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Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-16 by Paul Roark

My latest fade test (compact fluorescent light) reached 600 hours.  So, I
have some initial fade results.

The short version:  UT7 showed less fading than the 4800 "Advanced B&W" mode
prints both in the highlights and at 50%; the MIS new base does not appear
to negatively affect UT performance; and inks on Kirkland paper are very
stable.


Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X-Rite DTP 22
spectrophotometer.  The same paper batches were used for all comparisons.
The results shown are the average of 3 readings.  The affects of the
variability of the spectrophotometer were minimized by reading comparison
test strips at the same time.  The actual starting, pre-fade densities may
vary from the control test strips, but comparisons based on the pre-fade
measurements resulted in similar comparisons.  The UT7 comparison test
strips were printed with "neutral" curves that were modified to match the
density and tone of the 4800 test strips as closely as reasonably possible.


Spectrophotometer readings:

EEM 0% (paper white) Control: (96.83, 1.03, -3.49)

                     Change: (-0.04, -1.4, 4.48)

      Comment: As we know, the paper yellows.  
               This will affect mostly the highlight results.

4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 5% Control: (92.76, 1.20, -3.79)

                         Change: (0.16, -1.49, 4.92)

7600 UT7 Neutral 5% Control: (92.79, 0.83, -3.98)

                    Change: (-0.02, -1.59, 4.94)



4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 10% Control: (88.35, 1.07, -3.11)

                          Change: (0.52, -1.39, 4.73)

7600 UT7 Neutral 10% Control: (89.18, 0.34, -3.34)

                     Change: (-0.04, -1.41, 4.53)


4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 50% Control: (53.55, 0.72, 0.38)

                          Change: (0.67, -0.55, 2.04)

7600 UT7 Neutral 50% Control: (54.04, 1.96, -0.27)

                     Change: (0.08, -0.68, 1.93)

2200 UT7 New Base 50% Control: (53.53, 1.17, 0.14)

                      Change: (-0.14, -0.68, 2.04)

Kirkland UT7 50% Control: (56.54, -0.52, -4.17)

                 Change: (-0.33, -0.56, 1.24)



Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-16 by Carl Schofield

Is the "new base" in any of the inksets that MIS is currently selling?

On Aug 16, 2005, at 7:05 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> My latest fade test (compact fluorescent light) reached 600 hours.   
> So, I
> have some initial fade results.
>
> The short version:  UT7 showed less fading than the 4800 "Advanced  
> B&W" mode
> prints both in the highlights and at 50%; the MIS new base does not  
> appear
> to negatively affect UT performance; and inks on Kirkland paper are  
> very
> stable.
>
>
> Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X- 
> Rite DTP 22
> spectrophotometer.  The same paper batches were used for all  
> comparisons.
> The results shown are the average of 3 readings.  The affects of the
> variability of the spectrophotometer were minimized by reading  
> comparison
> test strips at the same time.  The actual starting, pre-fade  
> densities may
> vary from the control test strips, but comparisons based on the pre- 
> fade
> measurements resulted in similar comparisons.  The UT7 comparison test
> strips were printed with "neutral" curves that were modified to  
> match the
> density and tone of the 4800 test strips as closely as reasonably  
> possible.
>
>
> Spectrophotometer readings:
>
> EEM 0% (paper white) Control: (96.83, 1.03, -3.49)
>
>                      Change: (-0.04, -1.4, 4.48)
>
>       Comment: As we know, the paper yellows.
>                This will affect mostly the highlight results.
>
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 5% Control: (92.76, 1.20, -3.79)
>
>                          Change: (0.16, -1.49, 4.92)
>
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 5% Control: (92.79, 0.83, -3.98)
>
>                     Change: (-0.02, -1.59, 4.94)
>
>
>
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 10% Control: (88.35, 1.07, -3.11)
>
>                           Change: (0.52, -1.39, 4.73)
>
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 10% Control: (89.18, 0.34, -3.34)
>
>                      Change: (-0.04, -1.41, 4.53)
>
>
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 50% Control: (53.55, 0.72, 0.38)
>
>                           Change: (0.67, -0.55, 2.04)
>
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 50% Control: (54.04, 1.96, -0.27)
>
>                      Change: (0.08, -0.68, 1.93)
>
> 2200 UT7 New Base 50% Control: (53.53, 1.17, 0.14)
>
>                       Change: (-0.14, -0.68, 2.04)
>
> Kirkland UT7 50% Control: (56.54, -0.52, -4.17)
>
>                  Change: (-0.33, -0.56, 1.24)
>
>
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-16 by Paul Roark

