Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by edrudolpho

Hi all.... I got a pack of Innova Fibaprint Glossy from Jim Doyle and took it over to Calumet 
to get them to make a test print for me (I don't have a K3 printer).  The test was done on a 
4800.  The first two tries, the paper got buckled as it tried to push through the pizza 
rollers.  The third try, the fellow increased the suction and the paper made it through 
okay.

Can people who've been printing with this paper on 4800s or 2400s talk about their 
experience with paper feed.  I'm particularly interested in the 2400, since my workroom 
has no space for a 4800.

By the way, the print was impressive.

thanks for any info
Ed

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by Carl Schofield

Ed,

I just started using this paper with both my 4000 and 2400 printers.   
No feed problems.  I use the front straight thru feed path with the  
2400 and manual feed with the 4000.  Stiff paper but as I said no  
feed problems using my methods.  Yes, beautiful prints - particularly  
B&W.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 6, 2006, at 3:25 PM, edrudolpho wrote:

> Hi all.... I got a pack of Innova Fibaprint Glossy from Jim Doyle  
> and took it over to Calumet
> to get them to make a test print for me (I don't have a K3  
> printer).  The test was done on a
> 4800.  The first two tries, the paper got buckled as it tried to  
> push through the pizza
> rollers.  The third try, the fellow increased the suction and the  
> paper made it through
> okay.
>
> Can people who've been printing with this paper on 4800s or 2400s  
> talk about their
> experience with paper feed.  I'm particularly interested in the  
> 2400, since my workroom
> has no space for a 4800.
>
> By the way, the print was impressive.
>
> thanks for any info
> Ed

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by Tyler Boley

Carl, can you describe the surface?
Thanks,
T

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Ed,
> 
> I just started using this paper with both my 4000 and 2400 printers.   
> No feed problems.  I use the front straight thru feed path with the  
> 2400 and manual feed with the 4000.  Stiff paper but as I said no  
> feed problems using my methods.  Yes, beautiful prints - particularly  
> B&W.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Apr 6, 2006, at 3:25 PM, edrudolpho wrote:
> 
> > Hi all.... I got a pack of Innova Fibaprint Glossy from Jim Doyle  
> > and took it over to Calumet
> > to get them to make a test print for me (I don't have a K3  
> > printer).  The test was done on a
> > 4800.  The first two tries, the paper got buckled as it tried to  
> > push through the pizza
> > rollers.  The third try, the fellow increased the suction and the  
> > paper made it through
> > okay.
> >
> > Can people who've been printing with this paper on 4800s or 2400s  
> > talk about their
> > experience with paper feed.  I'm particularly interested in the  
> > 2400, since my workroom
> > has no space for a 4800.
> >
> > By the way, the print was impressive.
> >
> > thanks for any info
> > Ed
>

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by edrudolpho

Carl... all I have in hand is one print made using the following settings:

Media:  Premium Semiglossy
Normal

If the print has a fault it's that it shows a slight metamerism.  What inks are you using in 
your 2400 and are you seeing any metamerism?

Ed

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Ed,
> 
> I just started using this paper with both my 4000 and 2400 printers.   
> No feed problems.  I use the front straight thru feed path with the  
> 2400 and manual feed with the 4000.  Stiff paper but as I said no  
> feed problems using my methods.  Yes, beautiful prints - particularly  
> B&W.
> 
> Carl
>

Re: Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by alanrew42

From previous correspondence on this list, I assume that this is the
same as the DaVinci Fibre Gloss paper.

This paper has a slight curl to it out of the box, which has caused
some scuffing of the print through my 2400. I found I had to put a
slight compensating 'reverse curl' on each sheet before feeding it
into the printer. I've used the standard paper feed slot for this,
albeit one A4 sheet at a time. My old 2100 refused to feed this paper
at all, I think because the rollers had some Hahnemuhle dust on them
and couldn't grip the silky surface enough :-( The 2400 feed mechanism
seems significantly different to that of the 2100/2200.

HTH

Alan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho"
<erudolph@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all.... I got a pack of Innova Fibaprint Glossy from Jim Doyle
and took it over to Calumet 
> to get them to make a test print for me (I don't have a K3 printer).
 The test was done on a 
> 4800.  The first two tries, the paper got buckled as it tried to
push through the pizza 
> rollers.  The third try, the fellow increased the suction and the
paper made it through 
> okay.
> 
> Can people who've been printing with this paper on 4800s or 2400s
talk about their 
> experience with paper feed.  I'm particularly interested in the
2400, since my workroom 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> has no space for a 4800.
> 
> By the way, the print was impressive.
> 
> thanks for any info
> Ed
>

Re: Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by john dean

The Crane Silver Rag curls too. It must be the nature of this type of
coating. I wonder about the Hahnemuhle Museum Pearl or whatever they
are calling their fiber glossy stuff that's due out this month. Has
anyone used it? I'm going to wait this all out until I've tried them all.

John

Re: Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by edrudolpho

Actually, the Innova 8.5x11 cut sheets came in a plastic portfolio like case, and the sheets 
came out of it flat.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> The Crane Silver Rag curls too. It must be the nature of this type of
> coating. I wonder about the Hahnemuhle Museum Pearl or whatever they
> are calling their fiber glossy stuff that's due out this month. Has
> anyone used it? I'm going to wait this all out until I've tried them all.
> 
> John
>

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by Carl Schofield

No metamerism with either the MIS K4 inks in the 2400 and K4 without  
LLK in the 4000.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:12 PM, edrudolpho wrote:

