Digital BW, The Print

Hi everyone,
I' ve just tried to split printing and I'm wondering wich is the right way to achieve good 
results, comparable to the one with dedicated icc (for neutral prints):
If I work in Rgb and I edit curves to colorize -> split toning my images, when I print I have 
bad results, cause my blacks become too dark and I'm not able to match print and monitor.
Which is the right procedure ? I don't color manage the files, I leave it in rgb, is it a mistake?
May I use qtr to  make curves neutral and toned ( so I can mix them together to reach 
different degrees of toning) with ut3d or they are supposed to be used only through ps?
And, in the end, if I can use qtr could you tell me the right steps to get good results
( I mean, I think it's not enough to profile and make curves but it's necessary to find wich ink 
to be set as a toner...)

thx a lot to everyone

sab

To get neutral tone you could create two curves for QTR, one for cool, 
one for warm tone, then mix them with "Curve blending" controls until 
you get tone that you feel is neutral. In my opinion it is easier than 
producing a "neutral tone" curve. In addition you could create any 
number of "toned" curves, and then mix them as you like. Check "Split 
tone curve blending" and you could change proportions separately for 
shadows, midtones and highlights. If you have printer with extra slot, 
you could add sepia toner from UT7 and profile it to sepia curve. I am 
not using UT3D LK ink at all, so in my 2200 I have an extra slot.

Too bad that QTRgui doesn't permit to save/load the curve mix setup...

--Sergei

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "arcibombolina" 
<sabenel@...> wrote:
>
> Which is the right procedure ?

Sergei Antonov wrote:
> Too bad that QTRgui doesn't permit to save/load the curve mix setup...
> 

If you're on a PC there's Presets on the View menu which does this. 
Don't know if there is an equivalent for Mac.

Howard

--
Howard Shaw
www.howardshaw.org

Hmm, indeed. Thanks, Howard! 

I think it should be more visible and not in the same dark corner 
as "skins". And it is definitely doesn't belong to "View" menu...

--Sergei

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, Howard Shaw 
<glassman@...> wrote:
>
> Sergei Antonov wrote:
> > Too bad that QTRgui doesn't permit to save/load the curve mix 
setup...

> > 
> 
> If you're on a PC there's Presets on the View menu which does this. 
> Don't know if there is an equivalent for Mac.
> 
> Howard
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Sergei Antonov" 
<antonovsergei@...> wrote:
>
> To get neutral tone you could create two curves for QTR, one for 
cool, 
> one for warm tone, then mix them with "Curve blending" controls until 
> you get tone that you feel is neutral. In my opinion it is easier 
than 
> producing a "neutral tone" curve. In addition you could create any 
> number of "toned" curves, and then mix them as you like. Check "Split 
> tone curve blending" and you could change proportions separately for 
> shadows, midtones and highlights. 

Actually, I started to follow the procedure as outlined above, but 
found that not convenient. This is what I do (using QTR, windows, epson 
2100, UT3D): 

First I create a cool and a warm curve (involving only three inks 
each). Next I create a selnium curve with for the LK tones a mix of 
cool and warm LK and the selenium toner for the LLK tones the selenium 
toner. Finally I create a neutral curve that is mainly a hybrid of the 
warm and cool curves, but on some papers (recently I did Photo Rag) I 
add a bit of selenium toner to get it dead neutral (fractional Lab a 
and b values). 

In QTR you can easily do the split toning with the slider menu. Perhaps 
in theory you don't need a neutral curve, but in practice it's very 
handy.

But while writing this I realize you made a worrying remark about not 
color managing your files. You must get into the details of that to get 
your workflow right. There are several ways to do but in short this is 
mine:
- I edit the file in PS2 as 16 bit RGB file, adding adjustment layers 
to get the desired result
- After editing, I flatten the file, convert it to an 8 bit Gray LAB 
profile (the color space that QTR assumes).
Of course your monitor should be calibrated.

Joost

> First I create a cool and a warm curve (involving only three inks 
> each). Next I create a selnium curve with for the LK tones a mix of 
> cool and warm LK and the selenium toner for the LLK tones the selenium 
> toner. Finally I create a neutral curve that is mainly a hybrid of the 
> warm and cool curves, but on some papers (recently I did Photo Rag) I 
> add a bit of selenium toner to get it dead neutral (fractional Lab a 
> and b values). 
> 
> In QTR you can easily do the split toning with the slider menu. Perhaps 
> in theory you don't need a neutral curve, but in practice it's very 
> handy.
> 

I'll try this workflow, it seems a bit hard to me, but sounds good

> But while writing this I realize you made a worrying remark about not 
> color managing your files.

Yes, I mean if I want to print through photoshop, as ut3d are meant to
do (if I'm not wrong), and I want to split tone my images as shown
here : http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Split_tone.pdf
I need to work in rgb and print it as an rgb image, and here are my
doubts : I'm not able to achieve the split toning without altering
totally the luminosity of the image (when I print) (it gets deeply
darker), so I assume I'm making some big mistake, but where???

thx again

sab

>...I want to print through photoshop, as ut3d are meant to
> do (if I'm not wrong),

Well, it was hoped that a color profiling system would be able to
control the inkset and allow control more in line with a color workflow.
Unfortunately, the results with that workflow were a little less useful
than I'd hoped for.

As a practical matter, curves, either in Photoshop or a rip like QTR,
are the best way to control the inkset.

>  I want to split tone my images as shown
> here : http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Split_tone.pdf
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Split_tone.pdf>
> I need to work in rgb and print it as an rgb image,

The curves are clearly RGB curves that need to be applied to an RGB
file.  However, it's a gray scale file that is converted to RGB, and the
colors are false colors in the workflow I use.

> and here are my doubts :

> I'm not able to achieve the split toning without altering
> totally the luminosity of the image (when I print) (it gets deeply
> darker), ...

The very simply curves I used in the example above will only work if
mild.  If they are pushed too far they will affect the ramp.

For most split tones I've done I use a carbon curve for the warm.  This
is the easiest curve to make because it's just one channel.  Then I
usually have a neutral or cool curve for the other end.  Both of these
curves are, ideally, made carefully enough that they result in a linear
output.  Then I use selections to determine which goes where and how
much.

Note that most of the split tones people talk about here are single
curves that simply have warm highlights and cool shadows, or the like.  
A split that is between selection areas can't be done by QTR.  Photoshop
curves and IJC are the two workflows I've used for these types of split
tone printing.

Hope this helps.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>



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