Carl,

I don't have a "for sure" answer on this, but I think it's in all of the UT
inks except to the extent that MIS has inventory.  In short, the old base is
totally history, but I suspect MIS is not eager to have people hold off
buying because they don't want the old base.  On the flip side, I have not
checked the UT inks for changes, but a few samples indicate that the new
base may slightly affect ink density and tone.  (I suspect, that is what the
new Pro Archival inkset is all about.)  I'm waiting for a full set of inks
so that I can check the UT mixing formulas.  As of now, MIS is just using
the existing formulas to mix the inks where they need to.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
> Schofield
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:27 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, &
> Kirkland
> 
> Is the "new base" in any of the inksets that MIS is currently selling?
> 
> On Aug 16, 2005, at 7:05 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> > My latest fade test (compact fluorescent light) reached 600 hours.
> > So, I
> > have some initial fade results.
> >
> > The short version:  UT7 showed less fading than the 4800 "Advanced
> > B&W" mode
> > prints both in the highlights and at 50%; the MIS new base does not
> > appear
> > to negatively affect UT performance; and inks on Kirkland paper are
> > very
> > stable.
> >
> >
> > Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X-
> > Rite DTP 22
> > spectrophotometer.  The same paper batches were used for all
> > comparisons.
> > The results shown are the average of 3 readings.  The affects of the
> > variability of the spectrophotometer were minimized by reading
> > comparison
> > test strips at the same time.  The actual starting, pre-fade
> > densities may
> > vary from the control test strips, but comparisons based on the pre-
> > fade
> > measurements resulted in similar comparisons.  The UT7 comparison test
> > strips were printed with "neutral" curves that were modified to
> > match the
> > density and tone of the 4800 test strips as closely as reasonably
> > possible.
> >
> >
> > Spectrophotometer readings:
> >
> > EEM 0% (paper white) Control: (96.83, 1.03, -3.49)
> >
> >                      Change: (-0.04, -1.4, 4.48)
> >
> >       Comment: As we know, the paper yellows.
> >                This will affect mostly the highlight results.
> >
> > 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 5% Control: (92.76, 1.20, -3.79)
> >
> >                          Change: (0.16, -1.49, 4.92)
> >
> > 7600 UT7 Neutral 5% Control: (92.79, 0.83, -3.98)
> >
> >                     Change: (-0.02, -1.59, 4.94)
> >
> >
> >
> > 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 10% Control: (88.35, 1.07, -3.11)
> >
> >                           Change: (0.52, -1.39, 4.73)
> >
> > 7600 UT7 Neutral 10% Control: (89.18, 0.34, -3.34)
> >
> >                      Change: (-0.04, -1.41, 4.53)
> >
> >
> > 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 50% Control: (53.55, 0.72, 0.38)
> >
> >                           Change: (0.67, -0.55, 2.04)
> >
> > 7600 UT7 Neutral 50% Control: (54.04, 1.96, -0.27)
> >
> >                      Change: (0.08, -0.68, 1.93)
> >
> > 2200 UT7 New Base 50% Control: (53.53, 1.17, 0.14)
> >
> >                       Change: (-0.14, -0.68, 2.04)
> >
> > Kirkland UT7 50% Control: (56.54, -0.52, -4.17)
> >
> >                  Change: (-0.33, -0.56, 1.24)
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
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> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-16 by Steve Kale

Including Eboni?  God I hope it hasn't changed things much.  I just spent 3
days profiling everything....QTR, colour...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> 
> I don't have a "for sure" answer on this, but I think it's in all of the UT
> inks except to the extent that MIS has inventory.