>
> Carl... all I have in hand is one print made using the following  
> settings:
>
> Media:  Premium Semiglossy
> Normal
>
> If the print has a fault it's that it shows a slight metamerism.   
> What inks are you using in
> your 2400 and are you seeing any metamerism?
>
> Ed
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield  
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> Ed,
>>
>> I just started using this paper with both my 4000 and 2400 printers.
>> No feed problems.  I use the front straight thru feed path with the
>> 2400 and manual feed with the 4000.  Stiff paper but as I said no
>> feed problems using my methods.  Yes, beautiful prints - particularly
>> B&W.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines”  
> in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by Carl Schofield

I'll try.  I'm using sheets (11x17) with MIS K4 inks in the 2400 and  
4000 (minus LLK and with ColorBurst RIP in the latter).  Bright white  
color (I assume lots of OBs).  Stiff (they all seem to have this  
characteristic) but not curled.  Texture and gloss both only slightly  
more than a sheet of air dried Oriental Seagull F Glossy silver gel  
paper.  Dmax about 2.2 but the bright white surface and soft gloss  
produces very deep blacks and high contrast.  I like it and would  
like it even more with just a tad less texture and gloss.  B&W prints  
are what I would call "punchy" on this paper.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:02 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> Carl, can you describe the surface?
> Thanks,
> T
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> Ed,
>>
>> I just started using this paper with both my 4000 and 2400 printers.
>> No feed problems.  I use the front straight thru feed path with the
>> 2400 and manual feed with the 4000.  Stiff paper but as I said no
>> feed problems using my methods.  Yes, beautiful prints - particularly
>> B&W.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> On Apr 6, 2006, at 3:25 PM, edrudolpho wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all.... I got a pack of Innova Fibaprint Glossy from Jim Doyle
>>> and took it over to Calumet
>>> to get them to make a test print for me (I don't have a K3
>>> printer).  The test was done on a
>>> 4800.  The first two tries, the paper got buckled as it tried to
>>> push through the pizza
>>> rollers.  The third try, the fellow increased the suction and the
>>> paper made it through
>>> okay.
>>>
>>> Can people who've been printing with this paper on 4800s or 2400s
>>> talk about their
>>> experience with paper feed.  I'm particularly interested in the
>>> 2400, since my workroom
>>> has no space for a 4800.
>>>
>>> By the way, the print was impressive.
>>>
>>> thanks for any info
>>> Ed

RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-06 by Jim Doyle

Hi gang The Paper is Called F-Type Gloss.. 

I don’t want you to confuse others because FibaPrint is another Matte
surface paper

Cheers

Jim Doyle
 
J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
114 Old Orchard Rd
Cherry Hill NJ 08003
856-424-8660
www.shadesofpaper.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Schofield
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:39 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

No metamerism with either the MIS K4 inks in the 2400 and K4 without  
LLK in the 4000.

Carl

On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:12 PM, edrudolpho wrote:

>
> Carl... all I have in hand is one print made using the following  
> settings:
>
> Media:  Premium Semiglossy
> Normal
>
> If the print has a fault it's that it shows a slight metamerism.   
> What inks are you using in
> your 2400 and are you seeing any metamerism?
>
> Ed
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield  
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> Ed,
>>
>> I just started using this paper with both my 4000 and 2400 printers.
>> No feed problems.  I use the front straight thru feed path with the
>> 2400 and manual feed with the 4000.  Stiff paper but as I said no
>> feed problems using my methods.  Yes, beautiful prints - particularly
>> B&W.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines”  
> in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 



-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 4/5/2006
 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 4/5/2006

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@...> wrote:
>
> I'll try.  I'm using sheets (11x17) with MIS K4 inks in the 2400 and  
> 4000 (minus LLK and with ColorBurst RIP in the latter).  Bright white  
> color (I assume lots of OBs).

I heard the Hahnemuhle will have more, and appear bluer, so this may
be the middle compromise. We'll see about their surface, but I really
don't like blue paper.

>  Stiff (they all seem to have this  
> characteristic) but not curled.  Texture and gloss both only slightly  
> more than a sheet of air dried Oriental Seagull F Glossy silver gel  
> paper.

Darned if I can remember what that looked like...
How about compared to SilverRag?
Thanks for this, if only I had my own samples <G>.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-06 by Carl Schofield

Smoother surface than silver rag and it doesn't have the glittery  
reflections that silver rag has (or at least what I saw in the  
beta).  Not as warm as the silver rag paper ,but not really a "blue"  
white either.  Here are some lab data for the Innova F Type paper  
white: L  96.03	a 0.70	b -4.20

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 6, 2006, at 7:27 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> I'll try.  I'm using sheets (11x17) with MIS K4 inks in the 2400 and
>> 4000 (minus LLK and with ColorBurst RIP in the latter).  Bright white
>> color (I assume lots of OBs).
>
> I heard the Hahnemuhle will have more, and appear bluer, so this may
> be the middle compromise. We'll see about their surface, but I really
> don't like blue paper.
>
>>  Stiff (they all seem to have this
>> characteristic) but not curled.  Texture and gloss both only slightly
>> more than a sheet of air dried Oriental Seagull F Glossy silver gel
>> paper.
>
> Darned if I can remember what that looked like...
> How about compared to SilverRag?
> Thanks for this, if only I had my own samples <G>.
> Tyler

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by Helen Bach

So it is also different from this paper on the Innova website?

"Photo Gloss FibaPrint 210 g/m2

Glossy FibaPrint has been modelled on the traditional gloss
fibre-based material used in conventional photography."

