is not all
in my head...

> and yes, the differences between the two 
> could stand more discussion. I find looking closely at a B&W image 
> and finding it's made up of color dots almost as off-putting as 
> microbanding. While it may not be a mechanical flaw like 
> microbanding, it is still a reminder that this print was made by a 
> machine. And while I can adjust to that at one level, I also don't 
> want to be reminded of it in that way.

Again we agree, but as the printers evolve, these impressions may
become much less noticeable. I think the issue is more relevant since
the introduction of the UC inks with a light K, and solutions like
ImagePrint, and now QTR and IJC. As we all get more experience and
exposure to the K3 inks and smaller dots, things evolve again.

...
> > Based on your post I think you favor the "mixed in" approach, but 
> to
> > be clear, you actually are utilizing a color component.
> 
> I've always aknowledged as much-now how do we get rid of it,

Based in what I see around us available now, I don't think it's
possible. What we would be after is a single pigment or colorant of
some kind that is neutral on it's own. We already know from experience
that carbon in the manner it is currently used in ink is not it, it's
too warm.

But we are also experiencing a split in the B&W inkjet market place.
Some people favor what they perceive as a superior image structure
over little to no variable hue ability.
Others see no advantage to a lot of partitioned blacks, and favor the
ability to get multiple hued mono prints with some convenience. Still
others simply want decent color and B&W from the same ink set.
I'm just thinking out loud, it seems all theoretical at this point.
Your idea of an inkset with no colorants at all does seem intriguing,
maybe it's not possible right now. And you'll have to accept the image
hue you get, if you want it to stay true to your concept. I'm hearing
rumblings of white ink coming some day. I wonder if diluting your K
ink with that instead of clear carrier would be viable, or any different.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > ... Much to Bill Bergh's dismay, the IJM's Carbon
> > Sepia inkset, which he designed as supposedly pure carbon, fell
> > slightly short of the other sets that do have color pigs mixed into
> > them for hue, in their RIT tests. There seemed to be some positive
> > symbiotic effect on longevity.
> >...
> 
> I never understood that either...

I just figure there's a lot of ingredients in these inksets we know
nothing about that could have an impact. There has to be many
components that are not actually image forming, but simply allow the
inks to perform, deliver, sit well, ship well, taste good, etc..
Those have to have some impact on longevity, chemical robustness,
etc.. I have no idea what I'm talking about here.
Perhaps there is something in the Cone formula that has some slight
negative impact on longevity under a certain circumstance, and the
presence of the color pigment inhibits it a bit.
I'm sure you have a much better grasp on what's in this stuff than
most of us, it all seems a but mysterious.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:

> ...it all seems a but mysterious.

oops, a "bit" myterious.
A mysterious butt could be a good thing though.
Or not.
I don't know, maybe when I was younger.
Tyler

Paul Roark wrote:


>>... since archival properties get discussed here fairly obsessively...

> True, we B&W printers have that tendency.

Obsession is an appropriate approach to an issue like this, though. I 
call it like it is, but I don't mean to judge.


> I'm curious if this
> misses an important divergence of relative performance in the highlights.

That touches on two other valuable attributes of a documented 
methodology. The ability to repeat the test is the backbone of science 
and its applied forms such as engineering. The ability to design 
parameter-insensitive methodological controls is another; and this 
sounds like what you might be doing - checking for a vulnerability of 
Wilhelm's methodology using a technique in which all variables do not 
necessarily need to be solved in order to learn new information.

None of this is possible when tests do not include careful thought about 
methodology or are unpublished in their technical details, alas.


> With the Epson Archival inkset, thought by many to be the most archival
> desktop inkset, I found that the black reacted in my tests like a hybrid
> pigment-dye ink, fading significantly faster than the UC PK and MK.

Yes, for the moment I'm feeling good about holding on to my 2200. :-)

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

>Surface area? With the particles spread that much thinner over the
> same area, there would be more particles exposed to the light/air.

Surface area of a pigment is a critical factor.  However, most of the
surface areas of the pigments used appear to be about the same within any
class of pigments.  Limits are set by the specific gravity of the particle,
the viscosity of the carrier and other factors.  Carbon is actually one of
the heaviest used, and thus it must also be one of the smallest to stay in
suspension.  However, it's so tough, that is OK.  But within carbon, the
smaller particles are, I believe, the more neutral ones. 

The reputation of the lighter inks as faster-fading seems to have applied to
dyes more than to pigments.  With pigments, the surface area of the particle
is the same no matter what the distribution of the particles.  That is, when
I dilute LK to make a lighter ink, the particle size does not change.  With
dissolved dyes, when the more dilute ones crystallized on the paper fibers,
the lighter inks ended up with thinner coatings.   

However, the dilution of the lighter inks still has some application that is
analogous to the thinner coatings of dyes.  There seems to be quite a bit of
evidence that pigments in the middle of a pile are protected from the
"breeze" and oxidize more slowly, even though the pile of pigments is such
that oxygen can easily reach the surface of the particles.