RE: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-16 by Paul Roark

No, Eboni is not really a "UT" ink.  It's a different base entirely.  So,
the change does not affect it as far as I know.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
> Kale
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:49 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, &
> Kirkland
> 
> Including Eboni?  God I hope it hasn't changed things much.  I just spent
> 3
> days profiling everything....QTR, colour...
> 
> 
> > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> 
> >
> > I don't have a "for sure" answer on this, but I think it's in all of the
> UT
> > inks except to the extent that MIS has inventory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-16 by Carl Schofield

Thanks for the info Paul.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Aug 16, 2005, at 7:40 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I don't have a "for sure" answer on this, but I think it's in all  
> of the UT
> inks except to the extent that MIS has inventory.  In short, the  
> old base is
> totally history, but I suspect MIS is not eager to have people hold  
> off
> buying because they don't want the old base.  On the flip side, I  
> have not
> checked the UT inks for changes, but a few samples indicate that  
> the new
> base may slightly affect ink density and tone.  (I suspect, that is  
> what the
> new Pro Archival inkset is all about.)  I'm waiting for a full set  
> of inks
> so that I can check the UT mixing formulas.  As of now, MIS is just  
> using
> the existing formulas to mix the inks where they need to.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
>> Carl
>> Schofield
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:27 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, &
>> Kirkland
>>
>> Is the "new base" in any of the inksets that MIS is currently  
>> selling?
>>
>> On Aug 16, 2005, at 7:05 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
>>
>>
>>> My latest fade test (compact fluorescent light) reached 600 hours.
>>> So, I
>>> have some initial fade results.
>>>
>>> The short version:  UT7 showed less fading than the 4800 "Advanced
>>> B&W" mode
>>> prints both in the highlights and at 50%; the MIS new base does not
>>> appear
>>> to negatively affect UT performance; and inks on Kirkland paper are
>>> very
>>> stable.
>>>
>>>
>>> Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X-
>>> Rite DTP 22
>>> spectrophotometer.  The same paper batches were used for all
>>> comparisons.
>>> The results shown are the average of 3 readings.  The affects of the
>>> variability of the spectrophotometer were minimized by reading
>>> comparison
>>> test strips at the same time.  The actual starting, pre-fade
>>> densities may
>>> vary from the control test strips, but comparisons based on the pre-
>>> fade
>>> measurements resulted in similar comparisons.  The UT7 comparison  
>>> test
>>> strips were printed with "neutral" curves that were modified to
>>> match the
>>> density and tone of the 4800 test strips as closely as reasonably
>>> possible.
>>>
>>>
>>> Spectrophotometer readings:
>>>
>>> EEM 0% (paper white) Control: (96.83, 1.03, -3.49)
>>>
>>>                      Change: (-0.04, -1.4, 4.48)
>>>
>>>       Comment: As we know, the paper yellows.
>>>                This will affect mostly the highlight results.
>>>
>>> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 5% Control: (92.76, 1.20, -3.79)
>>>
>>>                          Change: (0.16, -1.49, 4.92)
>>>
>>> 7600 UT7 Neutral 5% Control: (92.79, 0.83, -3.98)
>>>
>>>                     Change: (-0.02, -1.59, 4.94)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 10% Control: (88.35, 1.07, -3.11)
>>>
>>>                           Change: (0.52, -1.39, 4.73)
>>>
>>> 7600 UT7 Neutral 10% Control: (89.18, 0.34, -3.34)
>>>
>>>                      Change: (-0.04, -1.41, 4.53)
>>>
>>>
>>> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 50% Control: (53.55, 0.72, 0.38)
>>>
>>>                           Change: (0.67, -0.55, 2.04)
>>>
>>> 7600 UT7 Neutral 50% Control: (54.04, 1.96, -0.27)
>>>
>>>                      Change: (0.08, -0.68, 1.93)
>>>
>>> 2200 UT7 New Base 50% Control: (53.53, 1.17, 0.14)
>>>
>>>                       Change: (-0.14, -0.68, 2.04)
>>>
>>> Kirkland UT7 50% Control: (56.54, -0.52, -4.17)
>>>
>>>                  Change: (-0.33, -0.56, 1.24)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> www.PaulRoark.com
>>>

Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Steve Kale

Interesting that the colour shift is extremely close - really only the
luminance figures have anything close to a meaningful difference.  Am I
reading your numbers correctly?  Where you have a positive change in L* is
that a fall in L* or increase?  I would also suggest that the differences in
L* are trivial.  For example, a change of 0.67 of a base of around 53.55 is
a mere 0.012 in density.  It is, however, very comforting to know that the
UT7 and Epson K3 inks are in the same league.  This should give UT7
purchases a lot of assurance with respect to the relative endurance of their
ink.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:05:43 -0700
> To: DigitalB&WPrint <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland
> 
> My latest fade test (compact fluorescent light) reached 600 hours.  So, I
> have some initial fade results.
> 
> The short version:  UT7 showed less fading than the 4800 "Advanced B&W" mode
> prints both in the highlights and at 50%; the MIS new base does not appear
> to negatively affect UT performance; and inks on Kirkland paper are very
> stable.
> 
> 
> Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X-Rite DTP 22
> spectrophotometer.  The same paper batches were used for all comparisons.
> The results shown are the average of 3 readings.  The affects of the
> variability of the spectrophotometer were minimized by reading comparison
> test strips at the same time.  The actual starting, pre-fade densities may
> vary from the control test strips, but comparisons based on the pre-fade
> measurements resulted in similar comparisons.  The UT7 comparison test
> strips were printed with "neutral" curves that were modified to match the
> density and tone of the 4800 test strips as closely as reasonably possible.
> 
> 
> Spectrophotometer readings:
> 
> EEM 0% (paper white) Control: (96.83, 1.03, -3.49)
> 
>                      Change: (-0.04, -1.4, 4.48)
> 
>       Comment: As we know, the paper yellows.
>                This will affect mostly the highlight results.
> 
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 5% Control: (92.76, 1.20, -3.79)
> 
>                          Change: (0.16, -1.49, 4.92)
> 
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 5% Control: (92.79, 0.83, -3.98)
> 
>                     Change: (-0.02, -1.59, 4.94)
> 
> 
> 
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 10% Control: (88.35, 1.07, -3.11)
> 
>                           Change: (0.52, -1.39, 4.73)
> 
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 10% Control: (89.18, 0.34, -3.34)
> 
>                      Change: (-0.04, -1.41, 4.53)
> 
> 
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 50% Control: (53.55, 0.72, 0.38)
> 
>                           Change: (0.67, -0.55, 2.04)
> 
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 50% Control: (54.04, 1.96, -0.27)
> 
>                      Change: (0.08, -0.68, 1.93)
> 
> 2200 UT7 New Base 50% Control: (53.53, 1.17, 0.14)
> 
>                       Change: (-0.14, -0.68, 2.04)
> 
> Kirkland UT7 50% Control: (56.54, -0.52, -4.17)
> 
>                  Change: (-0.33, -0.56, 1.24)
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Steve Kale

Thanks!!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:50:50 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland
> 
> No, Eboni is not really a "UT" ink.  It's a different base entirely.  So,
> the change does not affect it as far as I know.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Steve Kale

I know that there is a lot "concern" out there re the use of yellow ink by
the Epson Adv B&W driver.  If the yellow ink were a real issue, I would have
expected a greater difference in hue shift between the K3 results and the
UT7 results, particularly in the b axis.  Thoughts?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>

> 
> Interesting that the colour shift is extremely close - really only the
> luminance figures have anything close to a meaningful difference.  Am I
> reading your numbers correctly?  Where you have a positive change in L* is
> that a fall in L* or increase?  I would also suggest that the differences in
> L* are trivial.  For example, a change of 0.67 of a base of around 53.55 is
> a mere 0.012 in density.  It is, however, very comforting to know that the
> UT7 and Epson K3 inks are in the same league.  This should give UT7
> purchases a lot of assurance with respect to the relative endurance of their
> ink.
>

RE: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Paul Roark

Steve,

> Interesting that the colour shift is extremely close - really only the
> luminance figures have anything close to a meaningful difference.  Am I
> reading your numbers correctly?

Yes, that is how I see it also.

>  Where you have a positive change in L* is that a fall in L* or increase? 

Where there is fade, the change in L would be positive.  Where the Change in
L is negative, there is an apparent increase in density as opposed to
fading.

I've seen density increases before, and I'm not sure if the carbon actually
increases a bit initially or if the variance is in the meter or control
strip.  The X-Rite is not as stable as I'd like.  As such, the initial
measure and the post-fade-test measure might be affected by the meter
variances.  So, I measure all at one sitting and I also measure both the
control strip and fade test strip.  The control strip, of course, might be
affected by the printer variances, even though printed at the same time on
the same piece of paper.  Some of the negative L changes in this test were
negative both with respect to the initial, pre-fade-test measure and the
control strip.  However, that doesn't really answer the question with 100%
certainty.  At the price of a spectrophotometer I can afford, consistency
from session to session is just not good enough given the very small changes
that we're talking about.  On the other hand, within a single measuring
session, the consistency is sufficient for the relative measures -- the
comparisons -- to be valid.

> I would also suggest that the differences in L* are trivial.