Thanks,
Helen



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle"
<jdoyle1713@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi gang The Paper is Called F-Type Gloss.. 
> 
> I don't want you to confuse others because FibaPrint is another Matte
> surface paper
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jim Doyle
>  
> J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
> 114 Old Orchard Rd
> Cherry Hill NJ 08003
> 856-424-8660
> www.shadesofpaper.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by John Vitollo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@...> wrote:
>
> Smoother surface than silver rag and it doesn't have the glittery  
> reflections that silver rag has (or at least what I saw in the  
> beta).  Not as warm as the silver rag paper ,but not really a "blue"  
> white either.  Here are some lab data for the Innova F Type paper  
> white: L  96.03	a 0.70	b -4.20

Silver Rag LAB values from production roll:

               L 96.10     a 0.81       b 1.13

I just started building Silver Rag B+W profiles for InkJetControl and have not printed an image 
yet so no paper evaluation at this time...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by Jim Doyle

Helen and Everyone

 

It�s the Same Paper But In the US They are calling it Innova F-Type Gloss 

 

Jim Doyle

 

J. Doyle Enterprises LLC

114 Old Orchard Rd

Cherry Hill NJ 08003

856-424-8660

HYPERLINK "http://www.shadesofpaper.com"www.shadesofpaper.com

 

   _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Helen
Bach
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 8:06 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

 

So it is also different from this paper on the Innova website?

"Photo Gloss FibaPrint 210 g/m2

Glossy FibaPrint has been modelled on the traditional gloss
fibre-based material used in conventional photography."

Thanks,
Helen



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle"
<jdoyle1713@...> wrote:
>
> Hi gang The Paper is Called F-Type Gloss.. 
> 
> I don't want you to confuse others because FibaPrint is another Matte
> surface paper
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jim Doyle
>  
> J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
> 114 Old Orchard Rd
> Cherry Hill NJ 08003
> 856-424-8660
> www.shadesofpaper.com
>  







Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint"http://groups.ya
hoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/"http://gr
oups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND
�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.





SPONSORED LINKS 


HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+wedding+photography&w1=Digital+
wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+coll
ege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photog
raphy+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=Umur-3rsLOic7dZMwVL94w"Digital wedding
photography 

HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Learn+digital+photography&w1=Digital+we
dding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+colleg
e&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photogra
phy+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=emApqtvj0kHQhppIzRrNgw"Learn digital photography 

HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+college&w1=Digital+
wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+coll
ege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photog
raphy+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=aIiABJLTZsUnmWBs4mZwuA"Digital photography
college 


HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+
photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=D
igital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+co
urse&c=6&s=188&.sig=pJmwqgVzec3JGBtWYlPbOg"Digital photography 

HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+web+site&w1=Digital
+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+col
lege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photo
graphy+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=BMII8rtDZlAtVdZsPhaZqw"Digital photography web
site 

HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+w
edding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+colle
ge&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photogr
aphy+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=OrnrutXVhHZu-7E7ccLtuw"Digital photography course


 

   _____  

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 

 

*	 Visit your group "HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint"DigitalBlackandW
hiteThePrint" on the web.
  
*	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 HYPERLINK
"mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Uns
ubscribe"DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
*	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

 

   _____  


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 4/5/2006



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 4/5/2006
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by edrudolpho

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach" <helenbach@...> 
wrote:
>
> So it is also different from this paper on the Innova website?
> 
> "Photo Gloss FibaPrint 210 g/m2
> 
> Glossy FibaPrint has been modelled on the traditional gloss
> fibre-based material used in conventional photography."
> 
> Thanks,
> Helen

Helen, the paper I posted about, the F-Type Gloss, is 300g/m2.

Here are the specs

Fiba-Print Gloss F-Type
Ultra Smooth, Fourdrinier Made, Acid Free, Brilliant White

Thickness .37mm, Whiteness 88.32%, Opacity 98.98%, pH 7.9

Ed

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by Helen Bach

Ed,

If this is the same as the Da Vinci, I've been using it for a while
with K3 inks in a 2200 and had no problems feeding it through the rear
slot. I've measured a D-max of 2.68 with it, so now I believe the
claims of 2.7 by Chau Digital. There's not much you can do with that
much density, because few people look at prints in enough light to see
detail down there - but it is very impressive in good lighting.

I like both the Silver Rag and the Innova paper. The Oriental baryta
paper has been a bit disappointing so far.

Best,
Helen 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho"
<erudolph@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach"
<helenbach@> 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> wrote:
> >
> > So it is also different from this paper on the Innova website?
> > 
> > "Photo Gloss FibaPrint 210 g/m2
> > 
> > Glossy FibaPrint has been modelled on the traditional gloss
> > fibre-based material used in conventional photography."
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Helen
> 
> Helen, the paper I posted about, the F-Type Gloss, is 300g/m2.
> 
> Here are the specs
> 
> Fiba-Print Gloss F-Type
> Ultra Smooth, Fourdrinier Made, Acid Free, Brilliant White
> 
> Thickness .37mm, Whiteness 88.32%, Opacity 98.98%, pH 7.9
> 
> Ed
>

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Carl Schofield

I just measured Innova F Type paper white again using both my i1 (no  
UV filter) and a UV filtered x-rite pulse.  I took 4 measurements  
with each.  The average i1 reading was L 96.3 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The  
average x-rite reading was L 96.2 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The lack of UV  
filtration is probably why the i1 gave such a low b value.  The Lab b  
value difference also is probably indicative of OBA presence.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:09 PM, John Vitollo wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield  
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> Smoother surface than silver rag and it doesn't have the glittery
>> reflections that silver rag has (or at least what I saw in the
>> beta).  Not as warm as the silver rag paper ,but not really a "blue"
>> white either.  Here are some lab data for the Innova F Type paper
>> white: L  96.03	a 0.70	b -4.20
>
> Silver Rag LAB values from production roll:
>
>                L 96.10     a 0.81       b 1.13
>
> I just started building Silver Rag B+W profiles for InkJetControl  
> and have not printed an image
> yet so no paper evaluation at this time...
>

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach" 
<helenbach@...> wrote:
>
> Ed,
> 
> If this is the same as the Da Vinci, I've been using it for a while
> with K3 inks in a 2200 and had no problems feeding it through the 
rear
> slot. I've measured a D-max of 2.68 with it, so now I believe the
> claims of 2.7 by Chau Digital. There's not much you can do with that
> much density, because few people look at prints in enough light to 
see
> detail down there - but it is very impressive in good lighting.
> 
> I like both the Silver Rag and the Innova paper. The Oriental baryta
> paper has been a bit disappointing so far.
> 
> Best,
> Helen 


Helen, what densitometer are you using to measure your papers?