It seems odd at first, but there appears to be quite a lot of evidence that
the air speed at the particle surface affects the oxidation rate.  On the
other hand, how many of us have blown on a bed of coals to get a fire going
again?  That may even be a significant part of what glass over the image
does.

With the UT sepia toners, it's obvious why they are the weaklings of the
inkset -- they have yellow and R800 red in them.  The red is presumably
better than the old magenta, but it's still not in the carbon or cyan class.
(The R800 blue used in the neutral ink may be a phthalocyanine like the
cyan.)  I never use sepia for serious printing.  Carbon is the warm end of
what I use for work I want to last.  But, IJM's "sepia" was supposed to be a
pure carbon.  So, I have no idea why it didn't perform better.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> dfaprinting
> Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:22 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Removing color content(was:Wilhelm 2400 data )
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > ... Much to Bill Bergh's dismay, the IJM's Carbon
> > > Sepia inkset, which he designed as supposedly pure carbon, fell
> > > slightly short of the other sets that do have color pigs mixed
> into
> > > them for hue, in their RIT tests. There seemed to be some positive
> > > symbiotic effect on longevity.
> > >...
> >
> > I never understood that either.  With the UT inksets the pure
> carbon is the
> > strongest in my fade testing.  Wilhelm also seems to be endorsing
> the
> > concept that carbon is the strongest of the pigments (relative to
> those in
> > the UC inkset).  That said, the cyan is extremely strong also.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> Surface area? With the particles spread that much thinner over the
> same area, there would be more particles exposed to the light/air.
> Well that's my guess anyway. Doesn't really explain why a mix works
> better.
> 
> Also brings up the question of BO prints. Do the lighter patches fade
> more quickly than the darker patches? That would be one way to check
> the surface area theory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

> > > be clear, you actually are utilizing a color component.
> >
> > I've always aknowledged as much  -  now how do we get rid of it,
> 
> Based in what I see around us available now, I don't think it's
> possible. What we would be after is a single pigment or colorant of
> some kind that is neutral on it's own. We already know from experience
> that carbon in the manner it is currently used in ink is not it, it's
> too warm.

I've read that the smaller carbon particles are more neutral.

The edge effect of graphite is apparently an entire sub-specialty in
chemistry.  So, there is a lot of action there that could make carbon
neutral.

About a year ago a group in the UK announced a pigment with a vastly lower
reflectance than current carbon.  If nothing is reflected, there is no
color.  This could be good for more than just super dmax.

I think it's on its way.  But for now, cyan and R800 blue are tough
customers that stay reasonably suspended in mixes. 


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Tyler,

You're right! Inks contain all sorts of stuff that most people don't think 
about or understand:-

Dye or pigment,

Solvent (eg water, alcohol, methyl ethyl ketone)

Surfactant (eg tergitol)

Penetrant (eg isopropyl alcohol)

Solubilizing agent (eg methyl pyrollidone)

Dispersant (eg derussol carbon black)

Humectant (eg glycol)

Viscosity modifier (eg glycol)

pH buffer (eg triethylamine)

Chelating agent (eg EDTA)

Biocide (eg benzisothiazolin-3-one)

UV-blockers

Antioxidants

Free radical inhibitors



Bob Frost.

--- Original Message ----- 

From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...>

I just figure there's a lot of ingredients in these inksets we know
nothing about that could have an impact. There has to be many
components that are not actually image forming, but simply allow the
inks to perform, deliver, sit well, ship well, taste good, etc..
Those have to have some impact on longevity, chemical robustness,
etc.. I have no idea what I'm talking about here.

Just a note on firewire drives for Windows users.
I thought they were the best things since sliced bread.  I have 1550 Gigs of
them on my machine.
I read and write a lot of data to them, a staggering amount some might say.

Here is the problem.  On windows, the data goes through windows drivers to
handle the firewire ports.  For some reason, that allows for a rare but
crippling corruption of the drive.  I have suffered 4 total corruptions of
the firewire drives, and came to this conclusion after discussion with a
level-2 engineer from a “famous” drive manufacturer.  I have had no such
corruptions with internal drives, and I write even more data to them, 250
Gig per day is not unusual.

This is just my experience, I’m not a computer hardware engineer so take the
information as you see fit.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
dfaprinting
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 7:21 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 2400 vs 2200 using IJC or QTR

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Roy,
<snip>
> Bob Frost.


And that's why it's nice to have an old machine around, or at least
an extra hard drive to trade in or out as needed. Wish Windows would
boot from a firewire drive like OSX, that would make life so much
easier!!! I've tried to do that with PC machines that say they will
boot from USB hard drives, but never had any luck with it actually
working.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is a very troubling comment. I just added and external firewire 
drive to archive my digital photos (I'd filled up all my USB ports and 
thought it might be a good idea to have some diversity in my hardware 
configuration.) Is there some particular activity that triggers the 
corruption, or just ordinary use? The drive I'm using is actually a 
2-way model, that has both firewire and USB2 connectors, and I suppose I 
could add another USB card to the computer if that would provide better 
reliability. Any idea what causes the failure?