These are just initial readings.  A longer test is needed to be sure what is
going on.  However, in the past, initial readings have been good predictors
of relative performance over a longer test.

That said, I think the fade rates (not absolute amounts) are significantly
different.  They may indicate that UT7 prints are almost twice as lightfast
as the K3 images printed with the AB&W mode.  The pattern was repeated on
all papers tested.

> This should give UT7 purchases a lot of assurance with respect to 
> the relative endurance of their ink.

Yes, but it might make K3 users wonder why they are paying so much more.

I read the results as indicating a rip for K3 or switching to UT inks is
needed for ultimate lightfastness.  The test I did could not isolate where
the relative K3 weakness is coming from -- it could be just the additional
color inks, or it could be the entire inkset.  No UC test I've done has
matched the UT inkset, but the fade rate differential noted here is more
than I've seen in past tests, in particular the test with the UC-based UT7
equivalent I made.  A test with a strip printed with a rip and the minimum
color ink needed to neutralize the warm gray inks will probably be in the
next phase of the test.  This will be able to tell how much of the
differential is coming from the excess of color inks in the ABW mode prints.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:05:43 -0700
> > To: DigitalB&WPrint <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, &
> Kirkland
> >
> > My latest fade test (compact fluorescent light) reached 600 hours.  So,
> I
> > have some initial fade results.
> >
> > The short version:  UT7 showed less fading than the 4800 "Advanced B&W"
> mode
> > prints both in the highlights and at 50%; the MIS new base does not
> appear
> > to negatively affect UT performance; and inks on Kirkland paper are very
> > stable.
> >
> >
> > Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X-Rite
> DTP 22
> > spectrophotometer.  The same paper batches were used for all
> comparisons.
> > The results shown are the average of 3 readings.  The affects of the
> > variability of the spectrophotometer were minimized by reading
> comparison
> > test strips at the same time.  The actual starting, pre-fade densities
> may
> > vary from the control test strips, but comparisons based on the pre-fade
> > measurements resulted in similar comparisons.  The UT7 comparison test
> > strips were printed with "neutral" curves that were modified to match
> the
> > density and tone of the 4800 test strips as closely as reasonably
> possible.
> >
> >
> > Spectrophotometer readings:
> >
> > EEM 0% (paper white) Control: (96.83, 1.03, -3.49)
> >
> >                      Change: (-0.04, -1.4, 4.48)
> >
> >       Comment: As we know, the paper yellows.
> >                This will affect mostly the highlight results.
> >
> > 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 5% Control: (92.76, 1.20, -3.79)
> >
> >                          Change: (0.16, -1.49, 4.92)
> >
> > 7600 UT7 Neutral 5% Control: (92.79, 0.83, -3.98)
> >
> >                     Change: (-0.02, -1.59, 4.94)
> >
> >
> >
> > 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 10% Control: (88.35, 1.07, -3.11)
> >
> >                           Change: (0.52, -1.39, 4.73)
> >
> > 7600 UT7 Neutral 10% Control: (89.18, 0.34, -3.34)
> >
> >                      Change: (-0.04, -1.41, 4.53)
> >
> >
> > 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 50% Control: (53.55, 0.72, 0.38)
> >
> >                           Change: (0.67, -0.55, 2.04)
> >
> > 7600 UT7 Neutral 50% Control: (54.04, 1.96, -0.27)
> >
> >                      Change: (0.08, -0.68, 1.93)
> >
> > 2200 UT7 New Base 50% Control: (53.53, 1.17, 0.14)
> >
> >                       Change: (-0.14, -0.68, 2.04)
> >
> > Kirkland UT7 50% Control: (56.54, -0.52, -4.17)
> >
> >                  Change: (-0.33, -0.56, 1.24)
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
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RE: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Paul Roark

I too am surprised the yellow didn't reduce the change in the a* readings.
I thought that might have been why they put it there.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
> Kale
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:17 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, &
> Kirkland
> 
> I know that there is a lot "concern" out there re the use of yellow ink by
> the Epson Adv B&W driver.  If the yellow ink were a real issue, I would
> have
> expected a greater difference in hue shift between the K3 results and the
> UT7 results, particularly in the b axis.  Thoughts?
> 
> 
> > From: Steve Kale <stevekale@btinternet.com>
> 
> >
> > Interesting that the colour shift is extremely close - really only the
> > luminance figures have anything close to a meaningful difference.  Am I
> > reading your numbers correctly?  Where you have a positive change in L*
> is
> > that a fall in L* or increase?  I would also suggest that the
> differences in
> > L* are trivial.  For example, a change of 0.67 of a base of around 53.55
> is
> > a mere 0.012 in density.  It is, however, very comforting to know that
> the
> > UT7 and Epson K3 inks are in the same league.  This should give UT7
> > purchases a lot of assurance with respect to the relative endurance of
> their
> > ink.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
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> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X-
Rite DTP 22
> spectrophotometer.  