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Ernst Dinkla

A3s went through a 10000 (MIS 7600), 9800 (K4), 9600 (MIS 
7600), 7600 (UC) without a problem.
Paper is flat in the box.
Customer likes the proofs.

Ernst
-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Re: [Digital BW] Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by Ernst Dinkla

edrudolpho wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach" <helenbach@...> 
> wrote:
>> So it is also different from this paper on the Innova website?
>>
>> "Photo Gloss FibaPrint 210 g/m2
>>
>> Glossy FibaPrint has been modelled on the traditional gloss
>> fibre-based material used in conventional photography."
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Helen
> 
> Helen, the paper I posted about, the F-Type Gloss, is 300g/m2.
> 
> Here are the specs
> 
> Fiba-Print Gloss F-Type
> Ultra Smooth, Fourdrinier Made, Acid Free, Brilliant White
> 
> Thickness .37mm, Whiteness 88.32%, Opacity 98.98%, pH 7.9
> 
> Ed

That's what I have here too.

Ernst
-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by alanrew42

Carl, the two figures you give for the 'b' reading are the same
(-4.31) so I'm puzzled about your saying they're different... or have
I missed something?
TIA
Alan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I just measured Innova F Type paper white again using both my i1 (no  
> UV filter) and a UV filtered x-rite pulse.  I took 4 measurements  
> with each.  The average i1 reading was L 96.3 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The  
> average x-rite reading was L 96.2 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The lack of UV  
> filtration is probably why the i1 gave such a low b value.  The Lab b  
> value difference also is probably indicative of OBA presence.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:09 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield  
> > <scho@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Smoother surface than silver rag and it doesn't have the glittery
> >> reflections that silver rag has (or at least what I saw in the
> >> beta).  Not as warm as the silver rag paper ,but not really a "blue"
> >> white either.  Here are some lab data for the Innova F Type paper
> >> white: L  96.03	a 0.70	b -4.20
> >
> > Silver Rag LAB values from production roll:
> >
> >                L 96.10     a 0.81       b 1.13
> >
> > I just started building Silver Rag B+W profiles for InkJetControl  
> > and have not printed an image
> > yet so no paper evaluation at this time...
> >
>

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by Helen Bach

Greg,

This is a good question. I used to use a TR924 which was calibrated
with a 1.78 reference for the span, so my D-max readings with K3 inks
on glossy paper were well away from the calibration point. With that
caveat, the readings were around 2.64 for visual D-max. 

Now I've got a PrintFix Pro, and the readings from that are about 0.05
to 0.10 higher for densities in this range after converting L* to
density. I've decided to get an Eye-One/PM bundle, so I'll remeasure
when I have that.

The high D-max readings were obtained with predominantly K3 PK ink,
with a little K3 LC and R800 blue, coated with Krystal Topkote.

Best,
Helen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Helen, what densitometer are you using to measure your papers?
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by Ernst Dinkla

> Here are the specs
> 
> Fiba-Print Gloss F-Type
> Ultra Smooth, Fourdrinier Made, Acid Free, Brilliant White
> 
> Thickness .37mm, Whiteness 88.32%, Opacity 98.98%, pH 7.9
> 
> Ed

Strange enough www.innovaart.com doesn't have it on the list 
yet. I expected the specs there to check whether there is 
really no polyethylene RC barrier in it but the paper isn't 
mentioned there. The 210 gsm variety is there. But no 
reference to RC so I think it is without a barrier, which 
would be good to reduce glycol/glycerol fogging on frame 
glass. With a 210 grams paper without RC flatness may be an 
issue when the ink gets on the paper but hardly before that. 
That's the only advantage I see for RC coated paper. The 300 
grams is flat before and after.
A gloss number of 40% (Dr. Lange 20 degr.) for the 210 grams 
Fiba gloss is also mentioned.

http://www.innovaart.com/docs/innovaGlossFiba210gsm.pdf

What is that F/S and then 28 G/M2 doing there ?

Ernst


-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Carl Schofield

I corrected that mistake in a follow up post:
"Sorry, put in the wrong numbers for x-rite.  Should be L 96.2 a  
-0.52 b 0.56."

So yes they are very different in terms of Lab a and b values  
(particularly the latter).  I think the un-filtered (UV) i1 is really  
not appropriate to use for assessing color of papers containing OBA.   
The Match color profiling software corrects for OBAs but most of us  
have been using MeasureTool for aquiring data when making B&W  
profiles for QTR and I don't believe MT has the capability to make  
the UV adjustment.  I see now why ColorBurst recommends (actually  
requires) the UV filtered hardware solution.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 7, 2006, at 6:57 AM, alanrew42 wrote:

> Carl, the two figures you give for the 'b' reading are the same
> (-4.31) so I'm puzzled about your saying they're different... or have
> I missed something?
> TIA
> Alan
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> I just measured Innova F Type paper white again using both my i1 (no
>> UV filter) and a UV filtered x-rite pulse.  I took 4 measurements
>> with each.  The average i1 reading was L 96.3 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The
>> average x-rite reading was L 96.2 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The lack of UV
>> filtration is probably why the i1 gave such a low b value.  The Lab b
>> value difference also is probably indicative of OBA presence.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:09 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
>>> <scho@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Smoother surface than silver rag and it doesn't have the glittery
>>>> reflections that silver rag has (or at least what I saw in the
>>>> beta).  Not as warm as the silver rag paper ,but not really a  
>>>> "blue"
>>>> white either.  Here are some lab data for the Innova F Type paper
>>>> white: L  96.03	a 0.70	b -4.20
>>>
>>> Silver Rag LAB values from production roll:
>>>
>>>                L 96.10     a 0.81       b 1.13
>>>
>>> I just started building Silver Rag B+W profiles for InkJetControl
>>> and have not printed an image
>>> yet so no paper evaluation at this time...
>>>
>>