Cheers,
Kip

John Moody wrote:

>Just a note on firewire drives for Windows users.
>I thought they were the best things since sliced bread.  I have 1550 Gigs of
>them on my machine.
>I read and write a lot of data to them, a staggering amount some might say.
>
>Here is the problem.  On windows, the data goes through windows drivers to
>handle the firewire ports.  For some reason, that allows for a rare but
>crippling corruption of the drive.  I have suffered 4 total corruptions of
>the firewire drives, and came to this conclusion after discussion with a
>level-2 engineer from a \ufffdfamous\ufffd drive manufacturer.  I have had no such
>corruptions with internal drives, and I write even more data to them, 250
>Gig per day is not unusual.
>
>This is just my experience, I\ufffdm not a computer hardware engineer so take the
>information as you see fit.
>
>Best regards,
>John Moody
>  
>

Kip Babington wrote:

>This is a very troubling comment. I just added and external firewire 
>drive to archive my digital photos (I'd filled up all my USB ports and 
>thought it might be a good idea to have some diversity in my hardware 
>configuration.) Is there some particular activity that triggers the 
>corruption, or just ordinary use? The drive I'm using is actually a 
>2-way model, that has both firewire and USB2 connectors, and I suppose I 
>could add another USB card to the computer if that would provide better 
>reliability. Any idea what causes the failure?
>
>Cheers,
>Kip
>
>John Moody wrote:
>
>  
>
I've used fire wire externals with Win XP for three years without a
problem. It could be the interface card rather than the drive itself.
Could also be the ide translator in the drive enclosure. I saw, can't
recall just where, that it is important to keep the firmware of the
translator up to date. I think that comment was in relation to the
Oxford chip set. On the other hand, USB 2 max speed is marginally faster
than Firewire, as I recall, 400 vs 480. I haven't tried a firewire 800
on a PC or an external SATA but those should really fly.

I guess the bottom line is that there is more to the question than just
the drive itself.

Roger

-- 
_______________________

Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http://deCorrales.com
_______________________



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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

> ...But, IJM's "sepia" was supposed to be a
> pure carbon.  So, I have no idea why it didn't perform better.

Actaually it did do very well, and better than the cool neutral set I think. It was just a bit of a 
suprise that it wasn't the best, as most assumed it would be.
Is there a pure, no color pig, carbon set from MIS to compare? If so, how did it do against 
similar sets with colorant?
Tyler

It also occurs with USB.  That goes through windows drivers as well.
Actually, one of my lost drives was on a USB2.0 port; they are all NTFS
formatted FWIW.
In my experience, the corruption occurs while writing the disk.  BTW, I do
not have the well-known delayed write XP problem that you can read about on
Microsoft support.

I use the drives to archive as well.  I believe that if you successfully
write the disk, and verify it, you are fine.  This is not a hardware problem
with external drives; it's a windows software problem.  I would then
shutdown the drive and turn it off.  This has been a rare thing for me, in
daily use, a drive can go 6 months or more without having it happen, but the
result is a total loss.

Using the drive as your main photo storage, without backup is asking for
disaster in my opinion.  For important images, I backup to DVD; any hard
drive can always suffer a hard failure like a head crash, dropping it, etc.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kip
Babington
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 9:02 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Firewire drives (was Re: 2400 vs 2200 using IJC or
QTR)

This is a very troubling comment. I just added and external firewire
drive to archive my digital photos (I'd filled up all my USB ports and
thought it might be a good idea to have some diversity in my hardware
configuration.) Is there some particular activity that triggers the
corruption, or just ordinary use? The drive I'm using is actually a
2-way model, that has both firewire and USB2 connectors, and I suppose I
could add another USB card to the computer if that would provide better
reliability. Any idea what causes the failure?

Cheers,
Kip

> Using the drive as your main photo storage, without backup is 
> asking for disaster in my opinion.  For important images, I 
> backup to DVD; any hard drive can always suffer a hard 
> failure like a head crash, dropping it, etc.

Using *any* single form of storage without backup is asking for disaster.
IDE drives are often only guarenteed for about 3yrs. SCSI tends to be a
little longer.

If money was no limit, I'd run RAID on my desktop, so I could lose a HDD,
and I'd backup daily to DAT or similar. But even this setup is not
foolproof.

Backups should also be stored off site too.


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington 
<cbabing3@s...> wrote:
> could add another USB card to the computer if that would provide 
better 
> reliability. 

Why not just put in a powered USB HUB for the low speed devices?

I think some of the failures may be chip incompatibilities, but I'm 
not going to say that sometimes there aren't problems with the 
windows driver. Oddly enough, I never have problems with my DVD+-R 
drive in a firewire box, and for the short time (6 months) I ran a 
hard drive in that box, there were no problems. The most common 
offenders are the cheapo enclosures that can be found, not only with 
connection problems, but with overheating of the drive! The 
enclosures I like best (when money is not a concern) were made by 
Accom Data and have an Oxford 911 chip (internal power suply and fan, 
spaced for 5 inch devices). Been working great for more than 3 years 
with various drives installed.

