is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners?
2007-06-30 by djon43
Is any "white" rag paper theoretically as long-lived as "natural" rag paper? How did it get to be white, if not with inherently-transient whitener and neutralizer? John
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is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners?
RE: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners?
2007-06-30 by Alan Kearney
John, I'm no expert in paper but I've been told that ANY paper that's really White probably has Optical Brighteners in it. Some of the supposedly better White papers will also have "buffers" in the mix to keep the "brighteners" from fading away "too fast", key words being "too fast". There are some excellent papers on the market that have neither OB or buffers in them, are 100% rag, and long lived. Try Hahnemuhle German Etching or Crane Museo Silver Rag, both are free of OB and 100% rag and archival. if you like a bit of "tooth" (texture) in your print try the German Etching, as the Museo is a Luster paper. I've printed B&W to both and the German Etching really makes the image "pop"! Printer - Epson 4800 Pro, K3 ink. Hahnemuhle German Etching - I used MK black but web site claims either MK or PK. Museo Silver Rag - use PK ink. Both companies supply profiles, which I'm very happy with. Printed using Advanced Black & White in the Epson driver. Good luck, Alan _____
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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djon43 Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 7:47 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners? Is any "white" rag paper theoretically as long-lived as "natural" rag paper? How did it get to be white, if not with inherently-transient whitener and neutralizer? John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners?
2007-06-30 by Jim Doyle
Alan Just a FYI Hahnemuhle German Etching Has some OBA�s in it.. The Hahnemuhle Museum Etching paper does not have any.. Ever paper should have a spec sheet so my suggestion would be to get it and read it! Cheers Jim Doyle Shades Of Paper 600 Deer Rd Unit 4 Cherry Hill NJ 08034 856-795-7780 www.shadesofpaper.com _____
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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Kearney Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 2:56 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners? John, I'm no expert in paper but I've been told that ANY paper that's really White probably has Optical Brighteners in it. Some of the supposedly better White papers will also have "buffers" in the mix to keep the "brighteners" from fading away "too fast", key words being "too fast". There are some excellent papers on the market that have neither OB or buffers in them, are 100% rag, and long lived. Try Hahnemuhle German Etching or Crane Museo Silver Rag, both are free of OB and 100% rag and archival. if you like a bit of "tooth" (texture) in your print try the German Etching, as the Museo is a Luster paper. I've printed B&W to both and the German Etching really makes the image "pop"! Printer - Epson 4800 Pro, K3 ink. Hahnemuhle German Etching - I used MK black but web site claims either MK or PK. Museo Silver Rag - use PK ink. Both companies supply profiles, which I'm very happy with. Printed using Advanced Black & White in the Epson driver. Good luck, Alan _____ From: HYPERLINK "mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com"DigitalBlackandWhit-e ThePrint@-yahoogroups.-com [mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com"DigitalBlackandWhit-e ThePrint@-yahoogroups.-com] On Behalf Of djon43 Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 7:47 AM To: HYPERLINK "mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com"DigitalBlackandWhit-e ThePrint@-yahoogroups.-com Subject: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners? Is any "white" rag paper theoretically as long-lived as "natural" rag paper? How did it get to be white, if not with inherently-transien-t whitener and neutralizer? John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/880 - Release Date: 6/29/2007 2:15 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/880 - Release Date: 6/29/2007 2:15 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners?
2007-06-30 by Alan Kearney
Jim, thanks for pointing this out. Before I sent the first email I looked on the box the roll came in, it says "Natural White Pulp". I got the info sheet out and there is no mention of OBA's. I finally went to the Hahnemuhle web site and had to hunt there to find a fact sheet where OBA's were mentioned at all! And yes, the Museum plainly states (without having to dig for it:) that it has NO OBA's! No wonder the images "popped" like they did! Guess I'll have to try the Museum paper when I run out. Thanks again, I'd hate to be the source of false information! Alan
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> Alan > > > > Just a FYI Hahnemuhle German Etching Has some OBA's in it.. > > > > The Hahnemuhle Museum Etching paper does not have any.. > > > > Ever paper should have a spec sheet so my suggestion would be to get it > and > read it! > > > > Cheers > > > > Jim Doyle > > > > Shades Of Paper > > 600 Deer Rd Unit 4 > > Cherry Hill NJ 08034 > > 856-795-7780 > > www.shadesofpaper.com
Re: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners?
2007-07-01 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 6/30/07 2:56:34 PM, alan_kearney@... writes: > Try Hahnemuhle German Etching or Crane Museo > Silver Rag, both are free of OB and 100% rag and archival. > Hmmm... German Etching is not a Rag paper, its a neutralized wood pulp paper. And its specs list, under "special features": "optical brighteners". What makes it highly desirable is the very tight surface, thats really a characteristic of it being a wood pulp, not a cotton rag, paper. Silver Rag, in the other hand, is both cotton rag based, and non-whitened. However its one of a very special group of new papers made to resemble a particular type of classic photo paper. The cotton in it has been very heavily calendared, and resembles a piece of cardboard more than a sheet of watercolor paper (necessary for the type of coating that is used), while the front is coated with a rather slick, almost sticky coating to produce the deep blacks, bright colors, and glossy surface its known for. Great stuff, but again, not in the usual cotton rag paper category. So its a bit deceptive to list these two papers for someone looking for an unwhitened cotton rag; they are both great papers, but neither is really in the category in question. Entrada Natural, and a few other unwhitened rag papers, are more the norm for that, but any of them, while looking reasonably white on their own, do take on a bit of a creamy cast when placed next to a whitened paper such as Entrada Bright. Thats your eye adapting to the brightest white in its field of vision. Remove the artificially brightened white from your field of vision, and the problem goes away. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners?
2007-07-01 by Alan Kearney
Toby, thanks for the corrections! Very well stated. I'll make sure to do much more research before commenting on a product. Alan _____
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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of CDTobie@... Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 5:02 PM To: alan_kearney@...; DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] is ANY cotton/rag white without whiteners? In a message dated 6/30/07 2:56:34 PM, alan_kearney@ <mailto:alan_kearney%40sbcglobal.net> sbcglobal.net writes: > Try Hahnemuhle German Etching or Crane Museo > Silver Rag, both are free of OB and 100% rag and archival. > Hmmm... German Etching is not a Rag paper, its a neutralized wood pulp paper. And its specs list, under "special features": "optical brighteners". What makes it highly desirable is the very tight surface, thats really a characteristic of it being a wood pulp, not a cotton rag, paper. Silver Rag, in the other hand, is both cotton rag based, and non-whitened. However its one of a very special group of new papers made to resemble a particular type of classic photo paper. The cotton in it has been very heavily calendared, and resembles a piece of cardboard more than a sheet of watercolor paper (necessary for the type of coating that is used), while the front is coated with a rather slick, almost sticky coating to produce the deep blacks, bright colors, and glossy surface its known for. Great stuff, but again, not in the usual cotton rag paper category. So its a bit deceptive to list these two papers for someone looking for an unwhitened cotton rag; they are both great papers, but neither is really in the category in question. Entrada Natural, and a few other unwhitened rag papers, are more the norm for that, but any of them, while looking reasonably white on their own, do take on a bit of a creamy cast when placed next to a whitened paper such as Entrada Bright. Thats your eye adapting to the brightest white in its field of vision. Remove the artificially brightened white from your field of vision, and the problem goes away. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@colorvision <mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com> .com www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]