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Carl Schofield

Sorry, put in the wrong numbers for x-rite.  Should be L 96.2 a -0.52  
b 0.56.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 6, 2006, at 9:55 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:

> I just measured Innova F Type paper white again using both my i1  
> (no UV filter) and a UV filtered x-rite pulse.  I took 4  
> measurements with each.  The average i1 reading was L 96.3 a 0.69 b  
> -4.31.  The average x-rite reading was L 96.2 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The  
> lack of UV filtration is probably why the i1 gave such a low b  
> value.  The Lab b value difference also is probably indicative of  
> OBA presence.
>
> Carl
>
> On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:09 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl  
>> Schofield <scho@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Smoother surface than silver rag and it doesn't have the glittery
>>> reflections that silver rag has (or at least what I saw in the
>>> beta).  Not as warm as the silver rag paper ,but not really a "blue"
>>> white either.  Here are some lab data for the Innova F Type paper
>>> white: L  96.03	a 0.70	b -4.20
>>
>> Silver Rag LAB values from production roll:
>>
>>                L 96.10     a 0.81       b 1.13
>>
>> I just started building Silver Rag B+W profiles for InkJetControl  
>> and have not printed an image
>> yet so no paper evaluation at this time...
>>

[Digital BW] Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by edrudolpho

Jim.... just to verify....  you are saying that the Photo Gloss Fibaprint at 210g/m2 which is 
listed on the Innova website is the same (except for the weight) as the F-Type Gloss at 300 
gm/m2?

Ed

RE: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by John Moody

I'm not so sure, the OBAs certainly change the apparent paper color, and
that is due to the UV excited fluorescence.
If the OBAs fluoresce, i.e. produce a new wavelength due to the UV content
in the illumination, they the paper color _does_ appear different to us.
Using the UV cut filter prevents any measurement of that effect.
Since the i1 has a single illuminant, IIRC, the fluorescence can't be
measured directly, but it can be inferred by looking at the shape of the
spectral curve.  If it is generally flat, with a hump in the blue, that
looks like OBAs.  With a UV cut filter, you, and the profile software do not
get to make that assessment.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Carl
Schofield
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 8:47 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

I corrected that mistake in a follow up post:
"Sorry, put in the wrong numbers for x-rite.  Should be L 96.2 a
-0.52 b 0.56."

So yes they are very different in terms of Lab a and b values
(particularly the latter).  I think the un-filtered (UV) i1 is really
not appropriate to use for assessing color of papers containing OBA.
The Match color profiling software corrects for OBAs but most of us
have been using MeasureTool for aquiring data when making B&W
profiles for QTR and I don't believe MT has the capability to make
the UV adjustment.  I see now why ColorBurst recommends (actually
requires) the UV filtered hardware solution.

Carl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by James Irelan

On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:35 AM, John Moody wrote:

> I'm not so sure, the OBAs certainly change the apparent paper  
> color, and
> that is due to the UV excited fluorescence.
> John Moody
>

>   I see now why ColorBurst recommends (actually
> requires) the UV filtered hardware solution.
>
> Carl

I'm not so sure, either.  I have a non-UV i1, and I'm reprofiling  
papers for MIS Pro inks in a 7600, printing with ColorBurst.  I'm  
profiling with ProfileMaker 5, which has new targets and seems to be  
profiling much better than earlier versions.  Or maybe it's the ink.   
Or both.  In any case, I'm getting very good results, at least in  
color, and one duo-toned-style RGB b&w image so far.  All look  
excellent to me- no surprises so far.  Admittedly the sample number  
is small so far, but then if a problem with lack of filtration were  
that significant, I think I would have seen it already.

James

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Carl Schofield

Yes, I'm not saying that the un-filtered i1 is not capable of making  
excellent color profiles with the appropriate software (Match or PM  
5).  However, if you just look at raw Lab data from an un-filtered i1  
your assessment of color or neutrality in particular for scanned  
grayscale wedges will not be the same compared to what you measure  
with a UV filtered device.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:50 AM, James Irelan wrote:

>
> On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:35 AM, John Moody wrote:
>
>> I'm not so sure, the OBAs certainly change the apparent paper
>> color, and
>> that is due to the UV excited fluorescence.
>> John Moody
>>
>
>>   I see now why ColorBurst recommends (actually
>> requires) the UV filtered hardware solution.
>>
>> Carl
>
> I'm not so sure, either.  I have a non-UV i1, and I'm reprofiling
> papers for MIS Pro inks in a 7600, printing with ColorBurst.  I'm
> profiling with ProfileMaker 5, which has new targets and seems to be
> profiling much better than earlier versions.  Or maybe it's the ink.
> Or both.  In any case, I'm getting very good results, at least in
> color, and one duo-toned-style RGB b&w image so far.  All look
> excellent to me- no surprises so far.  Admittedly the sample number
> is small so far, but then if a problem with lack of filtration were
> that significant, I think I would have seen it already.
>
> James

Re: [Digital BW] Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by alanrew42