One cheapo enclosure I bought at CompUSA (I forget which chip, but 
not Oxford) not only frys the drive (no cooling fan), but is 
constantly giving me connection time out problems. I don't use it for 
anything but extremely short time transfers since I found how hot the 
drive gets. Delayed write warnings are the most common error with 
that enclosure.

Hello Bob,

>Thanks for that tip. I had assumed that since during printer
>installation you are asked to turn the printer on while the 
>program checks it out and sets up the port, you wouldn't be able 
>to install a 4800 for example without having one.

Just have it skip the port config part.  You can go into the printer
properties dialog later and set the port if you want to actually use
it.  I did this recently - loaded the 2400 driver on my laptop and
took it to a local CompUSA and hooked it up to a 2400 and ran some
sample prints.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Tyler,

>Also brings up the question of BO prints. Do the lighter patches 
>fade more quickly than the darker patches? 

Not so far in my testing.  I have a full scale Eboni BO print on my
windowsill (with some direct sunlight every day) at 22 months now with
still no signs of fading.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

John Moody wrote:



Although I do not doubt for a moment that you've had some corrupt 
drives, I am *extremely* skeptical that you have reached a correct 
diagnosis of the cause and origin of the problems.


> On windows, the data goes through windows drivers to
> handle the firewire ports.  

> I have had no such
> corruptions with internal drives, and I write even more data to them, 250
> Gig per day is not unusual.

Odd, since the internal drives also use Windows drivers.

In fact, everything on the machine except the processor uses a Windows 
driver. (And even the processor uses a special Windows driver-like 
thing, called a kernel.)

Also, an external firewire drive may use a Microsoft-provided driver, or 
a vendor-supplied driver. I'd be astonished if your vendor didn't 
provide you with one of their own drivers to support the hardware they 
designed and manufactured.

You need two drivers to run a firewire drive - an interface driver, and 
a storage device driver. This is often a motherboard-maker supplied 
interface driver, and a generic mass storage driver for the drive 
itself. If this is the case, what reason did the manufacturer's engineer 
give for their drive not supporting the generic mass storage driver?

Was the interface driver, or mass storage driver, the implicated software?


> For some reason, that allows for a rare but
> crippling corruption of the drive.

What reason was given?


> I have suffered 4 total corruptions of
> the firewire drives, 

Are these all on the same machine?

Do they involve the same model drive?

Do they involve the same drive manufacturer?

Do they involve the same firewire interface?

Do they involve the same firewire interface model or manufacturer?


> and came to this conclusion after discussion with a
> level-2 engineer 

What does "level-2 engineer" mean? I've never heard the term, and 
frankly it sounds to me like impressive-sounding gobbledygook used to 
describe a tech support person in a call center somewhere.


> from a \ufffdfamous\ufffd drive manufacturer.

Which one?


> It also occurs with USB.

On the same machine as the one that had problems with firewire drives?


 > That [USB] goes through windows drivers as well.

Everything goes through Windows drivers. Did you ask the drive maker if 
you could have one of their drivers, or why their drive didn't support 
Microsoft-supplied drivers?

Are these all on the same machine?

Do they involve the same model drive?

Do they involve the same drive manufacturer?

Do they involve the same firewire interface?

Do they involve the same firewire interface model or manufacturer?


> In my experience, the corruption occurs while writing the disk.

That makes sense, as corruption couldn't possibly happen during reading. 
You could get a read error, even an arbitrarily long string of them in a 
row, but to cause actual corruption, the drive actually has to write 
something to the disk.

So you send your drive in, and they switched platters to an analysis 
mechanism in a clean room and determined the fact of corruption, right?


> This is not a hardware problem
> with external drives; it's a windows software problem.

How do you know?

This is really where my skepticism originates. If it has been 
established as a Windows software problem, I would expect to hear of 
certain tests that were done that established this - not the least 
because they would be either impressive or tedious to you. I'm asking 
about the tests that were done - what were they, and what were the results?


> Using the drive as your main photo storage, without backup is asking for
> disaster in my opinion.

I completely agree. Redundancy is absolutely necessary.

However, unless more, and highly detailed, information is posted, I'm 
afraid I have to conclude your experience is an extremely rare anomaly, 
is of undetermined cause, probably isn't a driver problem (or we'd all 
be experiencing this, since most everyone is using generic mass storage 
drivers), and involves very poor support from the drive manufacturer.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" 
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
> Just a note on firewire drives for Windows users.
> I thought they were the best things since sliced bread.  I have 
1550 Gigs of
> them on my machine.
> I read and write a lot of data to them, a staggering amount some 
might say.
> 
> Here is the problem.  On windows, the data goes through windows 
drivers to
> handle the firewire ports.  For some reason, that allows for a rare 
but
> crippling corruption of the drive.  I have suffered 4 total 
corruptions of
> the firewire drives, and came to this conclusion after discussion 
with a
> level-2 engineer from a "famous" drive manufacturer.  I have had no 
such
> corruptions with internal drives, and I write even more data to 
them, 250
> Gig per day is not unusual.
> 
> This is just my experience, I'm not a computer hardware engineer so 
take the
> information as you see fit.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody


Thanks, John,

I have been using external hard drives for some while and have had 
failures with and without the "delayed write failure" messages.  I 
had another PC built on XP, the former was on 2k, and have crammed as 
many hard disks in as I can.  I have backups on at least two HDDs 
and, for archived files on CD or DVD.  I no longer buy HDDs in sizes 
greater than 80 Gb, though I have some of 120 Gb from before, because 
of the time traken to back up from CD.  I also buy Western Digital 
drives in pairs of the same manufacture date as the drives change 
circuit boards every few months and so I have a spare board if needs 
be.  