Just had a quick question about your measurement technique...

When you are measuring the samples 3 times, are you reading the 
patches dark to light (or light to dark)in a complete pass, and then 
making 2 more passes, or are you measuring each patch 3 times and 
then moving to the next patch? Owning an old DTP22, the accuracy 
seems to be higher if you measure the entire strip, and then start 
over. Something about multiple readings of the same patch seems to 
make it less accurate. Why? I have no idea, my i1 does the same thing.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Paul Roark

> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X-
> Rite DTP 22
> > spectrophotometer.
> 
> Just had a quick question about your measurement technique...
> 
> When you are measuring the samples 3 times, are you reading the
> patches dark to light (or light to dark)in a complete pass, and then
> making 2 more passes, or are you measuring each patch 3 times and
> then moving to the next patch? Owning an old DTP22, the accuracy
> seems to be higher if you measure the entire strip, and then start
> over. Something about multiple readings of the same patch seems to
> make it less accurate. Why? I have no idea, my i1 does the same thing.
> 

I read each patch separately, not as a strip.  I thought I'd get the most
consistency by reading the 50% patch of the control strip, then the fade
test strip, then back to the control strip, etc.  From what I can tell, the
X-Rite is quite consistent within an individual session.  I suspect one of
the main sources of inaccuracy is heat -- including how long the instrument
has warmed up.  I'm not sure how long it needs to or if I'd be better off
just leaving it plugged in.  

Also, and a bit surprisingly, I found by manually calibrating it in quick
succession, before there would be time for the internal temperature to
change, it was not exactly the same after each calibration.  It's not that
it changes all that much, but for the small density changes I was trying to
measure, the minor inconsistencies are material.  Again, however, within a
single "session" -- same time and no re-calibration -- the meter is quite
consistent.  That is why I decided to go with the Control and Test strips as
opposed to the Test Strip's initial pre-test readings.  Although the test
strips were all read initially within a single session.  So, to the extent
whole session may have been affected by variance, it would be equally
affected.

At any rate, I try to eliminate as many variables as possible, since I'm
really only interested in comparing inksets and papers against each other.
I think either using the control or initial readings gives results that are
valid for that purpose even if the absolute readings are not entirely
consistent.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by dfaprinting

In my use of the DTP22, I found that it was very consistant over 
time. By that I mean that measurements would be very similar in 
different sessions, as long as you calibrate before each session. And 
actually, I think the DTP22 had better consistancy when reading a 
single patch multiple times than my i1. If I rest the i1 over a 
patch, and read that patch time after time, the value changes each 
time, and the values also increase each time. I can change a 1.7 
patch into a 1.5 by simply reading a dozen or more times in a row, 
it's very strange. Now if I alternate between that black patch and 
paper white, that increase does not happen. The DTP22 was just a 
random value that hovered around the "correct" value when you read 
the same patch multiple times without measuring something different, 
which is more along the line of what you would expect. And the 
shocker was that my 1995 DTP22 measurements were very close to the i1 
when I first got the i1, the old thing held up very well over time. I 
almost even sent it back to Xrite to be tweaked, but now that seems 
like money poorly spent when another $400 will get you a brand new i1 
that reads much faster than the DTP22 ever could. I should probably 
sell the DTP22 and the DTP32 (old model) that I have.

The other shocker is how accurate the Color Savvy Colormouse was. For 
density reading that would make a decent tool to use.

Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by scott_now_coming

Paul,

I don't have a spectrophotometer, so the "numbers" don't have a lot 
of meaning to me in terms of "real world" results.

I was wondering if when you viewed these prints side-by-side, you 
could see a difference with your "control" print.