Thanks Carl. I only access this forum via the web interface, not the
emails, and your correction hadn't appeared on the web at the time I
saw your original post. So apologies for any unnecessary hassle.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I corrected that mistake in a follow up post:
> "Sorry, put in the wrong numbers for x-rite.  Should be L 96.2 a  
> -0.52 b 0.56."
> 
> So yes they are very different in terms of Lab a and b values  
> (particularly the latter).  I think the un-filtered (UV) i1 is really  
> not appropriate to use for assessing color of papers containing OBA.   
> The Match color profiling software corrects for OBAs but most of us  
> have been using MeasureTool for aquiring data when making B&W  
> profiles for QTR and I don't believe MT has the capability to make  
> the UV adjustment.  I see now why ColorBurst recommends (actually  
> requires) the UV filtered hardware solution.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Apr 7, 2006, at 6:57 AM, alanrew42 wrote:
> 
> > Carl, the two figures you give for the 'b' reading are the same
> > (-4.31) so I'm puzzled about your saying they're different... or have
> > I missed something?
> > TIA
> > Alan
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> > <scho@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I just measured Innova F Type paper white again using both my i1 (no
> >> UV filter) and a UV filtered x-rite pulse.  I took 4 measurements
> >> with each.  The average i1 reading was L 96.3 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The
> >> average x-rite reading was L 96.2 a 0.69 b -4.31.  The lack of UV
> >> filtration is probably why the i1 gave such a low b value.  The Lab b
> >> value difference also is probably indicative of OBA presence.
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >> On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:09 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
> >>
> >>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> >>> <scho@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Smoother surface than silver rag and it doesn't have the glittery
> >>>> reflections that silver rag has (or at least what I saw in the
> >>>> beta).  Not as warm as the silver rag paper ,but not really a  
> >>>> "blue"
> >>>> white either.  Here are some lab data for the Innova F Type paper
> >>>> white: L  96.03	a 0.70	b -4.20
> >>>
> >>> Silver Rag LAB values from production roll:
> >>>
> >>>                L 96.10     a 0.81       b 1.13
> >>>
> >>> I just started building Silver Rag B+W profiles for InkJetControl
> >>> and have not printed an image
> >>> yet so no paper evaluation at this time...
> >>>
> >>
>

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by alanrew42

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach"
<helenbach@...> wrote:
<snip>
> I've decided to get an Eye-One/PM bundle, so I'll remeasure
> when I have that.
<snup>

Helen, as you're a perfectionist, when you get this bundle you might
want to download Bill Atkinson's profile targets for the Eye-One Pro,
because the standard PMP offering only goes up to 918 patches. With a
well-linearised printer this may be enough, but with my old Epson 2100
with standard driver + inks I found that 4096 patches were needed to
beat it into submission.

Beware also of GM's pricing policy: if, like me, you buy their
'Photostudio Pro' bundle, then the 'Basic' version of MeasureTool that
comes with it won't generate custom profile targets, average multiple
target readings or produce density readings directly (although you can
of course do this yourself from the Lab readings). They use their
dongle mechanism to very precisely limit what you can do in each
bundle unless you pay for an upgrade.

Having said that, multiple target readings can be averaged in Excel
and you can derive your own density readings using BabelColor (or
whatever mechanism you're currently using).

Regards,

Alan

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Carl Schofield

Just to clarify what I'm trying to convey.  The link below is a  
picture showing two Lab plots for step wedge prints made with both  
the i1 (no UV) and xrite-pulse (UV).  Both were printed via  
ColorBurst using a neutral Gray profile for Innova F-Type with MIS K4  
(no LLK) inks in an Epson 4000 printer.  Which is the most accurate  
description of the color/neutrality of the print?

http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Pulse-i1.jpg
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 7, 2006, at 11:41 AM, Carl Schofield wrote:

> Yes, I'm not saying that the un-filtered i1 is not capable of  
> making excellent color profiles with the appropriate software  
> (Match or PM 5).  However, if you just look at raw Lab data from an  
> un-filtered i1 your assessment of color or neutrality in particular  
> for scanned grayscale wedges will not be the same compared to what  
> you measure with a UV filtered device.
>
> Carl
>
> On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:50 AM, James Irelan wrote:
>
>>
>> On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:35 AM, John Moody wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not so sure, the OBAs certainly change the apparent paper
>>> color, and
>>> that is due to the UV excited fluorescence.
>>> John Moody
>>>
>>
>>>   I see now why ColorBurst recommends (actually
>>> requires) the UV filtered hardware solution.
>>>
>>> Carl
>>
>> I'm not so sure, either.  I have a non-UV i1, and I'm reprofiling
>> papers for MIS Pro inks in a 7600, printing with ColorBurst.  I'm
>> profiling with ProfileMaker 5, which has new targets and seems to be
>> profiling much better than earlier versions.  Or maybe it's the ink.
>> Or both.  In any case, I'm getting very good results, at least in
>> color, and one duo-toned-style RGB b&w image so far.  All look
>> excellent to me- no surprises so far.  Admittedly the sample number
>> is small so far, but then if a problem with lack of filtration were
>> that significant, I think I would have seen it already.
>>
>> James
>

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by John Vitollo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@...> wrote:
>
> Just to clarify what I'm trying to convey.  The link below is a  
> picture showing two Lab plots for step wedge prints made with both  
> the i1 (no UV) and xrite-pulse (UV).  Both were printed via  
> ColorBurst using a neutral Gray profile for Innova F-Type with MIS K4  
> (no LLK) inks in an Epson 4000 printer.  Which is the most accurate  
> description of the color/neutrality of the print?
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Pulse-i1.jpg

My guess is the Xrite-Pulse with UV is the accurate plot as the a* and b* values are close to 
neutral.

The Eye-One's b* values are very blue.