Yesterday an external dive on the 2k machine was corrupted.  I had 
backups on two HDDs.  I used the internal spare on the XP machine and 
xcopy'd the file ascross.  

My external drives on the XP machine are only switched on when in 
use, and then disconnected properly. I did not realize what the cause 
was, so, following your tip, I plan to buy another IDE PCI card for 
the XP machine and run external drives from its cable terminals but 
with power supplied externally.

Thanks,

Colin

> Is there a pure, no color pig, carbon set from MIS to compare? 

The only pure carbon inkset, as such, from MIS is the C86 EZ-Warm inkset.
Among other things, it was made for and is used by the genealogy
aficionados, who want maximum longevity.

However, MIS variable-tone inksets have carbon positions that have been
tested and show the relative strength of the carbon. 

MIS had its original UT-1 inkset fade tested and posted the results at
http://www.inksupply.com/utfadedata.cfm.  In this inkset UT-C is a pure
carbon, dark gray.  It is the PiezoBW C density and a basic ink in most of
the UT inksets.  UT-LC is medium gray, and UT-Y is light gray, just a bit
darker than the Piezo Y.  In the UT-1 inkset the "toner" was a high - gamut
blue composed of mostly cyan and magenta.  The tested version of UT1 used
the old magenta and not the new R800 blue, so the results are substantially
worse than they would be today.  Nonetheless, looking at how the UT-C ink
did shows the strength of the carbon pigment.  

My test results are similar.  No toned carbon ink has ever matched the pure
carbon UT-C.  In fact, no other midtone ink from anyone has matched it,
although PiezoTone NW is close, as is the UC inkset, but only if sprayed
with a UV-containing coating like PremierArt Print Guard.   Eboni and UC MK
in my tests are in the same league with UT-C.

The variable-tone UT2 and UT7 inksets use UT-C in the M and C spots,
respectively.  In general, having a pure carbon channel has been a basic
feature of my approach because I think purists will want to print either
pure carbon or as close to it as looks good with the image and paper.  The
other 2-ink channels (C or M, respectively) are cool-toned carbon (still
predominantly carbon) of the same basic densities.  The Y channel in the UT
2 & 7 is a sepia ink in the default inkset, but I often put a lighter warm
ink (UT-FS-Y, about equal to Piezo Neutral-warm Y).  Note that one could
easily take the pure carbon inks (UT-C and UT-LC, for example) and put them
in both the C and M channels.  Then with Y channel could be UT-Y, making a
pure carbon hextone inkset. 


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Jeff,
I agree with all your points, and with your skepticism.  And yes, it is a
rare occurrence.  There are many possibilities, and I'm no computer
engineer, which I did mention.
My point of posting was to offer my experience, and the corroboration of the
drive manufacturers engineer about the corruption rate of external vs.
internal drives.   The only test I have done after repartitioning and
formatting a corrupted drive is writing 00h, FFh, and a random word to the
entire drive in three passes.  That test completed successfully; and that
drive again became corrupt 2 months later.
What I mean by "level-2" engineer, is the engineer that was assigned my case
after tech-support could not resolve it.  I have not mentioned the brand
name because I have had very good product support from them, and don't
believe "their" drives are defective.  Of course I could be wrong.  Over the
years I have had physical drive failures with various manufacturers, and
this mfg. does not stand out differently in any way.

FWIW, my external drives are plugged directly into an ASUS A7N8X-Deluxe
motherboard, which has an onboard Realtek 8801B 1394 PHY.  The drives are a
top brand name, shipped right from the Mfg. in some cases.  The level-2
engineer I spoke with said the number of corrupt drive problems for external
drives greatly outranks the internal ones.  So much so, that it is hurting
their % defective returned product rankings for the line, which for the same
drive mounted internally, is extremely low.  He believes the "windows
drivers" are a major reason for that difference, FWIW. That was all I needed
to hear to adjust my game plan for more peace of mind, which could be in my
mind only I suppose.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
Medkeff
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:12 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Firewire drives (was Re: 2400 vs 2200 using IJC or
QTR)

John Moody wrote:



Although I do not doubt for a moment that you've had some corrupt
drives, I am *extremely* skeptical that you have reached a correct
diagnosis of the cause and origin of the problems.


> On windows, the data goes through windows drivers to
> handle the firewire ports.