Thanks,
Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> My latest fade test (compact fluorescent light) reached 600 hours.  
So, I
> have some initial fade results.
> 
> The short version:  UT7 showed less fading than the 4800 "Advanced 
B&W" mode
> prints both in the highlights and at 50%; the MIS new base does not 
appear
> to negatively affect UT performance; and inks on Kirkland paper are 
very
> stable.
> 
> 
> Notes: The results are expressed in Lab and were read with the X-
Rite DTP 22
> spectrophotometer.  The same paper batches were used for all 
comparisons.
> The results shown are the average of 3 readings.  The affects of the
> variability of the spectrophotometer were minimized by reading 
comparison
> test strips at the same time.  The actual starting, pre-fade 
densities may
> vary from the control test strips, but comparisons based on the pre-
fade
> measurements resulted in similar comparisons.  The UT7 comparison 
test
> strips were printed with "neutral" curves that were modified to 
match the
> density and tone of the 4800 test strips as closely as reasonably 
possible.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> Spectrophotometer readings:
> 
> EEM 0% (paper white) Control: (96.83, 1.03, -3.49)
> 
>                      Change: (-0.04, -1.4, 4.48)
> 
>       Comment: As we know, the paper yellows.  
>                This will affect mostly the highlight results.
> 
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 5% Control: (92.76, 1.20, -3.79)
> 
>                          Change: (0.16, -1.49, 4.92)
> 
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 5% Control: (92.79, 0.83, -3.98)
> 
>                     Change: (-0.02, -1.59, 4.94)
> 
> 
> 
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 10% Control: (88.35, 1.07, -3.11)
> 
>                           Change: (0.52, -1.39, 4.73)
> 
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 10% Control: (89.18, 0.34, -3.34)
> 
>                      Change: (-0.04, -1.41, 4.53)
> 
> 
> 4800 EEM AB&W Neutral 50% Control: (53.55, 0.72, 0.38)
> 
>                           Change: (0.67, -0.55, 2.04)
> 
> 7600 UT7 Neutral 50% Control: (54.04, 1.96, -0.27)
> 
>                      Change: (0.08, -0.68, 1.93)
> 
> 2200 UT7 New Base 50% Control: (53.53, 1.17, 0.14)
> 
>                       Change: (-0.14, -0.68, 2.04)
> 
> Kirkland UT7 50% Control: (56.54, -0.52, -4.17)
> 
>                  Change: (-0.33, -0.56, 1.24)
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Paul Roark

Scott,

> I don't have a spectrophotometer, so the "numbers" don't have a lot
> of meaning to me in terms of "real world" results.
> 
> I was wondering if when you viewed these prints side-by-side, you
> could see a difference with your "control" print...

No, I'm trying to predict the future based on very initial fade test
results.  That's why I'm having to fight the tiny spectrophotometer
variances.  That's also, perhaps, one reason Wilhelm runs the tests all the
way out to a 30% fade.  But, that just takes too long for me.  

So, while I will continue this test, I've found pigments tend to fade in a
rather linear fashion.  In the past the major exception was the burning off
of any dyes that were in the mix.  (OBAs are, in effect if not technically,
dyes also.)  In the past, I'd see those results in 1/12 the time (100 hours
with a light half the brightness).  Since the current generation of pigs has
no dyes in the ink, the "initial" (600 hour) fade rate results are probably
reasonably indicative of longer term performance.  I'll start reacting to
what I've seen now, even as I extend the test.  I'll also throw in a few
more test strips (for example, OEM ink with a rip versus with AB&W printing)
and take out other test so that I get more information from the next phase.
I do this mostly to calculate what my next move will be; the 600 hour mark
is just the point at which I've found the results are accurate enough to
make initial decisions as to that next move.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Paul Roark

Interesting how these things work.  I think I found in lens testing that the
best way to get a good focus with an AF system was to have it come at the
correct value from both directions and then average the 2 -- that seemed to
cancel out the system's tendency to overshoot or whatever.  With the DPT22 I
ended up doing close to what you did -- alternate between test strips.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> dfaprinting
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:23 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, &
> Kirkland
> 
> In my use of the DTP22, I found that it was very consistant over
> time. By that I mean that measurements would be very similar in
> different sessions, as long as you calibrate before each session. And
> actually, I think the DTP22 had better consistancy when reading a
> single patch multiple times than my i1. If I rest the i1 over a
> patch, and read that patch time after time, the value changes each
> time, and the values also increase each time. I can change a 1.7
> patch into a 1.5 by simply reading a dozen or more times in a row,
> it's very strange. Now if I alternate between that black patch and
> paper white, that increase does not happen. The DTP22 was just a
> random value that hovered around the "correct" value when you read
> the same patch multiple times without measuring something different,
> which is more along the line of what you would expect. And the
> shocker was that my 1995 DTP22 measurements were very close to the i1
> when I first got the i1, the old thing held up very well over time. I
> almost even sent it back to Xrite to be tweaked, but now that seems
> like money poorly spent when another $400 will get you a brand new i1
> that reads much faster than the DTP22 ever could. I should probably
> sell the DTP22 and the DTP32 (old model) that I have.
> 
> The other shocker is how accurate the Color Savvy Colormouse was. For
> density reading that would make a decent tool to use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