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-07 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach" 
<helenbach@...> wrote:
>
> Greg,
> 
> This is a good question. I used to use a TR924 which was calibrated
> with a 1.78 reference for the span, so my D-max readings with K3 
inks
> on glossy paper were well away from the calibration point. With that
> caveat, the readings were around 2.64 for visual D-max. 
> 
> Now I've got a PrintFix Pro, and the readings from that are about 
0.05
> to 0.10 higher for densities in this range after converting L* to
> density. I've decided to get an Eye-One/PM bundle, so I'll remeasure
> when I have that.
> 
> The high D-max readings were obtained with predominantly K3 PK ink,
> with a little K3 LC and R800 blue, coated with Krystal Topkote.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
> 
>

The Printfix Pro (Datacolor 1005) device, and just about all the 
other spectrophotometers from Gretag and Xrite have a specification 
of 2.5D, so when I start seeing numbers below that, I have to 
question where they're coming from. Since I knew you had used 
different densitometers, I thought you might have had something of 
the quality to get accurate readings that low, and thought I would 
ask. To check, I contacted Xrite this morning, and confirmed what I 
thought, here is part of the reply:

"A density value of 0, means the all light is reflected from the 
surface
(again in a specific region of the visible spectrum), a density value 
of
1.0 means that 10% of the light is reflected from the surface, a 
density
value of 2 indicates that 1% of the light is reflected from the 
surface,
a density value of 3 indicates that 0.1% of the light is reflected 
from
the surface. As such values over 2.0 are extremely rare. Because this
metric is log based, when you go beyond 2.5, very small changes in
reflected light will cause very large numerical shifts."

He also said that L*a*b* values can not be directly converted into 
density values, I'll check this later for myself.

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Carl Schofield

I agree.  The prints look dead neutral to me and I don't see the cold  
hue that is suggested by the i1 readings.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 7, 2006, at 2:20 PM, John Vitollo wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield  
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> Just to clarify what I'm trying to convey.  The link below is a
>> picture showing two Lab plots for step wedge prints made with both
>> the i1 (no UV) and xrite-pulse (UV).  Both were printed via
>> ColorBurst using a neutral Gray profile for Innova F-Type with MIS K4
>> (no LLK) inks in an Epson 4000 printer.  Which is the most accurate
>> description of the color/neutrality of the print?
>>
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Pulse-i1.jpg
>
> My guess is the Xrite-Pulse with UV is the accurate plot as the a*  
> and b* values are close to
> neutral.
>
> The Eye-One's b* values are very blue.
>

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@...> wrote:
>
> I agree.  The prints look dead neutral to me and I don't see the 
cold  
> hue that is suggested by the i1 readings.
> 
> Carl

Must be your vision adapting to the different "white point", you might 
see it if you have some no OBA paper to let you vision adjust to, and 
then compare the print to that non OBA paper. Best if viewed in 
sunlight.

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-07 by Carl Schofield

I don't think so.  I can confirm that the i1 over compensates for the  
UV component by making a slightly warm softproof profile compared to  
the pulse softproof.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 7, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Greg wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> I agree.  The prints look dead neutral to me and I don't see the
> cold
>> hue that is suggested by the i1 readings.
>>
>> Carl
>
> Must be your vision adapting to the different "white point", you might
> see it if you have some no OBA paper to let you vision adjust to, and
> then compare the print to that non OBA paper. Best if viewed in
> sunlight.

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-08 by dlruckus

Hi.

 Y'all are talking about the things I asked about the other day  and
got no response on. Oh well, I'll take info any way it comes.

 Don't know about the i1/xrite construction differences but assume
that you mean one has uv filering over it's illuminant source while
the other does not. In either case I wouldn't think there should be
any difference between them as regards visible blue. That is, unless
the xrite is actually cutting off more than uv. Given that, the
differences have to, IMHO, be due to what Greg said, flourescence in
the visible range due to uv excitation of the paper OBA from the i1.

 Something I haven't heard about here to date is the possibility of
light piping via the paper substrait/coating in a brightly lit room.
That includes uv effects if it is present in the area.

 It does occur.

 I learned that the hard way recently while tinkering with a DIY
colorimeter. It was fluctuating cyclicly with time of day at the
density extremes but only at certain spectral points. It turned out to
be sensitive to both of the above effects. In the course of
determining this I played with several papers known to have
substantial OBA content and some I didn't know about but quickly
learned. One of the papers was plain old ordinary cheapo Epson Photo
41141. It turns out that this flouresces like crazy as blue green with
green slightly predominant. Moreover it continues to do so with slowly
declining output for some time after it is placed in the dark.
 Something like that is highly likely to impact almost any instrument
to at least some extent.

Regards
Duane




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
> <scho@> wrote:
> >
> > I agree.  The prints look dead neutral to me and I don't see the 
> cold  
> > hue that is suggested by the i1 readings.
> > 
> > Carl
> 
> Must be your vision adapting to the different "white point", you might 
> see it if you have some no OBA paper to let you vision adjust to, and 
> then compare the print to that non OBA paper. Best if viewed in 
> sunlight.
>

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-08 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" 
<dlruckus@...> wrote:
>
> Hi.
> 
>  Y'all are talking about the things I asked about the other day  and
> got no response on. Oh well, I'll take info any way it comes.
> 


Slightly more info for you to file away...

The i1UV and DTP20UV have slightly different UV fliters, the cutoff 
is at a slightly different place and can be see if you graph the 
spectral measurements of paper white using a paper that has OBA (like 
EEM). Which one is more correct would be difficult to determine. The 
colors are also slightly effected, and certain printers show more 
change in the color than other printers. I just measured some targets 
for an HP 8450, and it shows more change between the two devices than 
the ink that I use, so I would conclude that their inks may contain 
some brighteners. And here is a picture for you:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/i1DTP20test.gif

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-08 by danielsan2222

Greg,

Isnt what this calculator does?

http://www.brucelindbloom.com/

Go to Calc -> Companding Calculator
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> He also said that L*a*b* values can not be directly converted into 
> density values, I'll check this later for myself.
>

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-08 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielsan2222" 
<danielsan2222@...> wrote:
>
> Greg,
> 
> Isnt what this calculator does?
> 
> http://www.brucelindbloom.com/
> 
> Go to Calc -> Companding Calculator
> 


That's why I said I would need to check that out. But I can see where 
the logic goes. If your device can only measure to 2.5D then how can 
you calculate lower than that with a measurement from your device? 
Consider that 2.5D is about 0.5% of the light reflected back into the 
device, that's pretty small. He also said that at that end of the 
scale, really small measurement variations make a huge swing in the 
reported density.