> I have had no such
> corruptions with internal drives, and I write even more data to them, 250
> Gig per day is not unusual.

Odd, since the internal drives also use Windows drivers.

In fact, everything on the machine except the processor uses a Windows
driver. (And even the processor uses a special Windows driver-like
thing, called a kernel.)

Also, an external firewire drive may use a Microsoft-provided driver, or
a vendor-supplied driver. I'd be astonished if your vendor didn't
provide you with one of their own drivers to support the hardware they
designed and manufactured.

You need two drivers to run a firewire drive - an interface driver, and
a storage device driver. This is often a motherboard-maker supplied
interface driver, and a generic mass storage driver for the drive
itself. If this is the case, what reason did the manufacturer's engineer
give for their drive not supporting the generic mass storage driver?

Was the interface driver, or mass storage driver, the implicated software?


> For some reason, that allows for a rare but
> crippling corruption of the drive.

What reason was given?


> I have suffered 4 total corruptions of
> the firewire drives,

Are these all on the same machine?

Do they involve the same model drive?

Do they involve the same drive manufacturer?

Do they involve the same firewire interface?

Do they involve the same firewire interface model or manufacturer?


> and came to this conclusion after discussion with a
> level-2 engineer

What does "level-2 engineer" mean? I've never heard the term, and
frankly it sounds to me like impressive-sounding gobbledygook used to
describe a tech support person in a call center somewhere.


> from a "famous" drive manufacturer.

Which one?


> It also occurs with USB.

On the same machine as the one that had problems with firewire drives?


 > That [USB] goes through windows drivers as well.

Everything goes through Windows drivers. Did you ask the drive maker if
you could have one of their drivers, or why their drive didn't support
Microsoft-supplied drivers?

Are these all on the same machine?

Do they involve the same model drive?

Do they involve the same drive manufacturer?

Do they involve the same firewire interface?

Do they involve the same firewire interface model or manufacturer?


> In my experience, the corruption occurs while writing the disk.

That makes sense, as corruption couldn't possibly happen during reading.
You could get a read error, even an arbitrarily long string of them in a
row, but to cause actual corruption, the drive actually has to write
something to the disk.

So you send your drive in, and they switched platters to an analysis
mechanism in a clean room and determined the fact of corruption, right?


> This is not a hardware problem
> with external drives; it's a windows software problem.

How do you know?

This is really where my skepticism originates. If it has been
established as a Windows software problem, I would expect to hear of
certain tests that were done that established this - not the least
because they would be either impressive or tedious to you. I'm asking
about the tests that were done - what were they, and what were the results?


> Using the drive as your main photo storage, without backup is asking for
> disaster in my opinion.

I completely agree. Redundancy is absolutely necessary.

However, unless more, and highly detailed, information is posted, I'm
afraid I have to conclude your experience is an extremely rare anomaly,
is of undetermined cause, probably isn't a driver problem (or we'd all
be experiencing this, since most everyone is using generic mass storage
drivers), and involves very poor support from the drive manufacturer.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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>
> Thanks, John,
>
> I have been using external hard drives for some while and have had
> failures with and without the "delayed write failure" messages.  I
> had another PC built on XP, the former was on 2k, and have crammed as
> many hard disks in as I can.  I have backups on at least two HDDs
> and, for archived files on CD or DVD.  I no longer buy HDDs in sizes
> greater than 80 Gb, though I have some of 120 Gb from before, because
> of the time traken to back up from CD.  I also buy Western Digital
> drives in pairs of the same manufacture date as the drives change
> circuit boards every few months and so I have a spare board if needs
> be. 
>
> Yesterday an external dive on the 2k machine was corrupted.  I had
> backups on two HDDs.  I used the internal spare on the XP machine and
> xcopy'd the file ascross. 
>
> My external drives on the XP machine are only switched on when in
> use, and then disconnected properly. I did not realize what the cause
> was, so, following your tip, I plan to buy another IDE PCI card for
> the XP machine and run external drives from its cable terminals but
> with power supplied externally.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Colin
>
>
>
Colin,


With your needs of a terabyte of storage or more you might want to
consider setting up a RAID Array, probably a RAID 5, possibly with
swappable drives. In a full tower case you can easily set up a five
drive or larger array that will give you both speed and redundancy. The
cost will probably be no more or not much more than you are presently
spending. Such a system including processor, MB, memory, drives etc can
probably be built for about a grand. The things to be aware of are all
of the drives should be the same make, model and capacity, the PC should
have a robust power supply and get a good controller card. I have used
SCSI in the past but I think I would go SATA now. Back up is always a
concern and none is perfect. In business a modest sized array would be
backed up to a DLT tape drive daily with off site storage but that is
big $$. anything less is a compromise. A catalog of DVD's will certainly
work but the indexing can be an interesting problem. You could also
consider building a raid machine as a server. Transferring data via
gigabyte Ethernet is perhaps somewhat slower than an internal array but
not so much it would be a major impediment.

Just some thoughts.