[Digital BW] Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by scott_now_coming

Thanks, Paul. eom.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> > I don't have a spectrophotometer, so the "numbers" don't have a 
lot
> > of meaning to me in terms of "real world" results.
> > 
> > I was wondering if when you viewed these prints side-by-side, you
> > could see a difference with your "control" print...
> 
> No, I'm trying to predict the future based on very initial fade test
> results.  That's why I'm having to fight the tiny spectrophotometer
> variances.  That's also, perhaps, one reason Wilhelm runs the tests 
all the
> way out to a 30% fade.  But, that just takes too long for me.  
> 
> So, while I will continue this test, I've found pigments tend to 
fade in a
> rather linear fashion.  In the past the major exception was the 
burning off
> of any dyes that were in the mix.  (OBAs are, in effect if not 
technically,
> dyes also.)  In the past, I'd see those results in 1/12 the time 
(100 hours
> with a light half the brightness).  Since the current generation of 
pigs has
> no dyes in the ink, the "initial" (600 hour) fade rate results are 
probably
> reasonably indicative of longer term performance.  I'll start 
reacting to
> what I've seen now, even as I extend the test.  I'll also throw in 
a few
> more test strips (for example, OEM ink with a rip versus with AB&W 
printing)
> and take out other test so that I get more information from the 
next phase.
> I do this mostly to calculate what my next move will be; the 600 
hour mark
> is just the point at which I've found the results are accurate 
enough to
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> make initial decisions as to that next move.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7, MIS old v. new, & Kirkland

2005-08-17 by Clayton Jones

Paul,

>I'll also throw in a few more test strips (for example, OEM ink 
>with a rip versus with AB&W printing)

I noticed that with the same image printed twice with same ABW
setting, with only the paper type being different, that the Enhanced
Matte setting used C and M much more aggressively than the VFA
setting.  It looked like Enh Mt used C/M, and VFA used LC/LM.  I'm
wondering if they would fade differently...I can send test strips if
you wish to test this.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

2400 VFA dots (was Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7 ...)

2005-08-27 by Paul Roark

Clayton,

On August 17 you wrote:
 
> I noticed ... that the Enhanced
> Matte setting used C and M much more aggressively than the VFA
> setting.  It looked like Enh Mt used C/M, and VFA used LC/LM...

I finally got around to printing with the Velvet Fine Art setting and
compared it to a print with just the media type setting changed to EEM.
They look about the same to me.  See
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/2400_VFA-EEM-5pc.jpg for 1600 dpi scans of the
5% patches -- both on the same piece of EEM and scanned at the same time.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

2400 VFA dots (was Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7 ...)

2005-08-27 by Clayton Jones

Hello Paul,

>I finally got around to printing with the Velvet Fine Art setting 
>and compared it to a print with just the media type setting changed 
>to EEM. They look about the same to me.  See
>http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/2400_VFA-EEM-5pc.jpg for 1600 dpi 
>scans of the 5% patches -- both on the same piece of EEM and scanned 
>at the same time.

Very interesting.  I distinctly remember that the C/M dots looked
noticeably more intense.  Can't remember if it was on EEM though. 
That all seems like ages ago now, even though it's just been a couple
of weeks.  I have finally arrived at a good workflow that looks like
it will do the job for now.  Next thing is to get some Eboni working
in it, have you tried that yet?  I'm eager for someone else to try
with the MIS carts to see if they have the same problem with banding
that I had.

Thanks for doing the scan, it clears up that question.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

2400 VFA dots (was Re: Fade test -- 4800 v. UT7 ...)

2005-08-27 by Clayton Jones

Paul,

> Next thing is to get some Eboni working
>in it, have you tried that yet?  

Just saw your Eboni/2400 post.  Glad to hear there were no banding
problems.  I'll have to give it another go.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

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