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-09 by dlruckus

Thanks Greg.
 The tag lines on my post were meant to have a smiley but I goofed.
I do appreciate your response. I also still would like any input
possible from those like yourself using different instruments that can
 tell me if they can see any variances of measurements taken with
changes in the ambiant working area light.

Regards
Duane



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" 
> <dlruckus@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi.
> > 
> >  Y'all are talking about the things I asked about the other day  and
> > got no response on. Oh well, I'll take info any way it comes.
> > 
> 
> 
> Slightly more info for you to file away...
> 
> The i1UV and DTP20UV have slightly different UV fliters, the cutoff 
> is at a slightly different place and can be see if you graph the 
> spectral measurements of paper white using a paper that has OBA (like 
> EEM). Which one is more correct would be difficult to determine. The 
> colors are also slightly effected, and certain printers show more 
> change in the color than other printers. I just measured some targets 
> for an HP 8450, and it shows more change between the two devices than 
> the ink that I use, so I would conclude that their inks may contain 
> some brighteners. And here is a picture for you:
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/i1DTP20test.gif
>

Re: RE:Innova F-Type Gloss

2006-04-09 by Helen Bach

Greg,

I share your scepticism about the absolute accuracy of such high
density (low L*) readings. No matter what the accuracy, however, both
the TR924 and the Datacolor 1005 show reasonable precision, and the
patches that result in density readings of, say, 2.6 appear darker
than patches that read 2.5, as long as you view them in good light.

We don't seem to have a problem with a lightmeter that claims a third
of a stop accuracy (equivalent to a step of 0.1 D) over a range of
eighteen stops, so why do we distrust a densitometer or spectrogizmo
over ten stops? The difference between 2.0 and 3.0 can be described as
the difference between 1% and 0.1% (hey, that's only 0.9%, surely the
meter isn't that accurate?) or as three stops.

Whatever the accurate numbers are, the effect is there to see:
impressively deep shadows that are either featureless or full of
detail, depending on what's there and how bright the viewing light is.

Both the TR924 and the DC 1005 are 45/0 instruments, they are not
measuring diffuse reflectance. I've just read the 'density' of my hand
mirror with the DC 1005: 2.33 (L* is 4.3).

Best,
Helen 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> The Printfix Pro (Datacolor 1005) device, and just about all the 
> other spectrophotometers from Gretag and Xrite have a specification 
> of 2.5D, so when I start seeing numbers below that, I have to 
> question where they're coming from. Since I knew you had used 
> different densitometers, I thought you might have had something of 
> the quality to get accurate readings that low, and thought I would 
> ask. To check, I contacted Xrite this morning, and confirmed what I 
> thought, here is part of the reply:
> 
> "A density value of 0, means the all light is reflected from the 
> surface
> (again in a specific region of the visible spectrum), a density value 
> of
> 1.0 means that 10% of the light is reflected from the surface, a 
> density
> value of 2 indicates that 1% of the light is reflected from the 
> surface,
> a density value of 3 indicates that 0.1% of the light is reflected 
> from
> the surface. As such values over 2.0 are extremely rare. Because this
> metric is log based, when you go beyond 2.5, very small changes in
> reflected light will cause very large numerical shifts."
> 
> He also said that L*a*b* values can not be directly converted into 
> density values, I'll check this later for myself.
>

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-09 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" 
<dlruckus@...> wrote:
>
>  tell me if they can see any variances of measurements taken with
> changes in the ambiant working area light.
> 


On some media... Absolutely. Especially with the Pulse since it rides 
about 5mm about the paper. But the same goes for the i1 and DTP22. 
Consider that the DTP 22 has a foot the nearly seals against both the 
paper and the spectro. Normal room illumination doesn't really cause 
too much of a problem, but when daylight comes in from a window, your 
measurements WILL be different. I haven't noticed a difference from 
media, so I'm not sure if that has as much effect as the ambient 
light getting in around the edges of the spectro.

Re: [Digital BW] UV-cut and OBAs Innova Fibaprint Paper Feed

2006-04-09 by dlruckus

My thanks again Greg,

 I asked because I did see what I believe to be from media
differences. The instrument I spoke of has a light tight seal to the
sample surface though of course it doesn't stop light from leaking in
via  the coating or paper itself for the base readings or near.
Particularly for gloss surfaces. It isn't a major issue, as you
mention, except for daylight or something with high uv that impacts
OBA papers. In that case the external light seems to have considerable
impact. Part of this is due to the instrument design as it uses dark
cycle, light cycle comparative measures and is adversely affected by
flourescence during the dark measurement if it is present as well as
contributing to inaccurate readings at very high density values.
 Neither problem was insurmountable, in bright room conditions I just
needed to "bag" it so to speak :-).

Regards
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" 
> <dlruckus@> wrote:
> >
> >  tell me if they can see any variances of measurements taken with
> > changes in the ambiant working area light.
> > 
> 
> 
> On some media... Absolutely. Especially with the Pulse since it rides 
> about 5mm about the paper. But the same goes for the i1 and DTP22. 
> Consider that the DTP 22 has a foot the nearly seals against both the 
> paper and the spectro. Normal room illumination doesn't really cause 
> too much of a problem, but when daylight comes in from a window, your 
> measurements WILL be different. I haven't noticed a difference from 
> media, so I'm not sure if that has as much effect as the ambient 
> light getting in around the edges of the spectro.
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.