Roger

-- 
_______________________

Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http://deCorrales.com
_______________________




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm working on scanning in a bunch of my parents' color slides from the 
50s and 60s. The Kodachromes have held up really well.  I'd like to make 
an album for their 50th anniversery this fall. I have an Epson c86 
printing, and I'd like recommendations on paper and ink to use. The 
Durabrite inks are ok on EEM, but maybe there are better options? How 
about the MIS Perpetual Archival Color Pigment Inks? Any paper 
suggestions? I like the look of color on EEM, but I'm concerned a wee 
bit about it's acidity.

Thanks,
Peter De Smidt

Hi Peter;

The latest version of MIS' newsletter announced a new color set they 
call MIS Pro inks, intended apparently for the Durabright and UC 
printers; for some reason the link seems to be available only through 
the newsletter, but here it is:   
http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_mispro.cfm

Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter De Smidt 
<pdesmidt@T...> wrote:
> I'm working on scanning in a bunch of my parents' color slides from 
the 
> 50s and 60s. The Kodachromes have held up really well.  I'd like to 
make 

> an album for their 50th anniversery this fall. I have an Epson c86 
> printing, and I'd like recommendations on paper and ink to use. The 
> Durabrite inks are ok on EEM, but maybe there are better options? How 
> about the MIS Perpetual Archival Color Pigment Inks? Any paper 
> suggestions? I like the look of color on EEM, but I'm concerned a wee 
> bit about it's acidity.
> 
> Thanks,
> Peter De Smidt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" 
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
> 
> FWIW, my external drives are plugged directly into an ASUS A7N8X-
Deluxe
> motherboard, which has an onboard Realtek 8801B 1394 PHY.

Not the best chip in the land of firewire. You might want to disable 
that chip and try an Adaptec PCI card, it might reduce your problems. 
I believe Apple still uses an Agere (sp?) chip on their machines, and 
the Lucent chips have never given me problems when a good enclosure 
is used, chips from Texas Instruments are normally pretty good until 
you start chaining other devices on the end. I'm not so sure about 
the Initio chips, or the other one that I have blocked from my 
memory... And as I said, the enclosures with the Oxford chip have 
given my the fewest problems, across several different machines and 
host chips, with best performance on the computer with the Lucent 
chip.

Yes there is a lot of incompatibilities across some of these chip 
combinations, and sometimes they don't show up until you put an 
additional device in the chain.

Thanks!  I’ll do that.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
dfaprinting
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 2:01 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Firewire drives

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
>
> FWIW, my external drives are plugged directly into an ASUS A7N8X-
Deluxe
> motherboard, which has an onboard Realtek 8801B 1394 PHY.

Not the best chip in the land of firewire. You might want to disable
that chip and try an Adaptec PCI card, it might reduce your problems.
I believe Apple still uses an Agere (sp?) chip on their machines, and
the Lucent chips have never given me problems when a good enclosure
is used, chips from Texas Instruments are normally pretty good until
you start chaining other devices on the end. I'm not so sure about
the Initio chips, or the other one that I have blocked from my
memory... And as I said, the enclosures with the Oxford chip have
given my the fewest problems, across several different machines and
host chips, with best performance on the computer with the Lucent
chip.

Yes there is a lot of incompatibilities across some of these chip
combinations, and sometimes they don't show up until you put an
additional device in the chain.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My vote is for the oxford 911 chip, which is a bit hard to find. They 
dont have it in any enclosure at Fry's or comp-usa, right now anyway. I 
have gotten them at Fry's in the past however.
I mainly know about the importance of the oxford 911 chip from my work 
as a musician. The oxford chip is FAR FAR FAR superior for recording 
audio. So much so, that other chips are almost not usable.  For 
instance, when setting the workstation to record sixteen live tracks, 
the Oxford chip does not hesitate, or cough, or suffer drop-outs. All 
the other chips first take up to TWO FULL MINUTES to start writing 
data. Then there is a pretty good chance that there will be drop-outs, 
or the drive will stop writing altogether for no apparent reason. In a 
four hour recording session, this might happen 4 times with a comp-usa 
no-name chip. It will never happen with a oxford 911 chip. I have had 
to hobble thru sessions like this a few times when clients bring in 
thier own firewire drive, or in mobile situations when I forgot my 
drive or power-supply and had to go out and get one from fry's or some 
other place close by.
It looks like the same problems are showing up in your photographic 
studio...... go out and ask for an enclosure with the oxford chip. They 
only cost like 10 bucks more. Very strange that so many companies sell 
those barely working chips in their enclosures, just to keep the price 
down by ten bucks.
Good luck....Dm
On Jul 25, 2005, at 11:01 AM, dfaprinting wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
>  <moodymz3@y...> wrote:
>  >
>  > FWIW, my external drives are plugged directly into an ASUS A7N8X-
>  Deluxe
>  > motherboard, which has an onboard Realtek 8801B 1394 PHY.
>
>  Not the best chip in the land of firewire. You might want to disable
>  that chip and try an Adaptec PCI card, it might reduce your problems.
>  I believe Apple still uses an Agere (sp?) chip on their machines, and
>  the Lucent chips have never given me problems when a good enclosure
>  is used, chips from Texas Instruments are normally pretty good until
>  you start chaining other devices on the end. I'm not so sure about
>  the Initio chips, or the other one that I have blocked from my
>  memory... And as I said, the enclosures with the Oxford chip have
>  given my the fewest problems, across several different machines and
>  host chips, with best performance on the computer with the Lucent
>  chip.
>
>  Yes there is a lot of incompatibilities across some of these chip
>  combinations, and sometimes they don't show up until you put an
>  additional device in the chain.
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks.  It just so happens that all my drives do use that chip, so that’s one less thing for me to worry about.
 
Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Douglas meeuwsen
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 2:34 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Firewire drives
 
My vote is for the oxford 911 chip, which is a bit hard to find. They 
dont have it in any enclosure at Fry's or comp-usa, right now anyway. I 
have gotten them at Fry's in the past however.
I mainly know about the importance of the oxford 911 chip from my work 
as a musician. The oxford chip is FAR FAR FAR superior for recording 
audio. So much so, that other chips are almost not usable.  For 
instance, when setting the workstation to record sixteen live tracks, 
the Oxford chip does not hesitate, or cough, or suffer drop-outs. All 
the other chips first take up to TWO FULL MINUTES to start writing 
data. Then there is a pretty good chance that there will be drop-outs, 
or the drive will stop writing altogether for no apparent reason. In a 
four hour recording session, this might happen 4 times with a comp-usa 
no-name chip. It will never happen with a oxford 911 chip. I have had 
to hobble thru sessions like this a few times when clients bring in 
thier own firewire drive, or in mobile situations when I forgot my 
drive or power-supply and had to go out and get one from fry's or some 
other place close by.
It looks like the same problems are showing up in your photographic 
studio...... go out and ask for an enclosure with the oxford chip. They 
only cost like 10 bucks more. Very strange that so many companies sell 
those barely working chips in their enclosures, just to keep the price 
down by ten bucks.
Good luck....Dm
On Jul 25, 2005, at 11:01 AM, dfaprinting wrote:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

When you say an ink is "predominantly carbon", what sort of % are you 
talking about (of the pigment load)?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>


 The
other 2-ink channels (C or M, respectively) are cool-toned carbon (still
predominantly carbon) of the same basic densities.

Bob,

> When you say an ink is "predominantly carbon", what sort of % are you
> talking about (of the pigment load)?

UT7 M is 56% LK, 10% PK, 20% R800 Blue, and 14% 7600 Cyan (all compatible
MIS UT family inks).  LM is 12% "Blue 2:1" (2 R800B: 1 C, the standard
midtone and highlight blue mix I use), 23% LK and 23% base. (Note the base
here is not the latest MIS base, which will probably require slightly
modified formulas.)

The UT2 formulas use just slightly more color inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> 
> 
>  The
> other 2-ink channels (C or M, respectively) are cool-toned carbon (still
> predominantly carbon) of the same basic densities.
> 
> 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" 
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
> Thanks.  It just so happens that all my drives do use that chip, 
so that’s one less thing for me to worry about.
>  
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>  


You might also want to check to be sure that the firmware in the chip 
is up to date, this made my boxes go from half speed to full speed 
and allowed other options with the fast CDRW I was using at the time. 
The drive manufacturer should be able to get the firmware for you, if 
not I might still have it kicking around. One note, the OXF911 is 
firewire only, so if you have a combo USB/FW then you would have the 
Oxford 922 chip, and I don't have anything that uses that chip.

BTW, this place lists a few of the old OXF911 cases: 
http://www.coolgear.com/index2.cfm
Just click on the FirewireGear link on the left side of the page. I 
have $2000+ of enclosures with the Initio chip (FW400/FW800) coming 
for use with DV video on MACs. A little scary since I've had mixed 
results with the older Initio chip but they were one of the few 
FW400/800 enclosures that specifically mentioned working with the Mac 
machines http://www.coolgear.com/productdetails1.cfm?sku=BCICE-
2B1&cats=&catid=313,312,322,308 . The 45 Maxtor IDE drives are in the 
next room waiting for these (one per student, with 15 extra sleds). 
Yes I believe that more fans are better for the drives, and this has 
one for the drive, and one more for the entire box.

And before anyone asks, yes we did have a server for this task, but 
that's a sore subject and brings thoughts of pitchforks and torches 
to mind. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/mob-angry.gif

And we still aren't sure what we will be using for our music 
recording class yet, probably something in a bundle, I'll probably 
have to decide on that next week, since budgets were just recently 
approved.

And Douglas, if you wouldn't mind, could I contact you off list (or 
maybe better if you contact me since these Yahoo accounts often get 
blocked) to pick your brain about the music recording? After some 30 
years of providing Radio and Television oriented education we are 
finally putting a music recording class together, and there are still 
a few questions left un-answered, mostly about software for the PC 
platform. Any help would be appreciated.

And just to keep this on subject... Just think how many grayscale 
TIFF images you could fit on all those 45 drives (only 80GB each) ;-)